Talk:African American culture

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Good article African American culture has been listed as one of the Social sciences and society good articles under the good article criteria. If you can improve it further, please do. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can delist it, or ask for a reassessment.

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To-do list for African American culture: edit · history · watch · refresh

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Comments From ACID:

  • There are a couple of us working on getting this article up to WP:FA status. We've been working on improving the overall content and going through suggestions from two peer reviews but there's still quite a bit of work to do before this article is ready for a featured article review. There are some scope issues that need researchers but mostly it's copyediting and style issues. --CJ 01:31, 7 October 2007 (UTC)
  • THis must be a FA. Marlith T/C 21:13, 9 October 2007 (UTC)
  • I see no reason at all why this article should not be featured as it fits the main criteria imo of other featured articles and there are very few flaws.Taharqa 21:44, 9 October 2007 (UTC)
  • Find an image to add to the lead section.
  • Find an image to use in the fashion section.
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Contents

[edit] Passed GA

Although user Ravpapa does not seem to have followed wikipedia guidelines for conducting a GA review, and has not updated either the WP:GAC or the article's talk page with the fact that he has passed the article for GA status, his GA review still technically counts since he does not on my brief examination seem to have been a major contributor to the article. I think it is unfortunate that his GA was so brief and uncritical (I came here to review the article myself and thought it worthy of a pass but had several criticisms that could be used to move the article forward) and I think the article authors should seek a peer review or similar to get more feedback on improving the article since there is still much work that can be done to improve it (it is nowhere near ready for FA status yet, for example). Given all the above, I will mark the relevant pages as the GA review having been successful - congratulations! - but suggest a peer review might be helpful to improve the article further if this is the author's wish. Many thanks - PocklingtonDan (talk) 20:19, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

Well, I submitted the article for a peer review ages ago and managed to get one response. But another will have to wait until I've had an opportunity to do more research. Or until someone else steps up to contribute. CJ 12:20, 6 July 2007 (UTC)
Did a quick reading of the first few sections and made a few changes. Pretty superficial in places. A lot of it reads like "AA Culture" by Cliffs Notes. Sorry, but it doesn't evidence, generally, a nuanced understanding of our history or much perspective when mentioning individuals (w/regard to their relative importance -- such as singling out Nikki Giovanni and James Brown). Needs much work -- preferably by someone black, by someone who's much more familiar with some of the periods treated herein. Me -- I've got deadlines, but I may return to this one. deeceevoice 10:07, 11 August 2007 (UTC)
The thing is that African American culture is vast. It contains multitudes. This is a single encyclopedia entry, not the complete collection of infinite knowledge. But I'm a computer programmer, not a historian. If you think there's something specific that can be changed please make a suggestion. I'd especially like to know what nuances you're thinking of that I'm not familiar with. Oh by the way, I happen to be Black. CJ 01:11, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

I'm just seeing your note. (I don't come by here much.) Well, it's good to have you working on this piece. You should have seen the first effort. Just awful 8O ![1] I suppose it could be deleted, but I actually kind of like having the edit history around. It's a pretty potent example of the project's systemic bias and just how bad things can be here. ;)

About nuances, I've made a few changes and corrections in that regard -- but I think that's basically because I'm probably older than you and may have a greater depth of understanding of certain elements or time periods, or history. And maybe not! After all, articles are works in progress, and someone likely will come behind me and change/challenge something I've included as well.

Still, this is head and shoulders above what was, and I appreciate your efforts. Peace, CJ. deeceevoice 21:48, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

Thanks. I just did what I could. Thanks for your efforts as well. CJ 01:19, 3 October 2007 (UTC)

Oh. One question -- about the "importance" ranking. I'm not exactly sure I understand it, but I urge you to take another look at "Blackface" -- particularly the section dealing with darky iconography and the material dealing with world popular culture. Blackface's impact is pervasive, deep and broad-ranging, and the article itself has been cited several times on the Internet and may still be (it was at one point) among the most frequently accessed Wiki articles on the Internet. (In fact, the term "darky iconography," which I used in the article to refer to the phenomenon now seems to be a common term.) I'm not invested in the ranking -- indeed, again, I'm not sure I even understand it; it's not about ego. But it seems to me that, because of blackface's groundbreaking role in the dissemination of African-American culture, in the way black people have been portrayed and perceived worldwide, and the precedent it set in terms of exploitation and cultural appropriation of African-American cultural expression, I think the subject matter deserves a more than "low importance" rating. Just MHO. Bless. deeceevoice 22:00, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

If you think it should be changed then just change it. I'm not the queen goddess of the importance rating. If someone disagrees then they'll change it and start a dialogue. CJ 01:19, 3 October 2007 (UTC)
Well, certainly you're not, CJ. But as a courtesy, I thought I'd raise it with you -- particularly since, as I've stated, I'm not really familiar with the "importance" rating. Also, some may think I'm too close to the subject to be objective -- and they may be right! So, IMO, I thought it best to start a dialogue beforehand. Your thoughts? deeceevoice 02:46, 3 October 2007 (UTC)
Your courtesy is appreciated but not necessary. This conversation is kind of off topic for here but I'll state my opinions on the assessment talk page. CJ 12:58, 3 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Art

I don't have the time at the moment, so I'm just throwing out some info off the top of my head in case other editors can follow up before I can find the time. Joshua Johnson/Johnston was an early portrait artist of the early (to mid?) 1800s. His works hang in the National Gallery of Art and elsewhere. Horace Pippin is another early (but later than Johnston) painter. There are also a handful of primitive painters (whose names escape me; it's not a genre I'm that familiar with/fond of) who probably should be mentioned. And then there is the quilting tradition. I'm thinking the ladies of Gee's Bend would merit mention in a section on quilts. There's another Johnson who comes to mind as a naif painter. His first name escapes me. He was half-white, went insane, died in poverty. Married a white woman, went to Europe. (Ring a bell -- anyone?) Anyway, I know this article can't include everyone, but I'm thinking those should be mentioned in some way. Division of "art" into subcategories -- painting, sculpture, textiles -- might facilitate a more in-depth treatment of these areas and inclusion of other more important artists. Oh. And a separate section on black theater. (In fact, that's something that probably should go on the article "to-do" list (African American theater -- if it doesn't already exist). Peace. deeceevoice 19:17, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

