Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive342

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Contents 1 Continued vandalism on Digital_rights_management 2 User repeatedly adding his own blog to external links 3 username issue - second opinion requested 4 Shishno 5 User:Aranherunar 5.1 False accusation of vandalism on Mr. Children 6 edit warring at kwanzaa 7 Phyllis Chesler 8 User:Sam coles 1234 9 Requesting indefinite block on IP 10 72.39.110.204 11 User:Standshown 12 Talk:Capital punishment, Oboeboy (talk · contribs), 207.241.143.246 (talk · contribs) 13 Vandalism and reverting at La Plata High School 14 User:209.62.173.129 15 Sock harassment 16 User:Muntuwandi and the Origin of Religion 16.1 Evolutionary theories on the origin of religion, article name 17 User:Twsx 18 Attention needed 19 User:Eleemosynary 20 Kevin.Kinchen 21 A considerate vandal 22 Edit war on David Milband 23 Vandalism only IP 24 User:Qworty 25 Revision deletion requested 26 Persistant abuse by ip 27 User:Lyoshka 28 User:Jeeny 28.1 I wonder 29 Menudo (band) again, and legal threats 30 69.138.16.202‎ (talk · contribs) 31 Strange user, requesting review 32 Possible spam by Timjowers 32.1 Legistorm spammer 33 Is this a legal threat? 34 A second set of eyes 35 User:Matthew M. Stein deleting sourced content with POV edit summary at 9/11 conspiracy theories 36 Article becoming image gallery 37 Guy thread 38 Request review of User:JzG's block of User:Timjowers 39 User:Weasel123 40 User:Rock Soldier 41 Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Todd Marshall 42 Report of Repeat Offender- Deleting Portions of Article 43 External links added by Filtv (talk · contribs) 44 User: Knataka 45 User:Larry Lurkington and User:Betacommand 46 Un-semiprotecting 47 The dépeceur of Bergen (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log · rfcu) 48 Immediate action requested regarding email abuse 49 Concerns for User:Bluetim1 50 Talk:Seung-Hui Cho 51 Abusive identification of Legistorm.com as "spam"

[edit] Continued vandalism on Digital_rights_management

On 12th Dec 2007 a number of edits were made to the DRM page, all centered around the assertion that:

However, many sources do not make any distinction between copyright protection for software and for creative works and DRM can often be seen as an umbrella term that covers any implementation of copy protection.

The purpose of this insertion was made in connection to this post on an external forum, and whose purpose was to deliberately falsify sources, rather than to inform the larger public.

As a result, I am firm in the belief that the posts and their subsequent "citation" are in fact, merely a mechanism of deliberately asserting false statements. The "citations" are inconclusive at best, and their purpose is to decieve, rather than to inform. As per the two-revert policy, I have reverted this post twice, and have now forwarded the complaint here.

This is already discussed on the Talk Page of the article, and I have already a warning on the user page of iamacreditcard. This was promptly removed by iamacreditcard.

Unedit (talk) 22:23, 17 December 2007 (UTC)

This isn't the place to report vandalism typically. You'd get faster results by posting this on the vandalism board. -- Cat ^chi? 22:25, 17 December 2007 (UTC)

I have already done so. It was immediately removed by what I suspect is an automatic vandalism-removing bot or something. No comment was left on either the Talk Page, nor was the edit revoked, nor was my or the offending person's user page changed. As a result, I am posting here for a resolution. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Unedit (talk • contribs) 22:45, 17 December 2007 (UTC)

Your report to AIV was removed because the user was already blocked. east.718 at 22:50, December 17, 2007 I should stop drinking while editing. 04:50, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

I'm confused. The users in question (User:Masterhomer, User:Imacreditcard and User:131.91.80.21 are all still active, have nothing on their user page, and the edits have still not been reverted. Shall I go ahead and revert the article a third time? This seems somewhat pointless, given that the last two times I've done so, the offending content has been put right back. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Unedit (talk • contribs) 23:09, 17 December 2007 (UTC)

Your report to AIV was invalid; it was removed by User:HBC AIV helperbot3 while it was removing another request. You should use this format for IP addresses: * {{IPvandal|IP address}} brief reason for listing (keep it short) ~~~~ and this format for users: * {{Vandal|useraccount name}} brief reason for listing (keep it short) ~~~~ — Wenli ^{(reply here)} 04:26, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] User repeatedly adding his own blog to external links

On the Theresa Duncan page, there has been an edit war going on regarding which links are acceptable in the External Links section and which are not. I believe we've made progress through discussing it on the article's talk page, but one problem remains: A nonregistered user who has repeatedly added a blog (his own, it seems) back in despite numerous deletions and attempts to discuss with him on the Talk page. So far he is the only Wikipedia editor who's spoken up in defense of his blog being included. And when he adds the blog back in, he inserts comments in the link about how Wikipedia is censoring him and covering up facts about the "suicide" (his quotes) of Duncan.

When he identified himself (as Alex Constantine) in Talk he was posting from the IP 75.31.79.120. I think it's reasonable to assume the other edits adding his blog back in are his, because he appeared to be saying they were his, but of course I don't have any proof. The edits adding the blog have been made from 75.28.96.143, 75.31.68.46, and 75.28.143.244; as far as I can tell, the IPs all belong to AT&T in the Los Angeles area. (Sorry for not posting "diffs," but I am not quite sure how to do that, plus I think you have to review the editing history for the past few weeks to understand what's been going on.)

Note that I consulted earlier with a Wiki administrator, Pigman, and he offered an opinion on the article's Talk page and also left a friendly message for Mr. Constantine on the Talk page for 75.31.79.120. He suggested that, if this continued to be a problem, I might want to post here, because more admins would see it. Candy (talk) 22:54, 17 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] username issue - second opinion requested

I've engaged a user in a discussion about his username. The user seems to belive that I have a COI, so I feel that it would be inappropriate for me to file a WP:RFCN. Can someone else take a look a the user name Economiccrimesunit (talk · contribs) (signed "Economic Crimes Unit") and determine what (if any) action should be taken. Thanks, ---J.S (T/C/WRE) 00:24, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

My first thought when seeing the name — Economic Crime Unit — was neutral. Reading J.smith's first comment on the editor's talk page — " " made sense, but the "official" part was not clear, as it might be a stretch to think that one would interpret this as being a Wikipedia "official". However, Economiccrimesunit's note to User talk:Xavier687 here [1] — with "Vandalism Cease & Desist - Official Warning" in the edit summary and on the user talk page: "...this your official warning..." and "You are hereby WARNED that you are to CEASE and DESIST...." makes it sound "official". In addition Economiccrimesunit claims on his userpage to be a State's Attorney General. His response border on crossing the line on WP:CIVIL. — ERcheck (talk) 00:55, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

The problem here is the username in tangent with the users attitude. When he talks to vandals and new users, he implies that he has an official position within wikipedia - he certainly talks with an authorative tone - I'd suggest a forced name change, if he doesn't agree, a block may be required. Ryan Postlethwaite 00:57, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

And possibly WP:LEGAL, by the sound of things. JFW | T@lk 00:58, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

Well, yes, legal too. But I didn't want to poison the well by mentioning that in my first comment. There are what appears to be behavior and/or misunderstandings of wikipedia's purpose. ---J.S (T/C/WRE) 01:03, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

(ec)It doesn't look Wikipedia-official, but it certainly looks spuriously "official". Like, say, calling yourself "Police Commissioner" or "ISP Abuse Department". In combination with that kind of "warning" I'd certainly agree with Ryan - change the name (and a strong suggestion to read WP:BITE, the warning template page, WP:CIV and so on. Tonywalton ^Talk 01:08, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

Agreed; especially since he does claim legal authority in the "real world". Username change or username block at his choice. I'm going to notify him to that effect. — Coren ^(talk) 01:13, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

(ec)I've taken a look at his contributions. An article that looked a lot like spam, deleted. He then informed the deleting admin that "It seems from your contribution list that your (sic) are a frequent deleter" followed by advice on how to contribute constructively to the article. Article reposted, deleted by a second admin, and the second admin (JS) informed that "It seems from your contribution list that your are a frequent deleter", followed by the same helpful advice. Economiccrimesunit seems not to know what a broom is for. Tonywalton ^Talk 01:23, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

Well, I was going to let WP:DRV take care of that issue, should he decide to push the issue. A discussion is only productive to a certain point in many cases. ---J.S (T/C/WRE) 01:26, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

Agree a change or block is in order. Gtstricky^{Talk or C} 01:40, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

(undent) I've notified the user that a rename is required, and will give him some time to ask away. If they edit significantly without requesting the rename, I'll username-block until they do. — Coren ^(talk) 01:28, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

A Wikipedia:Requests for comment/User names has been filed, if anyone wants to weigh in. ---J.S (T/C/WRE) 02:30, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Shishno

This might be me being a bit overcautious, but any concern to the comment left in this article by the creator regarding hunting down someone by their IP? Wildthing61476 (talk) 01:18, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

That seems like a physical threat to me. --EoL talk 01:23, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

And to me. Verging on a CU (code A) to hunt them down and block their IP address. Article speedied as an attack page and {{attack}} placed on their talkpage. Tonywalton ^Talk 01:29, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] User:Aranherunar

There is a misinterperted Japanese reference at this article Ayumi Hamasaki. Information was provided on the talk page under the heading "sales" to show it was wrong, but this user continued to revert the article anyway, and responded to me with this racial slur "You can learn what you little pumpkin Japanese called "etiquette". Go drink a cup of tea" which I am very offended with. I also find his comment on my talk page insulting, particularly this sentence "In fact, please don't live in a world I assume you should not live in" 220.253.16.5 (talk) 18:42, 15 December 2007 (UTC)

I call for the rejection and ignoring of this completely premature content dispute. There is apparently a misunderstanding here, with this user believing me to have added the "misinterpreted Japanese reference". The Japanese reference and the corresponding comment had nothing to do with me- What I did, along with another user [2], was to revert [3] the edits in which the user removed [4] massive amounts of well-cited information, claiming "copyrights" which obviously does not apply and original research. The user also happened to have made several attacks on my person, but I will let that go as he is apparently a new user and has little experience. End of case. Aran|heru|nar 18:48, 15 December 2007 (UTC)

Aranherunar, I can understand that it can sometimes be frustrating to deal with confused new users, but why on earth did you have to use the term "you little pumpkin Japanese"?? What is the excuse for such incivility? Aecis^Brievenbus 19:03, 15 December 2007 (UTC)

I have self-reverted the comment after consideration, but I must insist that Japanese do look like pumpkins - if you are willing to go to the articles and make the comparison. This, I believe, is not a misleading description. I understand that unnecessary descriptions only add to the stress (or, in this case, possibly a tingle of shame) to other editors - however, as the editor has been making a lot of descriptions himself, some on me [5][6] (In fact, I did not even recognize the IP user at the beginning of this discussion - only now do I realize that I have had a few previous encounters with him, which probably explains why he accused me, wrongly, of "wiki stalking") and many on others [7] [8], I can' help but show the user that we, like others, can make descriptions. Thank you. Aran|heru|nar 19:18, 15 December 2007 (UTC)

Actually, the user added them back himself. If I do not misinterpret, being called pumpkins is actually an entertainment in Japan. Aran|heru|nar 19:21, 15 December 2007 (UTC)

In the meantime, I have protected the article for 2 weeks (at the wrong version, naturally), though obviously the protection should be lifted earlier if the edit war is over (however it ends). There was a subsequent flurry on my talk page, and I have told the two editors to go off and talk to each other and try to resolve their dispute. Both have conducted themselves poorly, and when I see one editor making a racial slur which is then wisely self-reverted and the offended editor reinstating it, I'm inclined to think that both parties need a cold shower. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 19:22, 15 December 2007 (UTC)

It was reinstaded due to this complaint, it appeared the user was trying to pretend they didn't write it. 220.253.16.5 (talk) 19:29, 15 December 2007 (UTC)

The information was removed because it is incorrect. It is also stated on the companies website (and the reference) that it may not be used without permission. The reference itself is misread, I even provided a reference from the same website, which mentions the first Japanese musician to sell more than 100 million records. This user claimed to speak Japanese, so I find it interesting they ignore both these points. I also provided an English reference to a news publication about the death of a famous Japanese female singer, who has achieved considerbly more than the singer in question. They are the only parts which were removed from the article. This user ignored them, and instead made a racial slur, and again insisted upon it!! I am very insulted by it. 220.253.16.5 (talk) 19:27, 15 December 2007 (UTC)

I claimed to read Japanese, not speak Japanese. Suntzu says, "知己知彼， 百战百胜"; Confucius says, "溫故而知新，可以為師矣"; Laotzu says, "知人者智，自知者明". By the way, somebody should learn to read Chinese! Ha. Ha. Ha. Not funny.

