Talk:Adolf Hitler/Archive 21

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Hitler was a Christian

I found it odd that this fact was no where to be found anywhere in the main body of thie article. I at least added that fact that Adolf Hitler had a strict Catholic upbringing (ironically of the type that supposedly produces moral, virtuous people), and that he was an altar boy in his youth. I also stated he remained a Christian,and mentioned that fact that he made Christian school prayer mandatory for the 1930's German schoolchildren, who could later be part of his SS. Any objections? Giovanni33 09:35, 1 February 2006 (UTC)

Re the recent edits by Giovanni33:

  • "Adolf Hitler had a strict Catholic upbringing."
Basically true, though "strict" is one of these epithets used without proper definine what they are supposed to mean. And it is an upbringing he soon rebelled against.
  • "He was an altar boy in his youth ..."
Also true but hardly a fact worth mentioning.
  • "...and remained a professed Christian throughout lifetime."
That's a POV-inspired intrusion of inaccurate information, meant to smear Christianity.
  • "Later he would make Christian school prayer mandatory for the 1930's German schoolchildren."
Irrelevant to his childhood, meant to associate Christianity and Nazism, and not even completely accurate. There was schoolprayer in German schools at the time. Can you give evidence for Hitler directly ordering schoolprayer?
BTW, the SS was a decidedly non-Christian and especially non-Catholic organisation.Str1977 09:39, 1 February 2006 (UTC)
One other point. You insinuate that it was his Catholic upbringing that he soon rebelled against. This is not accurate. Besides that fact that Hitler was raised strictly Catholic, wrote admiringly of the monks and the abbot (at a monastery in Lambach, Austria near his home which was adorned with numerous swastikas, obviously the inspiration for the Nazi flag), he served as an altar boy and a choir boy, and for two years, and seriously contemplated becoming a Catholic priest himself. What Hitler may have been rebelling against was the strict disciplinarian parenting; Hitler's father was an extremely strict, disciplinarian parent. He actually wanted to study art and architecture, but his father forced him to go to a technical high school where his marks were atrocious, and he dropped out. Giovanni33 11:15, 1 February 2006 (UTC)
You should know that Hitler took the Swastika from the Thule Society, regardless of what a abbot may or may not have done.
Hitler rebelled against all of his upbringing. BTW, what makes his upbringing so Catholic? Where did you get the 'contemplated becoming a priest' bit from? Also, it wasn't his father that thwarted his architecture plans. Str1977 11:56, 1 February 2006 (UTC)
I tried to modify these staments in a way that would be accurate (just referriing the facts) and satisfy bith sides. As an atheist, I unserstand the temptation to associate Hitler, Cathlocism, relgios, eveil, etc... but things are not quite that simple in reality. Hitler was a very bizarre sort of Christian, if he can be called a Chrisrian at all. He was certainly not an observant Christian by any stretch. Though he was not as far-out in his neo-pagn mysticism as Himmler and others in the party, he shared some of these ideas. He also perscuted many Catholcis and Christians of all stripes, reneging on the terms of the Concordat. In sum, his real religion seems to have been "blood and race" with some elements of mytsical self-deification and Chritianty thrown in. Above all, he used religion to serve his purposes. the same is true of Musslolini whi was an avowed Marxist atheist until he realized that Catholicism and othet poweful instutiions could be useful to serve his desire for self-aggarndizement and control.

One can ceratinly discuss Christianitys contribution to the Holocaust and to what degree the Catholic Chriuch of the time could have done more to speak out and oppose Hitler's actions, etc.. But Hitler was not really a stand-up Catholic who would hava had different ideas had he been a Muslim, an atheist or a pagan philosopher.--Lacatosias 10:10, 1 February 2006 (UTC)--Lacatosias 10:10, 1 February 2006 (UTC)

