Talk:Adolf Hitler/mentioning the (mis?)spelling Adolph

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Here is the very long discussion about whether the spelling Adolph should be mentioned and if it should be mentioned as misspelling or just another possible spelling. Any comment by me is in the typewriter font. I didn't change any posting of anyone, just organized them and tried to add sensible headings without having to completely reorganize really everything and having to break up many posting :-D . (Hope everyone is happy the way I did it.) Laudaka 07:09, 27 Jan 2004 (UTC) (Paul/laudaka)

Contents

[edit] First postings about (mis?)spelling Adolph

header added by me

moved from posting about other subject In any case, Amazon.com is selling ~600 books about "Adolph Hitler". Lirath Q. Pynnor probably 11 Nov 2003

moved from posting about other subject Also, most of the early results from the Amazon search on "Adolph Hitler" either seem to be older books or books not particularly about Hitler. A search for "Adolf Hitler" yields more than 4500 results. A google search on "Adolf Hitler" yields 392,000 results. A search on "Adolph Hitler" gives less than 70,000. I think the word "occasionally" is appropriate. john 23:46, 11 Nov 2003 (UTC)

moved from posting about other subjectOccasionally is fine, I never removed it. Lirath Q. Pynnor probably 11 Nov 2003

[edit] Vote about mentioning the (mis?)spelling Adolph

header changed by me

Hundreds of books use Adolph exclusively, tens of thousands of websites use Adolph, Britannica acknowledges this spelling...should Wikipedia? This is not a vote on whether to use "Adolph"; it is a vote on whether to mention that other writers do use it. probably 12 Nov 2003

[edit] Yes

  • Lirath Q. Pynnor
  • Definetly as an alternative spelling, like Alphonso for Alfonso. Check Adolph in google.de for 371,000 hits. Enough? Muriel 14:25, 12 Nov 2003 (UTC)
    • 53,700 hits for "Adolph Hitler" (google.de). If you think this is wrong, i'm not going to contradict you anymore, because i lack the patience. But is not nonsense and its not a mis-spell. Have a nice day! Muriel 14:47, 12 Nov 2003 (UTC)
  • But you get zero hits inGerman language newspapers 168... 20:14, 12 Nov 2003 (UTC)
      • but google.de lists English language web sites as well as a default - you need to search for German language results only. Secretlondon 14:52, Nov 12, 2003 (UTC)
        • So its not just a German spelling! :) Muriel
          • It's a not a german spelling at all, as far as I can see. Secretlondon 14:55, Nov 12, 2003 (UTC)
            • 53,700 hits for "Adolph Hitler" so, if not german, what? You can always ask andy. I'm just 1/2 german... Muriel
              • While in German "ph" is an old spelling for "f" (which gets more and more uncommon nowadays) to all my knowledge Hitler always used "Adolf". I could find many websites spell him with "ph" so a redirect is needed, but AFAIK it is a misspelling. andy 15:24, 12 Nov 2003 (UTC)
  • So far as I know, the "ph" is sometimes used in German instead of the "f". Especially at the end of words. Thus you sometimes see "Emperor Franz Joseph" rather than "Emperor Franz Josef", and so forth. The "Adolph" spelling, while not normally used, is not, I think, necessarily incorrect. It seems to me that it's a valid alternative spelling, even if rather aesthetically unpleasant. john 19:45, 12 Nov 2003 (UTC)
    • No, in German you cannot interchange ph and f. If your name is Adolph, then your name isn't Adolf. If your name was Adolf, you cannot write Adolph. There are some particular words, which can be written both with ph and f (Telegrafie, Telegraphie), but in case of names, you have to be exactly. Hitler's name was Adolf!
      • So, Emperor Franz Josef, or Franz Joseph? I have certainly seen both. And that's a different question from anclicizing the name to "Francis Joseph". john 04:09, 13 Nov 2003 (UTC)
  • reddi ... just make a note that it is sometimes spelled Adolph Hitler.
  • Mention it, but not in the introduction. Somewhere towards the end of the article discuss how in English Adolph is a common mispelling. - SimonP 03:45, Nov 13, 2003 (UTC)
    • Its not exactly a mispelling, AFAIK, it was (for whatever reason) specifically used as an English transliteration -- eventually, people decided that German names didn't need to be modified so heavily. Lirath Q. Pynnor
  • Yes, it's a Wikipedia convention to confirm that you've landed at the right page and to mention regularly used alternative meanings near the start of the article so people know that they have arrived at the right place. We're a descriptive work, not a prescriptive one. JamesDay 09:07, 14 Nov 2003 (UTC)
  • Yes, a note on the other spelling isn't a bad idea.168... 22:37, 14 Nov 2003 (UTC)
    • 168...'s excellent research on the subject is compelling, and I think very much worthy of a note in the article. Martin 23:32, 14 Nov 2003 (UTC)