Your words are very wise, BrownHairedGirl. In fact, I haven't had a shower for two days. I'm definitely going for one now. So long, my friends, especially the one resembling a radish head. Aran|heru|nar 19:34, 15 December 2007 (UTC)

Aranherunar, coming to ANI and making further offensive personal attacks is not clever. I will now block you for 24 hours.

220.253.16.5, if you are offended by a comment, then reinstating it is simply disruptive: it remains in the page history, so there is no problem in determining who write it. Continuing this personal dispute at ANI is also disruptive, so you too will now be blocked for 24 hours. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 19:39, 15 December 2007 (UTC)

Now both blocked. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 19:47, 15 December 2007 (UTC)

... and one talk page protected due to further attacks. – Steel 19:56, 15 December 2007 (UTC)

There's more to this than meets the eye; after some strange edits this week, I spent some time looking through Aranherunar's talk page and edits, and found a pattern of warnings removed from his talk page with edits similar to those I saw. Since his/her user talk page isn't archived, I had to step through the diffs to see how frequently these issues are occurring, and found one instance of a claim of someone else using his/her computer. The issue I saw was at ¿Por qué no te callas?, where Aranherunar made a series of edits that appeared semi-legitimate, but removed a good deal of cited text that enjoys consensus. Red flags went up at one piece of strange original research, uncited prankish text inserted into the middle of the seemingly legit edits: [9] It looks like cleverly disguised vandalism, to insert vandalistic text among semi-legit edits. It's not clear to me if this is ongoing vandalism, pranks, someone else using the computer, or what, but I hope someone will take a closer look at the long term pattern of this user. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 20:07, 15 December 2007 (UTC)

In this edit, most of our Hong Kong English article has been deleted (without any allegation that the assertions removed were either untrue or erroneous). May I restore them? Alice^✉ 20:16, 15 December 2007 (UTC)

I see that text isn't fully cited. In the case of ¿Por qué no te callas?, Aranherunar twice deleted fully cited long-standing text, and replaced it with uncited original research prankish text. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 20:18, 15 December 2007 (UTC)

I reverted it. There may be some merit to the suggestion it needs review, but mass culls without discussion are probably unlikely to result in such an outcome. Orderinchaos 22:41, 15 December 2007 (UTC)

I have prepared a version with seven references hereAlice^✉ 23:38, 15 December 2007 (UTC)

I've extended his block to 48 hours after this completely unacceptable post on his talk page after the block. Orderinchaos 22:41, 15 December 2007 (UTC)

There does seem to be a common theme here. In this edit, ostensibly referenced material is removed. Alice^✉ 23:38, 15 December 2007 (UTC)

That ridiculous request for unblock deserves an indefinite block, imo. Aecis^Brievenbus 23:44, 15 December 2007 (UTC)

No rush. If the user needs an indefinite block, they will prove it time and again. The diff provided by Orderinchaos is the sort of thing that leads me to conclude that this accounts purpose is disruption, not encyclopedia editing. - Jehochman ^Talk 23:55, 15 December 2007 (UTC)

I am disappointed by the way this complaint has been handled, especially BrownHairedGirl's administratorship. Anyway, unless that user wants to disrupt the article again, or make further asinine racial remarks, this issue has been resolved. Thanks 220.253.144.187 (talk) 20:15, 16 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] False accusation of vandalism on Mr. Children

Excuse me but I also have a complaint in this matter in regards to 220.253.16.5. They have been editing out content in many Japanese articles in regards to sales record, and have been using only one English article to prove they are right (which only talks about one artist). They have given no other verifiable fact or resources, and pretty much have come to the conclusion that they are 100% right and the referenced source in the article is wrong. For example in the Mr. Children article, I reverted their deletion of Mr.Children's sales based on the fact that the Japanese equivalant of Billboard USA, called Oricon, said Mr.Children was the second highest selling artist. They even made a table in the article listing the top 5 artists. (and the statement was even referenced) This ip user then reverts my edit and then says this in the Mr.Children history edit page: "See talk page. You will be reported if you vandalise this page again,)". The Mr.Children article was NEVER vandalised, and this comment is totally uncalled for. They are threatening me for NO reason at all. I do not appreciate that. They even wrote this in my talk page: "Please refrain from making unconstructive edits to Wikipedia. Your edits appear to constitute vandalism and have been reverted. If you would like to experiment, please use the sandbox." I've been editing here for a while now and again this is totally uncalled for. I am not vandalising anything. These statements made were referenced with a verifiable source. I'm sorry if this is the wrong place to comment on this, but since it's connected to this dispute in a way I figured it was okay. And now I'm afraid to edit the Mr.Children article since they said they're going to report me. - Hedatari (talk) 00:31, 16 December 2007 (UTC)

No problems with raising it here. I've put a subheading on it to distinguish it from the rest. Orderinchaos 01:35, 16 December 2007 (UTC)

I gave you a level 2 vandal warning because you continued to add misleading and false information into articles. The reference you are talking about is not an article about the 5 highest selling Japanese musicians. It also clearly states that the article may not be used on any website, blog, cell phone, ect, without permission from the company. This can cause copyright problems for the Wikipedia. This is from that same company [10], which I'm linking here to resolve this problem. It is the artist page for Michiya Mihashi, who in 1983 became the first Japanese musician to sell more than 100 million albums. There is an English version at this website[11]. It appears it is your personal opinion that the band B'z is the highest selling Japanese musician, with around 75 million records as of 2007 (according to that same company) Edit: I'm not going to search for record sales of other Japanese musicians who have sold more than 75 million records, such as YMO. It is a rare thing for a record company to publish such information. Although an English news release about the death of Hibari Misora has already been provided on that talk page, and it details the amount of records she had sold at the time (which was 20 years ago) Please do not add information into articles, which is not true. This is the type of thing that mkes the English Wikipedia a poor website for learning. 220.253.144.187 (talk) 20:05, 16 December 2007 (UTC)

Firstly I NEVER added that original B'z sales statement to begin with. Someone else added that. I only reverted the part where you deleted it. Don't accuse me of stuff without thoroughly reviewing the article's edit history first. Secondly, like I said I did not add false information. Also the article can be used for encyclodic purposes as it is NOT stealing the information from the article. If it was copying and/or reproducing directly what Oricon had written in their article, then yes it could be considered a copyright violation, but instead it's linking (in addition to crediting) readers to the original source, in addtion to taking no direct quotes from the article to be in violation. Tons of Japanese artist articles here reference Oricon as that is their main source of verifable and factual information. Having some verifiable source to back up statements is better than having none at all. It seems this is something you are very passionate, and unfortunately, angry about but instead of trying to be helpful and work with your fellow wikipedia editors to improve these articles, you are bullying them and threatening to report them as vandals. - Hedatari (talk) 23:52, 16 December 2007 (UTC)

This has nothing to do with my complaint. I'm not being helpful and working with fellow Wikipedia editors to improve articles? I removed false information, and gave a polite explanation on the talk page, only to be met with racism from one editor and your ignorant and rude response. (below)

"It is NOT false information and can even be confirmed by the reference link that was listed. If you have a problem with the way Oricon calculates sales, I suggest you write to them and complain. By deleting information like you just did, you are placing your own personal opinion, and are failing to see that, while you may disagree, the information is verifiable and correct according to Oricon. Wikipedia is for posting verifiable facts. Not inputing personal opinion on whether or not we believe something to be true or false. I'm sorry you feel like the article is making false statements, but it is not. Unless you can find another official list (from RIAJ for example) of the highest selling artists in Japan, I'm afraid we have to stay with the current official list which was released by Oricon, of which places Mr.Children as the second highest selling act."

Thats speaks for itself, I shouldn't need to explain it. If you want to revert articles back to contain false and misleading information, especially after giving the above statement, then you will be given a friendly warning. Furthermore, according to Oricon, you may not use any information from their website without permission. This could explain why the Japanese Wikipedia appears not to have references to that website. If the English Wikipedia wants to take that chance, thats their problem. I was just pointing it out, especially since Japanese companies tend to protect their rights and take action. 220.253.144.187 (talk) 02:19, 17 December 2007 (UTC)

Um, no. If a site is publicly available on the internet, then it can be used as a reference if it is deemed reliable. What they are actually stating is that the page itself may not be copied without permission (which is standard for copyrighted text). That's the most common statement I've seen on a wide variety of Japanese and English sites out there. ···日本穣^{? · Talk to Nihonjoe} 05:23, 17 December 2007 (UTC)

Well in the context, Oricon states you may not use their ranking data. I only mentioned it, because a magazine once used their data (quoting Oricon, which is as good as referencing) and were sued. Anyway, this problem is solved too. Thanks 220.253.109.122 (talk) 08:56, 17 December 2007 (UTC)

That's just a standard copyright notice. --Saintjust (talk) 18:25, 17 December 2007 (UTC)

I was not trying to be rude, and if you feel that way I am sorry, but you're initial talk response did not seem like a "polite explanation", but more like accusing everyone of trying to purposely sabotage artist sales. I also don't consider threatening to report someone in addition to calling someone a vandal a "friendly warning". Not only that, but now you are implying me and everyone else is stupid in all your talk page responses. Do you not see a problem with the way you're handling this? I'm sorry that other person was rude to you, but I never called you any names, and I'm not being ignorant. All I'm asking is for you to try and be a little understanding and not call everyone liars and vandals. Also, this issue does have something to do with your complaint as it is connected to the larger issue at hand. Additionally both of you wrote in my talk page, so I wanted admins to know there was more to this story than what the initial complaint was about. - Hedatari (talk) 23:26, 17 December 2007 (UTC)

I don't think there is an issue here. If you want to poke at a dead horse so to speak, then point out where I'm implying "everyone else" is "stupid" and how my initial comment on the talk page is not polite, and how it is also "accusing everyone". It is short and to the point. A decision to be stalwart after your comment, and this summary "According to Oricon they are. If you have a problem with it, I suggest you write to Oricon and complain" it was clear what action needed to be taken. Furthermore, Oricon is not an official source of anything, its just a marketing company. 220.253.31.178 (talk) 17:06, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] edit warring at kwanzaa

Don't know where to bring this as he is a very powerful user here at wiki, User:jpgordon has been edit-warring at kwanzaa over the past couple of years and has escalated things in the past week or so. He's reverted multiple times in the past day or so with very dishonest edit summaries like "yawn, that's just vandalism"[12] when the edit was clearly NOT vandalism and calling contributions "rants". Just now he told me he'd block me if I edited the article. Seems like bad behavior from an arbitrator. Maybe another admin could speak to him about it.