I absolutely agree, Lacatosias. Even if he considered himself a Christian (and how far that was propaganda speech or honest belief), it was a Christianity devoid of the Christian core beliefs. Despite some people disputing this, there are at least some standards that define Christianity and Christian belief. That's true for Christianity in general and it is even more true for Catholicism with its magisterium. Hitler was no atheist, and he neither was a neo-pagan as Himmler or Heß. His religion consisted of an amalgam of belief in as a all-stearing "providence", "racial struggle for survival" in the social-Darwinian sense (and according to that logic he in the end wanted Germany to perish as "unfit"), Wagnerian aesthetics, Blut und Boden, the sublimity of nature and stars etc. Whether he actually believed in a non-Jewish Jesus or just used this merely as a propaganda tool is unclear. Str1977 11:56, 1 February 2006 (UTC)
Greeting my fellow atheist. I appreciate your trying to at keep these facts in the article but I'd like to dipute a few of your points, if I may. Its true that Hitler did not practiced your next-door neighbour's version of Christianity, but neither to many Christians who are still called Christians. Its the nature of the Bible itself that lends itself to even exteme directions given the power of interpetations. Christianity itself, is in part, and outgroud and developent of Pagan relgions. Its true that some of Hitler's underlings promoted a bastardized form of Christianity into which they mixed elements of Norse mythology, but no one in the Nazi regime ever spoke against Christianity, and Hitler publicly, loudly, repeatedly professed his Christian faith. The only way to view the Nazis as anything but a Christian state is to distort the facts beyond recognition; a pagan state would not pray to Jesus in its schoolrooms or enter into a concordat with the Catholic church. The tinge of Norse mysticism was only intended to create a particular Teutonic flavour of Christianity for the purpose of enhancing German racial pride, not to oppose or remove Christianity.
Yes, there's a problem when people decide to interpret the Bible as they wish, without regard to tradition etc. As a Catholic I am aware of that.
No one in the Nazi regime ever spoke against Christianity? Give me a break! What about Röhm, Himmler, Heß, Rosenberg, Goebbels?
The Third Reich was no pagan state, and Hitler was not one of the pagans in his movements. But the Nazification of the state happened only gradually. Str1977 11:56, 1 February 2006 (UTC)
Lets see your references that support that those in the Nazi regime spoke against Christianity. There has been propaganda of this nature but it has been completely debunked. Im curious about what source you might be using to establish this claim. Giovanni33 12:37, 1 February 2006 (UTC)
Still, based on all credible sources including his own seminal Mein Kampf, he did believe in Jesus Christ, the supreme being, Heaven and Hell, divine judgement, expulsion from paradise, etc. There is no serious historical doubt that the roots of his anti-Semitism came from the Viennese Christian Social movement, or that he was inspired by Martin Luther (on whose birthday the infamous Kristallnacht occurred), who wrote the infamous racist screed "On Jews And Their Lies". Are we to believe that he admired these men and followed in their footsteps but was not influenced by their beliefs? The harsh reality is that there is no credible evidence whatsoever for the notion that Hitler was not a Christian.
As for his beliefs, see my comments above.
The rationale behind my removing Luther was
a) that it didn't fit into the flow (you placed into the midst of an already existing text) and
b) that you didn't provide evidence for the idea that Hitler was directly influenced by Luther's anti-Jewish book.
He might have read it later and of course looked favourably on Luther for that (and for other reasons - Luther was considered a national hero against the "Römlinge"), but how was it formative. Hitler's reading in Vienna was more directed at Ostara booklets and the like.
Your info about the Kristallnacht is totally wrong. Luther was born on 10 November and baptized a day later (hence he was called Martin). The Kristallnacht, as any student of the period will tell you, was on 9 November because this was the anniversary of the failed putsch of 1923, which itself was placed on the anniversary of the 1918 revolution. Str1977 11:56, 1 February 2006 (UTC)
Lets remember that the worldwide Christian community at the time was strongly anti-semitic, and collectively gave little help to the Jews. The idea that they fought to save the Jews was invented after the war. The historical fact is that the Allies knew about the horrors of the concentration camp by the start of 1942, from spy networks and the eyewitness accounts of escapees, but no one cared. Anti-semitism was powerful and omnipresent.
This is the other point I wanted to address, but I was in a huge rush when I posted below. You seem to fail to distinguih here bwteen governements and citizens. It may well be the case that many governements did not respond adequetealy (I've heard convincing arguments both for and agaist this idea) when they found out about the extremination of Jews. On the other hand, a very large number of Italian, French, German, etc. citizens (this is something I am espcailly proud of as an Italian BTW) put ther lives at stake to protect the Jews. Many of them were Christians, many of them were not. But, in ancy case, you are eneging in extreme overgeneraliztions by suggesting that Christians "collectively gave little help to the Jews." Thus would be very hard to establish even if true becasue so many did give help (or tried to) that we don't even know about. Anti-semtitims was cartnly powerful, I garee, but not omnipresent.--Lacatosias 12:39, 1 February 2006 (UTC)
Do you have any proof for that? No. And Hitler certainly did aks "the worldwide Christian community" - what is important for him was the millieu he was born into, the Upper Austrian society which was more nationalist/pan-german than other parts of Austria.
Of course the allies didn't fight primarily to save the Jews, they fought to defend themselves and their allies, but in the end also to defend civilization and Hitler's atrocities were a huge part of why civilization was considered at stake, why "rooting out Nazism" was considered the objective and not merely beating Germany and making terms. Str1977 11:56, 1 February 2006 (UTC)
Yes, it is true that Hitler pesecuted and killed Christians too. But the medieval Catholics killed Christians for disobedience too; does this make them not Christian? George W. Bush approved of the execution of many criminals who were Christian; does this make him not one? The question is not whether Hitler killed or persecuted Christians; the question is why? When one considers that Hitler himself openly professed his Christian faith in both his writings and public speeches, and when one considers the specific actions for which Christians were arrested and killed, it's obvious that they were killed for actively opposing his government, not for being Christian. This is entirely different from his hatred of Jews (whose only crime was their religion and race) and Slavs (whose only crime was citizenship in a "Godless Bolshevik" state). Giovanni33 10:59, 1 February 2006 (UTC)
I don't have time to respond in detail toeverything yo have written, cartainly now the part below. I will only observae that I agree with most of what you are saying, foe example, with regard to the extraordinary climate of racist anti-semitism at the time and that, in large part, this anti-semitisism was, and still is, attributiablt to the powerful ancient Christian propaganda that "the Jews killed the Christ." This idea arise from the dire necessity that many Chrisians, and ecpsially the Chriatian gopel writers felt, to disscoaite themslves from the Jews as quikly and as profounfly as possibke so as to curr favor with the Roman authrorities (or at leats to prevent persecution). Hence, the portrayal still to this day, in fundamentalist movies like Mel Gibson's "Passion of Christ", of the Jews as having such a prominent and particualr role in the persuction and executions of Jesus. But this is all to one side. Chritianity is always lurjing in the background, I agree. But by the time Hitler has obtained power, there was already a movement under way called "scienctific racism" which did away with all of the relgious elements and attempted to establish that certain races were superior to others by nature and this could be proven scintifically by IQ testing, caranian weighing, phrenology and what have you. Also, there were the nationalist movements of the late 19th century which depicted Jews as inferior because they did not, in fact, HAVE a nATION, but were a "bunch of vagaobonds, exolitive parasites who tened to concentrate theor energies on bacnking and fincance (since they had been excluded from almost all other activities and parts of society, where elese coud they have gone??) and on and on. Then there was the perception that somehow commnism and the Jews were related in a compirayc to overthrow the planet (this fear was easily fostered in a time of extraodinry crisis and tumult). So, my poijnt is this: how exctly is it possiblt to identify how much of Adolf Hitler's particualr form of anti-semtisism was attribateblt to something he read out of Martin Luther, from the general climate of anti-semitis in Western civilation after thiusand of years of Chritian persucation, and how much to the ideas of Wagner and other nationist anti-semites or to the eeugenics movemnt which he prasied so hgigly and which was so successful in the Unieted States?
If you say, "Mather Luther influedned the formation of anti.semitism in Adolf Hitler" this is a very spefific stateent and I will need to see your evidence for such an assertion. The same is true fot the Viensse Chritian scoiety which you referref to. If you can back it up, go ahead and do so,. Otherwise, it can't be put into an encyelopedia artcile in an case. My other observation was that I think you are mistaken that "No Nazi ever critizied or condemend Chstianity". I remember reading very harsh condemnations and some explicit declaration that ultimately the Catholic church would have to be eleimated. I don't have sources, so I will rely on the historicans out theere to back me up on this point.

Was Adolf Hitelr a Christian? As I said,I perosoanlly think he was in a bizarre way. As you point out, in Mein Kampf, he wrote about his belief in the resurecction of Christ. Well, that means he was, at least, a professed Christian. This should be noted in the artcile. It should also be noted that he was atracted to strange occult and Nordic ideas as well. But, what Iìm really wondering is where you intend to go with this point?? Even if he was somewhat Christian (he undenibaly has a Chsrtoan background) that absolutely does not establish that his anti-semitism or his destryuvenes in general were the results of his Christianty. Matrtin Luther King was a very strong Christian and took the asboute opposite path. There are many other examples. But this is no place for such a birad discussion. Stalin, BTW, and most of the Sovets were atheists. So what?? The evil lies in huma nature..--Lacatosias 11:45, 1 February 2006 (UTC)

