Talk:Adolf Hitler/Archive

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Proposed article split

This article is overweight and needs to be split into 2 in order to guarantee editorial freedom. Put your proposals here, and I will hopefully do the split on Sunday on the basis of consensus reached. I am putting a note at the top of the article to let readers participate in the debate.

Talk:Adolf Hitler/Archive

Seriously, people, do you really need three adjectives praising Hitler's supposedly wonderful speaking style? Strunk and White says cut down on the adjectives, and this man is Hitler, not Tony fucking Robbins. -- JG

Well he did persuade the german military into doing all that.

Yes he was an amazing speaker and an insipration, but he was a horrible man.

Suggest 58 possible wiki links and 24 possible backlinks for Adolf Hitler.

An automated Wikipedia link suggester has some possible wiki link suggestions for the Adolf_Hitler article:

  • Can link Western Europe: ...although he has become, especially in the United States and Western Europe, virtually emblematic of tyranny and monstrous evil. The [[...
  • Can link irreconcilable differences: ...espectful of his father, though he does state that they had irreconcilable differences over his firm decision to become an artist. His father stau... (link to section)
  • Can link civil servant: ...aunchly opposed this career path, wanting Adolf to become a civil servant instead. In January [[1903]] Alois died, and in December [[... (link to section)
  • Can link homeless people: ...paintings to merchants. Yet Hitler lived in [[hostel]]s for homeless people and lived a marginal existence. During his spare time he of... (link to section)
  • Can link spare time: ... homeless people and lived a marginal existence. During his spare time he often attended operas in Vienna's concert halls, especia... (link to section)
  • Can link Eastern Europe: ...[[Jew]]ish community, including many [[Orthodox Jews]] from Eastern Europe. He became influenced by publicists such as [[Lanz von Lieb... (link to section)
  • Can link political views: ...ority of the "[[Aryan race]]" which formed the basis of his political views. Ultimately Hitler came to believe that the Jews were the n... (link to section)
  • Can link physical examination: ...liking. The Austrian army later arrested him and gave him a physical examination. Found unfit for service, he was allowed to return to Munic... (link to section)
  • Can link German army: ...d at the German capitulation in November [[1918]], when the German army remained, in popular German belief, undefeated. At the time... (link to section)
  • Can link poison gas: ...surrender, Hitler was recovering in a field hospital from a poison gas attack that had temporarily blinded him. Like many other Ge... (link to section)
  • Can link World War: ...group was to create a [[scapegoat]] for the outbreak of the World War and for Germany's defeat. This scapegoat was found in "inte... (link to section)
  • Can link nationalist party: ...eas and was assigned by Headquarters to infiltrate a small nationalist party, the [[German Workers' Party]]. Hitler joined the party in ... (link to section)
  • Can link National Socialist German Workers Party: ...ties. He soon became its leader and changed its name to the National Socialist German Workers Party (''Nationalsozialistische Deutsche Arbeiterpartei''—N... (link to section)
  • Can link Field-Marshall: ... the [[Sturmabteilung|SA]]. Another admirer was the wartime Field-Marshall [[Erich Ludendorff]]. Hitler decided to use Ludendorff as a... (link to section)
  • Can link beer hall: ..." of [[November 8]] [[1923]], when the Nazis marched from a beer hall to the Bavarian War Ministry, intending to overthrow Bavari... (link to section)
  • Can link right-wing: ...the Bavarian War Ministry, intending to overthrow Bavaria's right-wing separatist government and then march on Berlin. The army qu... (link to section)
  • Can link The turning point: ...he road to power == ''See also the [[Weimar Timeline]].'' The turning point in Hitler's fortunes came with the [[Great Depression|Depre... (link to section)
  • Can link Social Democrats: ...ed by conservatives and was openly opposed by fascists. The Social Democrats and the traditional parties of the centre and right were un... (link to section)
  • Can link middle-class: ...n over the bulk of the German farmers, war veterans and the middle-class, who had been hard hit by the inflation of the [[1920s]] an... (link to section)
  • Can link half-sister: ...l]], was found dead in her bedroom. Hitler had taken in his half-sister Angela and her daughter Geli, to live in his Munich apartme... (link to section)
  • Can link presidential election: ...aving little success, the government was anxious to avoid a presidential election in [[1932]], and hoped to secure the Nazis' agreement to an... (link to section)
  • Can link working class: ...o join the government, along with the Nazis' efforts to win working class support, alienated some of the Nazis' previous supporters, ... (link to section)
  • Can link majority government: ...[Kurt von Schleicher]], who promised that he could secure a majority government by negotiations with both Social Democratic labour unions a... (link to section)
  • Can link labour unions: ...rity government by negotiations with both Social Democratic labour unions and with the dissident Nazi faction led by [[Gregor Strasse... (link to section)
  • Can link Alfred Hugenberg: ...ssident Nazi faction led by [[Gregor Strasser]]. Papen and Alfred Hugenberg, who was also Chairman of the [[German National People's Pa... (link to section)
  • Can link political power: ...me == ''See also [[Nazi Germany]]'' Having secured supreme political power without winning support from the majority of Germans, Hitle... (link to section)
