Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive363

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Contents 1 User:Alien from brixton 2 legal threat from IP/sock - blocked 3 Need a page move by a newbie editor undone 4 Systematic removal of WikiProject Totalitarianism project tags 5 Odd vandalism pattern by 76.109.246.250 6 WP:3RR against User:Jossi 6.1 Blocks 6.2 Refocussing 7 Question about admin action 8 Can somebody review this and, if possible, delete it? 9 Copying and pasting own deleted contributions 10 I deleted the Main Page 11 Process attack by Hu12 12 Blocking of User:X3210 13 Banned user Grawp 14 Odd vandalism on Jakarta International School 15 Main Page discussion (notice) 16 Notice of AN post 17 User:Swatjester 18 User:Zenwhat Civility issues, 2nd incident 18.1 Observation by User:Mayalld 18.2 Other Comments 18.3 Editor Rebuttal 18.3.1 WQA / User talk Issue 18.3.2 Zenwhat/BigK 19 Irish ISP user 20 Blocking user comments 21 Block of administrator RyanGerbil10 21.1 Comment from Ryan 21.2 Suggestion that might deter admin account hacking 22 Continued OWNership and reverts against consensus 23 User:59.163.208.2 24 Break-in at User:Clevelander 25 Undeleting and Deleting Corey Worthington 26 Block review of User:Paul Harald Kaspar 27 V-Dash Ban 28 Sockpuppet, possible wikistalker. 29 86.20.169.102 mass removing prod's 30 Posen speech 31 behaviour 70.54.1.78 32 Priory of Sion.com 33 Indefinite block on an IP for vandalism? 34 Problem User follow-up 35 Soapboxing and article-ownership by Abuse truth 36 Is this an unapproved bot or am I being paranoid? 37 Petition to keep Muhammad images 38 Heavy-handed admin behavior at Muhammad 39 Possible COI? 40 Questionable admin status: User:Shii

[edit] User:Alien from brixton

Alien from brixton (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log) Earlier today the above user redirected their userpage to an article they had created Irish Sea Tunnel. I reverted the edit and explained to them that userpages should not be redirected to an article. (I had an article they had edited on in my watchlist) However they have now redirected their user talk page again to the articles talk page, making it impossible to leave a message on their userpage. Also on the article Irish Sea the same user removed a whole section discussing a proposed Irish Sea Tunnel, initially without an edit summary and eventually stating on my talk page that they did so because it was "crap". I have tried restoring the content following discussion on the articles talk page when I said that I would be restoring the content as it is sourced, valid and relevant, and adding a "main article" link. However they left a message stating "you will not" and have yet again removed the entire sourced section. I just seem to be annoying the user. I have tried sorting this out on their talk page (when they had one) and on the articles talk page, explaining that they would be best editing the section but unfortunately this has falled on deaf ears. I will not be reverting again and getting further involved into an edit war and I have left the article as it was. However, could someone deal with this please? I would leave a message informing them of my bringing this up on here but as I said above they now have no user talkpage. Thank you.♦Tangerines♦·Talk 21:06, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

I am not an administrator, but I have gone ahead and reverted the redirected talk page back to a normal talk page. In the future, if you want to edit a redirect page, when you are on the page you have been redirected too, under the article title a link to the redirect should be present. By clicking on it and then on history, you can revert it. At any rate, I am going to go ahead and leave a note on the importance of talk page. Besides that, I will leave it to an administrator. SorryGuy  Talk  21:16, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

I've left a welcome message and a polite note about the redirect, which I hope helps. The editing dispute doesn't really need adminstrative action. Bencherlite^Talk 21:19, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

Fair enough, but how do I now restore the tunnel section to the article? I added the "main article" link in the section to Irish Sea Tunnel but that was also removed and now the article merely states, "There have been various tentative proposals for an Irish Sea Tunnel". The content is relevant to the article, however if I re-add the content again, even if a smaller section, I will be breaking the 3RR and no doubt winding up Alien From Buxton even further. Removing content from an article because they had "made a new article because the old crap in the Irish Sea article is crap and not really revelent" (the explanation given on my talk page) is surely not a valid reason to remove a whole sourced section. The article needs more than a one line throwaway comment.♦Tangerines♦·Talk 21:28, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

Try Wikipedia:Dispute resolution. As I said, this doesn't need administrative action. Bencherlite^Talk 22:40, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] legal threat from IP/sock - blocked

Just a quick heads up, 142.162.14.78 (talk • contribs • deleted contribs • WHOIS • RDNS • trace • RBLs • http • block user • block log) dropped a legal threat on User talk:142.162.14.78. Since I can't really indef block an IP, especially considering it's probably not static, I made a 1 week hard block on the IP. If a checkuser gets a chance it might be good to make sure I'm not causing any collateral damage. Cheers =) --slakr^\ talk / 00:12, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

• Most likely a sock of Juno24631 (talk · contribs) (who threatened to kill herself via vandalism to Suicide) and quite likely herself a sock of Kagome 85 (talk · contribs) who is making the same changes the IP and Juno did. JuJube (talk) 00:13, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

Lol, didn't know about the whole suicide thing. Somehow it seems that they're finding their way to me this week. :P Anyway the evidence was clear when the user claimed he was on AOL when it's not an AOL range to lift an unblock on the sock account then proceeded to make all of the same edits his sock made. --slakr^\ talk / 00:18, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

And is now making the same changes as Kagome 65 (talk · contribs). JuJube (talk) 00:18, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

And again as Saturn 18 (talk · contribs). JuJube (talk) 00:24, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

Socks blocked. IrishGuy ^talk 00:28, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Need a page move by a newbie editor undone

Rockk3r (talk · contribs) page moved the "Portal Rush (band)" to "Portal Rush" and the result is a broken portal made up of a bunch of red links. I explained blunder to the editor but it looks like he's offline and can't correct his mistake. Can someone pop by and undo his goof. 156.34.213.34 (talk) 00:23, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

Y Done, though I managed to screw it up the first time as well. Black Kite 00:38, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

Thanks Black Kite. The editor is still online but did not get back to "undo his do's". 156.34.213.34 (talk) 00:44, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Systematic removal of WikiProject Totalitarianism project tags

Brought over from WP:AIV. — ERcheck (talk) 01:48, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

"Maglev Power (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · block user · block log): I don't know if this is really vandalism, but I don't know where else to report it. Maglev Power has taken it upon himself to strip every single article in WikiProject Totalitarianism of its talk page tag, because he doesn't like the idea of the WikiProject. He is currently in the process of doing it. There is absolutely no consensus to do this, and he seems to shrug off complaints on his talk page. At one point he said "Encyclopedias are based on facts, not 'consensus.'" I think some administrator should step in. --ElPeruano (talk) 01:38, 4 February 2008 (UTC)"

Discussion also on WP:AN — ERcheck (talk) 02:02, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Odd vandalism pattern by 76.109.246.250

This isn't ongoing but appears to have been overlooked at the time; just thought I'd mention it in case others see the pattern in other similar addresses. Special:Contributions/76.109.246.250 made a series of edits to Legal drinking age and Television content rating systems on November 26. In both cases, the first edit in the series is truncated when viewed in WP:Popups, and looks innoccuous 'above the fold'. Below the fold, urls have had pieces removed[1][2]. This first edit is followed in quick succession by minor, possibly good faith edits (some of these are possible number vandalism). Previous edits from the same address show a pattern of number vandalism and url breakage, but this looks like a deliberate attempt to hide what's being done. --Bazzargh (talk) 02:09, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

I have evidence to an effect of things being hidden as well. Edits disappearing! If you need it please let me know and I will dig it up. Igor Berger (talk) 04:25, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

The IP cited above has only edited 7 times since November, and none are what I would call "bad faith" edits. What is the issue here? This is in all likelyhood a different person than edited back in November... --Jayron32.talk.contribs 05:24, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

I agree. Except for a general reminder to scroll down a bit to check for hidden vandalism at the bottom of an edit, there's nothing to do here. Gimmetrow 06:19, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] WP:3RR against User:Jossi

I invoked WP:IAR and common sense to No Action this 3RR report against User:Jossi. As far as I can tell, Jossi was acting in good faith and in an admin capacity on a procedural page. I therefore declined to take the rather drastic step of blocking an admin in good standing. This is a fairly contentious issue right now. Does anyone else want to chime in? Ronnotel (talk) 03:06, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

This brings up 2 questions:

i) Does WP:3rr apply to pages other than wikipedia articles? In my opinion, no, thus Jossi should not be blocked (or punished). The reason for this is that, articles are important because they are the only content read by the public. In fact, everything on wikipedia exists for one main purpose, that is to improve articles. Thus it is important that articles be stable.

ii) Are admins and users in good standing exempt from WP:3rr? Certainly not. Infact, if anything, good users, as members who represent wikipedia interests, should be held to higher standards than edit warriors who violate the rule. (In this case, though, as already stated, 3rr doesn't apply). Bless sins (talk) 03:16, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

Not to Wikilawyer, but WP:3RR says "An editor must not perform more than three reverts, in whole or in part, on a single page within a 24-hour period." The use of "page" instead of "article" in that sentence seems significant to me, so I don't think I can agree with Bless sins' first point. I endorse his/her second point absolutely, mind you. Sarcasticidealist (talk) 03:35, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

Certainly I've seen people blocked for violating 3RR on policy pages, talk pages, and even user pages. The only time I have seen an exception made was for people removing stuff from their own user page. ScienceApologist (talk) 03:47, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

I'm reviewing the edits to the Homeopathy notice subpage - disruptive edit warring seems to justify a few short blocks, and not of Jossi. Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 03:32, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

There are instances where reverts may not constitute a breach of this policy and it appears Jossi was acting in good faith and in an admin capacity on a procedural page. Not reason for a block, and agree with Ronnotel's decline.--Hu12 (talk) 03:38, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

I encourage you to look through Jossi's recent editing history and some of the rumblings going on at User talk:Jossi. I know it is hard to block what you may consider to be a trusted admin, but I'm afraid he's stepping beyond the bounds of policy and making some very provocative maneuvers. ScienceApologist (talk) 03:43, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

to be honest, I'm much more concerned about your behavior. I find it unlikely that you filed that report with the expectation that it would be acted on. I think Jossi is trying to de-escalate the environment. I can't say the same for you. Ronnotel (talk) 03:53, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

I'll take that under advisement. In the meantime, I think you should carefully note that this 3RR report was not due to me edit warring with Jossi, so there really isn't a kettle to be seen. Also, FYI, "I find it unlikely that you filed that report with the expectation that it would be acted on." is basically flouting WP:AGF. I know that you are upset with my hardline position at cold fusion, but you shouldn't let that cloud your judgment. For what it's worth, I really appreciated that you started this thread because it shows that this is not an easy situation. ScienceApologist (talk) 04:00, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

The real problem is that a cadre of dedicated warriors on each side is pushing the situation to where uninvolved admins can't step in without being attacked somehow.

This whole article probation / etc situation was set up to defuse that, and yet has now become another focus of disruptive editing and infighting.

From a practical standpoint - it doesn't matter who's fundamentally right. If both sides make it too toxic for uninvolved admins to step in, both sides need to get blocked and pages need to be full protected until things cool down.

That is approximately the last step left, and we're approximately there. I haven't pulled any triggers yet, but I think it has to be on the table. Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 04:22, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

As a previously uninvoled admin, I generally agree with User:Georgewilliamherbert. I had some hope that Arbcomm would agree to look at the article to look at issues of user conduct, but it appears that they continue to view it as a content dispute. I'm not really sure what else can be done from this point, because I don't think most of the unconstructive behaviour is actually blockworthy. Sarcasticidealist (talk) 04:25, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

Blocks aren't the only tool that admins can use here. You can impose revert paroles on individual users, or article/topic bans. That might be a way to address disruptive behavior that doesn't rise to the level of blocking. --Akhilleus (talk) 04:36, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

The trouble is that the most disruptive behaviour I see isn't to the article (in the form of excessive reverting, etc.) but on the talk page, where many editors seem interested only in denigrating (civilly, natch) their opponents; the talk pages get flooded with this sort of thing, and attempts to achieve consensus get buried and have low participation. Revert paroles wouldn't do any good. Sarcasticidealist (talk) 04:55, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

But that's where the article/topic bans come in. If an editor consistently makes disruptive edits to the talk page, including incivility and obstruction, then they can be prohibited from editing the talk page. --Akhilleus (talk) 04:58, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

(outdent) It's more subtle than that, I'm afraid. They behave civilly, they're polite, and they don't obstruct others' efforts. They just do nothing to advance the cause of consensus, and a whole lot to fill up the talk page with endless debate. Sarcasticidealist (talk) 06:31, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Blocks

In order to centralize disussion related to admin responses to the situation...

I have just blocked ShmuckyTheCat for 3 hours for the edit: [3], which I judge to be disruptive and drama-increasing rather than reducing behavior. Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 04:32, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

Heh, so following WP:TALK is now blockable. In this forum, it figures. Shot info (talk) 04:39, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

Maybe it was Shmucky's edit summary? This does seem like an odd choice. --Akhilleus (talk) 04:47, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

Deleting a bunch of comments is not helpful. By itself it would probably be worth a warning or overlooking - but it was further escalation after comments by myself and other admins that further escalation is unacceptable, and that crackdowns for existing behavior might be justified. 3 hrs is enough to make the point without abusing anyone severely. Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 04:51, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

Sorry, I seemed to have missed that bit in WP:TALK. Would you be able to point out where jossi's comments helped improve the article? Shot info (talk) 04:55, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

If I were to rigorously block for violations of a strict interpretation of WP:TALK on the article talk page, about 35 editors will be sitting on their hands for the next week.

Alternatively, one can acknowledge that WP:TALK is a guideline not a prescription, and "violations" of it aren't removable barring other disruption... Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 04:59, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

Actually, I'm not sure that having a bunch of the editors sit on their hands is a bad idea. You could accomplish that through article/topic bans through blocks, though. --Akhilleus (talk) 05:01, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

Just shaking my head at what actually is acted upon decisively. No, it shouldn't surprise me, given the obsession with civilness over content. And edit warring civilly is tolerated....until it becomes uncivil, but by then it's too late for certain admins to act. Instead they pick and easy but largely tangential target. Shot info (talk) 05:07, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

Unfortunately, large scale edit wars and disruption are worse for the Encyclopedia than even having clearly factually wrong content in some articles. Edit wars and personal attacks are attacks not just on individuals, but on the community. The community will, if it's not damaged or scared off a topic, eventually fix incorrect articles and related problems. But there's not much which fixes the community if people rampage around trying to break it.

Schmucky happened to be the first incivility to step in front of the bus, after we started the bus moving. That it was him and not one of a few dozen other people is not his fault, nor a conclusion about his position in the article dispute.