Here is one site I just found, that echos my arguents, but I'll look for others. http://www.nobeliefs.com/hitler.htm http://www.remember.org/ http://www.remember.org/6/hitler-speech.html http://www.remember.org/6/information-on-adolf-hitler.html http://www.remember.org/6/hitler-and-religion.html What you say is true. We can't isolate his anti-semitism to any one single cause or writer; but it can be said they grow out of the social landscape and context in which he grew up in. Thus, Hitler's anti-Semitism may have grown out of his particular Christian education. Christian Austria and Germany in his time took for granted the belief that Jews held an inferior status to Aryan Christians. Jewish hatred was widespread in the preaching of Catholic priests and Protestant ministers throughout Germany for hundreds of years. That is why for example the Protestant leader, Martin Luther, himself, held a livid hatred for Jews and their Jewish religion, and his book, "On the Jews and their Lies," set the standard for Jewish hatred in Protestant Germany up until World War II. And, we know that Hitler expressed a great admiration for Martin Luther in Mein Kampf. I think pointing out this background, esp. the links between his Christianity and his anti-semitism are valid. Now, ofcourse just being a Christian alone doesn't mean that one will necessarily adopt such bigoted prejudices, anymore than anyone else growing up in other environments need follow dominant predjudices. Many don't. But, many do and its valid to point out how that is possible or even probably given the historical context of the times and based on the evidence we have of Hitler's beliefs. Giovanni33 12:27, 1 February 2006 (UTC)
Perhaps a section devoted to Hitler's influences (comprehensive and documented as mush as possible) or the roots of Hitler's anti-semiticim would be useful in the article. On the hand, this particuclar artile is aleady kind of long (though there are much longer, see Leon Trotksy's 800KB!! biography) and the whole idea might fit better into the artcile (or artciles) on Nazism), just as there is much info (and debate) about the ideological influences in fassicm in the artcile on fascism but nothing in the article on Mussolini in particualar. There is much overlap in these areas. --Lacatosias 13:10, 1 February 2006 (UTC)
Yes, I think the origins of Hitler's extreme ideology is important enough to have its own sub section. Acclaimed Hitler biographer, John Toland, explains his heartlessness as follows: "Still a member in good standing of the Church of Rome despite detestation of its hierarchy, he carried within him its teaching that the Jew was the killer of god. The extermination, therefore, could be done without a twinge of conscience since he was merely acting as the avenging hand of god..." Giovanni33 13:37, 1 February 2006 (UTC)
The difference is that medieval Catholics were undoubtedly Christian, the disputes were about Christian doctrine, and you can trace the idea of the inquisition to the Bible. Also, the Inquisition was not aiming at annhihaliting ethnic groups but at fighting what they considered heresy, to directed "stray sheep back into the fold". You may say they used monstrous means to achieve that and you would be right. But it's not the same as what Hitler did.
Hitler didn't aim at Christianity as such as he considered it too deeply rooted in German culture and preferred to corrupt it into something else (in his thinking: to purge it of Jewish influences). That is actually part of the problem existing in Christianity, especially since the Reformation. Here you have heresy again. But we know that after the "Endsieg" Hitler planned to address the "Church question" as well.
The only "crime" (what was the crime of these Christians?) wasn't their religion but their (alleged) race. Baptism didn't make any difference. He saw Slavs as "Untermenschen" and as natural slaves for Germany - he did not persecute Slavs for being "godless". He did order the murder of Bolshevik commissars in the Red Army, but that was because he saw them as the guiding forces and anyway, Jews and Bolshevism in the end were one for Hitler. Str1977 11:56, 1 February 2006 (UTC)

"POV-inspired intrusion...meant to smear Christianity."" Wow, defensive. You are supposed to assume good faith. How do you know what its meant to do? Smear Christianity? This defensive reaction itself is interesting because I could see how the example of Hitler being a Christian link to an argument that shows how his interpreation of Christian beliefs influenced his evil actions, could be seen as a smear on Christianity. I don't draw that conclusion but I will make the argument and let the reader draws their own conclusions about religious belief.

Also, lets not try to protect Christianity either, by suppressing facts that are normally included for every other historical bibliographical actor. Go take a look at any US president's article for example. It would be strange to look of John F. Kennedy and see the fact that he was a Roman Catholic not mentioned. Even if you want to protect your relgious beliefs from the possible interpretation that it is being smear by this historical case, that is not a valid course of action, but is POV pushing. Let the historical record be preserved, which includes professed religious beliefs of this historical actor in question. Let the reader decide to what degree its relevant. Obviously I disagree that these facts are not worth mentioning but are highly relevant in explaining Hitler's beliefs, at least in part. To suppress them is the real POV-insprired intrusion!

Let me show first that Hitler was clearly a Christian, and then let me make an argument for why this is very important, even deserving of its own section.

Beliefs Revealed

Besides all the well known quotes, such when Hitler told General Gerhart Engel, "I am now as before a Catholic and will always remain so". His infamous "Mein Kampf" plenty of phrases such as this: "Hence today I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord."

Hitler closely followed the anti-Semitic teachings of none other than Martin Luther, founder of Protestantism, who wrote a book titled "On Jews and their Lies". His extreme anti-semitism is relevant.

But, Hitler's beliefs are expressed quite clearly Mein Kampf, and they are as follows:

He believed in Heaven, Hell, a supreme being who created the universe, Jesus Christ, life after death, special creation, original sin, expulsion from paradise, and divine judgement.

He drew his inspiration from the Viennese Christian Social movement, and he expressed nothing but admiration for its founder.

He believed that Jesus Christ was an Aryan, not a Jew. In fact, he claimed that Jesus "made no secret of his attitude toward the Jewish people, and when necessary he even took the whip to drive from the temple of the Lord this adversary of all humanity".

He used the term "human" to describe only Aryans. He described blacks, Jews, and (presumably) other non-Aryan races as a disease, or as lower animals (notice that he described Jews as an "adversary of all humanity", thus clearly describing them as something other than humans).

He thought that interracial marriage would produce "monstrosities halfway between man and ape" and should be fought with religious fervour. This makes his beliefs on evolution and creation very clear; he thought that Aryans were created in God's own image, while all other races evolved from apes. This should come as no surprise; not only was this an overwhelmingly common belief during the age of European imperialism which lasted right up to the end of the 19th century, but it persists to this day (a lot of white supremacists still refer to blacks as "monkeys"). In his view, it was therefore an unnatural and unholy dilution of God's image for Aryans and non-Aryans to mate.

He believed that Germany lost World War I because it turned its back on God, much as Israel was repeatedly humiliated and defeated whenever it turned away from God in the Old Testament.

What more is required to show that he was Christian? If this is accepted (I have sources for each of these claims), I will now argue why it shouldnt be removed but inclused.