Thanks Justforasecond (talk) 19:46, 17 December 2007 (UTC)

I have to agree that it's not vandalism, and appears to be a good faith attempt to add to the article. However, a point that is not mentioned is the fact that it's not sourced. You quote a Washington Post interview, but do you have a citation for it? Issue number, publication date, etc? I'm still reading through the article, but claims about living persons fall under WP:BLP, which may be what is triggering the revert.

Also, If you agreed at one point to stay away from the article, as jpgordon indicates that you did [13], perhaps it would be better to post your additions (with citations) to the talk page for discussion? If it's well-cited, someone else will certainly add the material. ZZ ^Claims ~ Evidence 19:55, 17 December 2007 (UTC)

The thing is, it is not being reverted as BLP, its being reverted as vandalism. It is easily verified in frontpage mag, which I think covers the BLP question, but other editors have also looked through washington post microfiche and verified it is there too. Anyway it seems like improper behavior to me, jpgordon knows wiki inside and out and is calling things vandalism which are not at all vandalism. He's reverted at least three separate editors in the past couple of days, which seems to be disregarding consensus. Gordon's policing for true vandalism, like the time an IP called kwanzaa "pagan" is appreciated, but calling good-faith edits vandalism is not. Justforasecond (talk) 21:04, 17 December 2007 (UTC)

Well, regardless, do you have the complete citation or not? That is the real concern. The other editors there indicate that they don't consider Frontpage reliable which doesn't look good when you repeat that argument here. Pharos just saying "I looked it up a while back" in the Washington Post doesn't exactly inspire confidence. The real policy concern is WP:V. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 07:50, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

the citation at [14], which seems to meet [WP:V], but if the policy is verifiability can speak to him about the distinction between verifiability and vandalism? also seems really incivil to use edit summaries like "yawn, that's just vandalism". Totally unconstructive. Justforasecond (talk) 18:25, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Phyllis Chesler

[edit] User:Sam coles 1234

This user seems to have tons of sockpuppets, so far today 4 of them, is there get the underlying IP for this user blocked? VivioFateFan ^{(Talk, Sandbox)} 10:18, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

See if this falls into an area under WP:CHECK - they are capable of checking this information, they only use it if it is, in fact, necessary. עוד מישהו Od Mishehu 10:26, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Requesting indefinite block on IP

12.107.72.2 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · block user · block log) is a shared IP address registered to a public high school. Although students might contribute positively to Wikipedia, most potential edits would turn out to be disruptive. Please block this user indefinitely. Doomed Rasher (talk) 13:54, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

The IP's current block is due to expire in October next year. Perhaps we could revisit the issue after that. -- zzuuzz ^(talk) 14:09, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] 72.39.110.204

User 72.39.110.204 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · block user · block log) continues to make reverts at Template:Canadian mobile phone companies. He hasn't broken 3RR, but he's gaming the system. GJ (talk) 14:52, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

As you are the only one reverting the edits, the same must apply to you. I noticed the talk page is still a red link. That is probably a good place to start a discussion on the difference between a major mobile phone network operator and a mobile virtual mobile phone network operator. Or you could try and start a discussion on the IP's talk page. -- zzuuzz ^(talk) 15:06, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

(edit conflict, but I'm saying the same thing) The issue seems to be with Fido solutions, who the IP wants in the "major network operators" and User:GreenJoe reverts to "regional network operators". I'd certainly agree that the IP's actions are not constructive, but equally (and bear in mind here that I know nothing about the Canadian telecoms industry) the term "major network operators" does seem somewhat open to interpretation. Is this an official classification, or should it be "national operators" or similar? Unless all ambiguity is removed from the classifications in the template, you're relying on users' points of view instead of on verifiability, and that only encourages the sort of behaviour we're seeing here. We can warn and/or block the IP, but it would be better to sort out the underlying issue. Waggers (talk) 15:08, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] User:Standshown

Can we block this user for longer time period because of edit wars ? He has been blocked for 1 day before (but he has taken 6 days break). After returning to wiki he has in only 2 days returned to old edit warring (because of which he has been blocked) in articles Puppet state, Serbia (1941-1944) and he has started 2 new edit wars in articles Internal Macedonian Revolutionary Organization and Ante Pavelić . In the end we are having threats to administrator which has given him 24 hours block [16] . In my thinking this SPA account need to be blocked for long time period. --Rjecina 15:09, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Talk:Capital punishment, Oboeboy (talk · contribs), 207.241.143.246 (talk · contribs)

Oboeboy (talk · contribs), 207.241.143.246 (talk · contribs) have several times between them added what amounts to an anti-death penalty petition to talk:Capital punishment (eg [17]). I've reverted Oboeboy twice on the grounds taht it has nothing to do with actually improving the article (per the talk header). Thehelpfulone (talk · contribs) reverted all additions by 207.241.143.246 (talk · contribs) as vandalism. I've left two mesages on Oboeboy's talkpage, but he added the petition again after the first.[18] Please could you keep an eye on this situation. I don't want to end up breaking WP:3RR myself. David Underdown (talk) 15:55, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

Although it's not mentioned at WP:VAND, WP:TPG is very clear: "Article talk pages should not be used by editors as platforms for their personal views." As far as I'm concerned, it's a form of vandalism and therefore you should be exempt from WP:3RR when you remove it. You seem to be doing everything right, but I'll add it to my watchlist too. Waggers (talk) 16:13, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

I've blocked for 24 hours and noted at User talk:Oboeboy. Bearian (talk) 16:31, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

I disagree with the block. This is a fairly new user, and he has not even broken 3RR. A warning and explanation should have been enough. Also, if you want to uphold the block, I strongly recommend to replace the completely generic template (attached under the wrong header) with a clear explanation why the user was blocked. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 17:28, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Vandalism and reverting at La Plata High School

Page was created with joke content (i.e. "La Plata High School was originally established by a group of Knights Templar as a convent") and being re-reverted back to the same by User:TheSilentJanks and User:Caviarsteel. I have reached 2RR and since it is not "obvious vandalism", I probably cannot revert farther (and continue to add vand noticed to the users.) Can someone please take a look? Thank you, --guyzero | talk 17:11, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

Uh, it is vandalism. One, the Knights Templar have not existed for the last 700 years and there is/was no chapter of the organization that remains in the spirit of the knights. I lived about 20 miles away across the Patuxent river and it most definitely is not anything other than a high school (There is however a carmelite mission nearby). Let me see if I can't add some real substance to the article.

It's not only obvious vandalism, it's self-admitted vandalism. See the end of this revision of the article. Tonywalton ^Talk 17:33, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

Thank you! --guyzero | talk 17:39, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] User:209.62.173.129

This IP has just been unblocked and is now vandalising Pan (mythology)opiumjones 23 (talk) 18:18, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

Re-blocked. Future episdoes of uncomplicated vandalism can be reported to WP:AIV - the response time is sometimes a bit faster over there. MastCell ^Talk 18:23, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Sock harassment

This sockmaster has moved from edit warring on pages (now protected) to pasting his edit into the talk page and demanding people place it in the article. Make them go away. Kluokli (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · block user · block log). See the vast list of socks on the user page. This sockmaster apparently made dozens of socks months ago specifically to avoid semi-pp. SchmuckyTheCat (talk)

Go to WP:ARBCOM right now. Go! --Gp75motorsports ^{REV LIMITER} 15:53, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

ArbCom is not the right suggestion to deal with sockpuppet issues, Gp75. I see there are tags, was an official WP:SSP case filed? There is a checkuser link, but it does not go to the correct case, it only goes to the main checkuser page. If a checkuser was done, it would be best to link the tag to the subpage. The editor is blocked, so it is just a matter of identifying any additional socks, tagging and blocking. ArbCom is not for dealing with sockpuppet vandals. Ariel♥Gold 15:58, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

The Arbitration Committee would probably laugh if someone filed a case for this... Daniel 04:55, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

ArbCom is used primarily as a last resort for disputes, and they make a decision that all parties must abide by. Sockpuppetry is handled differently; the accounts are all blocked, including the sockmaster. There are two places socking is handled: WP:SSP, where administrators compare editing patterns and attempt to establish a connection, and WP:RFCU, where checkusers check the IP of a suspected sockpuppet for tough cases. It checks every account that has logged into the IP, as well as every IP the account has logged into, in the last six months (I believe that's the amount of time). If the socking is persistent enough, the user is banned. Maser ^(Talk!) 06:35, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] User:Muntuwandi and the Origin of Religion

Main issue solved; no need to turn this into Yet Another Drama Magnet^TM. —Kurykh 05:03, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] User:Twsx

This user has for the last few months waged a constant edit war on at least two pages (Dissection (band) and Amon Amarth). He has been warned many times before about this. I reported him before but no action was taken as this was the first time he was reported. However, User:Scarian had a conversation with him telling everyone if they continued to edit war they would get reported and blocked. Well, Twsx refused to listen, obviously, because he's right back at edit warring. I ask for a block. As you can see from these history pages: 1 and 2, the user has waged a long running war and has an agenda that no one wants (users such as myself and other keep having to revert him). Thank you. Blizzard Beast ^$ODIN$ 18:11, 17 December 2007 (UTC)

Notified editor of this thread. Pastordavid (talk) 18:52, 17 December 2007 (UTC)

Thank you for the notification, Pastordavid. As I have had to respond to this very issue (with this very user) too many times before, I have created a small page listing my arguments on the matter. It can be found here. Thank you. ~ | twsx | ^talk_cont | 18:59, 17 December 2007 (UTC)

That page Twsx would have you look at is ridiculous and biased against me. It also brings up many old issues and edits that I have done in the past. For one it brings up that I have been blocked twice for edit warring on two different pages. I agreed to stop a long time ago and I would like to point out that Twsx is now doing the same thing I was blocked for and that is not acceptable. Blizzard Beast ^$ODIN$ 19:25, 17 December 2007 (UTC)

I have warned this user a couple of times about his(/her?) POV pushing and warring behavior, without any success. I have tried to stop the POV pushing through discussion on a larger scale here. As users couldn't agree with each other I proposed a truce (here). Since the truce has been in place all edit wars and POV pushing have stopped.. except for the ones Twsx was involved in, despite numerous comments on Twsx' talk page. Kameejl ^(Talk) 20:48, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

Some comments I've posted on Twsx' talk page. [20], [21], [22], [23] Kameejl ^(Talk) 21:11, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Attention needed

I have to go right now, but can someone please block the uploader of this image (don't worry, it's perfectly safe) and delete all his uploads? This is a serial copyright abuser I've dealt with before. Grandmasterka 23:05, 17 December 2007 (UTC)

What's the prior account? We probably shouldn't just zap someone no warnings without confirming the sock history... Thanks. Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 23:57, 17 December 2007 (UTC)

Never mind, I took care of it. See the userpage for details on previous accounts. Grandmasterka 23:38, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] User:Eleemosynary

I have only been here a few weeks, but unfortunately I have run across one of the rudest and worst behaved editors here. After noticing me on an article he was engaging in an edit war with several other editors, he followed me to two other articles to revert me. He has a fairly extensive history of being blocked, and is currently engaging in an edit war Scott Thomas Beauchamp controversy‎

Could someone please speak with him and ask him to behave. . DJ Creamity^{Oh Yeah!} 03:15, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

Newly created account User:DJ Creamity has exhibited far more knowledge and dexterity with Wikipedia user fonts, formatting, and policies than typical of most three-week-old accounts. That's because he's most likely a sock. He's been concentrating mostly on political pages, and has been blanking huge amounts of data on the Laura Ingraham page[24], without gaining consensus, and citing the catch-all "BLP VIOLATION!" ruse when no such policy violation exists. When asked to back up his claim of "BLP Violation," he refuses to supply a coherent answer.

