Talk:Adolf Hitler/Archive 5

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Archive This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.

Contents

Anti-semitism?

I've heard allegations that he was anti-semitic, is this true?

Karl Ossietz?

Has anyone heard of Karl Ossietz? I've recently placed this article up for votes for deletion, because I can't find any good information on him via Internet searches. I'd appreciate any info anyone has to add at Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/Karl Ossietz. Thanks. func(talk) 23:17, 23 Oct 2004 (UTC)

I found him mentioned in an Allen Churchill book from 1979 called Eyewitness Adolf Hitler. I believe it was from a letter that this Karl Ossietz was mentioned as Hitler's personal astrologer. Eyewitness

Uniball?

So is that saying about Hitler having only one testicle an urban legend or does it have basis in reality?

See Hitler has only got one ball Mintguy (T) 02:26, 25 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Link to annexion of Austria in header

I linked to the page about the the specific term for the annexion of Austria (Anschluss) in the article header as well. While the "Anschluss" page is not a great article yet, I think the topic is important enough (as one of the main causes of the war) to deserve a link in the header... - Marcika 00:15, 26 Oct 2004 (UTC)

npov

Hitler’s Mein Kampf is not widely available in Germany. His legacy, as interpreted by some historians, has caused him to be one of the most denounced men in history. Other historians, however, point out that Hitler's attempt to improve the economic and political standing and conditions of his people and how he went about it, was, in essence, no different than that of many other leaders in history and thus this denouncement is hypocritical and not completely objective.

How was Hitler "no different" than leaders like Churchill or FDR? At least they didn't gas people in attempting to improve economic and political standing. Who were the historians who said this denouncement is hypocritical and not not objective? This all sounds very stupid to me and should be edited. Wareware 04:44, 28 Oct 2004 (UTC)

The paragraph is completely NPOV. The historians you are scoffing at are referred to as "revisionist" generally, and there are lots of them. If you want the article to say "Hitler was a horrible, horrible man, worst guy ever, yadayadayada" your in the wrong place. Please review NPOV. If you have some sources you'd like to cite showing some general sentiment regarding Hitler, feel free. Sam [Spade] 14:55, 28 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Can you name some of these revisionists? Are they legitimate revisionist historians, or are they merely writers of revisionist history? Jayjg 16:09, 28 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Of course I can, David Irving, Ernst Zündel, James Bacque, Ernst Mayo, etc... If thats not a long enough list for you, I'm sure a few dozen more can be come up w if everybody pitches in ;) And of course you don't think their legitamate! Revisionist history is a word for historians people don't like. The point is, not everybody is unanimous is saying Hitler was wicked beyond all measure. Sam [Spade] 22:11, 28 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Oh, and BTW, my opinion, that the guy was demented from too much methamphetimines, qualudes, and syphillis, and even if he had been mentally with it wouldn't have known much about the micro-management anyhow due to fuhrerprinzp, is a fairly common take also, even amongst "respected" historians (to be frank I don't know if I respect any historians, but thats a story for another day ;) Sam [Spade] 22:15, 28 Oct 2004 (UTC)
I'm not surprised that some of these people are also holocaust denialists. Wareware 22:17, 28 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Their all holocaust denialists, I went to the holocaust denial page and copied a few names down quick ;) Sam [Spade] 22:27, 28 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Got it. Editing to reflect. Jayjg 23:09, 28 Oct 2004 (UTC)


He wife?

Nazi mysticism

For who ever removed this reference, have you read the article, or the refrences for it? I can give you reams of info on the subject. As far as Hitler or Nazism being popular in some parts of the Islamic world... of course I can find some cites, but is it really necessary? Do you actually dispute that? Sam [Spade] 13:43, 6 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I just saw Andries edit. As far as how many people worship Hitler as a deity, or view him as an Avatar of Vishnu, I am concerned about the possibility of verifying that. I know that the concept has been involved with both Hindu nationalism (a huge movement in India), with South american politics, and of course with Black metal, and neo-nazi Ásatrú scene. Quantifying this seems to me a difficult matter. Sam [Spade] 14:13, 6 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I did read the links. There's not really much there about Hitler being 'worshipped as a deity'. Just a reference to one guy, Devi, viewing him as an Avatar of Vishnu. You also say that you are concerned about the possibility of verifying it. In that case, it shouldn't be said. I also think this whole thing seems unconnected with Hitler, the man. And that's what this article's about. The page Nazi mysticism links into the Nazism page. Those who want to read about it can find it there, where it belongs. Unless you have evidence of Hitler encouraging or supporting attempts to deify him, that comment does not belong here. (Oh, and Hitler didn't reign either, only monarchs (kings, queens, emperors, etc.) reign.) jguk 14:55, 6 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Savitri Devi isn't a guy, she was a girl, I get the impression you didn't read very thoroughly. For example, see Miguel Serrano. Theres no problem verifying that some believe it, the problem is in quantifying the sheer numbers. Sam [Spade] 15:03, 6 Nov 2004 (UTC)