[edit] No

  • If you are checking _german_ websites in google, Adolf has 37.500 hits, Adolph only 178. I think Adolph is a misspelling. - user:82.82.117.83
  • I personally can't stand the other spelling of Adolf. Let's not just follow Brittanica on this issue, as we try to be better than them elsewise. --user:zanimum
  • Including the wrong spelling in the introduction makes the incorrect spelling appear equally valid, which it is not -- it is simply wrong.Maximus Rex 14:44, 12 Nov 2003 (UTC)
  • Adolph is wrong. I guess it's an anglicisation, although I've never seen it in the books I've read. Maybe a US thing? Secretlondon 14:49, Nov 12, 2003 (UTC)
  • Adolph is definitely a misspelling. All German -ph hits are amateurish websites, while the -f hits include reliable sources. "Adolph" may be a redirect to the correct spelling, but the incorrect spelling should not be mentioned in the introduction. -- Baldhur 15:50, 12 Nov 2003 (UTC)
  • His name only had one spelling, the one in his passport. Everything else can be redirects, but nothing more. andy 19:53, 12 Nov 2003 (UTC)
  • Just spell it the way he himself wrote it. --snoyes 20:01, 12 Nov 2003 (UTC)
  • It is properly "Adolf" even in English, so it should be spelled that way. This is kind of like Wilhelm II of Germany, which is not William (although there is Frederick William II of Prussia, for example, not Friedrich Wilhelm). But "Adolph" can redirect here because it is such a common misspelling. Adam Bishop 20:08, 12 Nov 2003 (UTC)
  • The modern common spelling is Adolf, Adolph is just a hangover from an older english spelling (it was used first AFAIK in the New York Times Nov 9 1923). --Imran
  • A redirect is enough.—Eloquence 13:16, Nov 13, 2003 (UTC)
  • I second that. Moriori 01:53, Nov 16, 2003 (UTC)
  • Adolf himself called himself "Adolf", I think de Fuher's opinion should count as another user's. Not that I'm supporting him in general, just his opinion of his name. Okay? Zanimum
  • OK I'll save space...I completly agree with the guy 'Zanimum' you are sooooo right. We should respect the fact that he wants his name spelt like that. User:Turnips

[edit] More arguments whether Adolph is a mispelling or an alternative spelling (yet without any suggestions how to say it in the article)

header added by me

Here's the cover and title page of what appears to be a 1941 (and hence presumably official) German language edition of Mein Kampf with the "Adolf" spelling. And here it is blown up 168... 19:57, 12 Nov 2003 (UTC)

Google News pulls out 677 hits for "Adolf", among them the New York Times but only 56 hits for "Adolph." I like the stats for newspapers better than the stats for all the Web when it comes to usage conventions.168... 20:09, 12 Nov 2003 (UTC)

O.K., here's the doosey. Google News 'Deutschland' pulls up 208 hits for "Adolf" and not one for "Adolph." 168... 20:14, 12 Nov 2003 (UTC)

But here's a book on Amazon that shows "Adolph" on the cover. Other out-of-print books by well known publishers, such as Bantam don't have their covers visible on Amazon but are listed with "Adolph" in the title. This back cover was published or republished in 2000 by the very reputable New York Review of Books. So I don't think it can be disputed that "Adolph" was and is a recognized spelling. Also the contemporary English media that Google News pulls up with "Adolph" supports this. This is how dictionaries decide how things are spelled and whether variations in spelling are legitimate--by looking at what gets published.168... 22:57, 13 Nov 2003 (UTC) Here was a list of the links in 168... postings, it seems to me it is enough to preserve his postings above which contain those links