How Hitler's Beliefs Guided His Actions

Hitler's writings reveal a religious fanatic: a Christian and a creationist, driven by the belief that racial intermixing was destroying the purity of God's creation (the Aryan race, which he imagined to include Jesus) by mating with naturally evolved "apes". His actions were wholly consistent with this belief. Consider:

While some Christians believe that all acts of war violate God's will, the majority of Christians throughout history have believed in the idea of the "just war"; a war of good against evil, in which the good guys commit no wrong by waging war on the bad guys (for example, World War Two is widely cited as the last "just war", despite the fact that the "good guys" ended it by dropping nuclear weapons on civilian targets without explicit warning). Hitler obviously shared this belief; he thought he was fighting for a just cause.

While some Christians claim that racism is inherently anti-Christian, the sheer numbers of Christian racists throughout history (and indeed, throughout the world today, as demonstrated by the fundamentalists who justified Israelite atrocities by citing their racial status as God's "chosen people") easily put the lie to that claim. In reality, the Old Testament is an extremely racist tome, and Jesus said very little to contradict its message of a "chosen people" in the New Testament. Moreover, the virulent racism of both Catholic and Protestant conquerors in Africa, India, and the Americas during the age of European colonialism makes any claims of Christianity's inherent anti-racism absolutely laughable.

While most Christians believe that the sixth commandment outlaws murder, they believe that it does not extend to the killing of animals. Hitler believed that non-Aryans were animals. Most Christians also believe that murder can be justified (eg- self defense). Hitler believed that the world was arrayed against Germany and that their national actions were taken in self-defense.

The interesting thing about Hitler is that if you accept his bizarre belief system, his actions actually make sense. A common thread among all white supremacists has been (and still is) their hatred for racial intermixing. They see it as a "dilution" of the "purity" of the white race (obviously ignorant of the biological fact, consistent with evolution theory, that strength comes from diversity rather than purity).

Hitler was no exception; he hated racial intermixing with the fervour of racism buttressed by religious conviction, because he felt that non-Aryans were not human, and in his words, marriage should produce children who are "images of the Lord and not monstrosities halfway between man and ape." In his mind, his "Final Solution" was no different from the kind of extermination program one might carry out against pest animals, and in a very real sense, his creationism led directly to his racism.

I await to hear the reasoned objections. Giovanni33 10:43, 1 February 2006 (UTC)

I dispute the addition of the following:

"Adolf Hitler was raised strictly Catholic, wrote admiringly of the monks and the abbot (at a monastery in Lambach, Austria near his home which was adorned with numerous swastikas, probably the inspiration for the Nazi flag), he served as an altar boy and a choir boy, and for two years, and seriously contemplated becoming a Catholic priest himself. He remained a professed Christian throughout lifetime."

We have already dealt with the upbringing. That he wrote admiringly of a couple of "liberal" monks (liberal in theological sense) is misleading, you can add Altar boy information further up. Give reference for the "priesthood contemplation". That he remained a Christian is misleading, though you might say he professed to be a Christian.

"Hitler's anti-Semitism may have grown out of his Christian education. Christian Austria and Germany in his time took for granted the belief that Jews held an inferior status to Aryan Christians."

The article already deals with Hitler's anti-Semitism. That what you say was believed in Germany or Austria at that time is at best POV, at worst inaccurate.

"Jewish hatred was widespread in the preaching of Catholic priests and Protestant ministers throughout Germany for hundreds of years. The Protestant leader, Martin Luther, himself, held a livid hatred for Jews and their Jewish religion. In his book, "On the Jews and their Lies," Luther set the standard for Jewish hatred in Protestant Germany up until World War II. Hitler expressed a great admiration for Martin Luther."

As if Luther had dominated 500 years of German history by one single book. That anti-Semitism, though the actual a-S thought in racial categories, had roots in Christian anti-Judaism and anti-Jewish preaching cannot be denied, but you defintely overstating it, especially in the following passage:

"Acclaimed Hitler biographer, John Toland, explains his heartlessness as follows: "Still a member in good standing of the Church of Rome despite detestation of its hierarchy, he carried within him its teaching that the Jew was the killer of god. The extermination, therefore, could be done without a twinge of conscience since he was merely acting as the avenging hand of god."

As I said, traditional Christian anti-Jewish sentiment had a part in the evolution of racial anti-Semitism, but that's about it. This is definitely overstatement.

Str1977 16:04, 1 February 2006 (UTC)

Then if you admit that then why not include a passage saying just that: "Christian anti-Jewish sentiment had a part in the evolution of racial anti-Semitism." I provided more evidence below to support inclusion of my section. Also, I removed this, which I dispute, and like to see refrences for: "but after his parents' death he shunned the Catholic Church, resenting it as part of his upbringing." Do you have something that says he shunned the Church and resesnted the Church? I'm curious. Even if its true that he did, he certainly did not for long, and so this point is overstated, and redundant since it aleady states elsewhere that he resented his childhood. Giovanni33 19:59, 1 February 2006 (UTC)
I have to agree. Even thought I suggested a section on Hitler's anti-semtitic influences might be useful,it is not the place to push a personal agenda.
If it comes to that, why not leave it out and go express your opinions and beliefs on a blog or something? But, if you think you can prove all of your assertions, try to publish a peer-reviewed artcile on it. That's the kind of standard that one should hold onself to, whatever your background and beliefs when trying to write a factual encylopediea entry.--Lacatosias 16:39, 1 February 2006 (UTC)
My personal agenda is only to see that the encylopedia article is balanced, accurate, and most of all informative. This article was completely missing some basic important information that exists everywhere else, and is a big topic, i.e. religious influence in Hitler's ideology, his policies, and his stated beliefs of Christianity. So that is why I'm pushing for it. Its missing. To avoid it and remain silent on the question because its controverial intellectually cowardly, at best. I have provided more evidence below that makes the case for inclusion of this subject. Ofcourse it should be in a NPOV neutral langauge that reflects the debate, issues, on both sides fairly, but does touch on it as it is a real question and there is a lot of good evidence to support what I've tried to include, along with good arguments for its relevance. Pleaes review my Evidence for the Record, below, along with my cited sources. Since there was so much to be found in Mien Kumpf, I just selected some but the first link below has the full listing and text. Giovanni33 19:50, 1 February 2006 (UTC)

Giovanni, I removed your added sentence about "mainstream anti-Semitism", as the info is already included at the beginning of that paragraph.

As for your query, even Gregory Paul admits that Hitler shunned the Church. But since he is a dubious source, I will refer you to Michael Rißmann, Hitlers Gott [1], though I don't know whether it has been translated. BTW. Hitler never went back on this "shunning", even in 1933 he demonstratively refused to attend a Catholic service and later he didn't attend either, weddings and funerals excepted.

Also you should confuse "religions beliefs" with "Christianity". There are many religious beliefs, but Hitler was not Christian in any proper sense of the term.