If you will excuse me from this little discussion, however, I have some people to ban from the talk page for a couple of days, I think. Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 05:11, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

George, in all honesty, there are a LOT of editors who are just waiting to see admins actually begining to act and act sensibly. Blocking Schmucky wasn't sensible (IMO). But if he is the first sign of a movement by admins to enforce content by removing editing warning, then I think he would be accepting of his fate. But then again, some oldtimers have heard this sort of talk before. I personally look forward to in anticipation to see what happens. Will the project move forward, or will WR be proven correct? Shot info (talk) 05:19, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

This is an absurd thing to block over. From George's perspective, removing comments made things worse. Schumucky felt differently. So instead of asking him not to do that.. no warning, you jump on a block? Wha? Schmucky's logic for removing the "OMG I'm leaving" comments are reasonable. We should not block over bad judgement calls (not that I even agree that it was a bad judgement call or not). -- Ned Scott 06:29, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

• Infophile (talk · contribs) is banned from Talk:Homeopathy for 24 hrs for this edit which was disruptive and uncivil. Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 05:21, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

endorse. I think it's time to start asking what has an editor has done to be civil rather than how they have been uncivil. Ronnotel (talk) 06:06, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

Please note that there's some edit warring over the inclusion of the Pseudoscience and Fringe science categories on Homeopathy. This sequence of edits strikes me as a bit odd, since QuackGuru is an advocate of the categories and Dance With The Devil has never edited the article before. --Akhilleus (talk) 06:13, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

(ec to Ronnotel) This is the major problem with the Project at the moment. The most civil POV is rewarded by the admins rather than NPOV and improving the article. I think it's time to start asking what has an editor has done to improve the project rather than how they have been uncivil. Shot info (talk) 06:16, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

WP:CIVIL is an official policy at Wikipedia. Editors who are laboring under the misapprehension that they can 'improve the project' while being 'uncivil' are... laboring under a misapprehension. Dlabtot (talk) 06:37, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

First let me say that I endorse the article ban of User:Infophile, and further endorse User:Dlabtot's comments on civility. That said, I understand where User:Shot info is coming from; editors can be as frustratingly obstructionist as they want on the article talk page, but as long as they're polite about it there are no consequences to them. Sarcasticidealist (talk) 06:40, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

There is a failure to enforce NPOV. This leads to POV pushing, which leads to CIVIL issues. The problem isn't the civility, it's the failure to enforce NPOV. It's time to reward those who contribute to the project, rather than do what we have been doing - which is reward those who editwar, but do it civilly. Shot info (talk) 06:46, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

I guess I just don't agree with your assertion: There is a failure to enforce NPOV. This leads to POV pushing, which leads to CIVIL issues. I'm pretty sure that the overwhelming majority of admins are putting forth their best good faith efforts at enforcing WP:FIVE. And I'm sorry, there simply is no way to justify uncivil edits: not only is incivility a violation of one of Wikipedia's fundamental principles, it also just doesn't work - it's poor rhetoric which not only fails to persuade, but backfires. Dlabtot (talk) 08:38, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

That's right, it backfires, meaning that the uncivil NPOV pusher is overwhelmed by the civil POV pusher. Which is worse? From the answers here is it clear that it is the more civil. Also it is plain only one one of the pillars is monitored - civility, because the civil POV pushers are rewarded. If you want people to believe you, then it's time (as I keep advocating) for the admins to start enforcing the others. NPOV as a starter. Clamp down on that, and you will find that users (on the whole) won't be around to be uncivil. It's not difficult - although the evidence is clearly to the contrary. Shot info (talk) 09:31, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

The community has decided that WP:CIV is its most important policy, ahead of WP:NPOV, WP:V, and all the rest. (Don't even think about WP:IAR.) It's frustrating to those who value content, but you can't fight city hall. You either play the game by whatever rules you're given or you get off the field. Raymond Arritt (talk) 09:45, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

The community has decided that WP:CIV is its most important policy, ahead of WP:NPOV, WP:V, and all the rest. Another assertion with which I must respectfully disagree. In fact, that is precisely why I linked to WP:FIVE. These fundamental principles form a whole. It makes no more sense to think one is more important than the other than it does to think that your heart is a more important organ than your brain. But as far as "getting off the field if you don't like the rules" - yes, I completely agree. Dlabtot (talk) 10:07, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

This can be tested empirically: make impeccably neutral edits supported by top-drawer reliable sources and use uncivil edit summaries, then make POV edits supported by the lousiest possible sources but do it civilly. See which gets you into trouble faster. I'm not suggesting you actually do this, but I think the outcome of the thought experiment is obvious and is supported by past experience. Raymond Arritt (talk) 10:35, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

I don't know why you posted this below my comment, as it seems to be completely unrelated to anything I have said. Dlabtot (talk) 13:06, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

Not only can it be tested, the evidence supporting it is rather apparent. Saying it doesn't happen is just rewarded the civil pov-pushers, but that is the default position, and has Ray states, no point fighting it. Too bad it isn't actually the rules of the game, just umpires being selective in how they do their job(s). Shot info (talk) 10:45, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

(Outside view as an interested but uninvolved ordinary editor) Shot info, I think part of the problem is that enforcing civility is content-neutral, while enforcing NPOV requires making judgements about content. As soon as an admin tries to evaluate where NPOV lies in a contentious article, that admin is an involved participant in the content dispute. And since admins are explicitly prohibited from using their administrative tools to adjudicate a content dispute, there's no straightforward to "enforce" NPOV. I think the current system relies on the assumption that anyone focused on pushing a particular point of view will also trip up in more objectively measurable ways, such as incivility, excessive reverting, lack of sources, or abuse of multiple accounts. Most of the time, that's true. Sometimes it's not, and then what do you suggest? --Reuben (talk) 18:24, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

So what you are saying is that admins don't enforce NPOV, and just enforce CIVIL - because it is "easier"? This agrees with what I have been saying (and others have disagreed with I note). The solution is for admins to become more informed, not involved, of the issues. Too many admins opt for the "civil" solution and reward the civil pov-pushers, while with a bit of care and attention (and doing some of this stuff called "work") the correct solution can be applied to correctly ID the real editwarrior. Besides, as it is noted over in Homeo-land, almost every admin adjudicating over there has been "involved" at some point or another. Something which is proving to be a problem for admins. My personal solution is "AGF" for involved admins regardless of the level of involvement because if an admin editwars, well that what we have AN/I for. But as we see here at AN/I, an admin can 3RR (and even "civilly") and get off scot-free. God help us if the watchers don't watch their own watchmen. Shot info (talk) 01:48, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

Not just because it's easier, but because the admin tools and the rules for using them aren't very well suited to allow the admins to enforce NPOV. I agree with your assessment of the problem, but I don't think there's much the admins can do about it. As soon as you decide who's a "civil pov-pusher" and who's a "good editor," you're involved in the content dispute and ineligible to use administrative tools, so the admins are in a bind. Again, this is my observation as a non-admin. --Reuben (talk) 08:39, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Refocussing

Jossi's behaviour is troubling. He has been told that he is not considered uninvolved or a trusted mediator by a particular side, and yet he continues to maintain he is, and to take actions to the point of violating 3RR. Can someone explain why that is considered OK? Relata refero (talk) 08:06, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

He's been told that by both sides (see e.g., the comment by Martinphi, who is a paranormal-oriented editor[4]) but in this case both sides are wrong. Unfortunately I don't know how to fix that since I'm just a science geek and not a lawyer or diplomat. Raymond Arritt (talk) 09:50, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

From my perpsective, it became a problem when he had to "edit war" to assert his uninvolved neutrality. What should have happened (given the half dozen admin eyes on the page, and the assumed dozen more watching it) is that a different admin should have made the revert so that Jossi wouldn't have had to do it himself. No one is perfectly objective or as we say here "neutral". But I imagine that more than anything, Jossi got riled by the lack of support that he should have received. My comments here notwithstanding, I hate how this turned out, mostly because, with the recent block of that cat guy (gal?), it reinforces the (mis?)understanding that being admin is more than just having a mop. R. Baley (talk) 10:51, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

I have to admit I've looked through some of Jossi's edits in this area, and I have to say that in my opinion he and the rest of us would be best served if he looked elsewhere. I can recommend several other problematic areas that would benefit immensely from his energy.

I'm not sure what Martinphi's objection is, but he seems to be more welcoming than the other 'side'.Relata refero (talk) 13:32, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

I have to agree with some of the above. Although I respect Jossi, he should know perfectly well that 3RR is a community consensus and he has ample methods to deal with the situation other than what occurred. No one is served by allowing admins to IAR content-issues where they are related. Rather it presents the image that admins are under no restrictions to do as they will. The project already suffers from too much of that image. It's almost a daily refrain. I also agree that the extent that Jossi has self-involved now becomes problematic.Wjhonson (talk) 20:23, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

The 'content' in question, though, was the warning template. Actually, instead of reverting the editor who kept changing it without discussion or consensus, Jossi should have just blocked him for violating the probation. Dlabtot (talk) 17:40, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

If all of Wikipedia were handled as the homeopathy page is being handled we could easily get the community down to pre-2004 levels tout de suite. •Jim62sch•^dissera! 20:14, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

I don't see Jossi's behavior to be the issue that needs discussing and possibly remedial action there. FeloniousMonk (talk) 20:48, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

Right. Why is insisting on non-involvement when he appears pretty involved not worth discussing? Relata refero (talk) 23:08, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

Because Sgt Friday always supported Bill Gannon. •Jim62sch•^dissera! 23:53, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

When both sides in a dispute think the admin is on the other side, that's a pretty good sign that they're neutral. Is jossi regularly involved in editing homeopathy articles? Jayjg ^(talk) 00:01, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

Can you substantiate that belief in this case? Which people think Jossi's anti-homeoepathy? Frankly, I don't think you can, so I suspect the statement's irrelevant. Relata refero (talk) 09:17, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

Apparently he's only made a couple of edits to Homeopathy itself, but a larger number of edits to Dana Ullman (apparently some sort of homeopathy advocate). He does however seem to have been fairly heavily involved in the talk pages of both articles but only since January 22. -- ChrisO (talk) 00:59, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

He appears to have edited Dana Ullman only from the 26th to the 28th of January. In other words, no, he's not regularly involved in editing homeopathy articles. Jayjg ^(talk) 02:20, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

And yet, somehow, has managed to be a perceived problem in that much time. Do we really want this particular editor imposing hair-trigger sanctions in this area? Relata refero (talk) 09:17, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

Ah, I see, so some edits = uninvolved. Or <30? <10? > 1000000? I seem to have missed that bit where uninvolved becomes involved? Will enjoy reading the tortured wikilawyering to justify this bit of Adminoversight (tm). Shot info (talk) 03:00, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

When I added it up the other day it was 114 of his last 500 edits. I'm sure I counted incorrectly. •Jim62sch•^dissera! 05:55, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

Oh, BTW, I don't think he's on one side or t'other, I just think his behaviour is questionable (at best). •Jim62sch•^dissera! 05:58, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

Under the "some edits = uninvolved" standard, I would be an uninvolved admin, as I've only edited the talk pages of Homeopathy and deadly nightshade in the last few days; otherwise, I've never touched homeopathy articles. If I were to enforce the probation, though, I don't think I'd be perceived as an uninvolved party... --Akhilleus (talk) 06:19, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

As I've articulated above, I have no problems with admins being "involved" and this exercise is showing that making admins "uninvolved" is a futile exercise. However in saying that, the normal avenue to policing admins should they start to break the rules (ie/ other admins, nominally via here) is shown to be broken (ie/ by Jossi's very example). So the only way to police it, is to force admins to be uninvolved. And as we see, what constitutes "uninvolved" is largely in the eyes of the AN/I and seems to differ from admin to admin. Perhaps if admins actually monitored for editwarring rather than civility....well, we wouldn't be here and lots and lots and lots of typing would not be needed. But as we can see, that's just too difficult... Shot info (talk) 06:38, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

In my time as an IT manager, I've found that I much prefer technicians who were deeply knowledgable but rude and uncivil over those who were nice as Mother Teresa but clueless. But that's just me. •Jim62sch•^dissera! 08:30, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

The difference is that computers don't complain about who's servicing them... -- ChrisO (talk) 08:48, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Question about admin action

[edit] Can somebody review this and, if possible, delete it?

[edit] Copying and pasting own deleted contributions

I've been reviewing my deleted contributions, and there are some edits there (mostly those to user talk pages of users who have asked for their talk pages to be deleted) that I would like to retrieve (at some point) and record on a subpage of my userpages. Is this an acceptable use of admin tools? I'd say yes, because I still have the copyright on my contributions, even after freely licensing them under the GFDL, but I'd appreciate confirmation of this. Carcharoth (talk) 05:36, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

I'm not sure that's the best use of your time, but I don't see anything against policy, assuming obviously that there's nothing problematic in the edits themselves. Regards, Newyorkbrad (talk) 05:40, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

I'd agree with Newyorkbrad. Under the GFDL, you still own your comments, so go for it. ~Kylu (u|t) 06:25, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

Is this about Squeakbox? Obviously, there's no copyright reason you can't ... but please make sure you aren't treading on WP:POINT territory. --B (talk) 06:36, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

Not Squeakbox. It's actually Bishonen's talk page. I vaguely remember a long mini-essay I may have posted there (though it may have been somewhere else), and that is one of the things I'd want to organise and move to the right place at some point. And Brad, my time is my own to spend, like everyone else here. I could have just viewed the edits, and copy-pasted them off-wiki, but as some of the comments involve on-wiki stuff, I'd prefer to keep them all in one place. Carcharoth (talk) 13:09, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

I am a non-admin editor and I would like access to this same facility. Where can I review my deleted contributions and obtain copies of same? I would not wish to preserve them on-wiki, however I assume I have the same rights under the GFDL as described above.

I'm thoroughly confused with the user-talk deletion policy (NOT the user-page deletion policy). I was fairly sure I'd read articles to the effect that user-talk pages were not subject to right-to-vanish or courtesy-deletion provisions when they contained substantial edits by other users. Over the last few months, I've seen several talk-page erasures carried out by fiat, now I can't find the policies, some of the pages I thought I'd read have been recently edited, so I'm just not sure exactly what the policy is anymore.

In any case, I'm comforted that all GFDL contributors will be extended the same rights. At least I hope they will be... Franamax (talk) 11:34, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

Custom is changing towards greater ease of deleting user talk pages as well as user pages. Maybe this should be debated more fully. See also Meta - RTV. You might want to check out Category:Wikipedia administrators who will provide copies of deleted articles. Tyrenius (talk) 11:45, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

Custom is changing? Is that the same as the community consensus is changing? Or is custom being changed? Maybe this should be discussed more widely, it's disconcerting to read ArbCom cases and watch the links go from blue to red to blue before the voting starts, at the highest forum in the land.