("Moments of the Sun" quilt. I forget who sewed it or which museum it's in.) deeceevoice 04:37, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

Another thought. Also under painting, some mention should be made of the Highway Men, a school of often itinerate, largely self-taught Florida landscape artists. I'm thinkin' '40s timeframe was their heyday? deeceevoice 00:09, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

It was bugging me, so I googled it. William H. Johnson. Very well known.[2] deeceevoice 04:37, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

--- Highway Men? Wow, never learned about that in any of my art hisry class! Lemme see if I can find some links.

  • [3]
  • [4] (My grandma has one like some of these... but it's from Ghana... )
  • [5]
  • [6]

This is an amazing topic... Did you know I'm an artist? futurebird 00:25, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

What about Harriet Powers? She was born a slave and her quilts are famous, but only two exist today.link to her bio One is called the Bible quilt and is in the MFA Boston museum. The other one is in the Smithsonian, I think.Jeeny 07:42, 5 October 2007 (UTC)
Just found a wiki article on her. It needs some work. Jeeny 07:44, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Rough version

The Highwaymen, a loose association of 26 men and 1 woman from the Ft. Pierce created idyllic, quickly realized images of the Florida landscape and peddled some 50,000 of them from the trunks of their cars. In the 50s and 60s, it was impossible to find galleries interested in selling artworks by a group of unknown, self-taught African Americans[1], so they sold their art directly to the public rather than through galleries and art agents. Rediscovered in the mid-1990s, today they are recognized as an important part of American folk history.[2] Collecting Highwayman art has become an exciting, but often expensive, hobby. The market for an original work of art by a Highwayman can easily bring $5,000 or more. Some of the Highwaymen who are still living have resumed painting to meet the continuing demand for their work.[3] Artists include: James Gibson, MaryAnn Carroll, Livingston Roberts, Roy McLendon, and Alfred Hair.[4]

This has references but needs work before we put it in.

  1. ^ Painting Florida
  2. ^ The Highwaymen By Ken Hall
  3. ^ Florida Highwaymen Artists
  4. ^ FloridaHighwaymen.com
You're so industrious, fb. :) Yep. They used really cheap materials -- usually Masonite rather than canvas. They certainly deserve a separate article. deeceevoice 04:37, 5 October 2007 (UTC)
There was a fascinating article about the Highwaymen in American Legacy a few years ago. It's posted here and here, both part of a bigger site about the Highwaymen artists. — Malik Shabazz (Talk | contribs) 06:02, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

I created stub with this information here: The Highwaymen (artists) futurebird 12:07, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] African American art

In order to keep this article from becoming too bloated I'm going to go and try to work the information on the highway men and Powers in to the African American art. This article should present a summary of whatever's in the African American art article. (I keep linking to it, because if you go there you'll find it's very short! futurebird 11:47, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] October 2007 Peer Review

I've gone through most of the suggestions provided by the automated peer review and there are only a couple left that need other eyes. The lead needs to be expanded and the article needs to be checked for improperly placed references. They should typically be after the punctuation mark. The most important thing left though is copyediting. I'm submitting this article to ACID in hopes that more than the few of us who are actively editing the article can get some help. CJ 01:22, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Copyediting/corrections, critiques and some suggestions

Please check my latest edits. They are examples of what I mean by a "nuanced understanding" of AA culture. Some of the stuff is just flat-out incorrect, and often I think it is a result of imprecise, perhaps too-general writing rather than a lack of knowledge. These sorts of issues are throughout the document -- like the lead saying AA culture began in America, like saying "Lift Ev'ry Voice" is about American patriotism; it isn't, and it never was. It's "the Negro National Athem" -- as in a (then nascient) black nationalism) -- not "a Negro version of the American National Anthem." And the fact is many of us flat-out refuse to sing the American National, preferring instead an expression of solidarity with the race. And that's how it's traditionally been sung, even when sung in addition to the ANA.

In many cases, I know the writer(s?) know better; it's simply an issue of someone going through and really critically reading the text for what it actually says and correcting it to what is intended. And I'm sorry, but I simply don't have the time.

Also, I have some issue with the photos. They seem to give the impression that AA culture is only AA culture if it blatantly mirrors or mimics in some way African culture, and that is just not the case. How many African-Americans actually engage in African drumming with African instruments? Not many. How many African Americans weave kente cloth? None that I'm aware of. And how many AAs wear traditional dress? Relatively few. I think there are probably better photos available, and the section on dress needs to involve more than traditional African dress.

AA culture has had a tremendous influence on the mainstream fashion industry and on style, generally -- and that was before FUBU and Baby Phat, Diddy's stuff, etc. -- which isn't mentioned here, either. It really needs expansion. And there should be mention of the cool aesthetic in this regard as well. AA style also has influenced the accessories market forever. For better or worse, we as consumers, we drove shoe market trends for ages -- and possibly still do; I don't know. And with color -- particularly in men's fashion. Same thing now with purses, etc. Same thing with hair -- the jagged, asymmetrical parts in hair, etc.

And you can't do AA culture without hair. You can't do AA culture without a subsection on oral tradition, from sermons to rap and other spoken-word artists.