Your evidence doesn't help either, as much of it is based public statements aiming at an audience. "Practical Christianity" for instance should more properly called "positive Christianity" - it was included in the Nazi manifesto. It basically means retaining a Christian shell refilled with Nazi ideas, as the next sentence in the manifesto makes it clear that religious freedom is granted as long as in line with the demands and natural laws of the "German race" (quoting from memory).Str1977 22:27, 1 February 2006 (UTC)

Mein Kampf is his most personal work. Far from being the carefully crafted political statement that some would make it out to be, it was Hitler pouring out his soul and revealing all of his life's plans to his closest confidante. He dictated and Hess transcribed the text of Mein Kampf while he was in prison in 1923-1924, finishing it after his release and publishing it in 1925. In it, he revealed everything: his plan to expand Aryan "living space" at the expense of the Slavs (ie- the foolish attack on Russia that so few saw coming), his plan to avenge the German defeat of World War I by conquering France, his belief that all of the world's races should be subjugated under the Aryan race, and his plan to exterminate the Jews. By reading this single document, one can predict every major action Hitler would take over the next two decades including the Holocaust and the "surprise" attack on Russia, yet some would have us believe it was nothing but a misleading propaganda piece. Giovanni33 00:59, 2 February 2006 (UTC)
MK is a personal work, but it also a political manifesto and propaganda. It's all at the same time. And in MK wrote about Lueger and Schöner, saying that Schönerer was right in programme but wrong in his propaganda (Away-from-Rome), while Lueger was lacking in programme but right in propaganda (being a populist, not causing unnecessary antagonism). Hitler meant to combine the two roles. Str1977 09:07, 2 February 2006 (UTC)
My German is a bit rusty. Do you have a version in English? I'd accept Gregory Paul. Is that Gregory S. Paul? Now, I know he stopped attending Church in his "bohemian" stage, but "shun" and "rebelled" is a stronger word, and suggests more than not attending service. Here are sime interesting pictures--the silent testimony of photographs is noteworthy: [2]
You asked me earlier where I got the information about Hiter considering becoming a priest at one time. I believe I read it here, among other places: [3] User.Giovanni33
Yes, I am referring to Gregory S. Paul. I mentioned him because he is easily accesible and I was anyway writing on him elsewhere. Nonetheless, he's not really a scholarly source.
As for your silent testimony, I note another silent testimony: that this site is meant to smear. One example: "Hitler at Nazi party rally - Note the "Church of our Lady" in the background as if it represented the foundation of the party. Photo taken in Nuremberg, Germany (circa 1928)." Can you take that seriously. Then you have German soldiers celebrating Christmas (of course they did, Germany is a traditionall Christian country), Hitler praying (to whom?), Nazis and militaries and the Reichsbischof Müller (Prostestant German Christians, hence a Nazi too) saluting Hitler, Hitler chatting with Cardinal Orsenigo (who was the Vatican's ambassador to Germany and as such dean of the diplomatic corps), Hitler at a wedding (hoohoo!), pictures from Spain (relevant?) and a long since debunked fake caption of a Faulhaber picture. Nothing in there says anything about Hitler's beliefs, as these are all public occasions.
I have read the priesthood passage in Paul (after I asked you), but is there a serious scholarly biopgraphy supporting this? Say Bullock or Fest? Str1977 10:40, 2 February 2006 (UTC)

"According to standard biographies, the principal Nazi leaders were all born, baptized, and raised Christian. Most grew up in strict, pious households where tolerance and democratic values were disparaged. Nazi leaders of Catholic background included Adolf Hitler, Heinrich Himmler, Reinhard Heydrich, and Joseph Goebbels.

Hitler did well in monastery school. He sang in the choir, found High Mass and other ceremonies intoxicating, and idolized priests. Impressed by their power, he at one time considered entering the priesthood.

Rudolf Hoess, who as commandant at Auschwitz-Birkinau pioneered the use of the Zyklon-B gas that killed half of all Holocaust victims, had strict Catholic parents. Hermann Goering had mixed Catholic-Protestant parentage, while Rudolf Hess, Martin Bormann, Albert Speer, and Adolf Eichmann had Protestant backgrounds. Not one of the top Nazi leaders was raised in a liberal or atheistic family—no doubt, the parents of any of them would have found such views scandalous. Traditionalists would never think to deprive their offspring of the faith-based moral foundations that they would need to grow into ethical adults.

So much for the Nazi leaders’ religious backgrounds. Assessing their religious views as adults is more difficult.

Despite these difficulties, enough is known to build a reasonable picture of what Hitler and other top Nazis believed.

Hitler was a Christian, but his Christ was no Jew. In his youth he dabbled with occult thinking but never became a devotee. As a young man he grew increasingly bohemian and stopped attending church. Initially no more anti-Semitic than the norm, in the years before the Great War he fell under the anti-Semitic influence of the Volkish Christian Social Party and other Aryan movements. After Germany’s stunning defeat and the ruinous terms of peace, Hitler became a full-blown Aryanist and anti-Semite. He grew obsessed with racial issues, which he unfailingly embedded in a religious context.

Reich iconography, too, reveals that Nazism never cut its ties to Christianity. The markings of Luftwaffe aircraft comprised just two swastikas—and six crosses. Likewise the Kreigsmarine (German Navy) flag combined the symbols. Hitler participated in public prayers and religious services at which the swastika and the cross were displayed together.

Hitler openly admired Martin Luther, whom he considered a brilliant reformer. Yet he said in several private conversations that he considered himself a Catholic. He said publicly on several occasions that Christ was his savior. As late as 1944, planning the last-ditch offensive the world would know as the Battle of the Bulge, he code-named it “Operation Christrose.” Giovanni33 10:25, 2 February 2006 (UTC)

Evidence for the Record

In a speech at Koblenz, August 26, 1934, Hitler said: "National Socialism neither opposes the Church nor is it anti-religious, but on the contrary it stands on the ground of a real Christianity . . . For their interests cannot fail to coincide with ours alike in our fight against the symptoms of degeneracy in the world of today, in our fight against a Bolshevist culture, against atheistic movement, against criminality, and in our struggle for a consciousness of a community in our national life . . . These are not anti-Christian, these are Christian principles!"

Related to the above, the "Religion" article in The Oxford Companion to World War II notes that early on in his career, Hitler sponsored something called "practical Christianity," and that "German Christians emerged who claimed to be able to synthesize the best of National Socialism [Nazism] and the best of Christianity. Many Christians seemed to be able to reconcile themselves to at least certain aspects of anti-Semitic legislation. Those who could not . . . often ended up in concentration camps . . . Many anguished Christians serving in the Wehrmacht began to feel a little more comfortable about supporting a war that now included the overthrow of godless communism."

Getting back to quotes, on October 24, 1933, in a speech in Berlin, Hitler said: "We were convinced that the people need and require this faith. We have therefore undertaken the fight against the atheistic movement, and that not merely with a few theoretical declarations: we have stamped it out."

