Talk:AFC Ajax

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Should we use the latest emblem instead of the old one? __earth 09:32, Apr 10, 2004 (UTC)

Contents

[edit] causes of succes

The success had two main causes: the highly disciplined coaching by Rinus Michels and the genius of Johan Cruijff.

i think the presence of Piet Keizer was also a main cause of the succes of Ajax, his genius was at least as big as johan Cruijff's

The causes of the success are personal, some will also say the money and influence of the chairman, or they may say players as Swart, Neeskens, Krol, Suurbier, Haan, Rep etc. so I think the part about the causes of the success should be deleted anyway. Ajox 17:42, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Rogier Pengel

User:Boyo added Rogier Pengel to the Current Squad list. Now I might be wrong, but I couldn't find him on the team lists on any of the websites listed here, so I removed the name. Can someone please confirm it, and add his name in the correct format, if it is to be added. Thanks -Aabha (talk) 20:27, 10 December 2005 (UTC)

The player doesn't exist, I think Boyo's own name is Rogier Pennel. I'm entirely sure he's not part of the squad. Ajox 17:40, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Ajax and Jewish influence

I started a section on this, because it is IMHO darn remarkable for a non-Israeli club to define itself so strongly over Jewish/ Israeli symbols. But I am definitely not an expert. A Wikipedian who is a Ajax fan could help. Onomatopoeia 02:31, 5 January 2006 (UTC)

Ajax played in Amsterdam's Jewish neighborhood when it was founded. Many away fans coming in by train on match day would see Jewish street vendors and merchants around the streets. So they referred to the team as "The Jews."

During the 1970s, anti-semetic chants such as "Joden, Joden" (Jews, Jews), and hissing noises to mimmick a gas oven being turned on were heard from away fans (especially arch-rivals Feyenoord).

Hardcore Ajax supporters (F-Side) started calling themselves Jews out of defiance, and using it as a sense of pride to deny away fans the chance of using it as an insult. Many suppoter's groups and fans have adopted logos with the Star of David and/or Hebrew writing on scarves, hats, shirts, etc.

--Jeffcole 03:21, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

It's not the club that identifies itself with Jews, just a part of the fanbase that identifies the club with Jews...it was originally the opponents calling Ajax like that, then it dissapeared for a while and reemerged with the F-Side. The club itself has asked the fanbase to stop this, since it provokes a lot of ugly and racist reactions from opponents, and scares actual Jews away. Kevinklop 23:58, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

I agree with Kevin entirely. The first paragraph of the section is highly debatable. Certainly, "Jews!"-slogan is a recent invention. Condescending use of the epitaph has been around a lot longer, unfortunately. In that light, the paragraph needs serious revision. Also, it would greatly benefit from mentioning last year's attempts by the club to reduce if not eradicate the slogans altogether . The club argued it was inappropriate and hurtful to many of the club's Jewish supporters, the statement must be out there on ajax.nl. Regardless of any of the above, hardcore Ajax supporters are not exclusively Jewish, neither currently nor historically, which is definitely worth mentioning in light of the symbols and slogans. Divad 12:08, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Sanjit Mallick??

Who is Sanjit Mallick and did he ever play in the Ajax first team??

Never heard of him, not referenced on any site. --211.27.109.13 10:04, 12 June 2006 (UTC)Hans

No feedback - removed him, Hans --210.50.117.87 01:40, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] History of Ajax

As an avid watcher of football, I think that the chapter 'History of Ajax' can be expanded (or even be made into a seperate article).

Do you guys agree or do you think that the sub-article as it stands now suffices? If not, I will try to expand the page somewhere next month - if someone hasn't beat me to it that is. Of course, if you prefer the current situation I'll hold back.

--Hyperzoanoid 19:14, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

All edits are welcomed =) __earth (Talk) 03:45, 21 May 2006 (UTC)


[edit] About Ajax

The club is historically one of the top-10 football clubs in the world (says the article)

Where says this? Who are the "historically one of the top-10 football clubs in the world"? --201.240.255.26 00:15, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

Its based on winning prices i think, since Ajax is one of three who won all big cups.

[edit] links

most of the site links are unofficial, there are many more good websites, like Ajax Foto Side

[edit] The name Ajax

Does anybody know how Ajax Amsterdam got the name "Ajax"? I looked up this question in yahoo.com and found out some sources indicating that the club was named after Telamonian Ajax, but I need a more credible confirmation.

DaDoc540 04:28, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

According to nl.wikipedia they were indeed named after the Greek mythology figure. Igorrr 11:22, 30 September 2006 (UTC)
The founders of Ajax named the team after the Greek hero, though I don't know why. I doubt if anyone knows... Ajox 17:35, 19 June 2007 (UTC)
In England are they not known simply as Ajax or Ajax Amsterdam. Never heard or seen them as AFC Ajax. Londo06 22:05, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
The official name is AFC Ajax since the start of the club in 1900. The most used name will always be just Ajax, but Ajax Amsterdam never (officially) existed. Since the article name Ajax is already taken because it refers to more articles then just the football club it's more logic to use the official name. Greetings, Ultras GE 22:21, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Historically top-10?

