Talk:Aegean Macedonia

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[edit] Oida oti ouk oida?

I've "fact"-tagged the statement that "the origins of the term are unknown". We shouldn't confuse our state of knowledge as Wikipedia editors with the state of knowledge of scholarship. That sentence, as it stands, implies that scholars have looked into the matter by browsing through the historical archives and come up empty-handed. If that's the case, fine, and it should be referenced. If, however, the sentence only means to say that a few Wikipedia editors have looked into the matter by surfing the web for an hour and have come up empty-handed, it is seriously misleading. Fut.Perf. ☼ 20:36, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

Feel free to rewrite it :) - FrancisTyers · 20:53, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

With all due respect and in all humility, the top comment can (i.e. possibly under certain conditions) be seen as totally superfluous in terms of Wikipedia editing because the duration of net surfing has little to do with it. An editor may be an expert in this field with a long standing and professional experience; but his/her conclusions and assesment will be considered POV by wiki standards if the statement cannot be (reasonably?) sourced. That seems like a sound wiki choice and I agree with it. Of course, ill disposed editors can 'suffocate' an article with an overkill of 'sources required'. However, again, no problem, that is the nature of wikipedia and that is why it is not such a reliable tool. It is what it is. Politis 13:03, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

Excellent additions and great research! Thanks :) - FrancisTyers · 13:04, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
I've converted to references, I hope you don't mind, but I have a request, could you provide translations for the Greek titles and - FrancisTyers · 13:11, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Term Aegean Macedonia

The term Aegean Macedonia is not a nationalist Macedonian Slav term. It is the name for that area of Macedonia. It is the name of the area in Macedonian. It has been used by western sources to describe the area as well here is an example[1] where Canadian Macedonian Steve Stavro is said to have been born in Aegean Macedonia.

As you can see this term is not a nationalist term. It is used by western sources. Alexander the great1 19:53, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

That is an article by a sports writer, he writes the information he is given. But please send all other the examples you have since I am compiling a catalogue of 'irredentist' language and tracking down the origin of such comments. Thank you very much. Anyway, with that logic, the term 'Western Bulgaria' or 'Whole Bulgaria' to refer to FY/RoM is also not a nationalist term. Politis 15:05, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] San Stephano, I think not

Please provide evidence regarding the presumed appelation 'Aegean Macedonia' since the Treaty of Stephano, up to 1944 or 1945. No Bulgarian, Greek, Engish or French source texts I have seen use that expression. If no evidence is provided, then we must remove that reference until such evidence is provided. Regarding the Bulgarian reference, please can you translate it.

San Stephano Treaty does not even include the terms 'Aegean' or 'Macedonia' [2]Politis 16:16, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Trend

I think there is an overkill with the whole irrednetism claim about Macedonians. While certainly worth mentioning from a historical perspective, this article in particlular is filled with these claims.

This is just an outdated hangover from 1950s communist era, held onto by some because they lack any real arguements Hxseek 03:30, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Term

You have a good point; the problem is that if it is just about the 'term', then the article can be just one paragraph. In fact, it was originally created as a form of disambiguation with most of the material provided by Politis (yours truly) and accepted by the then editors. Of course things move on. Politis 12:25, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

The article is about the term though. Does the note at the top of the page not say "This article is about the term "Aegean Macedonia" in northern Greece, for a full description of the Macedonian region in Greece, see Macedonia (Greece)"? All I'm questioning is the relevance of the profile of Macedonia (Greece) in this article when it is linked to at the very top of the page. Also, are there any sources about how in Greek "the inclusion of 'Aegean' refers to 'coastal' regions with immediate access to the sea, as opposed to 'in land'"?--NetProfit 12:40, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

I agree that some editing may be required. Even though 'Aegean Macedonia' is a neologism, it strictly refers to the Greek province of Macedonia - hence the explanatory box in the main article. Regarding 'coastal', Plato used the metaphor, "Like frogs around a pond, we [the Greeks] have settled down upon the shores of the Aegean". Politis 13:06, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

I disagree. Albion and Blighty refer to the UK, but the profile is not reproduced, as you live in the UK, you should be familiar with those terms. Anyway, "Aegean Macedonia" sometimes includes areas of southeastern Albania ("Mala Prespa and Golo Bardo") so the extent to which it strictly refers to Greek Macedonia is debatable. Finally, even if Plato does use "Aegean" that way, it's original research to try to guess the origin of the term "Aegean Macedonia" here.--NetProfit 13:12, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