Pace Carch, who only started the thread, but I assert my exactly equivalent GFDL rights. How do I go to a provide-deleted-article admin and say "it's in a history thread somewhere, I think it's there"? How do I know what to ask for, when I can't see my deleted contributions? I'm not chasing any particular edit here so it's not ANI-worthy, but the question has been asked... Franamax (talk) 12:37, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

You ask them to review your deleted contributions and, in my opinion, provide you with a list of deleted pages. You can generate this sort of list yourself if you have the "watch all pages I edit" option turned on. Then review the list of pages you have watchlisted and note the ones that have turned red. You can then decide which ones are worth taking further. Carcharoth (talk) 13:09, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

For the record, Franamax, you have 15 deleted edits. 14 of those are to subpages of your userpage. One is to User talk:Freshacconci. This is a fairly simple request to fulfill, but more complex requests may need more discussion. I'd be uncomfortable posting this sort of information on-wiki in a complex case without more consensus behind it. Carcharoth (talk) 13:14, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

Thanks Carcharoth, I've now turned that option on, it will save me clicking "watch" on every page I edit, the way I have up 'til now. As I said, I'm not pursuing any particular edit, or anything other than a principle. But there you go, which of those subpages was the one where I wrote "please kill me"? (In the db-userreq, part of a defined software test, with a funny-ha-ha explanation, honest :) Are we equivalent? I can't see my licensed contribution, although someone could restore it without my knowledge or consent at any time - but you can see all of yours, any time you want, and make copies of them. And you can make copies of my GFDL edits which I myself have no (browsable) access to?

The salient point here is that I am not able to view the text of my own deleted edits, thus I have no way of pinpointing which edit I might wish to ask someone else to provide me details of. The broader point is the promptness of responses to purported RTV requests; declarations of "I'm leaving"; self-page-blanking; and the resulting loss of community overview of the leading events.

No, I have no particular complaint, I'm asking the general question: what is the defined policy on talk-page deletion? and does that defined policy address the concerns of non-admins who don't have free access to examine and browse the contents of individual edits? (PS move to talk at your option to spare the ANI page) Franamax (talk) 13:53, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

I'm sympathetic to non-admins being unable to see their deleted edits. I've said in the past (even before I was given the tools) that this function should be tweaked so all users can see their own deleted edits (but not the deleted edits of others). Those who post unsuitable material may recycle what has been deleted, but that will only get them blocked faster, and there is no way to distinguish between re-posting of off-wiki stuff and repoting of on-wiki stuff. Anyway, you are right, the stuff specific to our edits should be taken to talk. Feel free to leave a note on my talk page. Carcharoth (talk) 17:03, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

Oh, one thing I forgot. Some of the edit counting tools (the ones that scrape the contributions logs) give a total number of edits that is the non-deleted edits. API queries (eg. here) give the total number. Theoretically the difference is the number of deleted edits. Unless you do lots of tagging of pages that get deleted, the number of deleted edits should be quite low. Carcharoth (talk) 17:08, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

I think it is time to get community consensus against deleting talk pages, especially those of admins. For admins, everything we do should be visible unless there is very good reason otherwise. Except of course for removing vandalism, though i see that many of us dont even bother removing vandalism, just archiving it,. I would also support this for other users. And I agree with Carcharoth about seeing one's own deleted contributions. For one thing, it would cut down on unnecessary requests at Deletion Review for emailed copies. DGG (talk) 17:53, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

One very slight problem - what about when your talk page has a huge number of edits and doing anything with it risks slowing down the server? I had to move my edit history recently to an archive for that very reason. Orderinchaos 11:51, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] I deleted the Main Page

It was sort of an accident. See, the Main Page used to be blocked from deleting because of the 5000 revision thing. I was bored a bit, and looking at the Main Page's deletion log from the delete interface. I asked in IRC whether it's possible to delete the Main Page again. A certain user who might like to show up here, possibly, told me that he tested it and confirm doesn't properly work. I was a tad too gullible and tested it for myself. Luckily, the damage was reversed and I think everything should be back to normal. Sorry, folks. Maxim_(talk) 20:31, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

Yup, that was my fault. I thought it was obvious I was joking, but clearly it wasn't. I accept the responsibility for this one, and I'd like to appologise to everyone for that - I was way way way out of line here. Ryan Postlethwaite 20:33, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

It seems a couple desysoppings and bans are in order. ;) --Rory096 20:35, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

Well my pride is seriously damaged, that's for sure. Ryan Postlethwaite 20:37, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

"Jumping off an 70-floor building won't kill you, I tried it and was fine"... Whitstable 20:34, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

I've never heard anyone who jumped off of a 70-foot building complain about it. --B (talk) 20:59, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

It should be noted that jumping off tall structures has never killed anyone - it is hitting the hard stuff at the bottom of said structures that usually causes the problem... LessHeard vanU (talk) 23:05, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

It's not the fall that kills you... —Animum (talk) 23:37, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

Also, you can undelete a page, you can't unjump off a building. --Deskana (talk) 23:35, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

Did you guys know that if you put a picture of goatse on one of the interface pages, it doesn't show up? srsly --- RockMFR 20:37, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

I don't see any need for anything to become of this. I support forgetting about it- everyone makes mistakes, and everyone forgets that jokes don't translate well over the Internet. It is pretty funny though. J Milburn (talk) 20:38, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

C'mon, that's about how I feel now... I deserve a big chunk of the blame for actually pressing that damned button. Maxim_(talk) 20:38, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

Awesome. --Masamage ♫ 20:39, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

• hmmm, yes well ...! :) Black Kite 20:39, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

• As I mentioned on Talk:Main Page, perhaps we should institute some sort of protection against these things? We could have another prompt to enter one's password before an edit to the main page went through, and an "are you sure?" box before one deletes the main page. That could help prevent some of these things from happening. --Rory096 20:49, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

It wouldn't have helped. Ryan told me, jokingly, that it simply won't work. So I foolishly tested it myself. Those wouldn't have stopped me... Maxim_(talk) 20:52, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

True, but if a box pops up that doesn't normally pop up saying "Are you absolutely positive you want to delete the Main Page?" you might have been alerted to the fact that one can, in fact, delete the main page. Also, the password prompt would have prevented the editing of "Wikipedia" to "Dickipedia" that happened this morning. --Rory096 20:55, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

However, as I said on Talk:Main Page, it wouldn't have helped with our penis-image-related vandalism the other day, as that was through an edit to a template. The templates are edited a lot- needing to put in your password would not help. Anyway, most people would have their password saved anyway (is there a way to get around that?) and having to enter your password would slow down reversion, too. Sounds pathetic, but I think we need reverts almost instantly in the case of main page vandalism. J Milburn (talk) 20:59, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

How long does it take to enter in a password, though? It seems like it would only be a very minor inconvenience, even if it were applied to templates on the Main Page, and it would only add a second or two to reverts, which wouldn't really make a big difference, especially considering it would probably prevent vandalism that would last longer than the extra couple of seconds any vandalism that did get through stayed up. --Rory096 21:08, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

The Main spage os the cornerstone of Wikipedian society. adding extra protections to prevent it form being vandalized is the most worthwhile ambition imaginable. I seen o reason why we cannot formally ask the developemnt team on wikipedia to consider adding this to the program. Smith Jones (talk) 21:22, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

I see no reason why we shouldn't expect administrators to behave better than this. This is a behavioural issue, not a software one. Risker (talk) 22:00, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

This was an accident that could have been prevented if he realized he was mistaken, and this morning's incident was a result of someone gaining access to a computer logged into an admin account, and it would have been prevented if a password were required. --Rory096 22:09, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

• See User:Pedro/Sarcasm for my "long standing rationale" on this ... ) Pedro :  Chat  21:50, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
• I noticed this. Assumed it was a mistake of some kind. Still, did it really take 13 hours for the protection to be put back on the Main Page? Or was the page really still protected all that time? Carcharoth (talk) 21:55, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

• If you have the correct timestamp format enabled in your preferences, you will see that the two log entries are only 19 seconds apart. —Animum (talk) 22:04, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
• The protection was removed by the delete, not the edit this morning. --Rory096 22:10, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

• This needs to go into WP:BEANS. The definitive Wikipedia beans. Hiding T 22:11, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

Best laugh of the day on here is this thread. ThuranX (talk) 22:23, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

Thank you Maxin, that's hilarious. Do you now get to put a "This user has deleted the mainpage" userbox on your userpage? Tim Vickers (talk) 22:42, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

• I can't work out if by writing Wikipedia:Don't delete the main page I have violated WP:BEANS. With apologies to Ryan and Maxim. Hiding T 22:53, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

I have no idea how this happened. I can personally attest to the fact that the Main Page was impossible to delete for about the past month -- since 'bigdelete' was implemented. It seems the Main Page no longer has 5,000 revisions. How? I have no idea. A word to all admins: if the form appears, it means you can delete the page. The warning message takes the place of the form if it isn't possible to delete the page (try United States for an example). --MZMcBride (talk) 22:58, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

NNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! (sorry, couldn't resist). 23:01, 3 February 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Hiding (talk • contribs)

By all means, encourage admins to attempt to delete the United States :) GeeJo ^(t)⁄_(c) • 23:03, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

You lot are a bad influence. Especially with the goatse idea lol.:) Merkinsmum 23:05, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

We need a Wikipedia:Village stocks to list these things, then we can all go and giggle and/or throw rotten tomatoes at people who delete the main page and crash the servers by deleting the sandbox.  :-) Gwinva (talk) 23:16, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

Great idea! BTW, I tried to delete the United States, and the warning notice appeared. :-( Carcharoth (talk) 23:18, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

Carcharoth, if you'd succeeded in deleting the United States, I have a feeling there are some smaller nations who would be forever in your debt. (Now if you'd just delete a few of our politicians, as well....)Gladys J Cortez 00:02, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

Even stranger things have happend to the main page in its long and turbulent life... How about this: [8]? I personally quite like the name "Little Barrier Island" for the main page... -- Ekjon Lok (talk) 23:25, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

I've added some MediaWiki: namespace magic that should hopefully make deleting the Main Page a bit harder, at least... -_- krimpet✽ 23:58, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

Bad idea, Maxim - you're supposed to take it to AfD first. Anyone for Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Main Page? -- ChrisO (talk) 23:59, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

Oh, man, that is FAWESOME! And I thought User:Scientizzle did the most-amazing deletion ever when he broke the whole 'pedia...what was it he tried to delete again? Isn't that why the >5000-edits thing was supposedly put in place in the first place? Anyway, kudos on your amazingness--you are now the official patron saint of us folks who trip over rocks, spill things on our shirt, and otherwise make unintentionally-hilarious mistakes. :) Gladys J Cortez 00:00, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

OK guys, I went and created Wikipedia:Village stocks. Do with it what you will. Turn them into patron saints, too, if you like.  ;-) Gwinva (talk) 00:03, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

• Ban all admins from Wikipedia for one year and let us regular folks go back to business as usual..:) Igor Berger (talk) 07:29, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

According to this tool, the Main Page is only 8 edits shy of 4,000, and could've been deleted for not reaching the "bigdelete" limit (5,000). That's been fixed now. We laughed, some cried, let's move on. - Mtmelendez ^(Talk) 14:13, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

• That's nothing. If you add Lemonparty to Mediawiki:Loginsuccess, it doesn't work! Luigi30 (Taλk) 15:14, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Process attack by Hu12

Admin Hu12 has now instead of making an attempt to resolve this dispute, escalated the situation by reporting my own site here to the Spam police. Grossly mischaracterizing the situation. It seems to me that he is attempting, yet another process-end-run to try to discredit anyone pointing out his own anti-project behaviour. Wjhonson (talk) 06:14, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

Attack? Neutrality is an important objective at Wikipedia, Unfortunately the External links policy on Advertising and conflicts of interest states You should avoid linking to a website that you own, maintain or represent, even if the guidelines otherwise imply that it should be linked, which is in line with the conflict of interest guidelines. This is not the first time this has been an issue with you, seeAN/I Original research and linkspam on Talk:Mike Huckabee.. You're here to improve Wikipedia, not just to push adjendas or funnel readers off Wikipedia onto your site, right?..Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Spam#http:.2F.2F.countyhistorian.com--Hu12 (talk) 06:26, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

What's "this dispute" which you refer to, Wjhonso? (it's linking to WP:DR, not to any specific dispute) El_C 09:27, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

And you know we've already run this EL process and your position failed. The previous AN/I failed as anyone can see. There was no follow-up, and no further action. And all reviewers can plainly see that this situation has developed solely because you are seeking to discredit me for pointing out your own conflict-of-interest in the entire King of Mann / unrealroyal.com circus. Wjhonson (talk) 06:31, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

Wjhonson, rules are rules. It's your site. WP:COI tells you what to do with it. Besides, it fails WP:RS and WP:EL, so it's inclusion is dubious regardless of the COI. Shot info (talk) 06:44, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

I am not in disagreement with that interpretation Shot info. I have a few rare times added a direct link to an article I've writen to an in-wiki article page. As A.B. correctly pointed out on the Spam Project, editors are not only allowed, but encouraged to provide in-TALK links to information, including their own, that might be useful for developing article detail. For the most part that is indeed what I did. In the few cases, where there is a link from article space to my site, I would have no problem at all, with removing them. Hu12 has never approached me to resolve this which would be the normal and correct first step. His report is merely, part and parcel of the entire long-running King of Mann fiasco. Now that Mann has evidently returned to Wikipedia, I'm sure we'll see much more of this sordid situation.Wjhonson (talk) 06:58, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

You were aware of this back in March 2007 @ AN/I Original research and linkspam on Talk:Mike Huckabee., so there is no excuse and I yes I've notified you ^[9]. While one or two talk page request may have have been appropriate (discounting the WP:RS and WP:EL issue), spamming 18+ additions to talk pages is called Canvassing (Source soliciting), and unacceptable.--Hu12 (talk) 07:46, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

I tend to agree with Wjhonson here. This does not seem to be extensive or intensive enough to warrant blacklisting. El_C 09:21, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

Can I have a link to the "spamming 18+ additions to talk pages," please? El_C 09:38, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

See also - →Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Spam#http:.2F.2F.countyhistorian.com

• 7 March 2007--26 August 2007--1 February 2007--5 February 2007--06:20, 2 April 2007--6 March 2007--arbitration/Bluemarine 10 January 2008--July 2007--December 2007--9 November 2007--30 December 2007--7 March 2007--5 March 2007--rfc/Bluemarine 19 September 2007--1 February 2007--23 August 2007--26 August 2007--12 August 2007--28 May 2007--Deletion review 28 May 2007
  --Hu12 (talk) 10:33, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

• This is all from a while ago, so what prompted the latest? El_C 10:39, 4 February 2008 (UTC)
• What's the problem with his comment at the rfc/Bluemarine? El_C 10:43, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

It being a continuation of past behavior, but that was an honest statement. Nothing here in my opinion warrants blacklisting (not sure who brought that up, nor did I suggest). These reports take time (started a month ago), and the long term nature (since 2004) of the additions required just that, more time. In any event, if one or two talk page request were made probably wouldent have spent the time as it would have been appropriate (minus WP:RS and WP:EL).--Hu12 (talk) 11:08, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

(OD) No redirect Hu12. Anyone who reads the AN/I you linked above can see quite clearly that no action or response was taken. You have failed Hu12 to notify me on my talk page, or request any sort of reaction or response there. That is the first step in dispute resolution not the last one. And I reject your repeated use of the word "spamming" in this derogatory fashion. Anyone can clearly see, the links were placed over a long period of time, and were directly related to updating certain particular article details. Admin A. B. has already addressed this for you, since you seem confused about proper use of external link information on article talk pages. You have misinterpreted our policy a number of times, which is disconcerting since you should be in a position to understand it more clearly. Your behaviour here and elsewhere is really quite remarkable. And I don't think I need to clarify that any further. El C, the 18+ Talk links to which he refers, were diffed by him on the Wikiproject Spam link, Hu12 provided above. Anyone can read them, and convince themselves that those diffs, have no relation to spam, the links being directly related to information useful for expanding the articles. And placed on the talk pages as we as editors are encouraged to do. Hu12 is just fishing around for something to use against me. Whatever might stick.Wjhonson (talk) 09:52, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Blocking of User:X3210

Could someone please review the blocking of User:X3210, it followed an incident where an administrator incorrectly reverted his user page (that the user had blanked as is his right) [10] and told the user it was not allowed. I became involved because of this post Wikipedia talk:Don't restore removed comments#Disagree in which the administrator cited this as an example (which is also unfair and should be removed).