And now he's falsely accusing me of Wikistalking, and engaging in an edit war. I'm doing neither. But I will be reverting his blanking vandalism, and I encourage all interested editors to watchlist the pages he edits. --Eleemosynary (talk) 04:29, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

Well, DJ, he's right about that. Why are you removing much amount of sourced information here and here? I'll also add that for this comment, I have half a mind to just mark this resolved and watch you more carefully. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 08:57, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

I'd agree with Ricky81682. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 10:19, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

Per the discussion at Talk:Laura_Ingraham#Removal_of_Controversy_Section, DJ's issue seems to be that the controversy section (even though there are plenty of 3rd party cites) should go because none of those third-party citations use the word "controversy"? I'll leave it to others, but I'd suggest WP:3O but I think it'd be a waste of time. I see that Will have changed the section heading per your view but you still chose to remove the section again. While it is probably not best, I'd like to see how you read WP:BLP. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 00:57, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Kevin.Kinchen

[edit] A considerate vandal

I must be seeing things - does this [25] mark the first time a vandal has been considerate enough to report themselves to administrator intervention against vandalism? Giles Bennett ^{(Talk, Contribs)} 13:35, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

Must not be getting enough attention. :) --Moonriddengirl ^(talk) 13:36, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

A friendly considerate vandal, it seems. They welcomed... themselves [26]. Tonywalton ^Talk 13:41, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

I had to do a double take when I saw that, but in the end I thought it maybe better to grant the request. ^Khukri 14:35, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

This has me at ... a loss for words. --Kralizec! (talk) 22:00, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Edit war on David Milband

Can we get some more eyes on David Miliband, there is some fair contentious edit warring going on (I myself perform a revert early on in the edit war)which might slip over into BLP territory, since Miliband is a very prominent member of her Maj's govt and that article is likely to be watched by various media sources, I think we'd all prefer not to find ourselves, once again, the subject of mockery in the UK press. --Fredrick day (talk) 14:40, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

I've protected the page, the edit war had been on going for a few days with no non-reverts in between so protection seemed like the best step. Ryan Postlethwaite 14:45, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

Herward77 is not only engaging alone in edit wars with at least 3 editors over this but he ois also insulting everyone with such classics as Sounds like the newly found power in your otherwise empty and pointless life is going to your head and calling those who disagree with him communists, anti-patriotic and any other insult he can come up with. IMO this editor is being seriously problematic and seems only interested in attacking Miliband, and his behaviour should be at least reviewed as without him ion the picture there would be no dispute and no issue. Thanks, SqueakBox 18:52, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

There appears to be a reasonable compromise position available here, which I have suggested at Talk:David Miliband#Outside_input. Herward77 does seem to be POV-pushing, and has reverted everyone else who has contributed, but I think that when faced with all the furious denunciations of Milliband by Herward77, Squeakbox has over-reacted a little bit by trying to remove all the content relating to relating to Milliband's granbdpa. Some of it seems quite uncontroversial. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 22:36, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Vandalism only IP

• 81.149.128.133 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · block user · block log) Vandalism only IP. Not current. -- John (Daytona2 · talk) 17:32, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

Blocked for 24 hours. For faster service, please report simple vandalism cases like this to WP:AIV. Thanks, --Kralizec! (talk) 21:35, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] User:Qworty

This user continues to violate WP:BLP issues relating to Mitt_Romney by inserting criticism related to the Mormon religion which is unrelated to Mitt Romney himself. In as much he is in violation of 3RR which apply to violations of BLP issues. In general he is trying to turn the Mitt Romney article into a WP:COAT which is being used to criticize the Mormon Religion. Arzel (talk) 18:00, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

Just look out, one more revert and you violate 3RR. It does seem to be a rather short, well-referenced statement, and I don't think it's turning the article into a COATrack. J-ſtan^Contribs_{User page} 18:09, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

Material in violation of BLP issues are not subjected to 3RR. It only takes one coat to be a coatrack. Arzel (talk) 18:11, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

Furthermore did you even read the reference? No, didn't think so. The reference does not make the assumption that Religion played a large issue for Romney in '68 like it does today. The reference is not even in direct relevance to the subject, it is one sentence "Cherry Picked" out of an unrelated article. Arzel (talk) 18:13, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

His contributions show that he hasn't edited much else for two days. He's been warned a number of times. I think a 24 hour block might be in order here, though an admin may want to talk to him before we have to go that far.--Phoenix-wiki ^{talk · contribs} 18:14, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

While i'm not sure that Mitt's father's experiences have much if any bearing on 40 years later, since editors at that article have opened the door, what QWORTY is adding looks well referenced and legit. ThuranX (talk) 18:17, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

Hi, Arzel, I must say, I don't appreciate the attitude. I'm just trying to help. First off, George Romney is dead. There's no BDP. I actually did read the source - going through it a second time. The article from the NY times says that much of the attention on George Romney was "concentrated on its [Church of LDS] policy at the time of excluding blacks from full participation." Qworty's edits are referenced, correct, and quite neutral for criticism. J-ſtan^Contribs_{User page} 19:13, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

Your quick response didn't make it clear that you really took the time to examine before responding. This really is not relevant to George Romney, and I am not making any BLP issues in that regard. However, and let me make this explicitly clear, Qworty has been trying to introduce into this article numerous times that the Mormon Church is either currently racist, or was racist at one time. This many very well be, but it is not relevant to Mitt Romney. This is where the violation of BLP falls. The article is about Mitt Romney, not his run for president. Not George Romney's run. Not about the Mormon Church, and whatever they did in the past. In essence this is what he is trying to say. "Mitt Romney is a Mormon. Mormon's were racist against blacks when his father, George Romney, ran for president." Now tell me that doesn't violate WP:BLP via WP:COAT. Arzel (talk) 20:24, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

I believe that there's a reasonable case to be made that the edits violate BLP on the Mitt Romney article, for reasons Arzel has articulated here. I have left a warning on Qworty's talk page asking that he pay more attention to BLP and NPOV on this topic.

Please do not take this as license to try and swing the article the other direction etc etc. Thanks. Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 20:34, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

I have no intention of doing so. I don't even particularly like Romney, but I think it is important that BLP articles be neutral and focused on the individual. Arzel (talk) 01:21, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

As the article says"Religion has played a major role in the 2008 presidential campaign". The religious background of his family is relevant to the campaign, discussed widely in articles dealing with him, and relevant to the article. This may be another disgraceful example of presidential campaign politics, but its relevant nonetheless. I don't seethe point of pretending otherwise. DGG (talk) 22:53, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

There may be some relevance to his campaign for president, but this is not an article on his run for president. There is already an article for that. Arzel (talk) 01:21, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Revision deletion requested

Could someone please delete the last six or so revisions of Talk:Alberto Gonzales, please? I've requested oversight, but it hasn't been done yet, and there's some alleged personal information there about the subject and subject's family that really should be removed from the history. Thanks. Tony Fox (arf!) 01:28, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

Done - it should be restored soon. Ryan Postlethwaite 01:31, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Persistant abuse by ip

This IP (clearly a sock of banned user TyrusThomas4lyf) is currently abusing many NBA articles here and here and now even messing with my talk page here after I tried to revert him. I feel that I cannot deal with it alone anymore. And need admin attention now. Chris! _ct 01:46, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

Now blocked. Acroterion _(talk) 01:48, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] User:Lyoshka

I just noticed that Lyoshka (talk · contribs) is just putting down links to one website as functionally all of their contributions, as seen here. Is this spam? I'm not totally sure, as the site seems fairly useful, but seeing one user just embed a site on many, many articles caught my eye. The links are all to URLs like www.legistorm.com/member/Rep_Charles_Wilson/867.html for government staff pay information. Lawrence Cohen 17:27, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

Though the site is a ".com", I don't see any ads. The material is objective and well-presented. WP now has about 658 links to the site.[27] There are 540 members of Congress, so I assume they've all got the link. I'm not thrilled when an editor makes adding external links their sole job, but in this case I can't find anything to object to. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 18:29, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

I couldn't find a problem either, but it was the spam radar of seeing one person doing just that which led me to ask just in case. An interesting site, at any rate. Lawrence Cohen 18:32, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

At first blush I thought this looked like a WP:LINKSPAM issue, however after looking a little closer, I do not see anything objectionable per se. Certainly the volume of links added is a bit surprising. --Kralizec! (talk) 21:29, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

• I agree 100% that there is absolutely nothing objectionable about the content of the www.legistorm.com website. I was fascinated to see how my congressman was spending his staffing budget, and this would be relevant information for all 534 other congressman. There seems to be justification neither for a spam warning nor to revert these changes. Alansohn (talk) 00:03, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

505 links from an WP:SPA account with no other edits other than legistorm.com, is a violation of both WP:SPAM and WP:NOT. It has become apparent that this account is only being used for spamming external links and for self-promotion. Wikipedia is NOT a "repository of links" or a "vehicle for advertising". --Hu12 (talk) 00:08, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

Um... I know where your intent is from, but... - Penwhale | ^{Blast him / Follow his steps} 00:11, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

legistorm.com is owned by and registered to Storming Media LLC. So we could add WP:COI to list also. Its fairly clear this is promotional spamming

Accounts
Lyoshka (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · block user · block log)
74.93.192.118 (talk • contribs • deleted contribs • WHOIS • RDNS • trace • RBLs • http • block user • block log) →Storming Media LLC STORMING-MEDIA-LLC
--Hu12 (talk) 00:43, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

Here's a few more from Storming Media;
Dceditor (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · block user · block log)
M.K.Cummings (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · block user · block log)
Wattpower (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · block user · block log)
The last three are spam only WP:SPA accounts, with a pattern of starting articles based on the link.--Hu12 (talk) 01:33, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

• So, let me see if I understand your reasoning here. If I, as a user that is not an "SPA" were to have added these 505 links (all to neutral, objective, and informative information), it would have been fine. But because a new user who does only this does it, it's spam? That doesn't make any sense at all. And it makes less sense, if it's also spam if I did it, as there is absolutely nothing wrong with any information at those links. Mr Which??? 01:48, 19 December 2007 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by MrWhich (talk • contribs)

• What else do you call it when a group of people edit the encyclopaedia from an IP address associated with a company, adding pretty much nothing other than links to their company's website? I don't think it's especially controversial to describe that as spamming. Guy (Help!) 18:14, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] User:Jeeny

Jeeny has used sockpuppets to commit abusive attacks on Jimbo Wales, repeatedly 'retired' then returned, showing a great lack of respect for the wikipedia community. In fact, she is currently editing with her retirement templates still in place. She has also attempted to remove licensing information from images she has uploaded, showing ownership of articles.

Her block log [28] shows that repeated blocks, and even mentorship, have failed to curb her disruptiveness and abusiveness.