  • Can link mass media: ...s regime. He was a master orator, and with all of Germany's mass media under the control of his propaganda chief, Dr. [[Joseph Goe... (link to section)
  • Can link German economy: ...ction and civil improvement that Germany had ever seen. The German economy achieved near full employment and greatly expanded its econ... (link to section)
  • Can link full employment: ...hat Germany had ever seen. The German economy achieved near full employment and greatly expanded its economic and industrial base. Hitl... (link to section)
  • Can link ethnic Germans: ...d other civil improvements. Hitler's health initiatives for ethnic Germans were successful and progressive. Hitler's policies emphasi... (link to section)
  • Can link family life: ...rogressive. Hitler's policies emphasised the importance of family life: men were the breadwinners, women’s priorities being ... (link to section)
  • Can link German people: ... these and other reasons, Hitler was very popular among the German people during this time.... (link to section)
  • Can link armed forces: ...acting an oath of personal loyalty from every member of the armed forces. This merger, which had been approved by the Weimar parliam... (link to section)
  • Can link non-Jewish: .... They were subject to a barrage of hateful propaganda. Few non-Jewish Germans objected to these steps. These restrictions were fu... (link to section)
  • Can link Air Force: ...ing a massive military machine, including a new Navy and an Air Force (the [[Luftwaffe]]). The enlistment of vast numbers of men ... (link to section)
  • Can link prisoners of war: ...apped]], the mentally [[retarded]], [[Soviet Union|Soviet]] prisoners of war, the [[Poland|Polish]] [[intelligentsia]], [[Jehovah's Witn... (link to section)
  • Can link mass killing: ...y role. While no specific order from Hitler authorizing the mass killing of the Jews has surfaced, although there is documentation t... (link to section)
  • Can link central planning: ...nn]], the records of which provide the best evidence of the central planning of the Holocaust. Just days later, on [[February 22]], Hitl... (link to section)
  • Can link German-speaking: ...al entry into Vienna. Next he intensified a crisis over the German-speaking [[Sudetenland]] district of [[Czechoslovakia]]. This led to... (link to section)
  • Can link British prime minister: ...ed to the [[Munich Agreement]] of September [[1938]], which British prime minister [[Neville Chamberlain]] hailed as 'Peace in our time'. At ... (link to section)
  • Can link western powers: ...der the [[Treaty of Versailles|Versailles Treaty]]. But the western powers were unable to come to an agreement with the [[Soviet Union... (link to section)
  • Can link Great Britain: ...] of Italy, to join the war on Hitler's side on May 1940. Great Britain, whose forces had been driven from France at the coast of D... (link to section)
  • Can link bombing raid: ...t of Dunkirk, continued to fight on alone. Hitler ordered a bombing raid on the British Isles, leading to the [[Battle of Britain]],... (link to section)
  • Can link British Isles: ...ued to fight on alone. Hitler ordered a bombing raid on the British Isles, leading to the [[Battle of Britain]], which continued unti... (link to section)
  • Can link Baltic states: ...barossa]], seized huge amounts of territory, especially the Baltic states and the Ukraine, resulting in destruction of many Soviet fo... (link to section)
  • Can link North Africa: ...d]], the first major defeat Germany suffered in the war. In North Africa, Britain defeated Germany at the battle of [[El Alamein]], ... (link to section)
  • Can link turning point: ...z Canal]] and the [[Middle East]]. These defeats were a key turning point in the war. After these, Hitler’s military decisions ... (link to section)
  • Can link declaration of war: ...w]] believes he suffered from [[Parkinson's disease]]. His declaration of war against the [[United States]] on [[December 11]] [[1941]] (... (link to section)
  • Can link resistance movement: ...r narrowly escaped death. Savage reprisals followed and the resistance movement was crushed.... (link to section)
  • Can link Central Europe: ... German troops from their territory and began charging into Central Europe. The western armies were advancing into Germany. The German... (link to section)
  • Can link The Germans: ...ral Europe. The western armies were advancing into Germany. The Germans had lost the war from a military perspective but Hitler all... (link to section)
  • Can link German military: ...peace talks with the Allied forces and as a consequence the German military continued to fight. By April 1945, the Soviet forces were a... (link to section)
  • Can link at the gates: ...y continued to fight. By April 1945, the Soviet forces were at the gates of Berlin. Hitler's closest lieutenants urged him to flee t... (link to section)
  • Can link Nazi leaders: ... doubt. ==Legacy== In his will, Hitler dismissed the other Nazi leaders and appointed Grand Admiral [[Karl Dönitz]] as the new [[Pr... (link to section)
  • Can link Grand Admiral: ...will, Hitler dismissed the other Nazi leaders and appointed Grand Admiral [[Karl Dönitz]] as the new [[President of Germany]] and [[J... (link to section)
  • Can link half-brother: ...er]] mother *[[Paula Hitler]] sister *[[Alois Hitler, Jr.]] half-brother... (link to section)
  • Can link HarperCollins: ...1 *[[Alan Bullock]], ''Hitler and Stalin: Parallel Lives'', HarperCollins, 1991, ISBN 0679729941 ... (link to section)
  • Can link Oxford University Press: ...542 *Brigitte Hamann, Thomas Thornton, ''Hitler's Vienna'', Oxford University Press; New Ed edition, 2000... (link to section)