When I checked the page it seemed to me that the administrators involved acted hastily, without complete understanding of policy and with a serious misunderstanding of the users contributions (the use was characterized as a "vandal" and all I can see is that he was undoing vandalism on Tom Petty, incorrectly tagged an IP, apologized for it and then blanked his page after the other involved parties had replied. I don't see where an attempt was made to verify policy until after the incident had escalated. Thank you. Awotter (talk) 06:30, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

It seems X3210 was (wrongly) told not to blank his talk page, proceeded to make a WP:POINT by blanking someone else's user and talk page, and that got him blocked by a previously uninvolved administrator. I see no error in that administrator's actions. Sandstein (talk) 07:08, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

For the record, while it looks like the people who reverted the blanking of this users talk page were not entirely correct (any user may blank their talk page at any time; blanking of ones own talk page confirms that one has read any messages thereof; archiving is not required, and we don't make users wear Scarlet Letters.) the users response thereof was ENTIRELY inappropriate, as they seemed to go on a blanking rampage of other users talk pages. So, to sum up, this user SHOULD have been allowed to blank their own talk page; the people who told them this was not allowed were incorrect. However, the users response was entirely inappropriate, and merited a block. In the future, users should contact admins here or at WP:AN and not attempt to rectify a misunderstanding by revenge. I endorse the block, but the editors who told them the wrong info should be set straight also. --Jayron32.talk.contribs 07:10, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

Gah - I just wrote a long post with diffs to try and clarify the sequence of events, and here I get beat to the punch >.< I agree that the editors need to be set straight--it's worth noting that a user even used rollback to restore the contents a couple of times, although they later posted on the talk page that blanking is acceptable. --jonny-mt 07:23, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

First, he blanked his talk page, not user page as stated above. I have no problem with people blanking their user page at any time. It is, however, correct that I was mistaken about user talk page policy. I still disagree with that policy, and the essay that backs it up. In the future, I will only restore very recent warnings that were clearly removed in bad faith; I understand that still technically contravenes policy, but I have seen many editors do it. Second, I of course didn't block X3210, or accuse him of vandalism. He was blocked (31 hours) by Slakr because he blanked my user talk page, Pumpmeup's user page, and told me to "buzz off". I did not request that block.

I don't understand what is unfair about me "citing" my blanking (I didn't cite the block, or say the block was justified) at Wikipedia talk:Don't restore removed comments#Disagree. I was quite frank that I had done something that was in violation of the essay. I also explained why I disagree with the essay. Superm401 - Talk 07:28, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

Other than making a user wear a big giant red "A" on their chest, what is the purpose of preventing registered users from blanking their own talk page? --Jayron32.talk.contribs 07:37, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

WP:refactor. Igor Berger (talk) 07:41, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

There is none, anybody can blank their own talk pages. It's usually a sign of frustration when vandals or other editors who've been warned again and again keep blanking warnings, and the legit editors keep stuffing the warnings back up to show they've been tagged as vandals. It happens. Heck, it happens to me, too. Snowfire51 (talk) 07:45, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

Actually I had no problem with the dude blanking his user talk page at all, since it's our policy to allow users to do that. Of course, when he started retaliating at others for restoring the pages instead of taking the issue here or elsewhere, it seemed like a clear issue of civility and harassment/retaliation. However, if the user is willing to be civil and use the proper channels for resolving disputes, I'll be more than happy to unblock him/her. --slakr^\ talk / 07:47, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

Well I like to keep it all transparent. To me it is a Red Badge of Courage! But that is just me. Igor Berger (talk) 07:49, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for the replies, I should make it clear that I don't think what the did user was at all appropriate, but had it been handled better and a bit slower, the user might not have gotten to that point, in fact the user did reply on the talk page of the admin initially and not in an uncivil way and his page was reverted again.Awotter (talk) 07:56, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

There's a reason we have multiple levels of warnings. If someone pastes gibberish into an article one time, I'll give them a polite warning. If I see they've done it before, I'll give them a more severe warning or block them. But I don't want to look in the talk history, just because the user prefers to blank their page completely every time someone puts a message. Superm401 - Talk 13:38, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

• We shouldn't really be surprised that users react poorly when they perceive they are being harassed, and lash out at those they see as the harassers. Someone restored X3210's talk page hours after it had been blanked, and without leaving any explanation. Gimmetrow 07:51, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

  Communication is the key! Templating regular users does not work. They are not vandals. If people would learn to communicate better we would have less Flame Wars going on! Igor Berger (talk) 07:55, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

True, restoring someone else's talk page shouldn't be done. However, to me that's a very small problem. When a blocked editor has caused trouble all over the place, legit editors get frustrated and sometimes make bad decisions. To misappropriate Chris Rock, "I ain't saying I would have done it...but I understand." Snowfire51 (talk) 07:57, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

• • However, neither should we condone the lashing out. This user wasn't exactly a newbie, and any reasonable person never resorts to blatant vigilante-style revenge when faced with perceived harassment. I am nto surprised when people act like dicks, but it doesn't mean I think it should go unchecked. Reasonable people look for authorities to turn to when they perceive harrassment by others. This user's first response was to return fire. Hardly a proper move... --Jayron32.talk.contribs 07:58, 4 February 2008 (UTC)
    • Actually, the first response was this at 3:46:04, which looks pretty civil. Then at 3:46:59, Superm401 restores X2310's talk page, and at 3:47:56, X3210 blanks Superm401's talk page. Not the best response, but hardly seems to have merited a once-and-final NPA warning. Gimmetrow 09:37, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

• Superm401"In the future, I will only restore very recent warnings that were clearly removed in bad faith; I understand that still technically contravenes policy, but I have seen many editors do it." I'd like to suggest may be you not be concerned with what users do on their pages talk or otherwise, good faith, bad faith or indifferent faith. If they've blanked it they've read it, that's the essence of the policy. The warnings don't disappear.Awotter (talk) 08:02, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

It may not have been known by the editor that users have every right to blank their pages, even involving bad faith, warnings, block notices. That's something a lot of editors have a problem with, from what I've seen. Snowfire51 (talk) 08:03, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

I never said they disappear. I said they become needlessly inaccessible. It seems like this policy exists for the whims of editors, without any consideration for the efficient functioning of the wiki.Superm401 - Talk 13:38, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Banned user Grawp

Grawp is reverting a large number of redirects to non-notable D&D articles using the IP 71.107.164.232 (talk • contribs • deleted contribs • WHOIS • RDNS • trace • RBLs • http • block user • block log). I request that someone block him and semi-protect everything the IP has touched. FWIW, these redirects were all made by User:Craw-daddy who I see as one of the D&D "fans"; one who is editing quite reasonably. --Jack Merridew 07:41, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

I don't know about the sockpuppet accusations, but the massive reversions seem to be a problem. --Jayron32.talk.contribs 07:46, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

Alison dinged them. So resolved. --Jayron32.talk.contribs 07:49, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

Thanks, all. Alison seems on top of this; he'll rant on the ip talk page until someone protects it a while. Watch for a return on some other IP or D&D-themed sock account. Cheers, Jack Merridew 07:53, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

Confirmed as Grawp yet again. Also Keysapart (talk · contribs), now blocked - Alison ^❤ 08:01, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

And 71.107.164.232 has had their talk page protected to prevent further trolling. --Jayron32.talk.contribs 08:02, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

He's back with IP tag-team tactics such as [11] [12] which fake-out ClueBot [13]. Cheers, Jack Merridew 08:36, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

Blocked the 3 IP's in question as probably grawp socks. SQL^{Query me!} 08:55, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

Thanks. --Jack Merridew 10:23, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

nb: also came back as User:Whomtends but that's all over and blocked; should be checkusered. --Jack Merridew 10:24, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

Done and checkusered. Blocked another account and its underlying IP - Alison ^❤ 11:09, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Odd vandalism on Jakarta International School

Hi folks, Just a bit of odd vandalism - a user appears to be making some form of bomb threat (be it a prank or not) to a school, Jakarta International School. The user is Soul_988, and I've added a regular vandal tag to their talk page - just wanted to let an admin know in case there's any special procedure or perhaps this is genuine in any way (I don't want to make a call like that myself). Thanks. SMC (talk) 10:30, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

Diff is here, contact details are here. Worth somebody who's familiar (if there is anyone) letting them know — alex.muller (talk) 11:01, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

• Looks like a vandal. But you never know! The user made the same remarks to another school as well Special:Contributions/Soul_988 Who knows what are procedures for this type of behavior? Igor Berger (talk) 11:10, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

Someone like that can just be blocked indef now, right? Several years ago there was thought to be a risk of an attack and the school was actually closed for a time. Hardly a laughing matter (although it sounds like bored kid). --Merbabu (talk) 11:15, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Main Page discussion (notice)

Just in case anyone has missed it: Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard#Adding useless revisions to pages to make them undeletable. See also this wiki-tech mailing list post. The main outcome seems to have been this, which means that all main pages on all wikis are undeletable and unmoveable. Please, no discussion or comments here (go over to WP:AN to add comments). This is just a notice. Carcharoth (talk) 11:16, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Notice of AN post

Please see Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard#Summary for three issues (A, B, C) that I think it would be good to discuss in regards to a recent block of a bot and a set of admin actions:

• (A) Consequences of BetacommandBot's week-long block and how to handle the work it does.
• (B) Whether an arbitration case should be opened to handle the desysopping points (East718).
• (C) Whether there has been abuse of a bot flag (Betacommand)

Posting here and notifying of discussions there, to avoid splitting the threads. Carcharoth (talk) 13:30, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] User:Swatjester

[edit] User:Zenwhat Civility issues, 2nd incident

In addition to the previous complaint, now, apparently a public noticeboard has degenerated from content discussion into a railing against my persona itself, as can be seen by clicking here. I'm not sure how content issues have merited that my entire persona become the focal point of a public discussion of "crankery." Sadly, I'm also not sure why these attacks are not engaging some form of intervention. WP:NPA seems to offer me some protection against this mess .... "some types of comments are never acceptable: Using someone's affiliations as a means of dismissing or discrediting their views — regardless of whether said affiliations are mainstream or not."

Not quite as serious, but another recent problem that troubles me is that Zenwhat has taken to misquoting me, in an apparent attempt to cast me as a gullible idiot. Here he states how I've assessed myself to be overly biased and deluded. I've never made such an assertion.

These attacks have persisted despite my admonishments to Zenwhat. Please look into the matter. Any consideration would be very greatly appreciated. BigK HeX (talk) 19:28, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Observation by User:Mayalld

Having had a, pretty minor, run-in with User:Zenwhat over the past couple of days (he was restoring comments to user talk pages that the user had deleted), I'm unsure that this is an AN/I case. Far more a WP:WQA issue. Having said that, there is an issue to resolve. The user is not infrequently abrupt, and seems to believe that WP:IAR means that he can unilaterally change policies and guidelines quoting WP:DICK. Mayalld (talk) 20:06, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

Thanks, Mayalld. There seems to be disagreement over which forum is appropriate. My previous issue was bounced back from the WQA, though not entirely due to "inappropriate forum." I'm not really sure where to turn on this. Dedicating an entire noticeboard section based on his characterization of my persona, instead of focusing on the verifiability of content seems to thoroughly cross the line, but in any case, please advise which way I should turn. I kinda need for his disparaging behavior to stop. I'm thinking only an Admin can make that happen, at this point. BigK HeX (talk) 20:14, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

I was the editor who handled the WQA complaint. It was bounced back because, as noted, there are several existing unresolved threads already open on two other forums, AN/I and FTN. When a complaint has already escalated to AN/I and to this level of discussion, there isn't much a friendly note from a WQA clerk without administrative abilities is going to do. It's already being addressed elsewhere, and since it appears to be an ongoing dispute, it's best addressed on a noticeboard where it will have the attention of admins or through mediation.

I'd also add that in the specific issue of restoring the deleted comments, I think that Zenwhat was acting in good faith. The discussion in question was about a policy/conduct issue. I believe he felt it needed to be addressed on the user's page and was frustrated that it kept being deleted. I'm reserving an opinion on everything else, because I've done my best to stay out of it. DanielEng (talk) 20:43, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Other Comments

IN Zenwhat's defence, this particular complainant is rapidly approaching tendentiousness in my opinion. Relata refero (talk) 20:16, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

Ah ... now that you've said it. Show how it's true. BigK HeX (talk) 20:20, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

• While I am inclined to think that Zenwhat's characterisation of your comment (diff) is tenuous, at best, I would recommend that this not be dealt with on the administrators' noticeboard, where nuanced solutions (which is what I believe is required in this case) are generally not arrived at (in part due to the heavy volume of posts to this board). --Iamunknown 20:32, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

Thank you. I wasn't aware that any other appeal could actually enforce any solutions .. ? well, except Arbitration which seems premature. But, anyways, I just need him to attack content, more so than me, personally. Whichever venue can make that happen is cool with me. BigK HeX (talk) 20:38, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

No problem. Re enforcement: individual admins can "enforce" things, though if they are contested, a review should generally happen here. My hope, however, is that we can arrive at a solution without the need for enforcement, but I guess we'll see.  :) --Iamunknown 20:42, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

Since this does appear to be something ongoing between these two users, how about mediation?DanielEng (talk) 20:45, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

Disagree. I'm no fan of Zenwhat for what I see as baiting other editors at Wikipedia:Article Rescue Squadron as seen here and here. There was also an AfD Zenwhat opened just to make a point which seems a bit abusive and some threads on Jimmy Wales talk that also seemed to be veiled soapboxing. Having stated this I have seen perfectly civil and constructive dialog take place elsewhere. Benjiboi 20:58, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

It seems that no interpretation is required to characterise Zenwhat actions at talk:ARS as baiting. He is overt about it when, in Wikipedia talk:Article Rescue Squadron#A request for comment, he asks other editors to comment on two articles and that AfD in order to - as he says a bit later on - demonstrate that the group's actions are disruptive. My impression is that Zenwhat is a learned person who's very deeply convinced of his own rightness and whose interactions with others here are characterized by that. Notice how he opens his dialogue with ARS in this section by titling it with a vicious insult and following up with more. --Kizor 22:38, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

The discussion is also going on here. Sincerely, --Le Grand Roi des Citrouilles^Tally-ho! 18:47, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Editor Rebuttal

This complaint is tendentious. His complaint is about Wikipedia:FTN#About BigK Hex on WP:FTN, created for the benefit of other users making edits to Monetary policy of the USA, who have also been having problems with this user. After being notified by User:Gregalton of some pretty bad sources being used on Monetary policy of the USA, I came across this user making some pretty absurd assertions and tendentious edits. I checked his contribs, found a number of blatantly absurd edits indicative of trolling through a single-purpose account, which I then reported on WP:ANI [15]. On the advice of some the users who responded, I posted an RFCU to investigate the possibility that this is the sockpuppeteer, User:Karmaisking. [16]

BigK HeX then used this posting as justification to start another thread on WP:ANI about "incivility" in a thread that admins themselves can already read a few pages up. [17] His WP:WQA was then issued for him on his behalf, by User:Addhoc, who copied and pasted BigK's remarks to WP:WQA with the dubious summary "add Zenwhat - copy from WP:ANI - no opion on complaint."