Her sockpuppet, which she has admitted to, is user:Humain-comme. Contribs [29]. See these two edits for evidence of both puppetry and abuse [30] and [31].

Jeeny is continuing to create a very hostile environment on Wikipedia. I am suprised an indefinite block was not imposed long ago, especially after the sockpuppetry. --The White Stallion (talk) 00:08, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

Without commenting on the merit of the proposal, it seems odd that a sockpuppet is making a report on ANI about this. I think White Stallion is in all probability the user who has been harassing Jeeny for the last several months. Jeffpw (talk) 00:27, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

• I'm stunned this one was not blocked, and have blocked the account. This is one of the most insane users I have ever met, and I use the term in the most careful sense. The OTRS tickets form this user are nothing short of surreal, and the email addresses have been blacklisted from unblock-en-l, otrs-en and probably other places. Far, far, far too crazy to be let loose on Wikipedia. 'm about to blacklist the known email addresses in my server, based on what happened to the last admin who blocked this account. Guy (Help!) 00:25, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

NPA says ". It is as unacceptable to attack a user with a history of foolish or boorish behavior, or even one who has been subject to disciplinary action by the Arbitration Committee, as it is to attack any other user.". As an admin, you should no better. - Rjd0060 (talk) 00:28, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

Wait a moment, Guy, can you please clarify, were you talking about Jeeny or about the Hayden sock? Fut.Perf. ☼ 06:35, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

• Is there actually any solid proof, such as CU, that Humain-comme is Jeeny, by the way? It could be like the thousands that "claim" to be RickK. Also, as Jeff correctly points out, Stallion seems very experienced for a new user and is most definitely a sock. Will ^(talk) 00:31, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

  By the way, this isn't defence of Jeeny; I'm just suspicious about the complainant. Will ^(talk) 00:32, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

The sockpuppet said it was Jeeny when it placed the tags, and Jeeny didn't seem to protest. --EoL talk 00:37, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

That doesn't prove anything. Even usertalk vandalism can be buried by further edits. However, Jeff's comment that H-c=Jeeny does. Will ^(talk) 00:43, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

It is Jeeny. She has emailed more than one person saying it was. Now, should the sock who placed this report be blocked also? - Rjd0060 (talk) 00:38, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

The complainant is Jeeny, too? I've blocked it, anyway.—Ryūlóng (竜龍) 01:01, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

No. The complaintant is probably the banned User:Hayden5650, who has had probably near 100 sockpuppets, and continues to harass Jeeny. -Rjd0060 (talk) 01:39, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

• As he's started to make legal threats, I've protected his talk for 24 hours to let him calm down. Revert me if consensus goes the other way regarding his block. Ryan Postlethwaite 01:16, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

Without commenting on Jeeny's behavior, can I ask something: has Jeeny invoked RTV and start all over in order to get away from Hayden5650? —Kurykh 02:37, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

Can I comment? I was just wondering about the OTRS comment...WP:OTRS states "The contents of e-mails handled by OTRS members are confidential." Consequently, it doesn't seem proper to user OTRS communications to characterize the user or these communications as surreal and insane. TableManners ^U·T·C 05:44, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

Fair enough, I struck some of my more belligerent comments above as being unhelpful. The fact remains, this is an unstable and aggressive user. You're right, one of the links I supposed is unproven, but there have been email complaints about this user's conduct (including complaints to me direct via email) and numerous complaints within Wikipedia. I do not think this use is here to collaborate in building an encyclopaedia. Guy (Help!) 07:34, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

Even disregarding OTRS this is more than enough reason to uphold the indef block. EconomicsGuy (talk) 08:13, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

I agree with the block. TableManners ^U·T·C 16:46, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] I wonder

The block log states that Jeeny has exhausted the community patience. Should this be considered a community ban? Maser ^(Talk!) 06:24, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

If someone unblocks Jeeny, then he isn't banned after the unblock, defining a ban loosely.—Ryūlóng (竜龍) 06:59, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

Well, yes, but is there any admin willing to unblock? If not, then this user is banned. A community ban occurs when a user is blocked, and no administrator is willing to unblock the user. The reason I'm asking is because JzG said that the user exhausted the communities' patience in the block log. Is there any consensus built for this? Maser ^(Talk!) 08:28, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

If Jeeny's name is placed on Wikipedia:List of banned users as a result of this discussion, and no administrator is willing to remove her name from the list, then she is banned. (Note: being unfamiliar with the case, I am not commenting on the merits of the block or proposed ban.) - Jehochman ^Talk 08:35, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

My sentiments exactly. But is this block widely endorsed? Personally, I think this user has had numerous chances. What do others think? Maser ^(Talk!) 08:37, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

Abusing socks (rather badly), abusing her mentor's trust when that mentorship was the condition for her previous escape from an indef block and making legal threats because she wants to revoke the release into the public domain of her uploaded images ought to be enough for a ban in my opinion. EconomicsGuy (talk) 08:44, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Menudo (band) again, and legal threats

I just blocked 66.229.248.172 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · block user · block log) for this rather unambiguous legal threat. Fighting over this article, from tabloidesque, libelous insertions to conflict-of-interest-violating external links, has gone on for a while. I invite review of the block, review of the general situation, and also another few pairs of eyes on what goes on there. Thanks all, Antandrus (talk) 06:09, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

Clear, unambiguous legal threat. Sound block. Looks fine to me. — Ocatecir^T 06:16, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

I extended the block to six months and contacted Jimbo as the situation is more complicated than what it appears, for once he directly ignored Jimbo's desicion in this case wich was that none of the users involved in the COI influenced edit war was to edit the article within a month. - Caribbean~H.Q. 06:53, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

You probably should email the Foundation's legal counsel also. Cla68 (talk) 06:57, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

It is neither our policy nor custom to forward on-wiki legal threats to counsel. The great majority of such threats are done for the purpose of intimidation and disruption. The appropriate response is to block the user until they retract the threat. (Note: I have not looked into the facts of this particular case, and am commenting on process only.) - Jehochman ^Talk 09:40, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

• I thought that suits were supposed to be filed in a court of law in Trenton, New Jersey? This guy is going for Florida, that will never work. Guy (Help!) 17:23, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

LOL. I wonder what ever happened to that chap. Ah, the good old days.  :) Antandrus (talk) 17:40, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] 69.138.16.202‎ (talk · contribs)

Appears to be wikistalking me, with several violations of policy and wikilawyering on both disputed pages Gamespot and Al-Qaeda, specifically, NPOV. See also User talk:Crum375#Relating to WP:AN#Militants or terrorists?... Will ^(talk) 13:08, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

The IP seems to have taken issue with User:Sceptre as well, if the re-posted (an entire) conversation at Talk:Al-Qaeda (per this diff). ZZ ^Claims ~ Evidence 13:16, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

Um, Will and Sceptre are one and the same, Ultraexactzz. Neıl ☎ 13:19, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

How obvious is it that I haven't had my coffee yet this morning? ZZ ^Claims ~ Evidence 13:28, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

I just thought it was funny given your user name ;) Will, do you have any specific diffs? I can't see anything suggestive of wikistalking at first glance, which is a serious accusation - all I see is yourself and the IP having a Big Argument across lots of pages with wikilawyering coming from both sides, and now he and you are both trying to get the other blocked. Neıl ☎ 13:36, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

He was trying to disrupt the Gamespot page by lawyering to include an edit that had got the whole set of articles protected. Suspiciously, he is now trying to lawyer for a term on a page I edited, after I edited it. If that isn't following my edits to continue disruption, I don't know what is. Will ^(talk) 14:24, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

A Wikiquette alert has been filed by the IP here. ZZ ^Claims ~ Evidence 13:33, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Strange user, requesting review

I'm strongly considering just blocking and forgetting this user. But I would like others to see if there is something here that indicates a positive contribution to the encyclopedia.

Ced101 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · block user · block log)

I noticed because he copied User:Shell Kinney's userpage to this User:202.14.85.246 IP editor user page. Since then I've seen him copy two other user's talk pages to his (User talk:Jc37 and User talk:Sheep81). Yesterday Tonywalton deleted a number of hoax pages he had created. I can't find an edit that I'm sure is good (but I'm not sure those to Dumaguete Science High School were bad, so I haven't reverted them yet. The user appears to also be editing from 222.127.228.6 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · block user · block log) today and 202.14.85.246 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · block user · block log) yesterday. GRBerry 17:36, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

Would it be also worthwhile considering User:Sphynx rdc as well? It seems 202.14.85.246 likes to edit his userpage. Rt. 17:49, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

I've seen this user vandalize multiple established user's pages, that they vandalized that one once doesn't seem particularly noteworthy to me. GRBerry 18:02, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

I was implying he may be a sock. Rt. 18:09, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

Updating, I've blocked today's IP address for 1 week for vandalism. I've also semi-protected Ced101's talk page for vandalism by the IP address; I don't see any reason right now that an IP or new editor needs to be commenting there. But semi-protection will allow Ced101 to use it should he log back in. GRBerry 18:02, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Possible spam by Timjowers

[edit] Is this a legal threat?

LessHeard vanU (talk) 21:42, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

User:Marcellogarcia made this edit recently. Is this acceptable? GlobeGores (talk | contributions) 21:13, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

The article has now been deleted under BLP concerns, and any possible legal threat has been removed with it. Unless the editor repeats the comments (which I haven't looked at) at another venue then we should all just move on. LessHeard vanU (talk) 21:42, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

Actually, reviewing their complete contributions including deleted, it's hard not to conclude that it's a single purpose vandalism-only account. I indef blocked Marcellogarcia. Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 21:48, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

Marcello is asking for an unblock review and may have clued in. Uninvolved admin review requested. Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 01:15, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

Their unblock request states, "I agree to add content to a page only in accordance with Wikipedia's rules. I understand that my substantive difference regarding the William P. DiSalvatore page was not an excuse to get into a needless war over the site and that wikipedia provides ways to deal with disagreements. This is my first time using wikipedia and I have learned something about how it works from this disagreement. Please take this into consideration."