Additionally, there are some other articles which may be able to linked to this one (also known as "backlinks"):

  • In Ásatrú, can backlink Adolf Hitler: ...ot widespread among the party ''(see [[Nazi Mysticism]])''. Adolf Hitler is quoted as opposing any open revival of belief in the Nor...
  • In Baptism for the dead, can backlink Adolf Hitler: ...umbus, Jewish Holocaust victims, Ghengis Khan, Joan of Arc, Adolf Hitler, Josef Stalin, and Buddha. Vicarious baptism does not mean ...
  • In Filippo Tommaso Marinetti, can backlink Adolf Hitler: ... value inherent for it regardless of context. In 1938 when Adolf Hitler included creations of Futurism in an exhibition, deriding w...
  • In Nuremberg, can backlink Adolf Hitler: ...se interested in the [[History of Germany]] overall. After Adolf Hitler came to power, Nuremberg was made a national shrine by the ...
  • In PR Watch, can backlink Adolf Hitler: ...ents in Bejing's Tiananman Square with neo-nazi claims that Adolf Hitler did not kill millions of European residents. [http://www.di...
  • In Toni Schumacher, can backlink Adolf Hitler: ...st hated man in France, and Schumacher managed to beat even Adolf Hitler (who finished second) into first place....
  • In Codename Garbo, can backlink Adolf Hitler: ...Operation Fortitude]] an effort that successfully convinced Adolf Hitler and many of the German high command to believe that the All...
  • In 1948 Arab-Israeli War, can backlink Adolf Hitler: ...es. An increase in Jewish immigration following the rise of Adolf Hitler led to the so-called [[Great Uprising]] from [[1936]] to [[...
  • In Libertarian National Socialist Green Party, can backlink Adolf Hitler: ...or, the National Socialist German Worker's Party (NSDAP) of Adolf Hitler, 1933–1945. Despite our identification with many part...
  • In IMZ-Ural, can backlink Adolf Hitler: ...tov-Ribbentrop Pact]]), against the German Third Reich, and Adolf Hitler, the ruthless dictator of Nazi Germany. Joseph Stalin order...
  • In Moselle, can backlink Adolf Hitler: ...''Gau Westmark'' at the armistice of [[June 22]], [[1940]]. Adolf Hitler considered Moselle and Alsace part of Germany....
  • In List of frequently misused English words, can backlink Adolf Hitler: ...amous'' is to be of exceedingly ill repute. **''Standard'': Adolf Hitler was an infamous dictator....
  • In Doctors' Trial, can backlink Adolf Hitler: ...ncil - not guilty * [[Karl Brandt]] - Personal physician to Adolf Hitler; Gruppenfuehrer in the SS and Generalleutnant (Major Genera...
  • In Gustav Krupp von Bohlen und Halbach, can backlink Adolf Hitler: ...airman of the Association of German Industrialists, and the Adolf Hitler Spende, a political fundraising organisation for the Nazis....
  • In Bucky O'Hare, can backlink Adolf Hitler: ... led by a vast computer system known as KOMPLEX, resembling Adolf Hitler in many ways. Bucky O' Hare was the Captain of a mammal fri...
  • In Eastern Front (WWII), can backlink Adolf Hitler: ...lin itself held useful post war strategic assets, including Adolf Hitler and the German atomic bomb programme....
  • In Walter Warlimont, can backlink Adolf Hitler: ...er of the high officer caste in favor of the German Führer: Adolf Hitler. On the basis of this memorandum, Hitler developed the “Ob...