And that's your problem, not mine. And I find you calling me buck-o offensive and ask you to be more civil towards me. There's no reason why we cannot disagree civilly. You say can't begin to quantify numbers: 1,000s, 10,000s, 100,000s, more? IMHO you'd need at least tens of thousands worshipping him as a deity to make it noteworthy enough for an article. If you can't support your assertion with verifiable evidence of its noteworthiness, the assertion needs to go until you can. I ask you to leave the article as it is - provide evidence to support your views, and if it is deemed reliable enough by the wikicommunity, your statement can go back in.

The fact that I don't have a handy link to census data on an obscure cult like this one in no way makes it any less notable that the man is worshipped by some, and that many see a link between Nazism and the occult. Since you seem disinterested in my copious references, I have requested page protection. it would be nice if you researched a bit, but I suppose I can't force you. Sam [Spade] 16:10, 6 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I have added by point by point comments for each of your references (apart from the books, which I obviously can’t get at from my laptop) in bold. It is a crude way, but one that is effective in separating my comments from yours. They show that there is a very small number of people who argue that Hitler is an avatar of Vishnu. They do not quantify the number, but that number seems to be very small. Indeed, one of the articles you quoted was called ‘Nutty Nazis’. It is clear that this is a sub subtopic at the very most.

There is no disagreement that Nazi mysticism or Esoteric Hitlerism exist. And it is right that Wikipedia has articles covering them. But you have so far failed to prove that a significant number of people worship Hitler as a deity for that comment to remain in this article. It is not relevant to Hitler. I will add under ‘Related articles’ Esoteric Hitlerism. Nazi mysticism properly belongs as a link off Nazism rather than Hitler, and quite rightly it is already there.

I have now spent quite a bit of time reading your references. Many of which had little to offer on the subject at hand. If you want to quote further references to me, I should be grateful if you would ensure they are to the point, and in particular that they offer some sort of quantification of how many people worship Hitler as a deity. Until and unless you provide evidence of quantification, please do not reinsert your statement. You have not yet proven that it is relevant enough to Hitler, the man, to have in this article. Finally, perhaps we can keep our disagreement on this talk page rather than reverting each other. I agree that if you provide evidence to prove your claim is notable (which would include some quantification of those worshipping Hitler as a deity), your comment can return. I ask you agree that until you have done so, the comment stays out. jguk 16:53, 6 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I removed the point by point critiques, you can place them outside the links section itself if you care to, thank you very much. Sam [Spade] 18:33, 6 Nov 2004 (UTC)
OK, I was only trying to save space on this talk page. I have added the point by point rebuttal at the end of a 'clean' copy of your references. jguk 19:34, 6 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Hoorah! Sam [Spade] 00:25, 7 Nov 2004 (UTC)

References

Wikilinks

Books

  • Black Sun: Aryan Cults, Esoteric Nazism and the Politics of Identity by Nicholas Goodrick-Clarke, 2001, ISBN 0814731554 (reviews 1 2)
  • Arktos: The Polar Myth in Science, Symbolism, and Nazi Survival by Joscelyn Godwin, 1996, ISBN 0932813356
  • Himmler's Crusade: The Nazi Expedition to Find the Origins of the Aryan Race by Christopher Hale, Wiley 2003. ISBN 0471262927
  • The Unknown Hitler, Wulf Schwartzwaller, Berkeley Books 1990
  • Hitler's Priestess: Savitri Devi, the Hindu-Aryan Myth and Neo-Nazism, Nicholas Goodrick-Clarke, 1998. ISBN 0814731104

External links

A point by point rebuttal by jguk follows (the rebuttals are in bold):