This new user seems pretty reasonable at this point, and I would support an unblock. — Satori Son 01:34, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

As the user who brought up this request, I hope I'm allowed to voice a comment here: althought I'm not an administrator, I would support an unblock of Marcellogarcia now that he/she seems to know the rules and promises to abide by them. Feel free to strike, remove, or otherwise indicate that this comment is invalid if it is invalid. GlobeGores (talk | contribs) 07:46, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

There are no restrictions on who can comment on things here, although it might be best to avoid putting things in bold like that, people might think you've mistaken this for a vote. --Tango (talk) 20:51, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

I see Nat is handling this and has given them an easy and reasonable option for getting unblocked. Looks resolved to me. — Satori Son 20:57, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] A second set of eyes

Hey guys, I am having a very minor disagreement at Talk:Charles Peirce about content that has been merged as a result of an AfD. Nothing untoward has occurred, but I would like a second set of eyes on it to make sure that I am not way off base here. Also, I am curious about an editor who gets into a debate about our compliance with the GFDL within 6 minutes of his/her first edit. Thanks Pastordavid (talk) 21:13, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

Did you merge the full content of Prescisive abstraction into Charles Peirce? Ioeth _{(talk contribs friendly)} 21:46, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

Yes, I placed it (it was a short stub) onto the talk page of the article, for the editors who know more about the subject to merge into the article as appropriate. The original article (Prescisive abstraction‎) was not deleted, but redirected. Pastordavid (talk) 21:49, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

There's a help guideline that governs what you need to do in this case. You can find it at Wikipedia:MERGE#Full-content_paste_merger. So, in short, cut-and-paste mergers can be GFDL compliant, as long as you follow that guideline. Ioeth _{(talk contribs friendly)} 21:52, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

I think this new account might be an old friend whose name rhymes with Jon Awbrey. east.718 at 23:24, December 18, 2007

• Cloff! Guy (Help!) 23:49, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for the help, I thought something might be off about the account, but AGF and all that. Pastordavid (talk) 12:11, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

• Alert: Have just reverted this [33]. Looks like someone is back again, as this is his first (major) edit. --Rodhullandemu (please reply here - contribs) 16:25, 19 December 2007 (UTC)
• User:Kato9Tales has just appeared and reversed my reversion herer [34]. It is clear this is the same user as before. --Rodhullandemu (please reply here - contribs) 17:41, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

Both now blocked. --Rodhullandemu (Talk) 18:44, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] User:Matthew M. Stein deleting sourced content with POV edit summary at 9/11 conspiracy theories

If an admin could take a look, I would appreciate it. This bit of POV-pushing was his first edit in 9 1/2 months. He followed shortly with a reversion to re-delete the sourced material after I restored it. I dropped a note on his page letting him know this was disruptive, and potentially blockable. Mr Which??? 05:41, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

• He is now attemtping to add original reseach and POV wording to the article here. He's made it clear in his edit summaries that he is not editing in good faith. The sooner he is blocked the better. Mr Which??? 06:21, 19 December 2007 (UTC)
• Still at it. Would an admin please take care of this? Mr Which??? 06:45, 19 December 2007 (UTC)
• This belongs on WP:AN/3RR since both sides are now edit warring - including 6 reverts by the user being reported here. Report it there instead. EconomicsGuy (talk) 07:25, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

• With all due respect, why? 3RR takes all day, and gives the user all day to keep edit warring, and, quite often, the user will meanwhile get his version protected and not even get blocked (seen it happen a million times) - not to mention this is a single-purpose account, quite possibly a sock. Why the process-wonkery? Just block him. The Evil Spartan (talk) 07:30, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

• With all due respect because a) both sides are warring rather than asking for protection b) if everyone came to ANI with these things they would fill up the entire page and c) because this is a content dispute. AN/3RR is for people fighting over content issues - ANI is not. The rest of your message is irrelevant to what I was responding to. EconomicsGuy (talk) 07:39, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

• With all due respect, both sides are not "edit warring." One side is protecting the status quo version of the page, while the other is attempting to unilaterally insert POV into the article. We little editors don't have the "protect" button, EG. Our only method of "protecting" an article from such POV-pushing is to remove his changes, and to ask for help here, which I did. Mr Which??? 13:14, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

MrWhich, it's 5:15AM over here. Nobody's awake except for the Australian Cabal™. EconomicsGuy, AN3 isn't a place for content disputes either; they get ignored here but laughed out of there. And lastly, I've protected the article for a while. east.718 at 10:17, December 19, 2007

• How does Stein get away with pushing his POV crap into the article, and I get subtly warned about 3RR by EconomicsGuy? This is the kind of junk that discourages normal editors from reporting problem users here for admin intervention. This seemed like a pretty straightforward block of a SPA/POV-pushing user to me. Never mind, I guess. Mr Which??? 12:20, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

I will review the contributions. Please be patient. Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 20:56, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

Stein clearly edit warred and was not seeking NPOV or discussing on talk pages. 31 hour block and long explanation on his talk page. Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 21:23, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Article becoming image gallery

User:Nikkul insists on putting an image in Poverty in India article taken by him with a caption Low income homes in rural. In doing so

• The article is becoming an image gallery
• The image is cleary irrelevant there.

Despite my repeated deletions, he is adding the image again and again. Someone please investigete the matter. Otolemur crassicaudatus (talk) 17:53, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

User:Nikkul also put this image in Poverty article. The image is also irrelevant there. He is specifically insisting of putting this image photographed by himself. Otolemur crassicaudatus (talk) 18:05, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

As long as the image is properly licenced, and not obviously vandalism, then the matter of its inclusion in a particular article is a content dispute. As such WP:DR, rather than WP:ANI, is the correct venue at which you raise your concerns. In particular, with the exception of over-use of fair-use material, articles becoming image galleries (or not) isn't specifically an admin matter. -- Finlay McWalter | Talk 18:08, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

Agreed - doesn't seem to be a problem, as the image is properly licenced, and image seems appropriate to article. Orderinchaos 19:30, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

The image may be licensed, but the problem is that the image is not appropriate there. This image is very misleading to the subject of the article. The homes shown in the image doesn,t illustrate the subject of the article. The homes may belong to those who are not affluent, this is not explicitly illustrative of poverty in India. Poverty in India is much more dire than this image. The article has three images which exactly illustrate poverty. This image is completely irrelevant and is being input with POV to disparge the subject of the article. Otolemur crassicaudatus (talk) 19:40, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

However, this is not the place to discuss it. I cannot find any sign of you trying to discuss with User:Nikkul regarding those images, one of the first steps in dispute resolution. This "case" is a content dispute which needs to be solved by dispute resolution, and this page is not part of it. x42bn6 Talk Mess 19:47, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Guy thread

[edit] Request review of User:JzG's block of User:Timjowers

[edit] User:Weasel123

User has been blocked by Icairns (talk · contribs) for 31 hours. GlobeGores (talk | contribs) 22:12, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

This user is continuously creating user-talk pages with a message stating they have been blocked indefinitely by User:Chrislk02. He has blanked his user page several times. Could all the fake messages he created please be deleted? He has vandalized my userpage too. Thanks, GlobeGores (talk | contribs) 22:00, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

Report him to WP:AIV as well if it hasn't already been done. He also got my page as well, and I was a bit confused to put it mildly. Wildthing61476 (talk) 22:02, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

He's been blocked for 31 hours by Icairns (talk · contribs), and it appears his contribs have been reverted already. Tony Fox (arf!) 22:06, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

I also note his second-ever edit was to install Twinkle. Can he be trusted with it? --Rodhullandemu (Talk) 22:14, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

Why is there no minimum edit limit on TW like there is for AWB?. Surely since they are as far as i know used for the same things, similar enforcements should be in place.--Jac16888 (talk) 22:32, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

I think you mean VandalProof, Jac1688. AutoWikiBrowser is, as far as I know, used primarily for cleanup and/or markup fixes in the mainspace. VandalProof has a editcount limit of 250 (non-vandal, mainspace) edits. GlobeGores (talk | contribs) 22:50, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

AWB has an edit limit too, you need 500 mainspace, and be approved by an admin, see WP:AWB.--Jac16888 (talk) 23:03, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

I concur with Rodhullandemu. Another user, User:Le Funtime Frankie, who has been indefblocked as a sockpuppet of Daddy Kindsoul, had installed TW and was using it to the last 20 or so edits admin Yamla had made (using 'vandalism rollback'). In fact, as far as I know, he still has the Twinkle script in his monobook.js. However, Weasel123 never actually did use TW when he edited. GlobeGores (talk | contribs) 22:47, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

There's ongoing discussion about TWINKLE use over on WP:AN right now; maybe the policy stuff should be directed over that way? Tony Fox (arf!) 22:56, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

• Have pointed out this thread over there; I'm thinking that perhaps this discussion would be better on its own page because it clearly has deeper significance than just one or two users. --Rodhullandemu (Talk) 23:13, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] User:Rock Soldier

User has been repeatedly rude, impolite and uncivil on numerous occasions. Recent examples (Some are in the edit summary): [35], [36] and the restoration of a personal attack after I removed it [37]. I didn't want to argue so I just took it straight here. He makes good edits but he is prone to losing his temper and allowing profanity to enter during his dialogue with other editors. What to do? (I've warned him a couple of times using templates) Scarian^Talk 22:28, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Todd Marshall

This AfD is so old, it is getting moldy. To merge this may take several mops. Bearian (talk) 00:42, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

This AfD isn't even an AfD anymore; it's a merge discussion. —Kurykh 00:45, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

Would probably be best to just redirect all the articles to the list for the time being. BLACKKITE 01:10, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Report of Repeat Offender- Deleting Portions of Article

User ElkenaJ4 is a repeat offender of deleting portions of Venetian_Princess article on a daily basis to start edit warring. I have already posted a warning to this user in talk, and he/she ignored it and continued to vandalize the article. To prevent this user from further abusing of wikipedia articles, I would like to request that this user be blocked.

"Journalist23 (talk) 03:01, 20 December 2007 (UTC)"

Keeps simply deleting the text after a few days. Denied at WP:AIV, but I decided to leave a message on the talk page asking why; let's wait and see. Basic content dispute otherwise. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 03:29, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] External links added by Filtv (talk · contribs)

Filtv (talk · contribs) has added links to a Freefoto site in four articles today - for example, please see this edit to Aerial photography. I don't know whether the external links are kosher or not, so I'd like someone to review them and advise the user if there is a problem. Shalom (Hello • Peace) 03:02, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

Must be his own personal site. I've dropped a warning for him. We don't need his link on every article that meets a certain criterion. Cheers--Hu12 (talk) 03:08, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

According to the Freefoto website, these are free photos — all released under CC-3.0 ({{cc-by-sa-3.0}}).[38] — ERcheck (talk) 03:55, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

Oops. Missed on item, it is cc-by-sa-nc-3.0. So the "non-commercial" makes it non-viable, so to speak, for Wikipedia. Well, I certainly can see how the contributor could, in good faith, be making this addition of images and the link. I don't think there was any real spam intent. The editor just needs guidance in the details of licensing of images for Wikipedia. — ERcheck (talk) 05:18, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] User: Knataka

This user has persistently spammed and vandalized articles in Wikipedia. This user has also received warnings regarding these (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Knataka&oldid=178845574), as well as a warning by an administrator for edit warring (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk%3AKnataka&diff=178887030&oldid=178845574). In addition to this, this user may need to be monitored, as there is a strong possibility of sharing of accounts or sock-puppetry as suggested by the administrator here - http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Hu12&diff=prev&oldid=179128524. There is no doubt that one of this user's sockpuppets/accounts/IPs include 76.212.8.87, and it is very possible that there are others as the user continually suggests on the user's talk page. I request the user (and sockpuppets etc.) be blocked to prevent any further disruptive edits. I also request that this user be monitored thereafter so to ensure there is no other suspicious activity thereafter. Ncmvocalist (talk) 05:55, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] User:Larry Lurkington and User:Betacommand

• Original thread re-located to Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents/Larry Lurkington. Further comment is welcome at that page.

Subsequent confusion over the relocation archived below.

[edit] Un-semiprotecting

Royalguard11 (talk · contribs) has started systematically unprotecting semiprotected pages without attempts of obtaining consensus about his actions. This includes pages such as obesity, cancer, Judaism, Muslim, Jesus and other predictable targets of vandalism. When I asked whether he'd considered the risk of vandalism, I received the reply that "eight and a half months is excessive. Period." This user has now stopped communicating with me.