  • In Thomas Sangster, can backlink Adolf Hitler: ... Robert Nobel''' *''Hitler: The Rise of Evil'' (2003) .... Adolf Hitler (10 yrs)...
  • In Rudolf von Sebottendorf, can backlink Adolf Hitler: ...;nchen Deutsche Arbeiterpartei]] (DAP). It was the DAP that Adolf Hitler was introduced to in 1919. By [[April 1]], [[1920]], the DA...
  • In La caduta degli dei, can backlink Adolf Hitler: ... how so called "German Upper Class Nobility" first resented Adolf Hitler, then accepted him, and at last embraced him....
  • In History of MoveOn.org, can backlink Adolf Hitler: ...d (neither of which became a finalist) had compared Bush to Adolf Hitler, a comparison that conservatives described as "political ha...
  • In Glossary of WWII German military terms, can backlink Adolf Hitler: ... volunteer *Führer -- leader, title given to exclusively to Adolf Hitler: Mein Fuhrer, Der Führer...
  • In Breitspurbahn, can backlink Adolf Hitler: ...ink to that site, too, thanx</i> Im Deutschen Reich plante Adolf Hitler eine (die) Breitspurbahn mit einer Spurweite von 3000 mm. M...
  • In Deutsche Reichsbahn Gesellschaft, can backlink Adolf Hitler: ...schaft was the German Federal Railways from 1920-1945. When Adolf Hitler died the DRG (as Der Deutsche Reichsbahn Gesselschaft was a...

Notes: The article text has not been changed in any way; Some of these suggestions may be wrong, some may be right.
Feedback: I like it, I hate it, Please don't link to — LinkBot 11:26, 1 Dec 2004 (UTC)

NPOV

Please keep in mind the neutrality policy. Hitler is widely regarded as having been among the worlds most successful oraters. The purpose of this article is to inform, not to convince people Hitler was bad. If they don't think he's bad already, reading a biased article won't convince them any. [[User:Sam Spade|Sam Spade Wants you to vote!]] 16:39, 8 Dec 2004 (UTC)


It is not a question of trying to promote certain feelings about Hitler. I am willing to try to find language that people can agree on but I have much more substantive objections. The sentence: "A gifted, charismatic orator possessed of a profound personal presence", has two significant problems.

First, the perhaps more minor problem is that, while Hitler was undoubtedly a sucessful and charismatic orator, there is often associated with oration a certain lyrical and literary quality that Hitler's oration lacked. I would not refer to him as a inherently gifted orator. Hitler spoke with great emotion and fervor, many would say vengeful rage, about topics that resonated with the German public. However I know of no historian or writer who thinks that Hitler had a great command of the German language in the way that Churchill or Lincoln did of theirs. Hitler himself often wrote his speeches, at least early in his career, and, like his writing, they are almost universally thought to have little or no literarly value. I dont think an assessment of writing ability is really such a subjective thing. If Hitler wrote like Churchill, German literary circles would not deny it. Admittledly, this is somewhat of a semantic problem with what one means by oration.