Hitler wrote in Mein Kampf: "I am convinced that I am acting as the agent of our Creator. By fighting off the Jews. I am doing the Lord's work." In 1938, he quoted those same words in a Reichstag speech.

In a speech delivered April 12, 1922, published in "My New Order," and quoted in Freethought Today (April 1990), Hitler said: My feeling as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded only by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God's truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter. In boundless love as a Christian and as a man I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord at last rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the Temple the brood of vipers and adders. How terrific was his fight against the Jewish poison. Today, after two thousand years, with deepest emotion I recognize more profoundly than ever before the fact that it was for this that He had to shed his blood upon the Cross. As a Christian I have no duty to allow myself to be cheated, but I have the duty to be a fighter for truth and justice . . . And if there is anything which could demonstrate that we are acting rightly, it is the distress that daily grows. For as a Christian I have also a duty to my own people. And when I look on my people I see them work and work and toil and labor, and at the end of the week they have only for their wages wretchedness and misery. When I go out in the morning and see these men standing in their queues and look into their pinched faces, then I believe I would be no Christian, but a very devil, if I felt no pity for them, if I did not, as did our Lord two thousand years ago, turn against those by whom today this poor people are plundered and exploited.""

I could probably find more speeches in which Hitler claims himself to be a Christian, but I think the point has been made.

"Secular schools can never be tolerated because such schools have no religious instruction, and a general moral instruction without a religious foundation is built on air; consequently, all character training and religion must be derived from faith. . . we need believing people." (From Hitler's speech, April 26, 1933, during negotiations which led to the Nazi-Vatican Concordat of 1933.)

Hitler was baptized a Catholic, attended a monastery school early in life, and was a communicant and altar boy as a youth. During his years as Chancellor and then dictator of Nazi Germany, he was never excommunicated or condemned, even though the Vatican knew much of his policies and activities. The only major complaints from Rome regarded interference in Church matters. And those were largely silenced by the 1933 Concordat with the Vatican, under Pope Pius XII, which to Hitler meant that the Catholic Church recognized the Nazi state. The Nazi military wore belt buckles on which was the legend Gott Mit Uns ("God with us"), and much of his political philosophy was adapted from the Bible. Hitler would not have been successful without the support of German Christians.

The historical record shows that Hitler believed in God and was convinced he was carrying out God's will. Growing up in this environment, he surely learned something of the centuries of discrimination and persecution the Church had supported against Jews in Europe.

Former Jesuit theologian Peter de Rosa describes the groundwork Catholic theology laid for Hitler and the Nazis: "[Catholicism’s] disastrous theology had prepared the way for Hitler and his ‘final solution.’ [The Church published] over a hundred anti-Semitic documents. Not one conciliar decree, not one papal encyclical, bull, or pastoral directive suggest that Jesus’ command, ‘love your neighbor as yourself,' applied to Jews."

Not surprisingly, then, Hitler wrote in his book, Mein Kampf: ". . . I am convinced that I am acting as the agent of our Creator. By fighting off the Jews, I am doing the Lord's work." He made essentially the same claim in a speech before the Reichstag in 1938.

Hitler considered himself a Catholic until the day he died. In 1941 he told Gerhard Engel, one of his generals: "I am now as before a Catholic and will always remain so." In fact, Hitler was never excommunicated from the Catholic Church, and Mein Kampf was not placed on the Church's Index of Forbidden Books.

Hitler's biographer John Toland explains Catholicism's influence on the Holocaust. He says of Hitler: "Still a member in good standing of the Church of Rome despite detestation of its hierarchy, he carried within him its teaching that the Jew was the killer of god. The extermination, therefore, could be done without a twinge of conscience since he was merely acting as the avenging hand of god. . .."

The Protestant influence on Nazi Germany was no better, because Hitler is said to have admired the founder of Protestantism, Martin Luther, more than any other German. Among Luther's many denunciations of the Jews, there are such religious sentiments as: "The Jews deserve to be hanged on gallows seven times higher than ordinary thieves," and "We ought to take revenge on the Jews and kill them."

When Hitler was asked in 1933 what he planned to do about the Jews, he said he would do what Christians had been preaching for centuries.

Christians constituted a wellspring of support for Hitler. Steve Allen notes that in the 1930s, Nazi Germany "was the most church-affiliated nation in Europe. The German people were almost entirely Catholic and Lutheran. Despite such factors they launched the Holocaust and World War II." Charles Kimball likewise says the Holocaust "would not have happened without the active participation of, sympathetic support of, and relative indifference exhibited by large numbers of Christians."

Also in pre-World War II Germany, corporal punishment was used in the schools and schoolchildren were required to start their days with prayer. Today's advocates of spanking and school prayer should consider that those practices, although supported by religion, proved ineffective in promoting high ethical standards and good behavior among German youth. Further, Nazi Germany's soldiers wore belt buckles inscribed "Gott mit uns" ("God is with us"). Like many tyrants both past and present, Hitler used the mantle of religion to justify and further his selfish, hateful, and destructive philosophy. By conditioning people to blindly accept the pronouncements of authorities, instead of teaching them to think for themselves, religions often make it easy for such evil dictators and demagogues to succeed.

From the Mein Kampf Volume 1, Chapter 2, Years of Study and Suffering in Vienna

I was not in agreement with the sharp anti-Semitic tone, but from time to time I read arguments which gave me some food for thought. At all events, these occasions slowly made me acquainted with the man and the movement, which in those days guided Vienna's destinies: Dr. Karl Lueger and the Christian Social Party. -Adolf Hitler (Mein Kampf) (Note: Karl Lueger (1844-1910) belonged as a member of the anti-Semitic Christian Social Party, he became mayor of Vienna and kept his post until his death.)

The man and the movement seemed 'reactionary' in my eyes. My common sense of justice, however, forced me to change this judgment in proportion as I had occasion to become acquainted with the man and his work; and slowly my fair judgment turned to unconcealed admiration. Today, more than ever, I regard this man as the greatest German mayor of all times. -Adolf Hitler speaking about Dr. Karl Lueger (Mein Kampf)

How many of my basic principles were upset by this change in my attitude toward the Christian Social movement! My views with regard to anti-Semitism thus succumbed to the passage of time, and this was my greatest transformation of all. -Adolf Hitler (Mein Kampf)

Hence today I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: *by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord.* -Adolf Hitler (Mein Kampf)

Volume 1, Chapter 3 General Political Considerations Based on My Vienna Period

the unprecedented rise of the Christian Social Party... was to assume the deepest significance for me as a classical object of study. -Adolf Hitler (Mein Kampf)

Even less could I understand how the Christian Social Party at this same period could achieve such immense power. At that time it had just reached the apogee of its glory. -Adolf Hitler (Mein Kampf)

The anti-Semitism of the new movement [Christian Social movement] was based on religious ideas instead of racial knowledge. -Adolf Hitler (Mein Kampf)