The inclusion of Mala Prespa and Golo Bardo in Aegean Macedonia must be a rare exeption. Those people in Skopje who use such territorial interpretations (it is not official policy to do so) clearly distinguish between the Macedonians in Albania, Bulgaria, Greece and former Yugoslavia. Certainly the Greeks do not include it and neither do Slav Macedonians who originate from Greek Macedonia. Even under Tito, AM = Greek province of Macedonia. Regarding Plato, I am not aware of it being original research to quote him with regard to the term Aegean and what it means to the Greeks. Albion and Blighty are historical terms to include a profile; here we are using the profile for Greek Macedonia, not of Greece. Politis 13:35, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

I don't think it's an exception, when claiming United Macedonia, they usually just refer to Aegean, Vardar and Pirin Macedonia (the parts in Greece and Serbia are just included in the terms Aegean and Vardar Macedonia respectively). As long as this article says (in the note at the top) that it's about the term, the profile of Greek Macedonia really has no place here.--NetProfit 13:39, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

Look at the map Macedonia (region). The article and maps were agreed upon by editors from many parts of Europe and south east Europe and it featured as a Today's Article in Wikipedia; AM = Greek Macedonia. For instance, those who used the term since the 1950s and the Aegean Macedonians / Slav Macedonians who published 'Makedonska Iskra' in Australia at the time were from Greek Macedonia, not from Albania. One reason for excluding Albania by Tito was due to their common political ideology at the time. Politis 14:02, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

You haven't yet explained why the profile of Greek Macedonia is so absolutely essential in this article. Including it implies it is a legitimate alternative name, which we know it is not (if it was, at Macedonia (Greece), it would say Macedonia, also known as Aegean Macedonia...). Moreover, I think that duplication of information is discouraged.--NetProfit 14:06, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

As a compromise, we could simply include some of the details from the profile. Saddly, I have no idea how to create or edit such boxes. Perhaps someone can help out. Politis 14:11, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

Do you think the map of Greek Macedonia will do? How about adding (or replacing it with) a map of "United Macedonia"?--NetProfit 14:20, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

I think the Greek one since this article is strictly about AM; the United Macedonia includes all the others and is a different article.Politis 14:29, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Sourcing

The following passage from the article displays some confusion about sources:

Tito's war time representative to Macedonia, Svetozar Vukmanović-Tempo, is credited with promoting the usage of the new regional names of the Macedonian region for irredentist purposes. Indeed, Tsola Dragoicheva, in her Memoirs, 'Pobadata', Sofia 1979, writes that, "Under pressure from Tempo, the Macedonian HQ issued a Manifesto in October 1943, for the slogan about a 'United Macedonia', which began to crop up in CPY documents. Hitherto, the Yugolsav party leadership only had designs on Vardar Macedonia. Tempo himself wrote [1] that, “The slogan about a united Macedonia first appeared in the Manifesto of the HQ of the Macedonian National Liberation Army, at the beginning of October 1943. There had been no mention of it earlier in any document either in Yugoslavia or in Macedonia”. Tempo also attacked the Greek Communist Party (KKE) because it, "only recognises the Macedonian people of Aegean Macedonia a right to equality in the framework of the Greek State" [2]. The ideological context was always 'anti bourgeois-democratic parties' and in line with communist ideology.
  1. ^ (Struggle for the Balkans,London: Merlin 1980)
  • ^ (How and why the people's Liberation struggle of Greece met with defeat (O narodnou revolucijiu u Grckoj), Manchester: Merlin Press, 1985, original 1949)
  • Questions:
    • Where in this paragraph does the passage ascribed to Tsola Dragoicheva end?
    • What's the exact bibliographic reference for "Struggle for the Balkan" (1980), is it a book by Vukmanovic-Tempo himself or a book by someone else quoting him; and if the latter, when and where did Vukmanovic-Tempo write it?
    • Same question about the 1985 book. Who is its author, what is its real title? (Obviously, "O narodnou revolucijiu u Grckoj" isn't a literal translation of "How and why the people's Liberation struggle of Greece met with defeat".)

Fut.Perf. ☼ 09:27, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Especially irredentist

BalkanFever, can you provide a number of sources from FY/ROM where 'Aegean Macedonia' is NOT used in an irredentist manner? Also, please provide irredentist sources. Politis (talk) 12:43, 13 May 2008 (UTC)