The second more substantive objection relates to Hitlers personal presence. I am not going to argue that this is purely a subjective notion. Certain people, like Martin Luther King for example, have been almost universally recognized to have had great charisma in private settings. Certain more sinister characters like Saddam Hussein are also fairly widely seen to have been personally charasmatic. The problem with applying this sort of language to Hitler is that one of the things he is known for is to have been, at least among a large minority, a very disappointing person to meet personally. Even Mussolini found him to be a very ascetic and somewhat withdrawn character. Hitler was also known for doing very poorly in social cirlces and he was not someone who was known, at least while he lacked power, to have had much of any sexual attractiveness to either sex. He had great difficulty rising above Corporal in the first World War despite a record of some distinction. Some think this was due to a bad psychological evaluation but it is almost certainly due to a lack of command presence. It is just a fact that over the course of Hitler's life many people found him to be repulsive or a non-entity, and this really affected his early life. Obviously this is only part of the story and he was undoubtedly charismatic in a sense. However he had to overcome a sort of lack of attractiveness in his personality that manifested itself over the course of his entire life. This is not someone who I would refer to as one who is "possessed of a profound personal presence". --Wtmgeo 17:31, 8 Dec 2004 (UTC)

We largely agree. In refering to his "profound personal presence", I ment his speech giving abilities. In that area, he is unmatched, regardless of his theoretical eloquence (I have heard both Hitler and Churchill give plenty of speeches, and Churchill has nothing on Hitler, regardless of vocabulary ;) Lets try finding a woring we can all agree to. Cheers, [[User:Sam Spade|Sam Spade Wants you to vote!]] 17:57, 8 Dec 2004 (UTC)
I have used the words "highly animated and charismatic". I could use language like "captivating" or "stirring", but for the reasons I have mentioned, I might shy away from a term like eloquence. I should say that I actually quite like the turn of phrase "possessed of a profound personal presence" and I understand that it applies to Hitler as a public figure and speaker. Maybe it could come later in relation to his speeches during his rise to power. By the way Churchill won the Nobel prize for literature and, while this was mostly for his history of WW2, it was also for a lifetime of literary achievement, including his oratory. --Wtmgeo 18:52, 8 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Its funny this would come up, because I have an enormous amount of WWII related speeches on MP3. I'm sure many have outdone me, but I've heard speeches (especially the more famous ones) by Churchill, FDR and Hitler an amazing amount of times (I play all my MP3's on shuffle). Anyhow, their talents are best interpreted by the effects they had on their intended audience, their respective publics, rather than their effects on us, or other critics. Cheers, [[User:Sam Spade|Sam Spade Wants you to vote!]] 21:51, 8 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Bal Thackery and Hitler

To the anonymous poster who keeps adjusting the Thackeray reference:

(1) The reference to Thackery is *entirely* appropriate for the section of the article which concerns Hitler's legacy. You have claimed that "no indian group or political leader supports Hitler's philosophy or ideology", but Thackeray's own words suggest otherwise. Here are a few quotes from an AsiaWeek article, dated 1995:

"BOMBAY'S BALASHAHEB "BAL" THACKERAY, 68, does not object to the assertion that he is a demagogue - he openly revels in it. A short time after telling an Indian newspaper that he wanted to be the "Hitler of India" he repeated the claim - with pride - to Asiaweek."

[...]

"[Interviewer]: You recently described yourself as the Hitler of Bombay, and you have expressed a desire to be the Hitler of India. Is that correct?

[BT]: Why not? I am a great admirer of Hitler, and I am not ashamed to say so! I do not say that I agree with all the methods he employed, but he was a wonderful organizer and orator, and I feel that he and I have several things in common. Look at the amount of good we have done in just six months in Maharashtra. Actually, we have too much sham-democracy in this country. What India really needs is a dictator who will rule benevolently, but with an iron hand."

Check out [www.asiaweek.com/asiaweek/95/0922/nat5.html] for the full interview.

A few years ago, when he was trying to pass himself off as a "moderate", Thackeray backed away from statements like these (or claimed he was misinterpreted). Notwithstanding which, it would be a difficult task to gloss over the presence of at least some support for "Hitler's philosophy or ideology" in the quote referenced above. </understatement mode off>

(2) Given that a reference to Thackeray is appropriate, it also seems appropriate to mention that he leads Shiv Sena, a right-wing Hindu nationalist party which embraces the principles of Hindutva, and has become even more militant in support of these principles since the BJP's defeat last year. (In passing, I can only imagine that Shiv Sena's own drubbing in the recent Maharashtra poll will push it even further toward its core constituency on this issue.)