Sorry I have more commentary to offer than actual words on the article page, but it's just about all I can do at the moment. I've been doing this hit and miss in bits and pieces -- and I know that's inadequate. Maybe later.... Peace. deeceevoice 13:44, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

Great work on everything. Seriously. And great suggestions on other information to add. Especially pictures. The ones that are there are what I could find on my own. And they definitely do represent my perspective because I am probably one of the few African Americans that does drum and does wear kinte. I have but one issue with one of your edits regarding Lift every voice and sing. The sources I acquired stated that James Weldon Johnson wrote the song to express patriotism. I'm going to do some looking into sources that specify that it isn't typically viewed that way today. But both the author's perspective and the modern perspective should be included. Especially because the sources do state what the author's perspective was.
Also, I understand what you meant by a nuanced understanding of African American culture but please understand what I meant by African American culture is vast. My nuanced understanding is not your nuanced understanding. My upbringing in the African American Military community was very patriotic. Even the Negro National Anthem was patriotic because it was a celebration of the sacrifices of our ancestors that brought us the freedom we enjoy today that we wouldn't necessarily enjoy in other countries. And if we needed a reminder of the alternative we only had to look over towards the Iron Curtain or better yet South Africa. So when I see you say that other authors lack a nuanced understanding of African American culture, I see that as you saying I, the primary author of the article, don't know my own culture. That's offensive. You might as well have called me an oreo. The reality of the situation is that culture is something that's very different for each individual and it's difficult to write about the vastness of something that's so personal and still maintain summary style. That's why it's so important to work together on this article, so that we can accurately present the various perspectives on our culture to the world.
I did a lot on my own. But I know that the article wouldn't be complete without other perspectives. That's why I spent so much time asking for others to get involved with the article. That's why I backed off of it for so long. I appreciate the hard work you've put into this article. You might not believe it but it's true. There are plenty of things I didn't think of to add. But that doesn't mean that I'm some how less of a black person and therefore less worthy to edit this article because I forgot to add a section on natural hair (btw I have an Afro) or oral tradition (raised by a COGIC preacher too). You might not think you were being offensive but that's how it came across. Just like what I said before wasn't intended to be offensive but that's obviously how it came across to you. So please, try to be a little less condemning of other people's contributions just because they didn't think of everything that you did. That's how this thing is supposed to work isn't it. Several people bring little pieces to the table to make a complete thing?CJ 15:17, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

What I meant by nuanced understanding is emplified by the LEV example. And, no, it has nothing with being an "oreo" or being less of a black person. That's your take on my comments. It's about a broader, deeper understanding of the facets of something rather than what may appear to be true on the surface. (Like an earlier comment I corrected about the ring shout being somehow invented by African Americans to circumvent the ban on dancing in church.) The fact of the matter is that a lot of black folks are anti military and anti patriotism. I, for example, have refused to stand up and say the Pledge of Allegiance for 40 years, and I always counsel black folks not to join the military or to let their children join. We come from completely different perspectives, and mine is a strong one (certainly not fringe or marginal in any way) in the African American community -- and growing.

E.g., years ago Jennifer Holliday (the sister who starred in the first Broadway verion of "Dream Girls") was at an MLK observance here in D.C. She was not known for "radical" political views or anything of the sort. The program called for her to sing the "National Anthem" (meaning "Oh, say can you see....") and then later "Lift E'vry Voice." She stood up, smiled and said something to the effect that she never sang the American national anthem and considered the second to be her/our national anthem. And that's what she said she was going to sing -- and only that one.

The audience burst into applause and laughter, and we all sang the rousing choruses of LEV. She endeared herself to the crowd that day.

Later on, the program it called for Holliday to sing LEV. When the proceedings got to that point, she rose, chuckled and said, "I guess we'll do it again."

And that's exactly what we did. LEV. Again.

That sort of thing is common in the circles I travel in. Now, keep in mind this ceremony was attended by black city council members, black professionals and drylongso black folk as well, of every age. This wasn't some demographically skewed segment of the AA community.

I'd be very interested in seeing the language in the source you quote about Johnson's patriotic intent in writing LEV. (I very quickly skimmed the online sources in the article and found nothing -- though that's not to say I couldn't have missed it; that's entirely possible). Again, there is absolutely nothing in the lyrics which speaks to America as a nation, and I've never, ever seen (though, admittedly, I haven't researched the literature specifically on the subject), heard or read such an interpretation -- which seems amazingly far-fetched. In all my years of hearing and singing the LEV myself, I've never considered it patriotic in an American context; I've accepted it for what it is -- a declaration on the struggles of black people and our need to persevere through trials and tribulations.

I ask for the language because -- and I don't mean to insult or condescend here -- what someone brings to a passage can color what one comes away with. Perhaps, someome coming from a less politicized background/orientation, less nationalist, more mainstream perspective (meaning white, American perspective, because I would argue mainstream African American culture doesn't see the song as an expression of red-white-and-blue patriotism) -- or a military orientation -- might automatically assume a patriotic intent because of its acquired subtitle ("national anthem"). It may also be, too, that a younger person, not exposed to Jim Crow and how it was back in the day, may, therefore, be somewhat more assimilated (bleh! -- not a perfect word, but the only one that comes to mind at the moment) into/inculcated with certain mainstream assumptions, which may have been projected on to Johnson -- a kind of jistorical revisionism. But to be honest with you, I really have no idea about all that. This is utterly foreign to me. I'm just trying to figure how where on earth that assumption/notion came from.... So, maybe you can enlighten me -- seriously.

In checking the book that Julian Bond did on the subject a couple of years ago, I saw nothing in the explication of the circumstances regarding Johnson's creation of the song that mentioned patriotism of any sort. So, if you have further information in that regard, I'd appreciate it if you'd offer it here.

Finally, correcting something, or changing something has nothing to do with being "condemning" of someone's efforts. I see that, unfortunately, you're continuing to make/take this personal -- and it isn't.