I don't like the phrase "The club is historically one of the top-10 football clubs in the world". While it can certainly be argued that this is true, one has to define a arbitrary way of comparing European and South American clubs. I think that it is best that the phrase is removed and replaced by either "in Europe" or a list of achievements. The current phrase certainly isn't encyclopedic. aLii 09:08, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

I've removed the wretched sentence. Igorrr 11:06, 30 September 2006 (UTC)
Rather than "top-ten", I would rather member their European Treble and three European Cup wins. These are unique accomplishments and I'm sure why they were removed. The Manchester United page has the Treble distinction listed. GoldDragon 02:36, 11 October 2006 (UTC)
Looks like I have inadvertently removed your edit while reverting the changes by two other users. This wasn't my intent, I apologize. Have meanwhile restored your paragraph. Igorrr 11:52, 11 October 2006 (UTC)
Well, Ajax is part of the G-14 and one of the most successful clubs in the world (if you look at the trophies Ajax won). I agree, you can't compare European and for example South American clubs, so I don't believe it should state "in the world". However, "in Europe" would be a proper way to say it. Guus Hoekman 03:55, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
Ajax is indeed part of G14, have won all the European trophies they could win, including four Champions Leagues/Europa Cup 1s and two World Cups. I think, because of that, you can state Ajax is one of the biggest football clubs in the world/Europe. Ajox 17:38, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Home colours

The article says that the home colours of Ajax, "white shorts and white shirt with a broad, vertical red stripe over chest and back" were "[l]oosely inspired by the kit of Arsenal." This is virtually impossible, because Arsenal only added the white sleeves in 1934, when Ajax were already playing in their current colours. See HistoricalKits.co.uk. Aecis Dancing to electro-pop like a robot from 1984. 13:49, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] My edits

As promised, I expanded the part of the history of Ajax. As you can see it's far from finished, but I'll continue tomorrow evening. Feel free to alter the spelling errors in the mean time :) Hyperzoanoid 01:10, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

Hello. Took the liberty to copyedit your additions, some grammar (contractions are not considered encyclopedic, for example), and took out the red linking to non-existing articles. Good job btw Razororz 14:56, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for your help. It seems like I'm going to need a day or two to finish the rest, so the last part of the section might seem a bit odd for now, but I'm on it. ;) Hyperzoanoid 00:46, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

Done (save for the hotlinking of some names and the grammatical/spelling errors/omitted words here and there). And now I can finally go to bed! Hyperzoanoid 01:30, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Notable Players

I'm from the Netherlands and Ajax Supporter, I don't see why some names are notable? Steven Pienaar for example? What did he do that is notable? And Tim de Cler, Fred Grim, Kiki Musampa, Marciano Vink, Arnold Scholten, Frank Verlaat, Martijn Reuser, Ivan Gabrich (for crying out loud), Jason Culina, Jelle van Damme, Tom Soetaers, Anastasiou, Anthony Obodai, Abubakari Yakubu, Georgi Kinkladze, Petri Pasanen, Ole Tobiasen, Wamberto, Boukhari, Babangida's, Christopher Kanu, Aaron Mokoena? What makes them 'notable' players. If these people are notable then I can think of many more players. 83.116.51.58 18:31, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

Indeed, some of the players on the list are just as notable as almost every other player who plays professional football. Can-o-Mark 00:44, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

Maybe we should change Notable Players in Internationals, selecting only players who have played at least one match for their national team. Ajox 10:42, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Ready for Re-Rating

I suggest this article is nominated for a good article Johny1407 09:55, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

History, Youth program, Rivalry, Stadium sections are not cited at all. Plus, as mentioned above, there is no criteria as to why those players are notable. Simply said, this article is not ready to be a Good Article.--Crzycheetah 23:00, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] One of the best in history

I just wanna know why people deleted the sentence The club is one of the most successful clubs in football history. What is wrong with that sentence? It is correct,Ajax IS one of the most successful clubs in football history. Bayern Munich for example have won the same amount of trophies and they are credited as one of the most succesfull in their article . So why shoudn't Ajax ? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by AFCA (talk • contribs) 00:09, August 24, 2007 (UTC).

I reverted you mainly because there was no concensus on the sentence as Sarcasmos deleted your comment. When that is the case the next step is to discuss it, like you are doing now. But instead of that you kept on adding the same sentence over and over again, that's just not how things work. Even me, as a Feyenoord fan agree with you that Ajax are one of the most successful clubs in football history, however it's still kind of an opinion and we are here to talk about facts. To claim this, a source is needed, OR...probably the location of the sentence should change, not in the opening sentence, but for instance like this:
Ajax is one of the five teams that has earned the right to keep the European Cup; they won consecutively in 1971-1973. In 1972, they completed The Treble by winning the Dutch Eredivisie, KNVB Cup, and the European Cup; to date they are the only team to keep the European Cup and accomplish the European Treble , also AFC Ajax are one of the only two teams (with Manchester United in 1999) to win the The Treble and the Intercontinental Cup in the same season/calender year, this was achieved in the legendary 1971/72 season [2]. They are also one of only three clubs (with Juventus and Bayern Munich) to have won all three major European trophies at least once (the European Cup, the European Cup Winners' Cup and the UEFA Cup). They were the first team to win what has become the UEFA Intertoto Cup [3]. Ajax has also won the Intercontinental Cup twice. This all together makes Ajax one of the most successful teams in football history.
Lets see if there are more people's opinions before adding the sentence back into the article. Knurftendans 05:35, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Suggest split