If you want to mention that *not all* of supporters of Hindutva agree with Thackeray's views on Hitler, that might be fine. (Though in that case it should also be noted that *many* authors have drawn parallels between Hindutva and fascism.)

(3) This isn't really relevant to the article at hand, but I might add in passing that Thackeray's support for the destroyers of the Ayodhya mosque, and his party's general policy towards India's Muslim population, have some parallels with the conduct of the Nazi regime toward minority groups.

Comparing modern leaders to Hitler is usually a cop-out, but since Thackeray himself has invited the comparison ... well, let's just say it seems appropriate under the circumstances. CJCurrie 00:41, 11 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Its beyond slanderous to claim that the attitude of Hindutva towards Muslims is somehow on par with Nazi policies towards minority groups.

Which is not what I was claiming, either in the main body of the article or in this dicussion. I have read opinion pieces which describe Hindutva as a perversion of Hinduism, and as having been directly inspired by Hitler and Mussoloni; I am not, however, in a position to give authoritative comment on this controversy one way or the other. I *did* claim that (i) Bal Thackeray, who leads a Hindutva party, has expressed admiration of Hitler, and (ii) that the Shiv Sena's policy toward minority groups has "some parallels" with the policies of the Nazi regime. I stand by both of these comments, though in the interests of keeping this discussion on topic I would agree to set the second point aside. CJCurrie 02:10, 11 Dec 2004 (UTC)

In the context of this article, its a gross exaggeration. The Nazis had an explicitly racist and malicious agenda of systemized exclusion, revocation of citizenship, and ultimate elimination with regards to the Jews and other undersirables.

The BJP has advocated nothing of the sort towards the Islamic community, and has mainly pushed for a Uniform Civil Code and called for Muslims to do more to assimilate within mainstream Indian society.

This beside the point -- I wasn't talking about the BJP, nor did I accuse the Hindutva movement as a whole of endorsing Thackeray's praise of Hitler. CJCurrie 02:10, 11 Dec 2004 (UTC)

This is in fact the diametric opposite of the Nazi regime's disposition towards the Jews, whom it deliberately attempted to exclude and eventually destroy. Even the Shiv Sena, which is far more extreme than the BJP, has not voiced sentiment that could be construed as aiming at the extermination of the Muslims on par with the Nazi atrocities.

As far as the Ayodhya issue is concerned, Im not going to get into a long-winded debate over the subject, but lets just say that attempting to build a temple on what is one of the most holiest sites in Hinduism is a far cry from Krstallnacht.

Its not simply that not *all* of Hindutva followers are sympathetic towards Hitler, there isnt even a minority which is. Mainstream Hindutva organizations like the RSS and VHP have never published anything that can even remotely be construed as being supportive of Hitler's philosophy of genocide and discrimination. To conflate the fact that Thackeray is an admirer of Hitler with his party's acceptance of Hindutva is simply shading the truth.

So make a case in the main article that not all (or even many, as the case may be) supporters of Hindutva follow Thackeray on this point. This still doesn't nullify the description of Shiv Sena as "right-wing Hindu nationalist" and "Hindutva", nor does it make such a description inappropriate in this article. CJCurrie 02:10, 11 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Anyone else have any thoughts on this? CJCurrie 02:10, 11 Dec 2004 (UTC)

I have a thought. This thought is that people who primarily want to make points about politics and politicians in India should find another place on Wikipedia to do so. References to Hitler are a fine way to strike ones political opponents over the head or to put ones foot in ones mouth, as this guy Bal Thackery has evidently done, but what relevance do they have to a very short biography of Hitler? Why dont you create another page titled something like "Hitler as a modern political device", and take your debate there. --Wtmgeo 06:23, 11 Dec 2004 (UTC)

It's relevant to section dealing with Hitler's legacy, and to the choice of wording therein. I realize it's a bit odd to have a discussion this long concerning the inclusion or exclusion of four or five words in the main article, but the basic point is on-topic.
Anyway, I've thought of a compromise: what if we just describe the Shiv Sena as "right-wing Hindu nationalist" without referencing Hindutva? CJCurrie 22:11, 11 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Hitler's testicles