Thanks for your ongoing efforts. deeceevoice 15:57, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

I hate Wikipedia! For lots of reasons. But right now it's because it's keeping me from my deadlines. Anyway, I saw the link that mentions patriotism. I have to say it's flimsy. It's a throwaway add-on at the end of a short paragraph -- which comprises the entirety of the entry on the subject -- with no documentation whatsoever. And it's written as though the statement is an assumption/interpretation, rather than actual fact. Indeed, in Bond's book, which treats the song exclusively, there is no mention at all of American patriotism. I think this is not only extremely weak, but not substantiated by the song itself -- and certainly not by what appears to be more rigorous scholarship. Furthermore, the statement as written says black folks sing the song to express (American) patriotism. And that is certainly not true in my experience -- quite the contrary. Sorry, but for all these reasons -- and the fact that it's not essential to the article -- I'm deleting it. If you and/or someone else feels strongly about it, we can discuss it here. But reading that just plain pisses me off. deeceevoice 17:03, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

I accept your decision because I know it's weak. And until I can find one that's a better source then I'll just have to live with it. That's not a big deal to me at all. It's a problem I've run into many times before doing research on the African American community. Not enough documentation. I accept it as a fundamental truth and I work with it.
My problem is your attitude towards the work. Instead of saying, I changed this wording in A to match the sources and I removed B because I couldn't find a source to support it and I added this to C because I feel it's a more complete description. You come in and say I fixed A because someone didn't know what they were talking about and I pulled B out completely because I've never heard of it and I added stuff to C because even though I know the author knows better they just left this out. Do you understand the difference? I hope so because I'm really tired of this. It's keeping both of us from work and honestly it's making it very hard for me to contribute to this article. I'm making a big effort to step away from my more "playful" approach to conflict resolution so that you can see that I'm being very serious and not trying at all to offend you. I appreciate the efforts you've made and the things you've pointed out that I and others can work on to improve this article. You've brought material to the table that I simply hadn't considered or that I made a calculated decision not to include because of the length of the article. It's my hope that I can learn to understand your more abrupt dialogue and that you can learn to soften your phrasing to provide more constructive criticisim. If you'd like to know more about the aspects of the culture that I've been exposed to, for example the mindset of more patriotic African Americans, feel free to ask me at any time. I'm more than willing to share my experiences if you would like to hear them. I'd also like to at some point hear more about your experiences as a non-patriotic African American, something that I'm personally unfamiliar with. CJ 21:36, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

My dear sister, when I wrote that I knew the author(s) know better, I was giving them the benefit of the doubt. That remark was in reference to the phrasing in the article that AA culture began with slavery (or some such sentence) -- which is so incorrect I don't know where to begin. One of the struggles I've encountered repeatedly here on this website in virtually every AA culture-related article is ignorant white people who assume that we had no culture of our own when we came here and that everything -- blues, jazz, dance, etc.,etc. --has no African roots. The last thing we need is an article on our culture that states it "began with Africans held as slaves." IMO, there is no way this sentence can be correct. If one is speaking of absolute beginnings, the culture the Africans possessed had its origins in Africa, among free Africans -- not only among those held as slaves. If one is speaking of the point at which AA culture began to develop as an amalgam of African cultures on the continuum of the Maafa, then that began in the holding pens on the African coast and continued during the Middle Passage -- before our ancestors reached the Americas. That is, in part, what I meant by imprecise language. There are other instances as well, but I don't recall them at the moment. Again, the edit notes should give other examples.

When you speak of me the way in which I offer rationales for my edits, you must be pretty much referring to my edit notes, because I haven't posted a great deal here. Edit notes are, by their nature, brief. And my practice is to be direct. One pretty much has to be; the number of characters allowed for notes is limited. So, if something is incorrect, it simply is incorrect. That's what the edit notes are for -- briefly stating why something was done. If another party desires additional information, or if there is disagreement, then they can simply Google the info as a fact check, or come to this page. That's what this space is for. If someone has a problem with any of my edits -- as did another editor (whose name escapes me at the moment; his comments are on my talk page) or a question, or wants to discuss any of them, then I'm more than willing to engage them in discussion here.

CJ, I sincerely appreciate your offer to share, but I think there may be some misunderstanding of my comment about not hearing about something before with regard to LEV. Of course I've heard of red-white-and-blue patriotism among black folks. What I was referring to was I had never heard of that being either the reason Johnson wrote LEV, or why black people sing it. I mean black folks being lynched and exploited in, say, Tuscaloosa, Alabama, back in the day certainly weren't thinking, "God, I love this country, because it could be so much worse in the USSR (or South Africa)." What I meant was it seems to me that's a modern-day assumption/connection that simply doesn't hold up. And nowhere in the writings I've come across casually in the past, or, since reading the "patriotism" thing here and then referring to Bond's work -- which deals specifically and at leangth with the song and Johnson's state of mind, as well as his reaction to the response among AAs to his song -- have I read anything about American patriotism. And there is certainly nothing in the song that reasonably could lead someone to come to such a conclusion.

That's what I meant to say I'd never heard of. So, I'm thinking maybe you misunderstood?

Also, if there's something you'd like to ask me about my lack of "patriotism," I invite you to do so on my talk page. But I don't consider myself an American, and I never refer to myself, or other black people, as such. I'm a U.S. citizen, but an African-American. Sometimes I refer to myself as an African in America; however, that strikes me as somewhat of a presumption -- like Barack Obama calling himself an African-American. It's kind of correct -- but not really. Peace. deeceevoice 04:36, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

I added that last part about terminology, because I thought you had referred to me as an "American" -- when I see that you didn't. Still, I left it because it speaks, I suppose, in part to some of what we've discussed here. deeceevoice 04:46, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] It occurred to me

... that Jimmy Baldwin isn't mentioned anywhere here. We gotta fix that. The same can be said for writers like Killens, Sterling Brown (whose first major work was published during the Great Depression), George Schuyler (Harlem Renaissance), Jessie Redmond Faucett. Did someone mention Gwendolyn Brooks? Paule Marshall's hallmark "Brown Girl, Brownstones"? What about Terri Macmillan, whose works heralded a renewed interest in AA writers by mainstream publishers? Okay, okay. I know. Article length. I could probably list other really important writers as well. OMG. I'm thinking earlier now. William Attaway. Sorry. No time to go to the article and actually write this stuff. :((( Deadlines! Apologies!! deeceevoice 05:00, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