If Dr. Karl Lueger had lived in Germany, he would have been ranked among the great minds of our people. -Adolf Hitler speaking about the leader of the Christian Social movement (Mein Kampf)

In nearly all the matters in which the Pan-German movement was wanting, the attitude of the Christian Social Party was correct and well-planned. -Adolf Hitler (Mein Kampf)

It [Christian Social Party] recognized the value of large-scale propaganda and was a virtuoso in influencing the psychological instincts of the broad masses of its adherents. -Adolf Hitler (Mein Kampf)

If Dr. Karl Lueger had lived in Germany, he would have been ranked among the great minds of our people. -Adolf Hitler speaking about the leader of the Christian Social movement (Mein Kampf)

Volume 1, Chapter 6, War Propaganda Certainly we don't have to discuss these matters with the Jews, the most modern inventors of this cultural perfume. Their whole existence is an embodied protest against the aesthetics of the Lord's image. -Adolf Hitler (Mein Kampf)

...we must pray to the Almighty not to refuse His blessing to this change and not to abandon our people in the times to come. -Hitler recalling a priest's speech after the defeat of WWI (Mein Kampf)

Volume 1, Chapter 8, The Beginning of My Political Activity To them belong, not only the truly great statesmen, but all other great reformers as well. Beside Frederick the Great stands Martin Luther as well as Richard Wagner. -Adolf Hitler (Mein Kampf)

What we must fight for is to safeguard the existence and reproduction of our race and our people, the sustenance of our children and the purity of our blood, the freedom and independence of the fatherland, so that our people may mature for the fulfillment of the mission allotted it by the creator of the universe. -Adolf Hitler (Mein Kampf)

Volume 1, Chapter 11, Nation and Race

Here, of course, we encounter the objection of the modern pacifist, as truly Jewish in its effrontery as it is stupid! 'Man's role is to overcome Nature!' -Adolf Hitler (Mein Kampf) (Man's dominion over earth appears in Genesis 1:26) ...the fall of man in paradise has always been followed by his expulsion. -Adolf Hitler (Mein Kampf) (See Genesis Chapter 3) ...that is why the prophet seldom has any honor in his own country. -Adolf Hitler (Mein Kampf) ("For Jesus himself testified, that a prophet hath no honour in his own country." John 4:44) Volume 2, Chapter 1, Philosophy and Party Anyone who dares to lay hands on the highest image of the Lord commits sacrilege against the benevolent creator of this miracle and contributes to the expulsion from paradise. -Adolf Hitler (Mein Kampf)

Volume 2, Chapter 5, Philosophy and Organization

Christianity could not content itself with building up its own altar; it was absolutely forced to undertake the destruction of the heathen altars. Only from this fanatical intolerance could its apodictic faith take form; this intolerance is, in fact, its absolute presupposition. -Adolf Hitler (Mein Kampf)

For how shall we fill people with blind faith in the correctness of a doctrine, if we ourselves spread uncertainty and doubt by constant changes in its outward structure? ...Here, too, we can learn by the example of the Catholic Church. Though its doctrinal edifice, and in part quite superfluously, comes into collision with exact science and research, it is none the less unwilling to sacrifice so much as one little syllable of its dogmas... it is only such dogmas which lend to the whole body the character of a faith. -Adolf Hitler (Mein Kampf)

Volume 2, Chapter 10, Federalism as a Mask

The folkish-minded man, in particular, has the sacred duty, each in his own denomination, of making *people stop just talking superficially of God's will, and actually fulfill God's will, and not let God's word be desecrated.* For God's will gave men their form, their essence and their abilities. Anyone who destroys His work is declaring war on the Lord's creation, the divine will. -Adolf Hitler (Mein Kampf)

In the ranks of the movement [National Socialist movement], *the most devout Protestant* could sit beside *the most devout Catholic,* without coming into the slightest conflict with his religious convictions. The mighty common struggle which both carried on against the destroyer of Aryan humanity had, on the contrary, taught them mutually to respect and esteem one another. -Adolf Hitler (Mein Kampf)

God gave the savior to the German people. We have faith, deep and unshakeable faith, that he [Hitler] was sent to us by God to save Germany. -Hermann Goering

I swear before God this holy oath, that I shall give absolute confidence to the Fuehrer of the German Reich and people.

-Heinrich Himmler (reminding his hearers about the oath taken by all SS men as well as by the military forces) (The mass murderer Himmler got brought up as a devout Catholic, like young Hitler, and he was careful to attend mass regularly.)

You *Einsatztruppen* (task forces) are called upon to fulfill a repulsive duty. But you are soldiers who have to carry out every order unconditionally. You have a responsibility before God and Hitler for everything that is happening. I myself hate this bloody business and I have been moved to the depths of my soul. But I am obeying the highest law by doing my duty. Man must defend himself against bedbugs and rats-- against vermin. -Heinrich Himmler (in a speech to the SS guards)

Julius Streicher, the ninth child of a Roman Catholic primary school teacher, also became a school teacher in Nuremberg. When Hitler got released from prison in December 1924, Streicher hailed Hitler's return to politics as a "gift of God," a judgement the Fuehrer never forgot. Streicher held an enthusiam about allegations that the Jews murdered non-Jews in order to obtain blood for the feast of Passover. He charged that Jews hated Christianity and mankind in general. Streicher went to grotesque lengths in his attacks on Jews claiming the discovery that "Christ was not a Jew but an Aryan."

If the danger of the reproduction of that curse of God in the Jewish blood is finally to come to an end, then there is only one way-- the extermination of that people whose father is the devil... -Julius Streicher (in an article in the newspaper *Der Stu:mer*) Only the Jews, he shouted, had remained victorious after the dreadful days of World War I. These were the people, he charged, of whom Christ said, "Its father is the devil." -Julius Streicher

(See John 8:44, for Christ's accusation of father the devil) Germans must fight Jews, that organized body of world criminals against whom Christ, the greatest anti-Semite of all time, had fought. -Julius Streicher

The pious Catholic parents of Joseph Goebbels raised him and his two brothers in that faith. He spoke of Hitler as "either Christ or St. John." "Hitler, I love you!" he wrote in his diary. A Jew is for me an object of disgust. I feel like vomiting when I see one. Christ could not possibly have been a Jew. It is not necessary to prove that scientifically-- it is a fact. -Joseph Goebbels (in his attempt to win the eternal gratitude of Hitler)

In his Nuremberg cell, Rudolf Hoess told psychologist G.M. Gilbert how he got brought up in a rigorous Catholic tradition: My father was really a bigot. He was very strict and fanatical. I learned that my father took a religious oath at the time of the birth of my younger sister, dedicating me to God and the priesthood, and after that leading a Joseph married life [celibacy]. He directed my entire youthful education toward the goal of making me a priest. I had to pray and go to church endlessly, do penance over the slightest misdeed-- praying as punishment for any little unkindness to my sister, or something like that. When asked if his father ever beat him, Hoess replied that he was only punished by prayer. "The thing that made me so stubborn and probably made me later on cut off from people was his way of making me feel that I had wronged him personally, and that, since I was spiritually a minor, he was responsible to God for my sins.