Wikilinks

  • Nazi mysticism I am not disputing that this should be an article. And this article is correctly linked into Nazism. The article contains nothing to suggest it is anything but a sub subtopic for Hitler at the very most. This article is a summary article outlining the main features about Hitler, the man. You have not shown your point is notable enough to appear in this particular article.
  • Wewelsburg This article is about a castle. There is nothing in it to support the assertion that enough people deify Hitler for that point to be made in this article. In fact, there is nothing about deification in this article at all.
  • The Nexus (journal)This article is about a magazine. The only possible reference to Hitler being a deity in this article is a reference to a website called Priestess of Hitler:Savitri Devi by someone called Kerry Bolton. This article lends no support to your assertion.
  • Lanz von LiebenfelsThis article contains no assertions about Hitler being worshipped as a deity, not even by Lanz von Liebenfels, let alone anyone else. This article lends no support to your assertion
  • Karl Maria WiligutThis article makes no reference to Hitler, worshipping or deities. It lends no support to your assertion.
  • Nicholas Goodrick-ClarkeThis article makes one fleeting reference to a book called Hitler’s priestess, but says nothing about it. Is it about Savitri Devi??? No references to worshipping or deity (except to the book if you claim that is such a reference). Again, there is nothing in this article to support your assertion.
  • Julius EvolaNo mention of Hitler, let alone worshipping him as a deity. Again, this article does not support your assertion.
  • CosmotheismThe only reference to Hitler is in the phrase: Pierce's plan for white divinity was similar to Adolf Hitler's vision for the Herrenvolk. No mention of worshipping Hitler as a deity here either. Again, this article does not support your assertion
  • Kalki#NazismNo reference to Hitler, let alone worshipping him as a deity. This article does not support your assertion.
  • Savitri DeviThe closest you’ve come up with so far for any justification is the reference in this article to her proclaiming him an avatar of the Hindu god Vishnu. Not sure whether it is entirely fair to call this worshipping Hitler as a deity, but if I do count her in your support comment, you’ll have so far shown 1 person worshipping Hitler as a deity.
  • Miguel SerranoNo reference in this article to worshipping Hitler as a deity. This article does not support your assertion. I have not read his books, but judging by their titles, for now, I’ll put him in your support comment: total 2.
  • Sam, did you write that unrelated remark about Nazi Mysticism in Kalki?? I think you are a nice guy but you have strange ideas on Nazi Mysticism and the connection between Hitler and Kalki. And by the way, I support Jongarrettuk's revert. I think it was extremely rare that Hitler was worshipped as a deity, only Savitri Devi is a documented case. I personally have strong doubt that there ever was something as Nazi Mysticism. May be pseudo religion, and Himmler believed in the occult and had a mysticism hobby, but he was only one person. There were far more practicing Christians in the Nazi party than mystics but was not a Christian party. Andries 00:38, 26 Nov 2004 (UTC)
    • Sam, I am thinking about a request for comments because of the link to Nazi Mysticism. You keep inserting this wikilink in spite of Jongarettuk's reverts and my support of her/his revert. I would have little problem with a wikilink to a possible article Religious elements of Nazism here but real Nazi Mysticism is too rare and the word mysticism is too strong to be mentioned here. I agree that Nazism had aspects of a pseudo-religion (or even was a pseudo-religion) and this could be mentioned here. Andries 13:27, 1 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Books

  • Black Sun: Aryan Cults, Esoteric Nazism and the Politics of Identity by Nicholas Goodrick-Clarke, 2001, ISBN 0814731554 (reviews 1 This does not add anything more. I accept having Devi and Serrano in your column2)I am not sure how a review called Nutty Nazis of a book is meant to help you show that this is notable enough to go into an article about Hitler. The sentence ‘They revere Hitler and those who fell with him in World War II as martyrs to a holy cause.’ shows that, according to the author, most Nutty Nazis revere Hitler. That is nothing like worshipping him as a deity. Other sentences include: ‘They think that if they can first persuade people of a lot of false and silly notions, they will have an easier time of persuading them, eventually, of the truth….and, by the way, Hitler was the ninth Avatar of the God Vishnu, and many non-Whites in India worshipped him as a God, so he's all right……It is hard to persuade anybody of such false and kooky beliefs.’ There is a small list of figureheads in the Chapter 5 summary, that does boost your numbers though. I can add 15 to your total, and am willing to assume that they have a few followers. But we’re still not up to the level where this is notable enough FOR THIS ARTICLE.
  • Arktos: The Polar Myth in Science, Symbolism, and Nazi Survival by Joscelyn Godwin, 1996, ISBN 0932813356
  • Himmler's Crusade: The Nazi Expedition to Find the Origins of the Aryan Race by Christopher Hale, Wiley 2003. ISBN 0471262927
  • The Unknown Hitler, Wulf Schwartzwaller, Berkeley Books 1990

External links

quote from hitler anybody??