This is the English wiki, English writers sometimes use "Adolph", we should note that it is sometimes spelled that way. You may not like the spelling, but it is used. Lirath Q. Pynnor

The name 'Adolf' is from 'Adolphus'. This has a 'ph' because it's Greek, and the Romans transcribed φ as 'ph' because it was said [p_h] (aspirated 'p'). The Romans didn't have [p_h] so they mostly said [f]. The Germans and Englsih did the same when they started using the name 'Adolph', but kept the old 'ph' spelling. In the 19th century they sorted out German spelling making it more phonemic, replacing 'c's 'z's and 'k's (e.g. 'circus'->'zirkus') and 'ph's to 'f's. Some people's names didn;t change though, as didn't soem words, so the 'ph' spelling lingered on - probably why you get 'Joseph' is German. Xipirho 23:05, 1 Jan 2005 (UTC)

[edit] And more arguments whether Adolph is a (mis?)spelling MIXED with possible ways to say this in the article (part 1)

header added by me

What about "Sometimes the spelling 'Adolph' is used by english authors. But, it is wrong."? 82.82.117.83 20:32, 12 Nov 2003 (UTC)
But it might not be wrong sometime in the future...maybe in hundreds of years they will be interchangeable :) I know for example that the name "Amalric," as in Amalric I of Jerusalem is also spelled Amaury, Aimery, and Maury, Amalric being only the "official" Latin form in the 11th century...so in 1000 years English may have some completely unrecognizable way of spelling Adolf. Anyway, what I'm getting at is "Adolph" is not wrong, it's just not how it is commonly spelled right now. Adam Bishop 20:47, 12 Nov 2003 (UTC)
Why don't you post you arguments in the Pro/Contra section? I suppose the user meant posting in the section I have renamed to 'Vote about mentioning the (mis?)spelling Adolph'

There seems to be some confusion among some of the arguments here. I don't think anybody has proposed to move the page to Adolph Hitler. Rather, it has been suggested to have, in the introduction, something saying Adolf Hitler (occasionally Adolph), or the like. Since it is, occasionally, spelled "Adolph" in English (and even more occasionally in German, seemingly), I don't see what's particularly offensive about this. In any event, in order to avoid this nasty argument, I propose that we move the page to Adolphus Hitler. Any seconds? john 04:09, 13 Nov 2003 (UTC)

There is a fundamental difference between a misspelling and an alternative spelling or transliteration. Misspellings should be addressed using redirects and not mentioned in the article itself -- Wikipedia:Wikipedia is not a dictionary. Alternative spellings can be noted, but we should not elevate misspellings to the status of alternative spellings. If "Adoplh" ever was an alternative spelling in academia (it certainly isn't today), that can be noted somewhere long after genocide, war, and his love of dogs.—Eloquence 13:40, Nov 13, 2003 (UTC)


What about "In the beginning of Hitler's political career, in English he sometimes was spelled Adolph, but later only Adolf, which is correct." (perhaps in better english (-:) 82.82.127.117 13:43, 13 Nov 2003 (UTC)

Is there an article on List of longest Wikipedia debates about completely trivial and inconsequential subjects? If so this debate should head the list. I have made a small edit. Can we move on? Adam 09:54, 14 Nov 2003 (UTC)

Do we have a final tally? Is everybody happy with where their votes stand? We're reverting back and forth between a version that notes "Adolph" as an incorrect spelling and one that makes no mention of it. The "incorrect" note strikes me as something that most "no" voters wouldn't object to, although at least user Wik (who argues simply that a "misspelling" isn't worth noting) seems adamantly opposed, so I don't know. What do others think about this specific proposition? 168... 22:37, 14 Nov 2003 (UTC)

Wik is just plain wrong on his characterisation of the Adolph Hitler spelling. If I write "Adolf Jitler", that is a mispelling. But "Adolph Hitler" is not a mispelling, it is an incorrect but common alternative spelling. It arose because many classically educated people used to feel that the Greek "ph" is somehow superior to the simple "f", even in a pure Germanic name like Adolf. Even some Germans preferred this, as Wik himself demonstrated when he showed that Goebbels spelled his name "Joseph" rather than "Josef." The article should simply note that the alternative spelling exists but is incorrect, and move on to something more important. Adam 02:11, 15 Nov 2003 (UTC)