This article has a section "Medical health .... Hitler's medical health has long been the subject of debate, and he has variously been suggested to suffer ... and a missing left testicle.". Is this last item from valid medical evidence or other genuine reports? Or does it only refer to the common vulgar song "Hitler's only got one ball ..."? I see no purpose in merely commemorating an obscene traditional popular song here. (Even if the report is valid, it may refer to cryptorchidism rather than to complete absence.) Anthony Appleyard 08:11, 11 Dec 2004 (UTC)

  • Allegedly, it goes back to an autopsy performed supposedly after the Russians discovered the body in Berlin. However, accounts are so varied, it's almost hard to know what to believe. Some accounts say Hitler's body was never recovered, others say that only a skull fragment was recovered, and another said his body was burned in the street and the Russians only found the charred corpse. But then again there are those who think Hitler escaped to South America, and that the U.S. State Department issued a wanted poster depicting Hitler with different hair styles, etc. on several occasions...even as late as 15 years after WWII ended. Who knows? —ExplorerCDT 08:19, 11 Dec 2004 (UTC)
My German friend insists he fled to Austria, where he died peacefully of old age. The testicle bit was claimed even before his death, and was allegedly "proven" by that dubious russian autopsy you refered to. It should stay, but we shouldn't give it much respect either. I recommend you guys come help out over on Hitler's Death. Cheers, [[User:Sam Spade|Sam Spade Wants you to vote!]] 10:26, 13 Dec 2004 (UTC)
If there's no evidence, there's no fact. If no one has a reliable source that can be verified (i.e. official documentation of some sort), then the one-ball thing is nothing but rumor. Looking at the entry on Catherine The Great, I don't see any mention of her rumored sexual prediliction for horses - and for good reason; unverifiable rumors are out of place in an objective evaluation - so there wouldn't seem to be any point in leaving in rumors about any other famous / infamous person either, except in intentional violation of neutral POV to discredit the subject. It should just be stricken, as should the other rumors, until such time as someone can supply official sources of some sort for them. (unsigned) 63.80.207.34 14:31, 8 Feb 2005

Not only things that have been proven should be recorded in an encyclopedia article. If a legend is associated with a historical character, and that legend is significant (as is the case with Hitler's rumored monorchidism) then the fact of the legend should be recorded. --Tony Sidaway|Talk 16:51, 8 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Disambiguation notice

There was until very recently a notice at the top of this article:

"Hitler" redirects to this page. For other people named Hitler, see Hitler (disambiguation).

In my view it was a useful link. Everyking and I cannot agree on whether it is "clutter." Everyking has placed it under "Hitler's family" which makes sense. On balance I think I still prefer to have it at the top. Any other people with preferences? --[[User:Tony Sidaway|Tony Sidaway|Talk]] 07:18, 13 Dec 2004 (UTC)

it should be on top of this page, these people are not all Hitlers family. [[User:Sam Spade|Sam Spade Wants you to vote!]] 10:22, 13 Dec 2004 (UTC)

question

  • first: is there doubt about his suicide in the bunker?
  • is it true that he was on cocaine? perhaps a rumor page /section would be nice

See:

The short answers are: yes, there is loads of doubt from everybody who has looked into his death with any kind of interest, and it was meth he was on, not coke. He didn't know that was what it was tho, his doctor told him it was the super-soldier serum, or vitimins, or some such. [[User:Sam Spade|Sam]] Spade wishes you a merry Christmas! 22:00, 20 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Hitlerjugend

A brief section on the Hitler Youth might be a good idea (and not in the form of "Hitler was brainwashing youth to be his unquestioning fully obedient soldiers" but in terms of the focus on athletics and companionship and so on).

Wannsee/Final Solution

This section of the document is severely flawed.

It is still only speculation that the "Final Solution" (being genocide) was decided here, or that the Final Solution even meant killing of the Jews. Anyone can read the Wannsee minutes, where they clearly talk about EVACUTION of the Jews and removing them from "all spheres of German life", not of removing them from the face of the planet.

For all Holocaust believers or generally average schmoes who learn their "history" piecemeal from movies and TV shows and what have you, they really believe that at Wannsee Hitler ordered genocide of the Jews, which is utter nonsense. It can be inferred that remaining Jew (after all other solutions being exhausted) "dealt with accordingly" meant killing them, but that alone is certainly no evidence of a systematic plan to slaughter every Jew in europe.