I am deeply concerned that important and vandalism-prone content is being exposed to vandalism. JFW | T@lk 00:23, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

As I've told you already, I'm dealing with the 8.5 month backlog at Special:Protectedpages, mostly because no other admin has taken the initiative to do it. Your also twisting what's happened, because I haven't stopped communicating with you. Your using as many methods you can to make sure that everyone has a bad first impression and therefore side with you. Anyways, yes I consider that 8.5 months is excessive for semiprotection. Every article is unprotected at some time, even Bush gets unprotected once and a while. Why not others? There isn't a policy that says that cancer can be indefinitely semiprotected just because someone says. -Royalguard11(T·R!) 00:32, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

By the way, unless you haven't checked, this is a wiki. Everything is vandal-prone. -Royalguard11(T·R!) 00:33, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

Protection is never meant to be indefinite solution. Take a look at this discussion on meta: m:Protected_pages_considered_harmful ---J.S (T/C/WRE) 00:37, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

The meta page does not allow for semiprotection, which is the crux of this dispute. JFW | T@lk 00:43, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

We are clearly disagreeing on an interpretation of policy, so I would like to ask you to stop until this has been clarified. Is that possible? JFW | T@lk 00:38, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

I don't mean to be blunt, but I think this is more of a case that you are misunderstanding policy and precedence. ---J.S (T/C/WRE) 00:41, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

Precedence" actually dictates that indefinite semi-protection be used for articles subjected to continued heavy vandalism, biographies subject to POV-pushing or slanderous material, user pages when requested, and policy pages on a case-by-case basis. I'm disappointed that this administrator didn't seek input before going on a large unprotection spree. east.718 at 00:47, December 18, 2007

Could you explain what I'm misunderstanding here? Or rather, how do I know that it's not Royalguard11 doing the misunderstanding? And where is the precedent you are referring to? JFW | T@lk 00:43, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

• I'd agree with most of these unprotections, but a few should probably never be unprotected - I've just re-protected Gay after it was hit twice within minutes of the protection being lifted; this one probably isn't worth the effort. I've watchlisted a lot of others, and will keep an eye out. BLACKKITE 00:45, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

On what grounds, and for how long, would you reinstate semiprotection? Obviously, the majority of the pages unprotected by Royalguard11 will suffer vandalism within the next hour or so. Where are we meant to draw the line, and should these pages have been unprotected to begin with? By semiprotecting we are not exactly closing down editing - we are only delaying for autoconfirmed registered users. JFW | T@lk 00:49, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

• I feel I must chime in here, that mass unprotection is a Bad Idea(tm). Those articles are vandal magnets and consensus has long been reached that indefinite semiprotection was reasonable for those. Quoth the WP:PROT "Indefinite semi-protection may be used for: Articles subject to heavy and continued vandalism, such as the George W. Bush article." — Coren ^(talk) 00:59, 18 December 2007 (UTC)
  • I am glad that semiprot seems be putting back in place on a case-by-case basis, rather than as a blind mass revert. I haven't checked a list, just yet, but from the chatter it seems like a fair number of these were overdue for unprotection. Possibly not the best method, but I think it was done in good faith, and it's brought attention to the issue. Sooo... on to the issue. If any of these become controversial, we can (and should) discuss them in particular. – Luna Santin (talk) 01:03, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

I'm sure Royalguard11 acted in good faith, but the unprotection of some of these articles shows a lapse in judgment in my honest opinion. In any case I agree with Luna, lets take it case by case for now. KnowledgeOfSelf | talk 01:08, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

I have no doubt this was a good faith move, especially given the foundation issue. But it's also a ill-conceived moved— I would support reexamining all of those semis, but just doing the blanket unprotect was a bit... too bold. — Coren ^(talk) 01:11, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

• Batch unprotection is not uncommon. There are several admins who routinely go through Special:Protectedpages to let in a breath of fresh air to those that are locked for too long without expiry. There are some pages that remain protected for years because no one has remembered, or bothered, to get them unprotected. There are some pages which are obvious candidates for permanent semi-protection, and I hope the unprotecting admin applies some common sense, but if any are unprotected and subjected to extreme vandalism then they can always be reprotected. No big deal. -- zzuuzz ^(talk) 01:10, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

I don't really like batch unprotection... but at the same time, I don't like when admins semi-protect an article and never follow up. Your goal should be finding the right balance of semi-protection and non-protection. Going around and unprotecting articles like Gay and walking away is irresponsible, but so is semi-protecting some obscure article due to a few instances of vandalism, then leaving it semi-protected for 8.5 months. Everyone needs to be more vigilent here... if admins wouldn't make perpetual semi-protections where they really aren't needed, there wouldn't be admins running around doing batch unprotections and walking away. Unprotecting articles like Gay and so on shouldn't be done en masse... anyone wanting to do that should be familiar with the article and its editting patterns and willing to stick around and revert vandalism, and judge when or if semi-protection is needed again. Assuming someone else will do the dirty work is disrespectful of people who deal with unprotected pages, rather than just dash around making them unprotected. --W.marsh 01:27, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

I'm just following what's been done before here. Before I did it, VOA did a ton of unprotection runs, again because no one else did. A lot of the ones I unprotected had "vandalism" as the reason, and was protected for 8 months. Maybe I'm missing something, but vandalism that happened 8 months ago doesn't matter anymore. If I don't do large unprotection runs, the backlog will just get bigger and bigger as time goes on (as it has for the last 8 months). Sometimes these articles are protected almost indefinitely because no one goes through them ever, and no one bothers to ask for it to be unprotected. That's obviously not what Jimbo nor the WMF have in mind for the "Encyclopedia that anyone can edit", because we have way too many uselessly protected pages right now. -Royalguard11(T·R!) 01:41, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

I would encourage you to try to figure out which ones were bad semi-protections, just in response to relatively minor vandalism, and which ones were on articles with severe vandalism problems. Unfortunately, community consensus is that some articles, like George W. Bush, really have to be perpetually semi-protected... advocates of non-protection have unprotected that article then quickly reprotected it in frustration. You unprotected too many pages, as far as I can tell, for you to be following up on them all to see if vandalism got out of control on any of them. --W.marsh 01:44, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

Then how are all these articles going to be unprotected? Shall I request the unprotection of a thousand articles at WP:RFPP? -Royalguard11(T·R!) 01:48, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

You should indicate you aren't just throwing the article to the wolves, but will be watching it and helping out. Vandalism isn't just magically dealt with... the people who deal with it appreciate a little respect. --W.marsh 01:52, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

By the way, even after the "excessive" amount I unprotected, the backlog still stands at late April. If I unprotected the first 1000 articles, that only puts us at Oct. 10. There's still 2 months after that. Do you have any better ideas on how to deal with that? -Royalguard11(T·R!) 01:57, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

Like I said, everyone needs to be more vigilant... that includes admins who don't set expiration dates (not sure if that feature was around in April though) on semi-protections, and otherwise don't follow up with their semiprotections. If they didn't do that, it's my belief there wouldn't be such backlogs in the first place. But one irresponsible action doesn't justify another... even if it is a big backlog. I could go close every open AFD in a few hours, and justify the dozens of bad closes by saying "How else could we have dealt with the backlog?" --W.marsh 02:08, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

Oh, I must have missed the memo. When did AFD become 8 months behind? The difference is, of corse, AFD is always cleared within a week because it's watched. And while looking through the logs for pages, some had been thorough an expired protection, then reprotected without one. There were several admins who just repeatedly didn't set an expiry date. There are some who don't put an expiry date now for no good reason. -Royalguard11(T·R!) 02:16, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

Have you talked to any of these admins? --W.marsh 02:18, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

Two things would help here - first, talk to these admins, as W.marsh says. Second, in the spirit of poka-yoke, is there any way of changing the protection page so it puts an expiry period of 1 month in the field as default, forcing someone to actively select indefinite protection? Neıl ☎ 09:36, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

That second is actually a really good idea. Don't know why it never occurred to me that "Indefinite" should not be the default option for article protection any more than it should be for account blocking. Is this a proper issue for a BugZilla request, or is there a simpler way to edit that interface? — Satori Son 15:40, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

(deindenting) I don't think there's any point trying to talk to admins. Some even missed the whole point here, so if you want to say something, go ahead, I don't think it'll change anything. I see also that no one has come up with a viable solution for the problem at hand (backlog of pages). The idea about defaulting to 1 month I like, because I'd consider that to be the maximum for any new protection. As zzuuzz said above, articles can be reprotected, it's not a big deal like it's been made out to be here. If someone reverts my unprotection, I won't loose any sleep over it, I promise. Everyone is way too afraid of being accused of "wheel warring". Like Nike says, Just Do It, and stop trying to be politicians. Be bold has been a wiki-principle forever, but no one does it anymore. -Royalguard11(T·R!) 17:15, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

I don't think there's any point trying to talk to admins. I'm not sure if that's a good approach. By that reasoning, the rest of us ought not talk to you, either, and just undo your actions without comment.... Incidentally, I don't mind the idea of having a default protection period of some intermediate length. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 17:35, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

There's no point in talking, the only solution is to undo admin actions with a template message? This kind of behavior on both sides is why we have this problem. As far as I'm considered both sides are being uncommunicative and irresponsible... then wondering why there's a problem. --W.marsh 19:59, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

... be bold but not reckless. I have no beef with unprotecting most of those articles. I have a big problem with mindlessly unprotecting all articles without so much as a bit of consideration on whether it's a good idea for the specific articles. — Coren ^(talk) 21:37, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

As nobody seems to object to putting a default protection period of a month rather than the blank "indefinite" period, does anyone have a Bugzilla account and would be willing to request this? I am technically inept and would quite possibly request the wrong thing from the wrong person. Neıl ☎ 09:24, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

Ditto; such a request is completely unfamiliar to me. I'm not even sure BugZilla is the right venue; it might just be a matter of someone editing our local en- interface? Again, no idea, but it would be a shame to let this excellent suggestion fall to the wayside. Any suggestions from anyone on how to get this implemented? — Satori Son 13:14, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

I found no Mediawiki page for this. You're welcome to dig through Special:Allmessages, but I'd just report a bug (I'll do it myself later if no-one does, but the bugzilla search isn't working for me right now, and I'd want to check it wouldn't be a duplicate first) —Random832 16:15, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

Ok, I'm going to give up here. I will stop unprotection runs. But, since you guys want me to stop, you can figure out a way to deal with the problem that we have. Oh, and just keeping them protected for longer isn't an option. We're already violating our principles by having these protected for 8 months. -Royalguard11(T·R!) 17:29, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] The dépeceur of Bergen (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log · rfcu)

User:The dépeceur of Bergen is accused on the checkuser page of issuing serious threats in french. It does not qualify as a checkuser case and I do not speak french so I am bringing it here. Below is the text of the complain from CAT:RFCU. -JodyB _talk 23:11, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

• Supporting evidence: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk%3ABradipus&diff=177566301&oldid=173777205.

I do not know if any of you speaks french, but this text is a death threat directed to me and my family. This is most probably linked to fr:WP:MS, a long term vandalism on WP:fr. Besides vandalising, the vandal steals identities (I had some difficulty getting back the "Bradipus" identity, also here), and posts defamation on WP:fr admins all over internet (here in the serbian WP, a text accusing various admins of serious crimes such as pedophilia!!).

But what brings me here is this text of which I will translate the beginning: "I will cut you into pieces. I was unfairly blocked (not by me, as far as I know), I will do justice myself. I will cut you into pieces and eat your brain and your willie. I will kill all french speaking bourgeois (...). I will take care myself of your two little pieces of trash (that refers to my two children who are mentionned on my user page) that I will drown after crushing them against a wall. We will have your wife raped by hobos. No flemish would want to have that latin bitch (...)".