Well said. Agreed. -- Mattworld 02:17, 15 Nov 2003 (UTC)
You are wrong. Goebbels spelled his name Joseph because that was his name as much as Hitler's was Adolf. Other people may well be named Josef or Adolph. German names can occur in various spellings, but it is fixed for each individual. And it is not up to other people to define alternative spellings. I have to remind you that you were wrong before when you claimed that Goebbels somehow changed his spelling in 1933 from Joseph to the supposedly more Germanic Josef - now you seem to claim the opposite. --Wik 16:00, Nov 15, 2003 (UTC)
(Not that it's relevant to this discussion, but that is not what I said. I said that after 1933 the regime seems to have used the Josef spelling, as evidenced by the street names. And anyway the issue here is not what was the correct spelling of Adolf, but what we should say in this article about the fact that the Adolph spelling is sometimes used. Adam)

Actually, it is indeed "up to other people to define alternative spellings" when the original name is spelled in another alphabet, like Chinese or Arabic. So we have Peking and Bejing and Mecca and Makkah, etc. Typographically, there's nothing standing in the way of us English speakers writing "Deutschland" and yet many of us choose to spell it "Germany."168... 17:00, 15 Nov 2003 (UTC)

But German isn't using another alphabet, other than a few special letters which however don't occur in "Adolf Hitler". And "Deutschland" and "Germany" are words in different languages, not just different spellings of the same word. However, modern names (except some royalty) aren't translated like countries. Also, the claim that "Adolph Hitler" is somehow an English specialty is completely wrong; you'll find this misspelling on German sites too, just a bit less frequently because naturally Germans are more familiar with the correct spelling. --Wik 17:22, Nov 15, 2003 (UTC)

The fact of misspelling is not evidence one way or the other about legitimate spellings. While English publishers use both spellings, German publishers only use "Adolf":

I doubt "Adolph" and "Adolf" count as "modern names." Surely they must go back a few centuries, and so it wouldn't be surprising if countries had favorite renderings, like "Adolfo" and so occasionally used "Adolfo Hitler" (46 hits in Spanish media). You might be right that the modern convention is to spell names as their owners did when you use the same alphabet. And yet either that wasn't always the convention or else it wasn't a universal convention, because it's just a fact that some professional writers and publishers in the English speaking world used and continue use "Adolph" to refer to Hitler. 168... 18:56, 15 Nov 2003 (UTC)

That definitely wasn't always the convention. john 19:03, 15 Nov 2003 (UTC)
This may be shocking, but professional writers and publishers commit misspellings too. With "modern names" I meant names of modern people, who have all kinds of official documents with a fixed spelling of their name. That was different a few centuries ago, but not in Hitler's time. Those who use Adolph do so out of sheer ignorance, not as a conscious "translation" of Adolf. As I said, Germans are much more familiar with the name so German books are much less likely to have this misspelling. --Wik 20:08, Nov 15, 2003 (UTC)

English people have had spellings written down in dictionaries for centuries and yet dictionaries have had to evolve as the way people choose to spell has drifted. In English history and public discourse, Adolph/Adolf is adrift. It may be destined to berth at "Adolf", but it's not tied up there yet.168... 20:46, 15 Nov 2003 (UTC)

This is a proposed note for the bottom of the article that you want to censor:

'A note regarding the spelling "Adolph"'
'In the first half of the last century, Hitler's first name was often translated into English as "Adolph." This variant persists to some extent in English speaking countries, although in Germany and elsewhere "Adolf" is used exclusively. Hitler himself spelled his name "Adolf."'