The page is now at 58kb. I don't think this is really excessive, but have we reached the point that we should consider splitting the history section to a separate article, History of AFC Ajax? That section could contain the entire history of Ajax; the history section of this article would then only give the main points (e.g. establishment, 1970s, 1992/1995). Any thoughts? AecisBrievenbus 22:25, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] which clubs won all european champoinships

in the ajax amsterdam article its mentioned in the 2nd paragraph that ajax, Juventus and Bayern Munich are the only 3 clubs to have won all european club competitions, the fact that spain's barcelona hav also done that is ignored. please take care of that mistake. Yasssir 00:44, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

Barcelona have won the Inter-Cities Fairs Cup, which is the predecessor to the UEFA Cup, but they've never won the UEFA Cup itself. So the information contained in the article is correct: Ajax, Juventus and Bayern Munich are the only clubs that have won the European Champions Cup/Champions League, the Cup Winners' Cup and the UEFA Cup. AecisBrievenbus 07:21, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

The UEFA cup is the new name and new trophy to replace the Inter-Cities Fairs Cup and so is the same. It would be like ignoring past winners of the European Cup and only recognising the new Champions League competition. All records state Barcelona as UEFA cup winners. Carlito777 (talk) 15:31, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

Then please cite those sources. AecisBrievenbus 20:52, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

The main source is simply the Spanish federation LFP - www.lfp.es (In Spanish) Go to Barcelona page and view trophies won listed as COPA DE LA UEFA and won in 1958, 1960 and 1966. Please edit Ajax, Bayern and Juventus page accordingly. Carlito777 (talk) 12:06, 28 February 2008 (UTC) If moderators do not have the decency respond to what I believe is conclusive evidence that Barca should be included in the list of clubs to have won all European trophies then stop removing my edit. Carlito777 (talk) 15:12, 3 March 2008 (UTC) If moderators are basing their reasons for not including Barca as a team that have won all championships on the fact that the Inter cities fairs cup is no longer a competition despite the fact it is clearly the old UEFA cup then they may as well remove the now defunct Cup Winners Cup from the list and only include teams who have won the two available trophies - the Champions cup and the UEFA cup. Carlito777 (talk) 12:15, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

There's one important consideration. The European Cup was turned into the Champions League and the Cup Winners' Cup was merged into the UEFA Cup. The Inter Cities Fairs Cup, on the other hand, was not organized by UEFA and to this day is not recognized by UEFA. See [1]. AecisBrievenbus 12:19, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

I hold my hands up. If we are talking about UEFA competitions then surely what UEFA says, goes. I stand corrected. Carlito777 (talk) 16:04, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Kenneth Perez's name

Aecis, I understand what you mean. Names are usually simplified as soon as they get out of their country of origin. However, in Wikipedia the original spelling of names is usually respected. Plus, the fact that a mistake is commonly repeated and spread doesn't make it true. Wislabe (talk) 12:42, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

Could you please point to the policy, guideline, convention or practice that says that "the original spelling of names is usually respected"? All we have for it is Wikipedia:Naming conventions (common names), which states that "the most common name of a person or thing" should be used (admittedly, in article titles). The most common name for this particular player is Perez, not Pérez. The proper spelling for the surname might be Pérez in Spanish, but keep in mind that this is a Danish player, not a Spanish player. Maybe the Danish civil registry made a mistake in his surname when they registered his birth, who knows, but it's not for us to correct them. The surname of this player is Perez, not Pérez, so listing him as Perez is correct. AecisBrievenbus 13:22, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
No, I can't point to any guideline, hence the word "usually". As I said, I understand that names tend to be simplified outside their original country, therefore I won't argue that spelling it "Perez" is incorrect. There are similar cases, like those of Robert Pirès or Kennedy Bakircioglü, where the names have been "nationalized". However I will argue that going back to the original spelling cannot be considered a mistake. Although born and raised in Denmark, and a Danish international too, as the son of a Spaniard, Kenneth is indeed Spanish according to Spanish Civil Law; and whether the Danish civil registry made a mistake or not, it is still a mistake anyway.Wislabe (talk) 14:49, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
Maybe it's a mistake, maybe not, but it is official as it is (Perez), and it's not for us to correct it to Pérez, because it's not incorrect as it is. AecisBrievenbus 14:54, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] European Cup: 1995/1996

Both Ajax and Juventus claiming they won? The reference doesn't provide the information it states.

According to the UEFA Champions League article, Juventus won.

Am I missing something?

The information is repeated on sevral player's articles too, e.g. Edwin van der Sar.

130.88.226.224 (talk) 17:43, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

Where does it say that Ajax won in 1995-96? Both this article and Edwin van der Sar state that Ajax won in 1994-95. AecisBrievenbus 18:50, 22 May 2008 (UTC)