Complaints

In the first part of the article, there is no reason to say that Hitler was "reported to have committed suicide," when the suicide has been documented by many eyewitnesses and finally confirmed with the opening of the KGB files on the disposal and eventual total destruction of his remains.

The section on "Economics and Culture" is couched in terms that are far too positive and sympathetic. It also uses the term "civil improvement," which to American readers, at least, does not clearly denote public works projects, but sounds rather more like an improvement in society.

The sentence, " Hitler's health initiatives for ethnic Germans were successful and progressive," has a vaguely völkisch flavor and makes it sound as if he were a benevolent ruler; further, it is vague to the point of meaninglessness, since there is no explanation of the term "health initiatives."

The sentence, " Hitler's policies emphasised the importance of family life: men were the breadwinners, women’s priorities being Church, Kitchen and Children," similarly sounds as if it were written by a right-wing admirer of Kinder, Kuche, Kirche (in American terms: barefoot and pregnant) -- in other words, a blatant sexist.

The next sentence, "Excellence was encouraged in all spheres," may be true in some very limited sense, but I don't think Wiki should put itself in the position of making such a blandly positive statement about the greatest mass murderer of all time who in the process of "encouraging excellence" burned and banned great literature, confined German art to puerile representiveness and caused many of the country's leading artists and scientists to flee to the U.S. and other countries.

User:sca 8nov04

practically nobody agrees about Hitlers death, except they al wanted him dead, Even stalin doubted the account. The eventual total destruction of his remains is even more eveidence that something fishy occured. Overall, I find your complaints to be of the NPOV nature of the article, not something that aught to be "fixed". Sam [Spade] 20:29, 8 Nov 2004 (UTC)
You ought to say ought, not aught, which has a different meaning and is archaic.

You ought to capitalize the beginnings of your sentences. As to "nobody" agreeing about Hitler's death -- you ought to have your head examined.

User:sca
Oi... [1][2][3].
Sam [Spade] 02:13, 9 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Hitler Pictures

Why are all of the pictures of him relatively sympathetic? Although it's also bias to always show him screaming at a microphone, please show both if you will.

Well, they're good pics. If you can find a public domain or GFDL shot of him screaming at a microphone, please supply it. Thanks! --Golbez 02:46, Nov 18, 2004 (UTC)


hey people im doing a report and i need quotes help ?

Protestant Christianity?

I had always thought Hitler was Catholic by background. CJCurrie 03:32, 18 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Dispute zentrum

"intimidated" in describing the actions of the Centre Party,Germany is disputed and the dispute broadens to the error in claiming on its' page that the Catholic Centre Party (Zentrumspartei) was " dissolved by Hitler ". See also Pope Pius XII .Flamekeeper 09:22, 27 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Sir John Wheeler-Bennett in The Nemesis of Power-The German Army in Politics 1918-1945 indexes the Centre Party's condonation of Nazism after Hitler gained the Chancellorship and came therefore to power in 1933 . Wheeler-Bennett says that the Centre , whatever its mental reservations ,condoned his Government by voting for him .Flamekeeper 10:39, 27 Nov 2004 (UTC)

November Republic

I came across in some writings Hitler referring to the November Republic. Now I assume (and am pretty confident) that this is the same as the Weimar Republic, but I wanted to have this confirmed before I went ahead and made a redirect. I assume someone here can back me up (or correct me if I'm mistaken). I was going to write this at the Weimar talk page, but this one has tons more traffic. -R. fiend 20:58, 27 Nov 2004 (UTC)

correct. This was Hitler's derogatory term for the republic that was founded after the defeat in November that he attributed to traitors, communists and Jews. Andries 21:03, 27 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Thanks. Made it a redirect. -R. fiend 21:13, 27 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Hitler's Death and Controversies Surrounding It

I saw this on Unsolved Histories on Discovery Channel, it's title is Hitler in the Andes.

They said that the FBI had an eleven year investigation of wheter or not he died. Seeing that much of the information available that time were propaganda, wheter it was from the Allies, the Nazis, the Russian, and several other parties, do anyone here has any info or fact about this investigation?

Oh yeah, if Hitler's body was cremated, how can there be a Soviet autopsy that revealed that he has only one testicle? Just curious. --Vandal Unknown 19:58, 29 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Maybe you'd like to read the article on Hitler's death jguk 20:30, 29 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Ah, thank you, though I didn't find the link in the "Related Topics" list. Sorry for wasting your time. --202.162.199.252 14:45, 30 Nov 2004 (UTC)