How is this inaccurate? How does this encourage the spelling you are opposed to? You called it "not worth mentioning" in the subject line of one your reversions and "plainly wrong" in another. The former is sort of an argument, but I don't see how you could sincerely mean the latter. What exactly is wrong, in your view, with having some such note as this at the bottom? 168... 21:01, 15 Nov 2003 (UTC)

As I said, I don't think it was consciously translated. If you think so, provide evidence. It was (and is) misspelled, and I don't think misspellings are worth mentioning (other than in Misspelling, maybe you want to add it there). --Wik 21:21, Nov 15, 2003 (UTC)

I don't think it matters whether it was by someone's expert linguistic analysis or by an epileptic seizure that "Adolph Hitler" became common in English publishing. If it was a mistake, that's unfortunate, but mistakes happen and affect the course of history. As I argued, the above note does not actually encourage perpetuation of what you are calling a mistake, it merely notes that it happened and the amount of influence that it has had. So now is it only the word "translated" that you object to?168... 22:24, 15 Nov 2003 (UTC)

No, I also wonder what the basis is for the "first half of the last century". This seems like pure speculation. What is the evidence that at that time it was more often spelled Adolph than today? --Wik 22:30, Nov 15, 2003 (UTC)
I posted a moment ago results of a Library of Congress title search for "Adolph Hitler" but most of the items are graphics, so the title they're catalogued under is a function not of the date of publication but when they were catalogued, which I can't tell from the entries, and so I decided they're not helpful.168... 01:01, 16 Nov 2003 (UTC)

I think this whole thing is fascinating, especially the passion it has evoked. Clearly, for English speakers (which I am) the subject of the misspelling of Hitler's name is something that should be mentioned somewhere. Why not here? Is it really such a problem? My apologies for interrupting such an erudite discussion, but really, why not mention it? WormRunner 22:37, 15 Nov 2003 (UTC)

The problem is that some people deny that it is a misspelling. --Wik 22:46, Nov 15, 2003 (UTC)

The problem is also that people disagree what makes something a "misspelling."168... 00:53, 16 Nov 2003 (UTC)

[edit] And more arguments whether Adolph is a (mis?)spelling MIXED with possible ways to say this in the article (part 2) (was named 'spelling')

header changed by me

the debate still continues on the same subject

What makes the spelling so important? Obviously

  1. in German Adolf is used, Adolph is never used.
  2. in other languages Adolf is used
  3. in English today Adolf is used, even though in the very beginning, before Hitler became Nazi Germany's dictator, the New York Times or whoever spelled it Adolph, but later Adolf. If you want to, you can mention it, but not in the introduction, because it is just a misspelling.
  4. in German names ph cannot be interchanged by f.

All these arguments are repeated and repeated and the misspelling still is a misspelling. maybe it is mentionable, maybe it is absolutely unimportant because today in English nobody spells Adolph and it has no historical relevance, because Hitler never used Adolph, it was not his name. 82.82.131.134 01:10, 16 Nov 2003 (UTC)

As has been documented over and over above, in fact publishers do to this day put "Adolph Hitler" in their newspapers and on the jackets of their books. Also, what we've lately been discussing is effectively a footnote, not something to include in the introduction. Don't ask me why it seems so important to someone that it not be mentioned.168... 01:27, 16 Nov 2003 (UTC)


Nobody??
I provide this link to the University of San Diego History Department.
http://history.acusd.edu/gen/WW2Timeline/Prelude03.html
WormRunner 01:34, 16 Nov 2003 (UTC)
It is not impossible that even a university history department could be wrong. Adam Bishop 01:36, 16 Nov 2003 (UTC)

[edit] And more arguments whether Adolph is a (mis?)spelling MIXED with possible ways to say this in the article (part 3) (was named 'Write a footnote about the misspelling')

header changed by me

the debate still continues on the same subject

Okay, not "nobody". But, it is a minority as the google figures showed. Mention it! Write a short paragraph about the spelling, but, also say, that Adolph is not correct. If I would write "Jeorge Bush" and Millions of historians would do so, too, Jeorge wouldn't be correct, would it? In fact it is a misspelling, many people seem to use. But many people write "nesseccary", too. 82.82.131.134 01:40, 16 Nov 2003 (UTC)


Did you not notice the one above? Here it is again:


A note regarding the spelling "Adolph"
In the first half of the last century, Hitler's first name was often translated into English as "Adolph." This variant persists to some extent in English speaking countries, although in Germany and elsewhere "Adolf" is used exclusively. Hitler himself spelled his name "Adolf."