Okay, I've taken the libery and performed some editing myself. I believe it to be NPOV and rather fair to both sides of the debate. I have not denied there was a Holocaust (despite my personal beliefs) but I have made a far more accurate and informed edit about Wannsee (and Himmler's comments stating "we can not gas them or shoot them").

I put a lot of work into that, so please do not hastily revert it. Re-edit as you see fit, but to remove valid and complete facts in favour of half-facts which carry a different meaning, I hope that won't done....

I agree that the initial goal of the solution was evacuation of the Jews, but that doesn't change the fact that they weren't. If he didn't know what was happening in MANY of his camps, then that's no excuse; the buck stops with Hitler. If his men misinterpreted the order, he had more than enough time to correct them. --Golbez 18:40, Dec 25, 2004 (UTC)
Well that was a waste of time, reverted already. Hitler was already seriously sick by 1942, by the way, and I don't just mean physically. Many articles on Wikipedia on WWII are NPOV, like Nuremberg_Trials, like Laconia_Incident and so on, but EVERY SINGLE ONE mentioning the holocaust is completely POV, and the slightest mention that it was anything other than pre-meditated genocide of all Jews is not allowed, ditto for any comment about the alleged 6 million (which is in dispute even by some hardcore Zionist Jews in Israel).
Why do you think that is? Frankly, the whole issue turns my stomach.
Except, er, it was premeditated genocide. --Golbez 18:58, Dec 25, 2004 (UTC)
For the previous guy who does not believe that 6 million Jews died as a result of a systematically planned Nazi extermination: you will probably have to erase a lot of historical resources in order to convince the other people about your unusual point of view. I've read a lot of resources myself. I know pretty well the history that led to the murder of all 2600 Jews in Pilsen, my hometown. And if you're promoting your "NPOV", be careful: if you're in Germany, you may be arrested for spreading your unusual opinion because holocaust deniers are treated as criminals in that country. Be grateful that I am only treating you as a stinky Nazi. --Lumidek 22:48, 25 Dec 2004 (UTC)
I don't think that intimidation, however veiled, is appropriate in an academic discussion. Additionally - laws are neither always just, nor always objective, and our concern here is objectivity, not legality. A perspective is not "void" merely because it defies the law. Finally: why does the section on the Holocaust speak only of the systemic murder of Jews at first, then slip the other millions of human beings who were murdered by the Nazis into the story two sentences down? Gypsies, gays, and handicapped people are NOT second-rate humans, and the human tragedy of a murdered Jew does not outweigh the human tragedy of a murdered Communist. I would very much like to see fair consideration given to those exterminated by the Nazis. It's certainly important to mention that Jews comprised well over half of the victims, but let's make sure that we're not painting the holocaust as a Jewish event, with "everyone else" relegated to a role as supporting cast.

Poetsch

The article says Poetsch gave anti-Semetic lectures and yet "was not anti-semitic at all." Is this actually true? It sounds a lot like a contradiction borne of editor differences. Deco 11:55, 28 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Regarding the Confessing church, it was a protestant organization, and it prompted action against protestant (in particular Lutheran) clergy, not Catholic, as was stated in the article.


Disclaimer

The article is blatantly not neutral, and would require a complete rewrite to make it so. Any fair minded person can see that talking about Hitler in glowing terms when so much of the world considers him evil is unconscionable. Until such time a disclaimer must be put in place. --69.158.175.185 16:56, 31 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Then use the standard templates for NPOV disputes, however please read NPOV first. What's more, your "disclaimer" is anything but neutral. Lastly I'd advise you to accustomise yourself with wikipedia a little more before you start making such claims. --fvw* 17:05, 2005 Jan 31 (UTC)
There is no template that says what the disclaimer says. A strong disclaimer is required to counter the bias of the article. I have quite a bit of experience with Wikipedia, that's why I'm not logged in. --69.158.175.185 17:11, 31 Jan 2005 (UTC)
I think you need to explain how this article is biased. I just reread it, and to me it sounds like a relatively neutral, factual account of Hitler's life. Please read the section above headed NPOV, and remember that it is not our job to convince people that Hitler was evil. DJ Clayworth 17:57, 31 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Hitler's New World Order

Is there any information about the New World Order Hitler was trying to create? I think that there should be an article about it. All I know is that he wanted to colonize the Ukraine with SS guards and their families, and Germany would extend up to Moscow and beyond.