[edit] WQA / User talk Issue

[18] Administrators don't take the extra step of copying and pasting WP:WQA violations they think are unfounded or are indifferent to. Danieleng asked him about this and Addhoc removed his comments from the talkpage [19] and didn't copy his original comments to Danieleng's page, thus wiping the information from any future archives. Danieleng would then comment on Addhoc's talkpage, Addhoc would immediately remove it (they reverted a couple times over it), but they continued to discuss the matter on Danieleng's talkpage, where the rest of the conversation remained. I then attempted to restore Daniel's comments, because it seemed inappropriate to remove them, but was reverted. [20] I then posted a thread on Addhoc's talkpage asking him to stop removing comments and Addhoc again reverted it. [21] Within the policy of WP:Talk, he is fully free to do this of course, but Daniel and I both agree that it was belligerent and immature -- reasonable for a non-SysOp, not for a SysOp, however, who is accountable to the community. I recommended Daniel issue an RFC, but he doesn't think it's that big of a deal. I'm willing to just let it go also, but it's relevant here, so I thought I'd mention it anyway. Until 1=2 has continued to debate the matter with me on my talkpage, now referring to me as a "vandal" for restoring Daniel's comments with one revert. Based on that, I'm not going to debate the matter any further here or with Until 1=2.

I never called you a vandal Zenwhat, check your facts. If you choose not to debate further with me or others, then they will make their decisions without you. _(1 == 2)^Until 18:06, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Zenwhat/BigK

OK, so anyway, after this, I post the sub-section about BigK Hex on WP:FTN to demonstrate his past pattern of behavior, to help other editors. It seemed to be helpful to User:Itsmejudith who responded, "Thanks for this as I now see why editors were so concerned."

Then (a day after BigK's last posting on WP:ANI), BigK posts a second thread on WP:ANI about incivility over the same issue.

Is there going to be a third after this one, BigK? You're wasting others' time here and only seem to be digging yourself a larger hole.

That's all. I have no further comments on the matter. ☯  Zenwhat (talk) 22:36, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

• "BigK posts a second thread on WP:ANI about incivility over the same issue"

Funny guy. Obviously, the admins can quite plainly see that the two ANIs are referring to two incidents of questionable civility. In fact, this 2nd posting was made because the behavior was decidedly more aggressive, IMO.

• "Is there going to be a third after this one, BigK?"

Errr ... only you know the answer to that.

All of this inflammed commentary, and not a single apology. Kizor makes an intersting point, above. It is quite obvious that Zenwhat sees no fault in what are obvious personal attacks and is unlikely to disengage. This is why the matter has been presented. BigK HeX (talk) 23:20, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

Regarding Zenwhat's second paragraph, interested editors and admins may wish to see my (somewhat lengthy) remarks on Zenwhat's talk page: (talk page section) (diff). --Iamunknown 00:40, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

Some clarification: The remarks about User:Addhoc are a side-issue and yes, as Iamunknown just noted, based on my own misunderstanding of certain diffs. I think Addoc's actions were still inappropriate, but only mildly so, not worth arguing, even suggesting RFC, or taking note of, since all comments were restored in full on Daniel's talkpage. Sorry about that. Please ignore it. ☯  Zenwhat (talk) 00:56, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

On a side-note, thank god I didn't finish that policy proposal "requiring admins to not remove comments from their talkpages!"

I frequently have difficulty reading these horrible things called "diffs." Please, forgive me for my blatantly horrible reading comprehension and tendency to speed-read to the point of humiliating inaccuracy. Sorry for wasting your time.

Still: This apology extends to the matter of Addhoc. The diffs regarding BigK HeX stand and seem pretty solid. ☯  Zenwhat (talk) 01:03, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

Hi Zenwhat, thanks for your apology. Addhoc (talk) 11:22, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

"diffs regarding BigK HeX .. seem pretty solid" ... Hopefully, the admins will decide on all of that. BigK HeX (talk) 17:54, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Irish ISP user

• This is in regard to delete Siobhán Hoey and Aoife Hoey (bobsleigh) from an anonymous account that from the WHOIS file are all Ireland-based. Siobhán's effort to being deleted occurred last March 30, but was reinstated on April 4. Aoife was deleted, but I had brought it back in an effort to work on bobsleigh, luge, and skeleton. From both article's histories, I have seen where these edits look like they have been vandalized from these IP addresses. Also, this same user (or users) is attempting to delete Siobhán's article again and tried to put Aoife's article on the February 1, 2008 AfD before succeeding. Please have a look at this because most of these articles are Irish-based and there may be other signs of abuse as well. Thank you.

The accounts in question are shown below:

• 84.203.1.58 (talk • contribs • deleted contribs • WHOIS • RDNS • trace • RBLs • http • block user • block log)
• 213.190.141.211 (talk • contribs • deleted contribs • WHOIS • RDNS • trace • RBLs • http • block user • block log)
• 194.125.97.208 (talk • contribs • deleted contribs • WHOIS • RDNS • trace • RBLs • http • block user • block log)
• 213.202.149.105 (talk • contribs • deleted contribs • WHOIS • RDNS • trace • RBLs • http • block user • block log)
• 213.190.141.210 (talk • contribs • deleted contribs • WHOIS • RDNS • trace • RBLs • http • block user • block log)
• 213.202.132.52 (talk • contribs • deleted contribs • WHOIS • RDNS • trace • RBLs • http • block user • block log)
• 194.125.98.62 (talk • contribs • deleted contribs • WHOIS • RDNS • trace • RBLs • http • block user • block log)
• 194.125.52.12 (talk • contribs • deleted contribs • WHOIS • RDNS • trace • RBLs • http • block user • block log)
• 212.2.170.84 (talk • contribs • deleted contribs • WHOIS • RDNS • trace • RBLs • http • block user • block log)
• 194.125.76.92 (talk • contribs • deleted contribs • WHOIS • RDNS • trace • RBLs • http • block user • block log)
• 194.125.21.131 (talk • contribs • deleted contribs • WHOIS • RDNS • trace • RBLs • http • block user • block log)
• 213.202.183.229 (talk • contribs • deleted contribs • WHOIS • RDNS • trace • RBLs • http • block user • block log)
• 213.202.174.145 (talk • contribs • deleted contribs • WHOIS • RDNS • trace • RBLs • http • block user • block log)
• 213.202.138.250 (talk • contribs • deleted contribs • WHOIS • RDNS • trace • RBLs • http • block user • block log)

Chris (talk) 21:12, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

For context: this relates to the sub-stub Aoife Hoey (bobsleigh) and its on-going deletion discussion Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Aoife Hoey (bobsleigh), and the article Siobhán Hoey and its closed (as keep-cleanup) deletion discussion Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Siobhán Hoey.

Personally, I'm not seeing an incident. I'm seeing an anon with a bee in his/her bonnet about these articles, who is arguing loudly for deletion from multiple semi-dynamic IPs. But established editors are not agreeing and seem at the moment unlikely to do so. Such are the ways of AfD, the louder and longer the anon calls for deletion, the more established editors will say keep. This isn't to detract from the annoyance the author of the article will be feeling: it's just not all that an unusual circumstance (albeit usually anons ask for a keep). ➔ REDVEЯS has changed his plea to guilty 22:51, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

Maybe so, but if you click on the contributions to these links, you do see some of these articles linking to Irish related articles, including a few links that are single-purpose accounts (194.125.52.12, 213.202.132.52, 213.202,149.105 (all but one edit), and 194.125.97.208 (all but one edit).). These are things to think about. Chris (talk) 22:59, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

The same editor is continuing to readjust the Siobhán Hoey article even after the call for the second delete was withdrawn. I have asked him to stop hios vendetta, but it seems like they do not want to listen. Chris (talk) 20:35, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

I put in request for semi-protection of article to stop an edit war before it gets out of hand on the Siobhán Hoey article. Chris (talk) 15:24, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

Siobhán Hoey article now fully protected until next Monday. Chris (talk) 22:48, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

It's a shame that the IP editor is edit warring. I had found them determined but reasonable before that. But the whole vendetta thing they have going is just tiresome. Still, with (I imagine) solid keeps behind the two articles, dealing with them will be easier in future. Although they do have one good point: Despite their best efforts, the sisters didn't qualify is POV unless a reliable source can be cited saying that. Reducing the entry in Siobhán Hoey to The sisters didn't qualify solved that. ➔ REDVEЯS has changed his plea to guilty 23:02, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Blocking user comments

Is there a way or means I can use to stop or prevent or block Lanfear's Bane from harassing me by posting pointless comments to my user talk page which I have asked him (or her) not to do? Thanks. Julie Dancer (talk) 02:31, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

Isn't this like a month old? It looks like he stopped. Maybe you should too? --Haemo (talk) 02:55, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

Julie Dancer is only editing about once a month these days, so from her point of view it's something that's just happened now. --Coppertwig (talk) 03:41, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

Yes, thank you Coppertwig. That is the case. What I would like to know is if there is any way, such as with email accounts, that I can block or divert undesired comment from specific users? For instance, I can set up rules in my email client to screen out emails which contain profanity or are from unwanted admirers. Is it possible to do this here with comments posted to user talk pages? Julie Dancer (talk) 15:58, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

Physically and practically, no. However, I shall request the editor not to contact you directly again under threat of sanction - I will also put your pages on my watchlist. LessHeard vanU (talk) 22:55, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

Thank you, LessHeard vanU, very much. Julie Dancer (talk) 04:26, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

Was this even investigated properly? I posted a light-hearted comment on the ref desks which Julie Dancer deleted and jumped straight to my talk page calling me a disruptive troll. User was less than ten days old and personal attacking. User was also supported by Special:Contributions/71.100.168.148 (only one edit! surprise!). User was then deleting my response on her talk page without due cause. I feel that she might be a sockpuppet or a new user not familiar with jumping straight into calling people trolls. I suggest my comments on her userpage be reverted. Or I can do what she does which is just delete all the comments and then come and cry here? Lanfear's Bane | t 10:58, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

Yup. You returned a warning to the same user talkpage, misquoting WP policy to justify it. WP says that warnings, etc. can be removed since it is an indication that they have been read. You were asked to stop. You didn't. You are now acting in bad faith in suggesting they are a sockpuppet. If you were familiar with WP policy you would AGF or WP:DENY; whichever you feel is appropriate. I strongly suggest that you let this matter drop and get back to editing the encyclopedia. LessHeard vanU (talk) 14:01, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

Ah I think I understand now. Even though Julie Dancer is a troll / sockpuppet I gave her recognition by replying and then broke policy with three reverts to my own comment which she deleted? That's fair enough, I'll leave the comment however on my talk as I was unfamiliar with this. Jumping straight to a 'Final Warning' however seems a little drastic... Lanfear's Bane | t 15:22, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

Close. You issued a warning/comment, it was deleted, and that should have been the end of the matter. It appears that your interpretation of policy and guidelines is somewhat faulty, but that doesn't matter if you are now prepared to move on. LessHeard vanU (talk) 20:21, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Block of administrator RyanGerbil10

RyanGerbil10 (talk • contribs • blocks • protects • deletions • moves • rights)

I have blocked this administrator indefinitely after a conversation in #wikipedia-en-admins.