Wik doesn't like "translated" or the unproven assertion of "the first half of the last century."

So how about

A note regarding the spelling "Adolph"
Occasionally in English Hitler's first name is rendered "Adolph." In Germany and elsewhere "Adolf" is used exclusively. Hitler himself spelled his name "Adolf." -- 168... 01:51, 16 Nov 2003 (UTC)
Sounds reasonable to me. WormRunner 01:54, 16 Nov 2003 (UTC)
Yeah. If Adolf friggin' Hitler spelt his name Adolf, I the de Fuher himself just settled it for us. - user:zanimum
Occasionally sometimes... well, if you think that's relevant. But 1) it's still a misspelling and therefore "rendered" should be "misspelled", and 2) it's not true that in Germany Adolf is used "exclusively" - it is just misspelled less frequently, for obvious reasons. --Wik 02:57, Nov 16, 2003 (UTC)
1)"rendered" is accurate and neutral. "misspelled" would add no information to the paragraph in question (which says how Hitler, the rest of the world and how people writing in English other than in occasional instances spell it), only a value judgement reflecting your POV but not the POV of others here 2) zero hits on German Amazon and zero hits on German Google News means zero usage of "Adolph" in Germany to me. I don't think we care so much about how 17 year-old Berlin bloggers spell it. Seeing as you find even the New York Review of Books an untrustworthy source for accepted word usage, I would have thought that a search restricted to German book titles and newspapers would have been quite wide enough for you. 168... 03:33, 16 Nov 2003 (UTC)
A misspelling is a misspelling. It makes no difference whether it's a 17-year-old Berlin blogger or the New York Review of Books saying Adolph - neither has the authority to redefine the spelling. If I'm reading the poll right, the majority here supports my view that a redirect is enough. But I don't want to belabour this any further. While you're at it, you might want to go to Fascism and add a note "occasionally rendered Facism". --Wik 03:49, Nov 16, 2003 (UTC)
Geez, somebody better inform the University of San Diego, they still think its a transliteration! Lirath Q. Pynnor
You don't have the authority to define the spelling either. Anyway, I believe the proposed note is written in such a way that a reader will not fail to conclude that "Adolph" is misspelled, if he or she shares your concept of what constitutes a misspelling. Meanwhile, it's hard to know what to conclude from the poll at this point. Most "no" votes predate my posting of additional evidence and my suggestion we change the question to being about whether "Adolph" is worth a mention at the end. 168... 04:04, 16 Nov 2003 (UTC)

If I ever write an article on "why collective editing of an encyclopaedia is a bad idea," this discussion will be Appendix A. Adam

If, hypothetically, everyone in English starts writing it "Adolph," would it still be wrong? (And should this discussion turn into something about the philosophy of spelling?) Adam Bishop 04:54, 16 Nov 2003 (UTC)

Although I find this amazing, what we seem to be discussing is

  • a)whether people who do not dispute the accuracy of a footnote but who find it uninteresting should be allowed to require that it not appear in the article, despite the opinions of others who think it deserves inclusion as a footnote

and

  • b)whether people who have one of two popular philosophies about spelling (prescriptive versus descriptive) should be allowed to require that the facts in the footnote should be not merely presented but should in addition be interpreted through the lens of their philosophy as indicating a misspelling, even though other people here interpret them as showing the complete opposite.168... 06:23, 16 Nov 2003 (UTC)

Whoops: Actually Wik did dispute the accuracy of "exclusively", but I'm sure that a small tweak could make the assertion unambiguously accurate to all interpretation. e.g. "more or less exclusively" or "in publishing....more or less exclusively" etc 168... 06:40, 16 Nov 2003 (UTC)

[edit] Final remark by the "reorganizer" Paul/laudaka)

of course this header is by me

I tried to organize everything in a way that was NPOV, I hope no one noticed I found it a hopelessly long discussion *very big smile* . If you didn't, I must have done it in a NPOV way. BTW I could have added much more headings but as it seems everyone finally agreed I didn't think it was that important. PHEW Done, hopefully. Hmm maybe I'm too perfectionist, but well I don't seem to be the only person here :-P Laudaka 07:09, 27 Jan 2004 (UTC) (Paul/laudaka)