Alfred Rosenberg stands as the major reason why so many American Christians think Nazism represented Nordic pagan beliefs instead of Nazi Christianity. Hitler chose Rosenberg to create a 'religion of the Blood' knowing that any form of propaganda could prove useful. However, Hitler also attempted to establish a Reich Christian Church for the future of Germany. Hitler, himself, did not believe in pagan cults. Rosenberg charged that the true picture of Jesus had been distorted by fanatics like Matthew, by materialistic rabbis like Paul, by African jurists like Tertullian, and the mongrel half-breeds like St. Augustine. The real Christ, wrote Rosenberg, was an Amorite Nordic, aggressive, courageous, "a man of true Nordic character," a revolutionary who opposed the Jewish and Roman systems with sword in hand, bringing not peace but war (see Matthew 10:34-37). Rosenberg later went on to say that he favored a "positive Christianity," which would purify the Nordic race, re-establish the old pagan virtues, and substitute the fiery spirit of the hero for the crucifixion.

Volume 1, Chapter 12 The First Period of Development of the Nationalist Social German Worker's Party

The characteristic thing about these people is that they rave about old Germanic heroism, about dim prehistory, stone axes, spear and shield, but in reality are the greatest cowards that can be imagined. For the same people who brandish scholarly imitations of old German tin swords, and wear a dressed bearskin with bull's horns over their heads, preach for the present nothing but struggle with spiritual weapons, and run away as fast as they can from every Communist blackjack. -Adolf Hitler (Mein Kampf)

(The above statement refutes the common impression that Hitler admired ancient Nordic customs.)

http://www.sullivan-county.com/nf0/hitler/hitler1.htm http://www.nobeliefs.com/hitler.htm http://www.remember.org/6/hitler-and-religion.html http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/john_murphy/religionofhitler.html http://www.nobeliefs.com/HitlerSources.htm http://www.nobeliefs.com/hitlerchristian.htm

Helmreich, Ernst Christian, "The German Churches Under Hitler," Wayne State University Press, 1979 Hitler, Adolf, "Mein Kampf," translated by Ralph Manheim, Houghton Mifflin Company, 1971 Scholder, Klaus, "The Churches and the Third Reich, Vol 1" Fortress Press, 1977 Scholder, Klaus, "The Churches and the Third Reich, Vol 2" Fortress Press, 1977 Toland, John, "Adolf Hitler," Anchor Books Doubleday, 1976 Macfarland, Charles S., "The New Church and the New Germany," Macmillan Co. Giovanni33 19:50, 1 February 2006 (UTC)

Shall we create two articles Hitler's religious beliefs and Churches in Nazi Germany? Andries 20:24, 1 February 2006 (UTC) (sorry accidently deleted this)

An article on Hitler's regliious beliefs would be interesting and there's enough material for its own article. Still there should be some mention in this article that effect and its link to anti-semitism. Giovanni33 20:32, 1 February 2006 (UTC)

I doubt whether Hitler's religious beliefs should be treated here, because I think that his religious beliefs are of minor importance when compared to his political beliefs. And also please read what Sebastian Haffner wrote about Hitler's religious beliefs in his book The Meaning of Hitler (a translation of an excerpt on the subject can be found in this talk page). Andries 20:36, 1 February 2006 (UTC)
Exactly why it should be mentioned, if only breifly---becaues Hitler's religious beliefs are very political. His emphasis for religion was political firt and foremost, and some of it may have been only political, although religious in form like any good polititian. Giovanni33 20:47, 1 February 2006 (UTC)

This section of evidence at first sight looks impressive, but there are several things included that are irrelevant to the specific issue, whether Hitler was a Christan.

  • Reference to a Catholic upbringing (Streicher, Goebbels, Hitler, Himmler etc.) - what is relevant is these people's position later in life and things don't look so Catholic then.
  • References by Hitler or another person to God, the Allmighty, providence etc. - as these are not specifically Christian concepts.
  • Opposition to atheism falls into the same category.
  • References describing Hitler or the Nazi cause in religious language (e.g. Goebbels calling Hitler Christ) - that merely using language and Goebbels calling someone else Christ (instead of Christ) clearly shows whether he was a Christian.
  • References to the German military as such - the "Gott mit uns" belt was old Prussian custom, used before and in World War I. Note that many military people, though agreeing with Hitler's promises of German grandeur etc, were not Nazis and that the Wehrmacht was quite free from direct Nazi ideology (depending on commanding officers of course), at least until 20 July 1944.
  • References to a failure of the Church to excommunicate Hitler (or to ban Mein Kampf). There were valid reasons for not doing so but even though it says nothing about Hitler's faith.

Str1977 09:33, 2 February 2006 (UTC)

Being brought up a Catholic does not make you a Catholic in any meaningful sense. In the inter-war years in Europe pretty much everyone was brought up in some religious tradition or other, and a huge number would have gone to church schools. Maybe you should ask Deitrich Bonhoffer if Hitler was a Christian. DJ Clayworth 14:21, 2 February 2006 (UTC)

Roots of Anti-Semitism

There is no doubt that Hitler was at least some point a self-described "Christian", nor is there any doubt that European anti-Semitism has strong roots in some aspects of Christian theology.

However, I think it is a bit of a vague and unecessary distortion to say that Hitler appealed to "Christian anti-Semitism". Like every other issue in history, anti-Semitism was more complex and varied than merely being a pre-conceived and well-defined prejudice originating in some other pre-conceived and well-defined notion. In many cases it was merely advantageous for some people to exploit anti-Semitic beliefs even if they had no strong opinions of their own. In yet other cases anti-Semitism was just one prejudice among others because the superiority of the Aryan race was considered indisputable; people of "non-Aryan" descent anywhere of any particular faith were considered de facto inferior because they were not "Aryan". And of course, no one can seriously deny that anti-Semitism already had deep roots in European culture whether for religious, political or cultural reasons - it is after all one variation of xenophobia.

I think what's being debated here is not the first two statements above, but the relevance of the roots of anti-Semitism and the exact nature of its appeal in an article on Hitler. It's like calling the current American Republican party "Christian", on the basis of its exploitation of American religious fundamentalism. -- Simonides 21:45, 1 February 2006 (UTC)

I wouldn't want to deny that Hitler appealed to Christian anti-semitism. Hitler appealed to everyones anti-semitism. DJ Clayworth 14:23, 2 February 2006 (UTC)
That's what I am saying. -- Simonides 17:35, 2 February 2006 (UTC)