He vandalized the main page. :| east.718 at 07:08, February 3, 2008

He's also been emergency desysopped after a discussion in #wikimedia-stewards. Mr.Z-man 07:11, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

I suppose anything is possible, but I wouldn't think most people who go to the trouble of a committed identity would have an easily crackable password. His user page says he's a college student ... maybe a drunk roommate at the computer? --B (talk) 07:18, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

I'd believe it. My general experience is that how important an account is has no bearing on how good the password is, and that about 75% of users have easy-to-crack passwords. --Carnildo (talk) 08:18, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

I have taken a look at this with CheckUser on suspicion that the account has been compromised. Unfortunately, however, there was no unusual change in IP between recent edits and Ryan's normal edit. This would rule out the possibility that someone discovered his password (which is what happened in the last bout of admin account compromisings), and the simplest explanation is that he did it himself. However, there always remain those possibilities that CheckUser can't account for, like that he someone was using his computer, or that he left his account logged in on a public terminal (less likely because his last edit was hours previous). The devs are working on those two-way computer screens still. As I said though, without an insightful explanation from Ryan this result is pretty clear that is is likely there is no compromised account. Dmcdevit·t 07:21, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

The "roommate" theory does not seem particularly unlikely. - Jmabel | Talk 07:23, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

Well, the "compromised account" lexicon does cover a wide range of possibilities. Personally, I would wait for an explanation from RyanGerbil10 himself before further speculating or acting. —Kurykh 07:25, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

Considering that it's the hour when college students drink, my vote is on drunk roommate. --B (talk) 07:27, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

I agree. He may be having a party and somebody started playing on the computer. Or a young relative may have done the same. For the meantime shutting down the account is the right solution. He can straighten it out tomorrow if there's a good explanation. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 07:32, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

Umm, isn't every hour an hour when college students drink? Joe 08:01, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

Seems like a clear case of WP:Bold. the_undertow ^talk 08:37, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Comment from Ryan

The account is not compromised. Someone broke into my room, likely one of the kids on my dormitory floor. It is well-known that I am a Wikimedia sysop, I am surprised the vandlaism was not worse. I am in control of this account as I always have been, and the people who have used my account abusively have been reported to the campus police. This has been a terrible nightmare for me, I am deeply sorry that something like this has happened. RyanGerbil10(Kick 'em in the Dishpan!) 12:18, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

I was about to unblock per Ryan's request and explanation, but decided to allow the community to respond first (nice of me, being so magnanimous). Per AGF and Ryan's past record I see no reason to disbelieve him and support unblocking asap. Resysopping can be something left to Ryan once he is unblocked (I presume there is a record of his reporting the break-in he can provide.) LessHeard vanU (talk) 12:30, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

I actually unblocked him a while ago - how could he post here otherwise? :P east.718 at 12:39, February 3, 2008

duh!LessHeard vanU (talk) 16:28, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

All in all, I would say I prefer my usual hangover. RyanGerbil10(Kick 'em in the Dishpan!) 12:54, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

I'd say this is a fine example in support of the "Log out" button. I see no reason why he shoulden't be re-sysopped in light of the situation. --Hu12 (talk) 15:00, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

Is it possible to disable the "Remember me" button for admins? ;) Pairadox (talk) 16:20, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

I must say I'm somewhat amused by the fact that people assumed it was a drunk roommate. Are college students really that predictable to you all? -- tariqabjotu 15:36, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

Yup. ^Avruchtalk 15:42, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

Ryan's always done good by me. I'd give him back his full privileges before the incident, and say "shame on them for disrupting your account" and if something like this is to ever happen again then I'd say "shame on Ryan for letting it happen again". If that was to happen again then the de-sysop'in should remain. For now give him back the tools—he's a good admin. —MJCdetroit ^(yak) 15:44, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

• Support re opping. Spartaz ^Humbug! 16:18, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
• Hey Ryan, Windows Key + L when you walk away from the computer, even ones behind locked doors. SchmuckyTheCat (talk)

I'm usually very secure and confident, both in the people I live with and the building I live in. Obviosuly, that trust has been violated. Needless to say, I will of course be changing the way I log onto Wikipedia in the future. At first, I thought that perhaps, in my compromised state, I had done the vandalism, but when I dsicovered that things were missing from my room and that my desktop background had been changed to lemonparty, something more severe had happened. Speaking from the next morning, I just want to take this time to apologize formally to the community, and I hope that this episode, which has been a nightmare for me, can be safely put to bed behind us. RyanGerbil10(Kick 'em in the Dishpan!) 17:37, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

Thanks so much, I just googled "lemonparty". Are you serious that that on your desktop was the last thing you noticed? :) Relata refero (talk) 22:52, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

• I agree it would be fine for the stewards to give back the tools right now. DGG (talk) 17:46, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

Don't let this incident get you down. And I hope the campus police catch the people who did this. Nwwaew (Talk Page) (Contribs) (E-mail me) 23:03, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Suggestion that might deter admin account hacking

When admin accounts are hacked, it's usually to use the account's sysop tools to vandalize.

What if we had a second password needed in order to access the sysop tools on that account? For example, an admin logs in. They see a vandal that needs blocking. So, they hit the block button. In order to use sysop controls, the admin would have to enter a second password that is different from the account login password. Then, while they're active, and for an hour after their last edit, they can use their sysop tools normally. After an hour, if they came back and did an admin action, they'd have to enter the password again. Basically, think Linux: you have your ordinary user account. In order to do certain things, though, you need your root password. Nwwaew (Talk Page) (Contribs) (E-mail me) 23:03, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

Admin account hijackings are so rare and the damage done is so minimal, this seems like it will be more trouble than its worth. Mr.Z-man 23:34, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

More along the lines of an old BBS. On some software packages, sysops would have two passwords, one for logging in and one for logging in as a sysop. Luigi30 (Taλk) 15:09, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

I have the feeling most admins would probably save the password in their browser somehow anyway, since typing in a password repeatedly can get pretty repetitive. (Heck, I personally tweaked my sudoers file on my Linux laptop to stop it from prompting me for authentication :P) krimpet✽ 15:55, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

• Whilst it sounds good in theory, Wikipedia is not a forum. --Solumeiras (talk) 23:56, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Continued OWNership and reverts against consensus

Moved from WP:AN

On the article Boerboel, Frikkers (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · block user · block log) has continually defied consensus, violated the 3RR, and been uncivil. Blocked three times for violation of 3RR, admin Samir worked hard to personally facilitate a discussion, which Frikkers refused to participate in. In December Frikkers was blocked for one month as a result of attempting to change Boerboel back to his preferred version against the consensus of the discussion. As soon as his block was up on January 31st, Frikkers again reverted. As the last user (not me) to revert his latest actions put it in their edit summary, "rv WP:OWN of article against consensus, removing interwiki links and removal of sections by user repeatedly against consensus". Considering that Frikkers continues to not only makes reversions against consensus, but almost totally ignores attempts to engage him in discussion, I don't know what the best solution is. Please advise. VanTucky 04:07, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

I think it belongs at AN/I? Might get more attention there. Bstone (talk) 04:38, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

It looks like the user set up the account just to edit this article. Special:Contributions/Frikkers. If not ownership there must be WP:COI. Igor Berger (talk) 06:29, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

I think that might be a little bit of an assumption of bad faith, but it's also a logical possibility. I think the user also created an article on one registry for the breed, and part of his edits are to say that that particular registry is the sole real one for the breed. In general, Frikkers has ignored the reasonable attempts to engage him in the collaborative process. Any ideas for a solution?VanTucky 18:36, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

• Being that this user is not causing an immidiate threat to the Wikipeida project I believe this does not belong here and you should try WP:dispute resolution. I would try to mediate with the user but I am not an admin and the user may not respect what I have to say starting an edit war. So best to have an admin try to contact the user with some sage words. You can try User:VirtualSteve or User:Ioeth they will probably be glad to help you. Igor Berger (talk) 03:03, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

• User has bee blocked for 1 month by User:Davidruben. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 03:08, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] User:59.163.208.2

Could someone review this edit? User:59.163.208.2 has recently returned from a 31 hour block and made exactly the same kind of edit (s)he got banned for (removal of AfD notice) plus added a sharedip tag for the IP address they are using. The history of edits from this IP suggests a single user, plus a reverse DNS lookup gives 59.163.208.2.static.vsnl.net.in - implying that it is a static IP address. Is this a likely to be a disingenous attempt to prevent or limit future blocks? Thanks! Ros0709 (talk) 14:01, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

User:Edokter has since removed the sharedip tag. Unless that was incorrect this can be closed as resolved. Thanks. Ros0709 (talk) 20:08, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Break-in at User:Clevelander

I'd noticed a strange edit from Clevelander (talk · contribs), an account that had been unused since 2006 and which has its talk and user pages redirected to Aivazovsky (talk · contribs). So I put a note on User talk:Aivazovsky, and he put a note on my talk page at User talk:Nagle#User:Clevelander: "That was my old username. Apparently, someone hacked into that account and is now using it. I did not make any of those contributions listed except for the Rasul Guliyev‎ contrib and the personal attack noticeboard thing which should have been moved to my new username but apparently weren't. Again, I did not do any of those new contributions from 2008. Please stop whoever is doing that. Thanks in advance! -- Aivazovsky (talk) 11:37, 4 February 2008 (UTC)" Please take appropriate action. Thanks. --John Nagle (talk) 16:17, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

The account's logs state it was created on January 12 of this year. If there was a name change, that would have freed the old username up for someone else to register it, right? If so, it doesn't look like a hijacking case, although those old contributions probably shouldn't be attached to the new user. -- Vary | Talk 16:27, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

I'll block Clevelander indef, then. Compromised account, simple situation. Mangojuice^talk 16:35, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

Scratch that. Weird. Okay here's what happened. Clevelander changed his/her username to Aivazovsky very recently. A new user then chose Clevelander as their username. When the rename happened, some of Aivazovsky's contributions were deleted; WP:PAIN was deleted for about 2 weeks in January, and then restored. Apparently the restore granted the edits to a user who didn't make them. I am inclined to say that Aivazovsky needs to remove the redirect from User:Clevelander but it's important that the link be mentioned. I'm going to post at WP:BN to see if anyone can fix the situation, but probably not. Mangojuice^talk 16:41, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

And scratch again -- Clevelander changed usernames over a year ago. Clearly, the redirect should be dropped now. Hopefully the bureaucrats can straighten out the error with the edits. Mangojuice^talk 16:58, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

I think you need a developer for that. Thatcher 17:10, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

I'm on IRC now asking for a developer to come and take a look, hopefully one will be around shortly. Ryan Postlethwaite 17:18, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

Ok, I've updated the revisions (both deleted and undeleted) with the new name. (Note that the user rename system now updates deleted revisions, but that wasn't true at the time this user was renamed.) --Brion VIBBER (talk) 18:04, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

OK, so that's what's going on. Thanks. --John Nagle (talk) 18:34, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

I think the user and talk pages should have been moved following the rename, not redirected, right? They shouldn't be associated with the new 'Clevelander' account. Should I ask the user if he wants the old revisions merged into his current user page? Or just offer to move them to a subpage? -- Vary | Talk 21:40, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

Since there are many talk pages signed by the former Clevelander, it is often conventional to recreate the account and block it to prevent an impersonator from using it. Here this looks like someone picking a free user name. He may not want people thinking that all the pages signed by the old Clevelander belong to him. Someone should have a talk with the new Clevelander about picking a different name. Thatcher 22:26, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

After Brion's database changes I'm not entirely sure what happened here. Presumably some edits deleted at the time of the rename (when these weren't reassigned) were since restored. Do we know if the person who recreated trhe Clevelander account did so maliciously or innocently in the (actually correct) belief that the account wasn't taken? I would welcome advise about how to better educate users about considering recreating accounts after renames (these is info on it at Wikipedia:Changing username but I don't know how attentively users read the guidance notes... WjBscribe 01:39, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

There were some edits from WP:PAIN that were deleted at the time of the name change and didn't get renamed, but were since undeleted, so it looked like User:Clevelander had made 5 or 6 edits to PAIN in 2006 plus his 4 new edits. There is no reason to think the new account was a malicious recreation, but it is linked to all the old talk page sigs. Definitely some education needs to take place at WP:CHU, maybe the clerks or 'crats can send the user some boilerplate about recreating to prevent impersonation. Thatcher 04:09, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Undeleting and Deleting Corey Worthington

This person (also known as Corey Delaney) is all over the news and internet after holding a large party and making a number of appearances in the media. The article was deleted awhile ago and I undeleted it starting from scratch, thinking he is a notable person. Another admin deleted it again 6 hours later, and I believe the re-deletion was not justified and ignored the information I put in the article.

I had created the new page from scratch with something like 21 news articles from the BBC[22], International Herald Tribune[23], and major Australian newspapers, and American shows like Best Week Ever. The Times of London [24], AP [25],etc also talked about him.

I also added on a section about the aftermath and his activities after the party, which was one of the major concerns from before - his future prospects have been the subject of much media coverage - he has been "earmarked" to host the Australian Big Brother[26], he's going on an international DJ tour,[27] he's modeling in Australia[28], Ozzy Osborne was interviewed about him[29], hosting parties[30], and even smaller stuff makes the news - a contest to win his sunglasses[31], which also led to sales in those sunglasses exploding[32], he was beaten up outside a mall, which got a lot of press coverage (for example [33][34]) and when it came out that the fight might have been staged, it got more press coverage (i.e. [35]). There are tons of Facebook groups, t-shirts, etc for the guy, he's been called an "international hero"[36], "one of the world's most famous teenagers,"[37] and so on.

I would argue that he's notable not because of the party, but because of his appearances on the media, the reaction to those appearances, (such as [38][39] and even a t-shirt [40]) and what he's doing now, (TV gigs, tour etc) which to me would invalidate the argument that he is famous in connection with only one event. Even what his name is has been in the news.[41] So in short, I think he's notable, not just for one incident, and deserves a page here. It adds to the encyclopedia. --AW (talk) 17:39, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

WP:DRV is that way. Nakon 17:42, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

Moreover, the original rationale for deleting Corey Delaney was due to single-event notability, which we do not feel is notable per our notability guidelines. Unless he somehow gains fame based on something other than something related to his party, he's not notable and all recreations will likely be deleted as recreation of deleted material. --slakr^\ talk / 17:45, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

Nakon - right, but since there's already been one, and it says "in exceptional cases go to AN/I" I figured I'd do that. --AW (talk) 17:47, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

Slakr - yes, and i think I addressed that with Big Brother, the DJ tour, and the continuing news articles about him. He's still in the news weeks later for doing other stuff. --AW (talk) 17:47, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

I don't know about disqualifying "single-event notability" (like for say .. Neil Armstrong). This guy IS all over Google, and, apparently, local news in that area. I've never heard of him though, so I think his fate probably must come down to pretty arbitrary decision. Let consensus decide, perhaps? ... maybe an RfC somewhere or let the article stand long enough for an uncensored AfD? ... or merge these one hit wonders into a separate article ( One Hit Wonders)? BigK HeX (talk) 18:01, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

Slightly OT, but Neil Armstrong is not a good example of one-event notability! He would have plenty of material in his article even if he had never set foot on the moon. --Reuben (talk) 18:42, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

If you want it undeleted take it to DRV. That is the proper forum. (I'll be happy to support overturning then). JoshuaZ (talk) 19:03, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

Ok, will do --AW (talk) 19:06, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Block review of User:Paul Harald Kaspar

[edit] V-Dash Ban

Last month, V-Dash (talk · contribs) was blocked indefinitely by Friday (talk • contribs • blocks • protects • deletions • moves • rights) for not being a "positive influence" (block log). Recently, he has taken to evading the block with sockpuppets (see the contributions of DeathMark (talk · contribs) and Axzeuz (talk · contribs)), and from the looks of it, his impersonator has left Wikipedia. As such, I am now asking for a community ban of V-Dash - it's clear that he's going to keep harassing video game articles, especially ones for Nintendo systems, all whilst denying whom he is. -Jéské ^{(Blah v^_^v)} 19:48, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

A community ban is just an indef block never lifted. Since no one has lifted the block, then just block any and all socks when you spot them. User:Zscout370 ^{(Return Fire)} 19:54, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

We could run a checkuser, block his IP. Or at the very least find out if he's dynamic. Justin^(c)_(u) 19:56, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

He's not, AFAIK. All the socks match the IP used by the main account. -Jéské ^{(Blah v^_^v)} 20:04, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

V-Dash finally got splatted? Oh, thank God. HalfShadow (talk) 23:29, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Sockpuppet, possible wikistalker.