How about we trim it to 5 or 6 of the most notable individuals and put the rest into the sub articles to keep with the wikipedia policy on summary style. This article is already longer than what is recommended and is only going to get longer covering other areas. CJ 09:58, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

Yep. That's my thinking, too. But we have to mention Baldwin. Terri Macmillan came to mind because her arrival on the literary scene represents a turning point in mainstream publishing and black writers (for good and bad). But I wouldn't be able to live with myself if we failed to mention a more serious writer and put her in, so scratch that! deeceevoice 12:37, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Dance and Get down

Some depth could be added to this section w/regard to African roots of AA dance and how elements of AA dance have transformed mainstream vernacular and modern dance worldwide. The information provided at Get down (which also similarly could be benefited by incorporating the info at the AfD) and on the AfD page -- particularly the references cited -- here[7] should be particularly useful. That information also should be used to improve African American dance. deeceevoice 06:01, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Kudos and comments

Kudos to active editors on an excellent article. I thoroughly enjoyed it.

I just want to pass on one comment that this article is sounding more and more like History of African American Culture rather than modern day culture. Compare and contrast with Culture of the United States with indications on dominant influences within the culture would enable readers to relate to the mainstream Americana. Sections on Sports, Relationships, Death rituals, Gender roles, and Household arrangements could be incorporated to provide a comprehensive overview. There might be sub-articles on these, but pulling them together in this article would make this move from GA to FA, IMHO.

- RC 15:09, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

An attempt has been made to present modern elements alongside the origin of those elements. In my prior work on this article I injected some of my personal opinon that some individuals find it easy to believe that minority ethnic groups that don't have a cultural identity apart from the larger American idenity and anything else is meerly trends that are coincidental at best. Based on this I felt a greater need to indicate the history of African Amerian cultural traditions. But I think it would be benificial to ensure that every section expresses the modern culture.
The family section could be expanded to include information on relationships, gender roles and household arrangements.
I specifically did not include a sports section in the GA version because I didn't know how to write that section without it turning into a target for some fairly nasty stereotypes. Maybe someone else can.
Thanks for your input. CJ 18:35, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Article Misses the Point

OK, I think that the whole thing misses the point and is extremely culturally biased. It doesn't really discuss African American culture. It is a quasi cultural history of African Americans.

1.) Eveything about African American culture is not a direct relation to oppression. For instance..

"Generations of hardships imposed on the African American community created distinctive language patterns.

While that is indeed partially true, all people develop languages and dialects when they come in contact with other languages. The resulting dialect or pidgin,creole or patois may be in conflict or competition with the prestige language, but it is not necessarily a result of oppression. The article ignores the MAJOR contribution of West African languages in the development of Black English Vernacular. It only mentions that African language use was discouraged. Many cultures have acted to eliminate one language in favor of a prestige language. It attributes our venacular to being uneducated which is a linguistic myth.

2.) "Limited access to formal education strengthened African American oral traditions as a means of preserving history, morals, and other cultural information. Many of these cultural elements have been passed from generation to generation through storytelling..."

Is this really true? Did it strengthen a cultural tradition that dates back thousands of years? The oral tradition was merely continued. Once again, basing everything about us on our reaction to oppression and discounting the influence of the rich culture that we brought with us.

I think that it is cultural biased in that it attributes the entirety of our culture as arising from slavery and oppression. The fact is, we have a rich cultural history that endured despite slavery. The article ignores Black culture as it exists today. It ignores current music, art, literature, traditions, and family values.And those topics that are appropriate that it does touch, it mistreats. If you ignore those issues, are you really discussing culture? Rapidcycler 15:15, 10 October 2007 (UTC)


I think the there is a lot of truth in what you said. Your criticism of the tone of the article as well as the implicit, and sometimes expicit, lens through which its attention is focused rings true. It almost seems like this article was written in the early seventies or something, like the last 40 years never happened. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Fla2008 (talk • contribs) 22:50, 11 December 2007 (UTC)


I think your comments are too absolute; however, they have merit, and I've sought to address that salient point about the notion of our culture "arising from slavery and oppression" in my admittedly hit-and-miss copyediting of this piece and in my comments on the discussion page. (I still haven't actually read the article, just commented on things that jumped out at me after they'd snagged my eye. I inserted the word "values" specifically with the intent of returning to that issue and have alluded to current influences as well that need to be covered.
This is part of the problem I referred to above as language with a kernel of truth, but that is, when examined critically doesn't quite hold up to scrutiny; the writing is imprecise. What I have read often hasn't really gone down well, and some of it I've found really objectionable or, in a few cases, just flat-out incorrect. Still, many of these things are issues about which I don't think there is any argument, so if you've actually read the article -- and I really haven't -- then by all means make the changes, because I agree with you wholeheartedly. I'm juggling a series of really sucky deadlines at the moment, and I log on to Wikipedia only when I need brief breaks from the tedium. As a result, many of my "contributions" to this piece are more copyediting than serious editing, or to offer suggestions.
Suggestions and critiques though, like talk, are cheap/easy. Though they are appreciated and potentially highly constructive/instructive, it also helps to have people, like CJ and futurebird, who do the work of actually writing the article and research sources. And perhaps you've done so. I haven't checked the edit history. But if not, I urge you contribute to the article itself -- and to be bold. Judging from your comments, the article will be better for it.
Hopefully, I'll be able to return at some point and do some of that hard work myself in a week or two. Peace. deeceevoice 18:09, 10 October 2007 (UTC)
The thing that is difficult with talking about the African diaspora in general is that it's very difficult to deal with the effects of colonialism and slavery without making it seem like everything is because of slavery. But you can't just strip that bit out because it is partly true. If we had imigrated like other groups and not been denied access to education we would have probably been like most of western society with a stronger literary tradition than an oral one. Also, the sources that I've been able to pull from repetadely emphasise the effects of slavery, ancient african tradition, and blendings with western culture. That's what I've tried to carry here. If you can help by providing sources or cleaning things up so that they're accurate without overemphasising things then please do. That's the point of this being a collaberative effort. Thanks for your input. CJ 18:17, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

Not necessarily on that business about oral tradition. We've always been free to pretty much express ourselves in the arts. We haven't always been able to play certain venues, but music and dance have always been strong elements of AA culture. And we haven't taken wholesale to opera and clogging and yodelling and European classical music and white expressions of music and dance at the expense of our own indigenous cultural expressions.

Why? Because, while elements of those foreign art forms may appeal to some of us, our culture speaks to us, resonates within us, in ways those others do not. If there is anything our history has taught us, it is that culture is tenacious because people hold it close, in their hearts and minds and sensibilities -- regardless of outside influences or the lack thereof -- and they pass it on. Yes, being an embattled population in enemy territory in our case has played a role, but not, I would argue, a defining one.

The essential Africanness of our culture is all around us -- in the way women roll their eyes and suck their teeth, in the cornrows in our hair, in what we say and the way we say it -- not just AAVE, but in expressions as well. "Your eyes are bigger than your belly." It's what my people would tell us children when we couldn't finish the food we'd placed on our plates. "Big eye" is a phrase and symbol of greed in West African parlance and art. Old people talking about how "there are still some of us on this side of the river," when referring to those who have passed on. The Kalunga Line is an underwater meeting place, a line of demarkation and of communion between the living and the Ancestors. It's in the way we move -- getdown. In our preference for color -- and often so-called "loud" colors. It's the way polyrhythms permeate the way we not only dance, but walk, by the "jazz" of our visual expression (jagged lines, rather than straight, irregularity of form rather than linearity, improvisation, bold colors often of equal value -- polyrhythms/swing expressed graphically; you see jazz in our quilts, for God's sake!)

Laying the persistence of all about us that is African squarely at the feet of white oppression is far too facile and, IMO, displays a lack of understanding just how deep the river of Mother Africa flows within us as a people, how greatly we value it -- even unconsciously -- how much it feeds our resilience and creativity as a people. Our essential Africanness remains the antithesis to the thesis of white-bread American culture, and it continues to be through us that the synthesis of American (and now world) popular culture is continually rejuvenated, recreated and reinvented. deeceevoice 23:02, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

I'm not trying to say that everything is as a result of white oppression. We're actually on the same page. In spite of the deliberate attempts to destroy our culture we are still African. Using oral tradition as an example again. Slave owners thought that by denying us access to education that they would further oppress us. When in fact the African oral tradition in us was unaffected. In spite of their attempts we retained ourselves. Now maybe the problem is I'm not as good as expressing that as I thought. So please, if you can think of a better way to say it then please do. CJ 10:48, 11 October 2007 (UTC)


I think the there is a lot of truth in this observation [i.e. ARTICLE MISSES POINT]. It's a catagorical error and it's misrepresentation can be felt on a gut-level. Your criticism of the tone of the article as well as the implicit, and sometimes expicit, lens through which its attention is focused rings true. It almost seems like this article was written in the early seventies or something, like the last 40 years never happened. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Fla2008 (talk • contribs) 23:02, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

If you make a specific suggestion then we can work on fixing it. CJ (talk) 13:14, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Life Events

I've started a section called life events. Right now it only includes funerals mainly because it's the only subject matter where I'm pretty sure about what are Black traditions. It may need triming or expanding. The other part of the section needs to have info on traditions regarding births, formal and informal rights of passage, weddings, etc. Rights of passage is something I can work with but I'm pretty much stuck on births and weddings. I don't know off hand of any particularly different traditions that aren't just theming except for jumping the broom and I don't know how common that is anymore as I've been to at least a dozen weddings and only ever seen it once.

I'm also thinking that the music section could do with some information about Black Marching Band culture. I'm having a hard time coming up with sources that ammount to more than posturing but maybe my library trip tomorrow (watch check: 06:18, 13 October 2007 (UTC), er Today... maybe Sunday) will be productive. There's a book by Dr. Foster that I want to check out. It might be better to include it in a section on HBCU culture to include info on things like pan helenics and bands. Thoughts?

Anyhow. My bed misses me. Night CJ 06:18, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

These are RITES of passage.--Parkwells 02:04, 11 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Suite 101 link

When I proofread the page, the spam filter wouldn't let me save my changes without removing the following link:

<ref>{{cite web |url=http://african-american-playwrights.suite101.com/article.cfm/black_nativity_by_langston_hughes |title=Black Nativity by Langston Hughes: A Musical African-American Holiday Tradition |first=Sharyn |last=Skeeter |accessdate=2007-10-13 |date=[[2006-12-15]] |publisher=Suite101.com}}</ref>

I didn't add that link, I don't know anything about that link, and I don't know if it is spam, but the spam filter evidently considers it to be spam. Art LaPella 18:43, 14 October 2007 (UTC)

It's a reference about the Black Nativity. I added it back in. Thanks. CJ 19:20, 14 October 2007 (UTC)


It may be that everything at suite101.com is considered spam. I put in a request to have this page removed from the filter futurebird 19:38, 14 October 2007 (UTC)


[edit] predominant hair styles

I'm not asking because I think people are lying, I just don't know. Is straightened hair really still the predominant style? It's not in my experience, but that could just be a fluke. I think we need a source for this. Frankly I think we need more solid information on hair, because what we have now are some generalizations. futurebird 21:33, 14 October 2007 (UTC)