See TheEggManCometh (talk · contribs). Just look at their contribs. They make an account just to leave two bizarre messages on my talkpage and Kim's. ☯  Zenwhat (talk) 21:13, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

I suggest WP:DENY or AGF & ignore it, according to taste. LessHeard vanU (talk) 21:26, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

Yes, indeed. WP:IGNORE. Ok. Just ignore it. Sheesh, whats wrong with me. ^Avruchtalk 21:29, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

Oh man, wiki-itis there. Just ignore it, no need to WP:IGNORE anything. Mangojuice^talk 21:51, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

The user said "hi", stop seeing things where there are none. _(1 == 2)^Until 04:31, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] 86.20.169.102 mass removing prod's

Anon Special:Contributions/86.20.169.102 seems to be mass removing prod tags, it seems somewhat disruptive but I'd like someone else to look into it. I think my re-insertion of prod on Traditional leather fire helmets is acceptable enough. Benjiboi 21:27, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

• Anyone is allowed to remove a prod. This user appears to be applying logic and wikipedia policies in determining whether a prod should be removed. This is neither disruptive not inappropriate editing. If you disagree there is always AFD. I suggest you remove the prod you reinserted as it is no longer correct to insert it - especially as your reversion removed the sources and citations the ip had added the the article. Did you use rollback for this action? Spartaz ^Humbug! 21:59, 4 February 2008 (UTC)
  • I wasn't suggesting they didn't have the right I was suggesting that it may be disruptive. I reverted myself as I didn't see they had added two "further reading" items effectively doubling the content. There removal of the prod tag was edit summaried as "This is the correct tag", if they had written almost anything else like "adding two books" I likely would have just walked away which I'll now do. Benjiboi 22:22, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

It is disruptive. The user is an edit ninja. See Wikipedia:BRD violations. If edit ninjas cluster together, it can be a problem because good-faith users can't actually succeed at collaborating to create content, if such users just move from article-to-article, making one edit after another without any apparent attempt at discussion.

I took a look and this edit appears rather contentious. [45] The prod tag stated it wasn't notable for "general interest." When the user removed the tag, they put in the illogical edit summary, "Wikipedia's inclusion criterion is not 'only those things that interest everyone'". See straw man. ☯  Zenwhat (talk) 23:35, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

Zenwhat, this is not a ninja, this is a person. Anyone can remove a prod for good reason. _(1 == 2)^Until 04:33, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

But one is permitted to remove a PROD tag for any reason, without discussion (although, to be sure, it is helpful if one explains the removal in certain situations, lest any prospective AfD debate should be without information that counsels keeping), and a block (or even a request that the user cease the mass removal of PRODs) would be appropriate only were bad faith plain or were a disruptive impact clear; here, at least several of the dePRODded articles seem perfectly encyclopedic and quite likely to be kept, and many of the edit summaries, combined with the placement of the PRODs with cleanup tags in a few instances, do an acceptable job, if obtusely, of explaining the dePRODding. One may certainly dePROD with some speed if he/she works from PRODSUM and removes those tags that provide no reasonable reason for deletion (as, for instance, "[not notable] for 'general interest'") or those that almost certainly would benefit from a fuller XfD discussion, and I don't, on an admittedly cursory look, see anything to suggest that the editor here acts in anything but good faith or that the net effect of his contributions is negative or disruptive. Joe 01:50, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Posen speech

We're having a little problem with IP 189.6.238.83 (talk • contribs • deleted contribs • WHOIS • RDNS • trace • RBLs • http • block user • block log) at this article today. He continues to add information from Holocaust denier Arthur Butz to both the Posen speech and the article on Heinrich Himmler. Now, three single purpose accounts, Teoph (talk · contribs), Johanneskirchner (talk · contribs), and Earlybegin (talk · contribs) have begun to reinsert the information. Users Antique Rose and GoodDamon are preparing a sockpuppet report here, but with something this obvious it doesn't seem necessary. Could an admin step up and block the accounts and possibly semi-protect the articles? AniMate 23:25, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

• Three accounts blocked, two articles semiprotected. Anon confirms by email that this is all one individual. Guy (Help!) 23:32, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] behaviour 70.54.1.78

did the same revert 5 times within 24 hours [46] [47] [48] [49] [50]

personal attack here: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Claymore_%28manga%29&diff=189092809&oldid=189010735

Warning please? Twsl (talk) 00:31, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

I warned the IP regarding the personal attacks. The 3RR violation, however, should be reported at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/3RR. Thanks —Travis^talk 01:16, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Priory of Sion.com

Recently the website "Priory of Sion.com" has been blocked, following the banning of User:Wfgh66, who is Paul Smith, the owner of the site. Since then a group of largely anonymous editors have been deleting large chunks of content related to the Priory of Sion hoax that was sourced to the site (see Shugborough House inscription Pierre Plantard etc). Paul Smith's behaviour on Wikipedia has been repeatedly disruptive and often aggressive, biut that does not alter the fact that his website provides access to many important documents and other content relevant to a number of pages. These documents would otherwise be largely inaccessible. I think it would be highly desirable to unblock the site. A number of the reasons apparently given for the block were inaccurate. It was claimed that Smith was spamming pages with reference to the website. In fact Smith went to considerable efforts in the past to exclude references to his website on relevant articles (see Talk:Priory of Sion/Archive 1). Also, the material on the site is what is important not the opinions expressed on the site itself as a source. I can see no good reason to block this site since to do so merely gives succor to conspiracy theorists who can link to commercially published or even self-published conspiracy books as "sources", while links to authentic documents in national collections are excluded because they re otherwise difficult to access. In fact this draws attention to the some of the drawbacks - in practice if not in theory - with current sourcing and verifibility criteria. Paul B (talk) 01:11, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

I can only second this. Paul Smith's disruptions were due to one fact: WP's NPOV policy requires us to treat fringe theories about the PoS more gently than his website does. This led to the urge to dissociate his site from WP. Still, he is a very valuable source on the matter, provides many documents. Blocking the site seems unhelpful given that so many others are not and given that a lot of valuable information is hard to link to without it. Str1977 ^(talk) 01:45, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

I made the original block based on i) the site is not a reliable source, ii) it was the source of substantial disruption and iii) it was being aggressively pushed to promote a WP:POINT agenda. I believe the proper place to make the unblock request is WP:SBL but I remain opposed. Ronnotel (talk) 01:55, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

Actually, the blacklisting of the site does NOT prevent anyone from referencing articles that use documents contained at the cite. You just cannot LINK to his website, but there is no requirement that ANY reference be linked to ANYTHING. Any of the documents that he scanned and uploaded to his website can be referenced in EXACTLY the same manner as any print source or book. This is a non-issue, as the blacklisting of the site does not effect the use of any legitimate documents that happened to be scanned and uploaded there for research or referencing. Just treat it like a print book and move on... --Jayron32.talk.contribs 02:13, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

Verifiability and reliability is not inherited. If the source documents on his site are reliable, then cite those documents, not a self-published website. ☯  Zenwhat (talk) 03:21, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

• As long as doing so does not constitute original research. Thatcher 04:05, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Indefinite block on an IP for vandalism?

[edit] Problem User follow-up

as a continuation of this Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/IncidentArchive358#Problem_user. The images in question were again inserted in to the article [52], to which I removed them and left another note on his talk page [53]. This is the fourth time I've removed the image with an explanation. The editor continues to be unresponsive, at least in English. [54]. Here he responds to an editor in Korean, so he's either intentionally ignoring these requests or he doesn't actually speak english as he indicates on his user page. There needs to be some assistance here either from someone fluent in Korean or French, as well as an admin to clean up these images. There are multiple copies of them (and they don't seem to be used anywhere) but I think its fairly evident that these are not his own homemade creation unless he's a a bit of a graphics whiz, I'm still trying to track down their source.--Crossmr (talk) 04:37, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Soapboxing and article-ownership by Abuse truth

Somebody posted this on WP:FTN. Looking at the article's edit history, a certain username stood out as a red flag.

Abuse truth (talk · contribs) has been owning and soapboxing on articles related to sexual abuse and hypnotic regression, in particular Satanic ritual abuse. Their talkpage shows they've been warned for edit-warring a few times.

In particular, there's this silly section that was removed by Moreschi [55]. The editor restored it, along with a number of other deletions that had been made to the article by several other users. [56] ☯  Zenwhat (talk) 04:53, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

Please watch for typos.—Ryūlóng (竜龍) 04:56, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

Ack! Misread the diff. Sorry.

Soapboxing is still going on, though. Check the contribs. ☯  Zenwhat (talk) 05:01, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Is this an unapproved bot or am I being paranoid?

I admit it's possible I'm just being paranoid, but see this: Markussep (talk · contribs)

For roughly three and a half years straight (since August 2004), this user has, about 8 to 12 hours a day, 7 days a week, generated full directory entries (generally geographical data on eastern Europe, but also obscure European athletes) at incredible speeds.

Their edits also sometimes seem to follow certain algorithms. See my comments on their talkpage. Although, of course, that could just be a person themselves counting the alphabet.

Could a person really have the mental and physical capacity to do this?

Even if they're doing it manually, I told them to stop because it's anti-collaborative. Is this an unreasonable request?

So far, they've made roughly 1,500 comments on talkpages, while making roughly 42,000 contributions to the mainspace. That's not "collaboration." At this speed, it's not physically possible for the average editor to review these contributions for notability and so on, because by the time they have, the user has already created a couple hundred more. ☯  Zenwhat (talk) 08:37, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

This is allowed. User:Zscout370 ^{(Return Fire)} 08:43, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

Should it be? ☯  Zenwhat (talk) 09:38, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

Of course. We have bots all of the time transwiki articles to here from other places or create articles from databases. That is how we get the articles on all of the US cities and towns; a bot did them all. During the 2 Million article rush, many of the new articles were made by a transwiki bot from the Portuguese Wikipedia. We have a bot now that makes articles on all cities and communes within France. In fact, we welcome those. User:Zscout370 ^{(Return Fire)} 09:44, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

If it's just an approved bot, can we have the articles it creates automatically marked as "New page patrolled?" Pairadox (talk) 09:52, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

Bots like this are fine and long welcomed here in the community; they help create stubs that can later be expanded upon by human editors. A ton of our articles on populated places in the USA and elsewhere started out as stubs generated from census data and blossomed into well-written, comprehensive articles. krimpet✽ 10:03, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

• Zenwhat you need to investigate people not bots. Bots are not Evil. We are not Robo Rama movie..:) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Igorberger (talk • contribs) 10:31, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

It's not an approved bot and he denies that it's a bot. If you guys agree it's a bot, then yes, he needs to get it approved, per WP:BOT, since what he's doing drastically alters the mainspace and is therefore not just automated editing

Bots should not be auto-generating possibly contentious content, because as noted above, how are users supposed to collaborate? ☯  Zenwhat (talk) 10:52, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

Well is it a good bot or a bad bot? Igor Berger (talk) 10:56, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

If the bot does something disruptive or harmful to the project, I'd be the first one to block it; but where is this "contentious content"; and for that matter, how is it harming collaboration to be creating stubs for people to build off of? krimpet✽ 11:40, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

Hello Zenwhat, you forgot to mention your previous discussion with Markussep. Are you claiming that Markussep lied to you? How about notifying him about this thread? If you spent a bit more time editing the content of Wikipedia rather than trying to control its contributors you, too, might learn to edit so fast. --Hans Adler (talk) 11:25, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

In my opinion asking this kind of question here shows you still haven't learned to assume good faith. The editing patterns of this user are obviously not those of a bot. His core times are about 4 hours per day, typically something like 7pm-11pm Middle European Time, i.e. after work. Sometimes more during the weekend. Sometimes only an hour. If you suspected Markussep of lying to you the right thing was to check these things on your own by looking at his editing patterns with an open mind. Just selectively picking some details in order to make a case is a highly disruptive behaviour. Stop it. --Hans Adler (talk) 11:55, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

From all I can see, Markussep is human and collaborates with others on the creation of stubs for many towns and geographical features. He has an excellent track record of collaborating with others through WikiProjects, for example through many subpages of the Germany project. He deserves praise, not paranoia. Kusma (talk) 12:04, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

This is as far from good faith as I can see...I mean, if he's organized, efficient and committed, he must be a bot? Have you even looked at his edits? --Smashville^BONK! 15:04, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

Zenwhat seems to be hellbent on self-destruction. Over recent days, he has;

1. Restored comments to a user talk page that the user concerned had legitimately deleted per WP:TALK.
2. Responded in an un-WP:CIVIL manner to my assumption of good faith that the point above was due to not being aware of WP:TALK (he knows the policy, and disagrees with it)
3. Repeatedly copied whole conversations to the other parties talk page, due to his apparent personal belief that BOTH pages should contain a record of the exchange.
4. Messed admins about by getting his user page deleted and restored to make a WP:POINT
5. Now, this rather blatant failure to WP:AGF here.

He seems to be determined that Wikipedia will change every policy and way of working to how he wishes it to be. Mayalld (talk) 15:16, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

either way, since this started in 2004, there really was no approval process for bots. any bot operating prior to creating WP:BAG is automaticly grandfathered in. β^_command 15:45, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

I already explained this was appropriate editing to Zenwhat here: User_talk:Zenwhat#bot.3F. I have agree with Mayalld's observations, and I hold back in providing some observations of my own. I think Zenwhat could benefit from more attention from experienced users. _(1 == 2)^Until 16:09, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

Agreed. Zenwhat has started a number of threads over the last couple of months that could be described as vexatious. Leithp 16:17, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

Hans: "Are you claiming that Markussep lied to you?" No, hence the reason I titled this thread in the form of a self-deprecating question, "Is this an unapproved bot or am I being paranoid?"

Are you accusing me of accusing Markussep of lying to me? Please see WP:AAGF. Also, yes, I realized I need to AAAGF and you therefore need to AAAAGF, etc., etc.. The point: I'm not accusing him of lying, but I have difficulty believe it is just a user. If that difficulty is out of my own ignorance, so be it. That's why I asked here. I'm not reporting the man, but asking experienced users if it's possible for a person to actually do this.

Since most users say yes, then yes, I believe you. The claims about "self-destruction," and the need for an experienced user are both condescending and insulting, though they appear to be said thoughtfully and in good faith, so thank you. ☯  Zenwhat (talk) 20:52, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

Yes, I am accusing you of that:

• Markussep: "I can assure you that I'm not a bot, and that I don't use automation tools for my edits (except AWB for minor things, replacements etc.)."
• You start this section: "For roughly three and a half years straight (since August 2004), this user has, about 8 to 12 hours a day, 7 days a week, generated full directory entries (generally geographical data on eastern Europe, but also obscure European athletes) at incredible speeds." This was a gross misrepresentation. You did not notify Markussep, and you did not mention what Markussep told you.
• You again: "It's not an approved bot and he denies that it's a bot. If you guys agree it's a bot, then yes, he needs to get it approved…"

Now you accuse me of not assuming good faith because I asked you whether you want to accuse Markussep of lying? Hello?

Now what else did you do in this one day?