Most of my friends have straightened hair. Maybe the use of "predominant" needs to be changed to "some" or "many". Have you seen famous black women in the media? Many have silky straight, slightly wavy/bouncy hair. Example: Tyra Banks, Halle Barry, Beyonce, Iman, even Queen Latifah and many more I can't name right now, but see them in my head. lol. Jeeny (talk) 21:49, 14 October 2007 (UTC)
Many Black people go through life never knowing the style and beauty options natural hair offers. With over 60 percent of Black American women wearing their hair relaxed and an estimated 5 percent using a hot comb to straighten it, there are precious few natural-hair role models out there for visual consumption.
Ayana D. Byrd and Lori L. Tharps, Hair Story: Untangling the Roots of Black Hair in America (New York: St. Martin's Press, 2000) p. 162. ISBN 0-312-28322-9
http://www.amazon.com/Hair-Story-Untangling-Roots-America/dp/0312283229/
I don't know whether they include women with extensions in the 60%. — Malik Shabazz (Talk | contribs) 21:52, 14 October 2007 (UTC)
Malik I could kiss you. I was about to take it out because I couldn't find anything. CJ 22:02, 14 October 2007 (UTC)
I'm not sure that Mrs. Shabazz would approve. :=) Just trying to help. — Malik Shabazz (Talk | contribs) 22:14, 14 October 2007 (UTC)

I never take the media as a kind of "fact" for what people really do at home. Esp. for African Americans! But I think it's much better now that we have source. futurebird 22:24, 14 October 2007 (UTC)

I don't either, but I just was trying to show examples and didn't know how to convey the message without pointing out the women in the media. I don't know how old you are, but I'm not saying my age either...But what I say next, might give you an idea. I remember the mornings, when all us girls did each other's hair, with the hot combs on the stove burners. Also, I remember the braiding sessions in the evening for the males, so their "fros" would be big and fluffy in the morning. :p Jeeny (talk) 22:47, 14 October 2007 (UTC)
That doesn't date you as much as you think.
I put it there because I know it's true. I was still looking for a source when Malik found one. Pretty much every other source I found alluded to it but none explicitly said it. CJ 23:03, 14 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Note on References

Something I got from the last peer review. All the references should have at least the following, the publisher, the accessdate (if a url is included, the isbn (if it's a book). This helps people verify the sources. Especially if something can't be found because it went out of print or if a website changes or goes down.CJ 22:02, 14 October 2007 (UTC)

I'll try to do a better job of this, though I've dreaded using the curly "cite" tag. Thanks for fixing all of those references. futurebird 22:26, 14 October 2007 (UTC)
Here's an easy (well it looks easy, I haven't used it) tool to help formating refs. ref maker]. Jeeny (talk) 23:04, 14 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Black Nativity

I pulled the last line on the black nativity about the wise men being prominent members of the community. I haven't been able to find any sources that say that and it seems like a bit of an overgeneralization.CJ 22:14, 14 October 2007 (UTC)

Langston wrote the roles with no singing part, no difficult acting, and only a few lines, so that this could happen. I've seen it in productions of the play in Cleveland, NYC, and Philly. A touring company who does the production doesn't tour with actors for these roles because they are cast when they get to each city. Whoever wrote the wikipeia article on Black Nativity (not me) also mentions it. I wish we could find a source, because the way I understand it it's a part of the whole way the play is structured... I'll look around. futurebird 22:53, 14 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Fashion

Any suggestions on a picture to use in the fashion section? If we can find one, I'd like a picture of a woman dressed for church. Maybe someone could get a picture of the Mothers at church on Sunday. The only ones I've found so far that are free are old. I'm thinking something more recent and in color would be better. CJ 15:05, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

I agree. I've been looking for more contemporary images to bring this article up to date. futurebird 15:31, 15 October 2007 (UTC)
Here's a book that chronicles the fashion history from the 40s till now. I don't have a scanner that works, or I'd buy the book, but then I doubt the images would be free use anyway. Way We Wore Black Style. Jeeny (talk) 16:22, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

There is a Black fashion museum in DC. Would it be possible for someone from the area to take images? If so, would they then be free use, such as many other museum images on Wikipedia? Jeeny (talk) 16:51, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Islam section photo

I'd like to get a photo in the Islam section. I've got two. On the right a generic NOI. On the left, Keith Ellison, a Sunni. Thoughts? CJ 14:30, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

Go with the NOI one. That organization is far more prevelant to the topic. An image of Malcolm X would also be a good idea, but the NOI one is probably the best bet. Yahel Guhan 05:32, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] black jews and other black religions

How come nothing is stated in this article about other religions in black culture other than Christianity and Islam? Surely the other religions are important to black culture. Yahel Guhan 05:35, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

It's not that they aren't important. It's just that they're practiced by a very small percentage of the population. Christianity alone i think is over 95%. Islam is next in line. There is a section on Traditional African Religions. But maybe we could change that to be an Other, and make mention of other religions including the Black Jews. CJ 13:16, 20 October 2007 (UTC)
Considering the small number of African-American Jews, I wouldn't really characterize Judaism as an "important" part of Black culture. On the other hand, the self-identification of African-Americans with the Biblical Israelites enslaved in Egypt has been, I think, a strong influence on Black culture. I'm not sure whether discussion of it belongs in the section on religion, music, or whether it's just one of those things that just doesn't fit neatly in the structure of the article. — Malik Shabazz (Talk | contribs) 21:18, 20 October 2007 (UTC)
Theoretically it could go in the Christianity section since much of that identification is apart of the theology and tradition of the Black Church. I don't know how it applies to African Americans of other religions. CJ 23:47, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Homophobia

It seems this issue should be addressed herein. It's a big deal. Homophobia, brothers on the DL, prisons and the spread of HIV. "Thugs" involved in physical reltaionships with other men, but in denial. ("I ain't gay.") The black church. The Pentacostals and other socially conservative churches and their impact on the elections. Yolanda King (I believe) coming out in support of gay rights, other ministers -- not! deeceevoice 00:39, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

I remember putting a small mention of it in there. In the politics and social issues section. I had this source from the pew center that listed Blacks as severely more morally conservative than Whites. It's not that I want to minimize the issue, I don't. But I also don't want there to be more than a line or two on it here. There's a whole African American contemporary issues article that needs cleaning up and more detail can go in there. Shoot there's probably enough for an entire article on the DL. CJ 08:56, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

My bad. Didn't see it before I posted the note. And, no. It was never my intent that the subject be treated here in detail. After all, we have to keep article length in mind. Will check out the reference you mention later. Thanks. (I'm crunching deadlines and just took a Wiki break to relieve the tedium.) deeceevoice 10:34, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

I took another look at it and it turns out that it was a one word mention so I found another source and expanded on it a little. Basically pointing out that Blacks are by far more conservative on gay rights issues than Whites but there are those who support gay rights. Gotta love those deadlines. I'd be doing better with mine if they would stop making changes to the task.CJ 11:01, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Copyedit

A request has been made for this article to be copyedited by the League of Copyeditors. The progress of its reviewers is recorded below. The League is always in need of editors with a good grasp of English to review articles. Visit the Project page if you are interested in helping.
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[edit] Homecomings

Me again, butting in with another suggestion. I need to get to the work I've been procrastinating on all weekend, so I can't write it -- at least not right now. But I'm thinking we should mention homecomings -- the country church kind, not college. I suppose it could be mentioned under family reunions, because they're often timed to coincide with homecomings. deeceevoice 02:24, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

On second thought, maybe there could be a subhead on homecomings under "family" (a new "family" section that doesn't fall under the "issues" header). Right now, it seems to me the article takes the Moynihan approach of placing the black family squarely within in the context of "issues" as though, first and fundamentally, the essence of the subject is about controversy or some sort of pathology/abnormality. (I'm also wondering why "Names" is under the "issues" heading. Maybe some reorganization is in order here. Peace. deeceevoice 02:33, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

Nice idea. I don't know who moved names and family under issues and I don't know why. I'm moving them back out where they were. CJ 02:44, 5 November 2007 (UTC)
I haven't looked at the article in a while, but has anything been mentioned about the "Black Family Reunion(s)"?Google search of term We have one every year here, it's a three day event...lots of sponsers, parades, etc. ~Jeeny (talk) 02:54, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

I still haven't read the article in its entirety, so I'm honestly not certain, but my way of including family reunions was (above) suggesting that homecoming be included in a family section as part of family reunions. The whole family thing needs to be fixed -- if you haven't already done it, Jeeny. We can't let the only mention of black families be under a section called "issues"! deeceevoice 07:21, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] History

"From the earliest days of slavery, slave owners sought to exercise control over their slaves by attempting to strip them of their African culture. The physical isolation and societal marginalization of African slaves and, later, of their free progeny, however, actually facilitated, among Africans in the New World generally, and in the U.S. in particular, the retention of significant elements of traditional African culture."

This section and the one above it fail to mention how African-Americans, Blacks, Negros, colored people, mulattos (whatever term they were labelled by) were "invented" in the United States, which is specifically related to the development of a system of "racial" hypodescent here in the US - a child taking the status of the parent of lower status - in this case an enslaved African or a FPOC (free person of color).

It also makes the assumption - by omission that all Africans in America were enslaved (many of the earliest arrivals were indentured servants similar to their Irish counterparts, and there were a significant number of FPOC (Free People of Color) throughout the enslavement period, who, along with their descendents founded many enduring African-American institutions.

Those scholars who study the period of enslavement have also refuted the ideas of physical isolation of enslaved persons - since the majority of slaves held were not on large plantations, and worked in close connection with the whites who owned them, along with free poor whites and indentured white servants. Black codes were enacted to limit emancipation during the enslavement period, and to constrain the movement and job opportunities for FPOC. The institution of Jim Crow during Reconstruction served to define serarate communities and support the development of separate black institutions.

If "significant elements of traditional African culture" is to be mentioned (note the word culture should be cultures - plural) these elements should be spelled out. DeeOlive 11:03, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Black cultural movement

This section fails to include H Rap Brown as a major voice in SNCC though he is listed elsewhere in Wiki. Though perhaps it woukd be better to address the growth of black political movements in a different section. The "Black is Beautiful" concept is not mentioned either DeeOlive 11:11, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] African American literature

I think this section is too short, there is a lot of good sourced info here: African American literature. futurebird 19:06, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Under body type

Perhaps some mention should be made of barriers to black dancers in white dance academies and ballet, because it was felt that black body types were unsuitable for classical dance. Margaret Katherine Dunham should be mentioned in this regard, as well as Alvin Ailey and Geoffrey Cambridge Holder in terms of breaking new ground and opening doors for black dance artists. deeceevoice 04:55, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Other stuff

I'm not suggesting any of this be treated in depth, but some mention, I think, should be made of the following (if they're not already included):

  • Zora Neale Hurston was more than an author; she was an ethnographer. She did much to record and preserve our cultural heritage.
  • How much mention is there of the gichees/Gullah and the Sea Islands?
  • Perhaps there should be a list of groups active today in preserving AA culture: the quilters of Gee's Bend, Sweet Honey in the Rock, some of the groups that still do line singing, sweetgrass seagrass basket weaving.
  • What about "Slave Dave" the potter and face jugs and that whole tradition of ceramic work?
  • The blacksmiths and ironworkers of New Orleans?
I think that in keeping with summary style the art section needs to make sure it covers examples from a few key periods and styles and everything else needs to go into the African American art article. That means that not everything will get even a brief mention in this article. I'm not making any evaluations on what should get a mention and what should go into the other article. CJ 11:35, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Blues music

I think this article neglects utterly to discuss the importance of blues music in AA culture. Much inspiration can be taken from the featured blues article, origins of the blues and jazz. From this article it appears that blues was just a minor music style compared to jazz. I however wonder whether this is not due to the fact that jazz was more popular in the white segment of the population at the start of the 20th century. I think an article on the AA culture should give justice to this original creation of the AA community. Vb13:03, 2 January 2008 (UTC)