• A user whom you suspect of sockpuppetry told you that he has just been checked. Instead of apologising in this awkward situation you ask the user to provide a diff.
• You correct a typo on someone else's user page.
• You post to a thread "Immature sysops.in the IRC." that you had started earlier.
• You oppose an admin candidate on the grounds that you would like to check something first but that you were too lazy to do it. (Today someone provided you with a long list of diffs, and now you have changed your vote.)
• You create your "Cruft portal". You advertise it with a POINTy post to VP (policy), but nobody bites.
• The famous "Delete my history, please" story. Ryan Postlethwaite gives you a last warning: IAR is not for disruption. While he is writing this, you are writing this inflammatory suggestion to ANI.
• You ask an admin candidate a puzzle that has nothing to do with Wikipedia, and another what he thinks about your "Cruft portal".
• You complain to Benjiboi, because he has archived your disruptive WP:ARS thread, and then you post to Masem: "Help me delete WP:ARS".
• You post to VP (policy): "The inclusionist cabal now using bots to prevent deletion". A gross misrepresentation of the facts. Afterwards you make a POINTy post to the Bot owners' noticeboard.

The last three items were after Ryan's "final warning for disruptive edits". I have skipped minor things and one matter where privacy is an issue.

This was all in just one day. Can you imagine what happens on a day when 100 editors (out of > 6 million user accounts) decide to act up like this? And you are continually asking others to assume good faith or even assume high intelligence on your part. Am I the only person here who can see the contradiction? --Hans Adler (talk) 23:44, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, calm down, Hans. I'm not going to address your remarks if you're going to rant. You seem to be seriously reading into a lot of my posts. I do have a tendency towards knee-jerk reactions, but I admit it when I'm called out on it. For instance, you cite my thread above about the "inclusionist cabal," but you fall to cite the fact that I later retracted those remarks. [57] (And this was before you just made these accusations, btw.)

And again, if I was accusing him of lying, I would've titled this thread, "Bot-owner spamming Wikipedia," not "Is this an unapproved bot or am I being paranoid?" 1==2 thinks I'm paranoid and I'm willing to let it go. If I was 100% certain he was a bot-owner, right now I'd be fuming over 1==2 calling me paranoid and letting this continue. But I'm not. I guess I was just paranoid, mmmk? ☯  Zenwhat (talk) 09:58, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Petition to keep Muhammad images

this is a terrible idea and is likely to increase any current bad feelings that exist around the article. It has nothing to do with a) improving the article or b) calming the situation. I tried to remove it on that basis (plus the fact that's it canvassing for an off-wiki petition - something we rountinely remove) but it has been restorted. Some admin input would be helpful. --Fredrick day (talk) 19:46, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

Who are they petitioning? Themselves? Sarcasticidealist (talk) 19:51, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

Anyways, we do not need links to petitions on the talk page and we will still have the images as per the typical alphabet soup label people toss around. User:Zscout370 ^{(Return Fire)} 19:52, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

"Petitions" on external sites should have absolutely no impact. As long as it is legal to display pictures of Muhammed in the USA (where WMF's servers are located) they should stay on the site. Unfounded vandalism (including the page being bombarded by anon edits) needs to be removed immediately, no question, and laws concerning those images that shouldn't change any time soon. (Oh, and I should point out I'm not an administrator) — alex.muller (talk) 19:52, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

Sorry, you reply seems to suggest that you think I'm talking about the petition that was set-up a while back asking for the images to be removed? I'm on about a petition created within the last hour by wikipedia editors and linked to on the talkpage of the article. --Fredrick day (talk) 19:54, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

They are public domain since they are hundreds of years old, so they are legal to display everywhere for copyright reasons. User:Zscout370 ^{(Return Fire)} 19:55, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

em..yes? I'm not sure how this related to the issue that I'm bring to the attention of this board - this actually has nothing to do with the images themselves but the use of the talkboard by editors to canvess for an off-site petition that is only likely to inflame the situation. --Fredrick day (talk) 19:57, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

Yep, same one I thought – the petition currently on the main page of that site is apparently "telling" Wikipedia to remove the images. They're legal (I believe), so they stay, off-wiki petitions counting for nothing. Completely agree with User:Fredrick day removing the content in the above diff. — alex.muller (talk) 19:59, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

Agree with it or not, don't just censor it. Archive it if you wish, but don't remove it entirely. Zazaban (talk) 20:02, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

We routinely remove links to off-site petitions with comment or archiving - this is standard accepted practice, what makes your link any different? --Fredrick day (talk) 20:05, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

• I'm pretty sure this falls under the realm of a content dispute? The net effect of these battling petitions will be zero, even if the new one never gets any votes. Don't waste your time. Focus on improving the article instead of a crusade to get back at or convince those who disagree with you. ^Avruchtalk 20:07, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

But it's not a content dispute (Zazaban and I actually AGREE on content and I AGREE with the petition) - I'm simply trying to follow standard procedure that links to off-site petitions are removed - that has been standard practice as long as I have been here. It's nothing to do with the actual content of the article. --Fredrick day (talk) 20:08, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

Per WP:TPG, I don't see how the link to this petition furthers the quality of the article. I also think the original petition is completely misguided and pointless. If someone does not want to see the images, he or she is free to configure their browser appropriately to not show them. Anyways, both petitions are more likely to bring bigoted zealots than well-meaning editors. We should endorse neither, and should bow to neither. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 22:47, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

JZG has taken care of the problem (he wiped it), so I consider the matter resolved. --Fredrick day (talk) 23:17, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

Plus, we are not a linkfarm to petitions. User:Zscout370 ^{(Return Fire)} 23:21, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

I think I'm gonna start a petition against people petitioning Wikipedia... Aecis^Brievenbus 13:41, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Heavy-handed admin behavior at Muhammad

I would like to make a general complaint about the behavior of the admins at Muhammad, Talk:Muhammad, and friends. As many of you know, a petition to remove the images has been put up and several new anons have come by to complain on the talk page about the lack of images. Rather than respond to the same issues again and again, a FAQ page was put up at Talk:Muhammad/FAQ, inspired by Talk:Evolution/FAQ. This was turning out to be a decent summary of the issues involved, but suddenly Hiberniantears deleted it, with no discussion at Talk:Muhammad. When it was recreated, he deleted it again. He left the references to it up at Talk:Muhammad, however.

Guy has taken it upon himself to try to defuse the sometimes inappropriate discussion at Talk:Muhammad (to which I have contributed both helpful and non-helpful comments). I think leaving notes at the talk page of editors who have in his view gone too far is certainly reasonable (although he seems to have only done that with me), however he has also unilaterally deleted giant chunks of text at Talk:Muhammad and Talk:Muhammad/images. I think this is extremely inappropriate; I realize it was done with the intent of cooling matters down but I think it has the opposite effect, especially since not all the deleted comment was (in his words) "unhelpful".

My largest complaint is with DragonflySixtyseven, who took advantage of his admin status to edit the fully-protected Muhammad page to put, in effect, a "spoiler warning" at the top—once again, with no prior discussion on the talk page. This strikes me as a very serious change, setting a questionable precedent, and one that should not be in place without discussion.

The common thread here, aside from the article, is that all of these actions come across as heavy-handed, if not abusive. I don't view any of these actions as in keeping with the idea the admins "having a mop" mentality that admins are supposed to have, but rather a feeling that the admins are above the rules of discussion and consensus. The behavior displayed here leaves as bad a taste in my mouth as anything I've seen in four years of editing here.—Chowbok ☠ 02:07, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

This behavior is appalling. Are the actual editors chopped liver? The admins are actual doing more harm than good. Also, why the HELL was the FAQ deleted? Zazaban (talk) 02:18, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

The edit made by User:DragonflySixtyseven was indeed discussed on the talk page. He simply followed what was done in Bahai'allah page; how can it be a precedent then? I fully support this. --Be happy!! (talk) 02:19, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

It was discussed (1) after the fact, and (2) the tone was "I did it, and that's that". That's not what I mean by "discussion"—especially on a fully-protected page.—Chowbok ☠ 02:23, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

You are completely wrong. Have you been following the talk page? The connection was first introduced by C.Logan.--Be happy!! (talk) 02:26, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

I can see no consensus for the addition of such text. Pairadox (talk) 02:42, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

I'm mainly talking about the deletion of Talk:Muhammad/FAQ Zazaban (talk) 02:23, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

I'll point out that there's a similar message at the article on Baha'ullah; I'll also point out that I work OTRS, and we have been getting a very very very large number of complaints (some less articulate than others) about the presence of the images. After a lengthy back-and-forth discussion with one particular correspondent, and consulting with user:Cary Bass on the wording, I decided that this stood a good chance of, not "satisfying the most people", but "dissatisfying the least people". We're adults here, it's important to be reasonable and to be willing to compromise if need be. DS (talk) 02:21, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

The problem is, is that people who actually have been in the dispute have had no say in this whatsoever. Zazaban (talk) 02:24, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

• Admins shouldn't edit protected articles (particularly edits that substantially effect a matter in dispute) unless there is clear consensus on the talkpage to do so; I see no such consensus as established on the Talk:Muhammad page.

• I have no idea why the FAQ should have been deleted. It doesn't seem to meet the CSD criteria used - thats usually used to delete talk pages of articles that have been deleted. I'd like to get an explanation of that, and it should probably be restored in the interim. ^Avruchtalk 02:25, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

I've restored it. Would appear that there was vandalism to the article, and a CSD was applied without checking the history. Kuru ^talk 02:27, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

I have explained to Dragonfly elsewhere that I find it inappropriate to edit protected pages like this. OTRS is set up to handle complaints, but edits to articles are not made by OTRS; just by OTRS editors acting as editors. Adding content to a fully protected page is discouraged for good reasons. I would support reverting back to the version that was protected, and redoing only genuine error fixes that have been made since then.

The deletion of the FAQ also seems unusual - we have many talk page subpages, and they are typically not deleted simply because there is no article with their literal name. I hope that User:Hiberniantears will explain the deletion in more detail. Maybe he was tricked by vandalism and a CSD template. — Carl (CBM · talk) 02:31, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

It appears that I was too hasty in my restoration; it seemed clear that the vandalism was the cause of the double deletion, but I would appear to have missed the time stamps. Not sure why the second deletion would be using a G4 since that does not apply to speedies. I suppose an explanation would be in order then; and I apologize for my rapid restoration without letting the conversation advance. Kuru ^talk 02:40, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

Hmmm. The explanation by Dragonfly is troubling. It sounds as though this is meant to reduce the number of complaints at OTRS and was implemented after a private (at least off-wiki) discussion with one other editor. Pairadox (talk) 02:42, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

To be fair, the 'one other editor' is a Foundation employee. ^Avruchtalk 02:52, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

I was bold in my initiative to try to get new sections about the Muhammad issues off the talk page. Obviously, with any bold move if it meets too much resistance you stop it. I can't tell if the complaint about JzG means that the user is against removing old sections or against my attempt at having newly created sections moved. I will keep moving new sections until it's clear that enough users oppose this. gren グレン 02:54, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

I wasn't complaining about you at all. I have no problem with your moving threads to a subpage. JzG/Guy was deleting whole chunks of dialogue with the edit summary "unhelpful", separate from what you were doing.—Chowbok ☠ 02:59, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

JzG was doing the same thing as you were doing Gren except that he wasn't adding the unhelpful sections to the subpage but basically was cleaning up. --Be happy!! (talk) 03:00, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

Well, I don't exactly disagree with what he did. I just didn't think others wanted it--and well, I guess that's what this AN/I is about. Well, I'm glad it seems that most people are in favor of moving new conversations to the subpage. gren グレン 03:14, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

The Muhammad FAQ is extremely silly.

If the page reduces the number of complaints, even though the FAQ is silly, it may be good to keep. Though I understand completely why it would've been deleted. It gives POV-pushers a basis upon which to argue for their right to soapbox.

Imagine a sub-page on Jesus Christ: "Why am I not allowed to preach Christianity on Wikipedia?" Gimme a break. We shouldn't encourage this kind of behavior.

A more concise Muhammad FAQ would read:

"It offends Muslims" Irrelevant. See WP:NOTCENSORED. "The images are false" Irrelevant. See WP:V, WP:RS, and WP:FRINGE. "Muhammad's name should be followed by (pbuh) or (saw)" No, it shouldn't See WP:NPOV and WP:MoS. "The article on Muhammad is strongly biased towards western references" Are you sure? If so, then fix it.

It should get to the point and not dance around for the sake of appeasing POV-pushers. People who make such claims would probably outright disagree with the core policies of Wikipedia themselves, so it seems pretty silly to expend so much effort explaining things. One should not bite newcomers, but neither should they kiss trolls.

If, however, this is going to be the way things are run, to keep things fair, there ought to be an "anti-Islam" FAQ where Wikipedia can explain to the Islamophobes pushing a bigoted POV why Frontpage Magazine and the JihadWatch are not reliable sources. Of course, isn't that obviously ridiculous?

Heavy-handed administration (see rouge admin) is exactly what articles on religion need: To deal with people pushing a bigoted POV against the religion (atheists, anti-Christians, anti-semites, Islamophobes, etc.) and to deal with people soapboxing and proselytizing (Jews, Christians, Muslims, etc). Anyone doing this is violating policy. ☯  Zenwhat (talk) 03:15, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

Page restored to the state it was when protected. FAQ page restored. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 03:18, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

Actually, it would be better if we moved the current FAQ to something like "Extended FAQ" so that we can use a shorter, more concise {{FAQ}}, kind of like we do on Talk:Abortion. --slakr^\ talk / 03:24, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

It would seem necessary to me to maintain the wordy, if "silly", form of the FAQ. We have a high volume of non- or new Wikipedia editors coming onto the talk page to leave opinions/complaints, and I've dealt with the difficulties of explaining policies to brash new users one too many times. Just dropping one-word replies and policy tags will only make the issue more confusing and would make the FAQ useless to anyone unfamiliar with policy in the first place. Hell, explaining relevant policy points directly seems to fly over many heads; I feel that we need to explain the policies in the context of the discussion/issue itself for such uninitiated users to grasp why we are doing what we are doing here.--C.Logan (talk) 09:50, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

I agree that the "concise" FAQ is a bit bitey. If these were editors that knew any better, it might be justifiable (if a bit abrupt and rude), but these people for the most part do not know Wikipedia policy, and I do not see how throwing the metaphorical book at them will help the situation. Back on topic, the deletion of the FAQ seems to have more than likely been an accident, so I don't see what dragging this discussion out will achieve. Lankiveil ^{(complaints | disco)} 13:11, 5 February 2008 (UTC).

I'm late to the game on this since my editing is limited mostly to weekends, but for what it's worth, this was just a simple mistake on my part... I was moving through the CSD backlog at a good clip, and I mistook what the page really was for. My apologies to anyone who thought I was blindly deleting. My actual opinion on the page in question was entirely neutral. Hiberniantears (talk) 01:40, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Possible COI?

Is this the place to ask about a possible WP:COI? Bubba73 (talk), 03:33, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

Yes, but it is unfortunately NOT the place to ask if this is the place to ask questions... --Jayron32.talk.contribs 03:35, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

There's also WP:COI/N. Relata refero (talk) 13:26, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Questionable admin status: User:Shii