Death treats againts me and againt my family, this is getting quite serious. And according to what I know, this guy may well live a couple of kilometers away. I would like to get the IP of that guy if possible. Bradipus (talk) 21:59, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

Ask Slakr. He knows French. —BoL @ 23:22, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

It is definitely a death threat. Blocking. — Coren ^(talk) 23:23, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

... been beaten to it. — Coren ^(talk) 23:25, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

I was able to get it confirmed. -JodyB _talk 23:26, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

Ewww... Very nasty (odd it's in French, though, given the rantiness of the content against Francophones). I see there's a link in there to the nl wiki. Might that be worth investigating by the people over there? Tonywalton ^Talk 00:51, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

Took a look at nl - the user mentioned appears to have been blocked as a sokpop (what a nice word) some time ago. Takes all sorts. Tonywalton ^Talk 00:59, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

It is fr:Wikipédia:Vandalisme de longue durée/Affaire Lustucri-MS and m:Vandalism reports/BogaertB. -- lucasbfr ^talk 01:24, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

Someone should update the meta page (is protected). x42bn6 Talk Mess 04:37, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

I've taken advice from Mike Godwin here and have now answered the above checkuser case to the best of my abilities under the circumstances. I wish there was more I could do here but there isn't. I've revealed as much information as I can legally do and note that there is no useful geo-locating information to be obtained from the underlying IP address. BTW - the message in French actually reads worse than the above translation, IMO. It's disgusting - Alison ^❤ 04:36, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

I did not want to be accused of exagerating in my translation...thanks for the efforts. Bradipus (talk) 07:30, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

Definitely not an exaggeration. ("I impatiently await the day of liberation for Brussels by the forces of public hygiene" - Mon dieu!) Neıl ☎ 13:30, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

My goodness, a death threat in another language, possibly to intensify the message - block endorsed. Maser ^(Talk!) 04:16, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

And coupled with a username which is the nickname of one of the bloodiest serial killers in recent Belgian historyFrenchEnglish[39]... Not much positive can be expected of this editor. Fram (talk) 14:29, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Immediate action requested regarding email abuse

This morning, I opened up my email to discover a blizzard of short messages saying "F*** you, n****"--all sent by way of the "Email this user" function. All of the emails were sent from accounts that were created very early this morning (North American Eastern Time). I am assuming that these are all socks of an experienced user, as it is very unlikely that a new user would know about the email capability. They are also clearly the person, as the emails all come from the same Yahoo Mail address.

I am asking--no, demanding--that the following users be indefblocked immediately:

• Glorybud44 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · block user · block log)
• Beganbud (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · block user · block log)
• Maildeath (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · block user · block log)

If necessary, I'll forward samples to any admin who needs proof of this ... just one email from each ID, before anyone gets spooked. Clearly someone is in need of a permanent Wikibreak. Blueboy96 14:02, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

Done, e-mail blocked. Although of course it will be difficult to stop them from continuing through other throwaway accounts if they really want to. Fut.Perf. ☼ 14:15, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

Could try WP:CHECKUSER to try and block the underlying ip. Woody (talk) 14:20, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

See Wikipedia:Requests for checkuser/IP check#Email personal attacks. Woody (talk) 14:24, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

Please don't demand. :) However, based on a CU check as reported here the three accounts you've reported operate from a common IP and I have blocked it for a week with account creation disabled. Please advise of any further issues or concerns. I think Kim's on to something interesting if it can be elaborated and turned into a developable thing. Maybe not once per day but certainly not unlimited. ++Lar: t/c 03:29, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

My apologies, Lar ... I was just hot enough to melt the snow in the Northeast when I saw 400+ emails from this troll clogging my Inbox. Thank God I have Yahoo Mail ... Blueboy96 12:57, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

Also, this might be useful to report to devs, as it's a spamming loophole. --Kim Bruning (talk) 14:41, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

Kim, are you thinking of putting a limit on its use? For example, allowing each person to use this feature only once per recipient in a given period of time? (The recipient usually has an email address for the sender, so if the recipient wants to talk about something off-wiki they can reply, which gives the sender the recipient's email address, & neither needs to use this again.) Or do you have a better solution Kim? -- llywrch (talk) 21:22, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Concerns for User:Bluetim1

Here. Special:DeletedContributions/Bluetim1 may have clues as to identity. Dlohcierekim 14:19, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

"Worthless People" and expression of anger User:Bluetim1 and on my talk. Special:Contributions/Bluetim1. Dlohcierekim 14:29, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

Wikipedia is not therapy. There is not direct threat at all. I consider this matter to be a non-issue. - Jehochman ^Talk 14:33, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

I have removed the Resolved tag as I believe that this IS an issue. Is it possible for someone who can access the IP address of the user in question to forward details to the local law enforcemetn so that a check can be made - as has been done in previous cases? DuncanHill (talk) 14:39, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

Too right! Wikipedia is not therapy, but it might be nice if a checkuser could identify him and send out the appropriate help. Do I need to post there, or can we get this done from here? Dlohcierekim 14:41, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

But, there is no threat apparent. Let's not create drama for the sake of drama. Encouraging people to file reports that waste law enforcement resources is not a joke! Perhaps I am missing something. Can you point to the diff that contains an actual threat? - Jehochman ^Talk 14:42, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

Speaking as a nurse, I see enough to say we need to try to identify this person and have the cops do a welfare check. Speaking form Wikipedia:Potentially suicidal users, there is enough to contact the authorities and have them do a welfare check. We are not shrinks and could not assess over the internet if we were. Ergo, the best, safest choice is to try to identify and get local authorities to check. Dlohcierekim 14:47, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

Also per Wikipedia:Potentially suicidal users, it is not a waste of time. Dlohcierekim 14:49, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

Talk of suicide is often a threat of suicide even if the threat is not directly articulated. In my experience, the police would much rather investigate and find no real problem, than not receive a report and run the risk of having to tell a family that their loved one is dead, and that someone knew there might be a problem and chose to do nothing. To make a good-faith report of concern to the police is never a waste of their resources, instead it is giving them the information they need in order to do their job properly. DuncanHill (talk) 14:49, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

Diff? I don't see talk of suicide. - Jehochman ^Talk 14:54, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

The VERY FIRST diff at the start of the thread - the addition of the comment "solves everything" to the talk page of Suicide. DuncanHill (talk) 14:56, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

Suicide talk page here, as I already posted. State of mind as evident in his comments to my talk page and and his uesr page. State of mind in the deleted article Worthless People.(Links as per my original, heading refactored by someone else, post.} Dlohcierekim 15:00, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

That's trolling, perhaps, but not a threat. I will say it again, Wikipedia is not therapy. Don't try to get inside other peoples' heads. Bringing this to ANI is risks WP:BEANS. - Jehochman ^Talk 15:01, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

You are not qualified to to say it is not a suicidal ideation. Having the cops come to the house and consider an involuntary commitment is the last thing any one wants. It will not encourage anyone to post such remarks to have someone send out the cops and check. That is why the policy says to post here. Dlohcierekim 15:04, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

• It looks like a simple venting of frustration to me rather than an actual serious threat. I wouldn't consider a ambiguous statement made 10 hours ago to be something that is really actionable at this point. More likely than not, any attempt at this point to get authorities to contact this person will only exacerbate the situation.--Isotope23 ^talk 15:05, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

I think the guy is just frustrated because he really wants Wikipedia to have an article about his favorite science teacher. Last time I checked, Wikipedia:Notability says we don't have articles about non-notable people. It isn't worth it for us to send law enforcement out to his house. There's no credible evidence that he's threatening anything against himself. --Elkman ^(Elkspeak) 16:15, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

I know that "otherstuff exists" isn't regarded as a valid reason for keeping an article, but Wikipedia has thousands of articles about non-notable people - but women who flash their tits for money, or guys who wrote some obscure video-game are apparently the sort of people a lot of editors want to see here. DuncanHill (talk) 16:23, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

I'm sorry, but we're not in a position to judge whether somethings credible or not. We're not mind readers, it's always worth it to send law enforcement on check welfare calls. It's part of their job and it's what they do. I'm always surprised when I read people's comments when they try and judge whether someones serious or not. I'll tell you one thing, they (LE) always take this stuff seriously. Always. And we should too. It's not "therapy" having someone do a welfare check...RxS (talk) 16:25, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

There is no threat at all. If you look at the diff, there is no statement whatsoever like "I am going to do X". Please people, let's stop being trolled and get back to work. - Jehochman ^Talk 16:35, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

Worth pointing out that if law enforcement authorities conclude that there is no threat and do not act, it then becomes their decision rather than ours, and I'd much rather they decide than myself. That being said, there is a high chance it is simply trolling. Orderinchaos 19:34, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

• Expressing unhappiness is not a threat to commit suicide. Proceeding with matters like this is nonsense. W are not here to do welfare checks, or to screen our posters for mental illness. DGG (talk) 20:33, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

Indeed we are not here to do welfare checks - but the police are happy to do them, it is, after all, part of their job. DuncanHill (talk) 22:04, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

re the 'lets stop being trolled' comments (& keeping in mind what duncan just pointed out): following WP:SUICIDE & passing it on to relevant lea without attempting to second guess users mindstates is the least 'troll-feeding' option. as it is by having this discussion every time this comes up (a few times in the last fortnight) we are effectively giving potential trolls far more attention than we would by simply following a procedure which, btw, was wholeheartedly endorsed by jimbo & many long standing eds/admins in one of those recent discussions.  ⇒ bsnowball  08:25, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Talk:Seung-Hui Cho

Probably vandalism, but this comment was posted on the talk page: "I MUST SAY THIS DUDE IS LIKE A ROLE MODEL TO ME.. IM PLANNING ON DOING A SIMILAIR MASSACCRE IN MY SCHOOL ITS GONNA BE AWSOME!!!" see diff: [40] --Strothra (talk) 17:15, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

Hm, he just posted that it was a joke, [41]. --Strothra (talk) 17:18, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

Still worthy of advice that this, even as a joke, is unacceptable on Wikipedia. --Rodhullandemu (please reply here - contribs) 17:26, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

I totally agree. --Strothra (talk) 17:36, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

Report to WMF if possible? —BoL @ 03:25, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

Too much, I doubt the Foundation would be bothered. A stern warning from an Admin should be enough. It would be very different indeed if the comment had not been retracted, however. That would have merited LEA involvement. --Rodhullandemu (Talk) 14:03, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Abusive identification of Legistorm.com as "spam"

Continuing his crusade of administrative abuse, User:JzG has add legistorm.com to the MediaWiki:Spam-blacklist (see this edit). As discussed earlier, this is a neutral, non-partisan site that provides objective and relevant information regarding Congressional staff salaries. Above and beyond the general benefit of providing this information fro all congressmen, an example of where this is particularly relevant was a citation used at the Jerry Lewis (politician) article, documenting the fact that the representative's wife is employed at $120,00 per annum as his chief of staff. This reference was removed by JzG, with an excuse in the edit summary noting that he was "removing per discussion on ANI and elsewhere". The problem is that there has been no consensus reached that Legistorm.com is spam, nor has there been any support here for JzG's bizarre position. It seems that JzG, having been caught with his pants down in an abusive block of User:Timjowers, has decided to compound the abuse by declaring the site spam, preventing any reference to the site in any context. Above and beyond removing the listing from MediaWiki:Spam-blacklist, it is high time that JzG is stripped of any and all administrative powers. Alansohn (talk) 20:46, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

• I suggest proposing the removal of the site from the blacklist at MediaWiki_talk:Spam-blacklist#Proposed_removals. User:Zscout370 ^{(Return Fire)} 21:10, 19 December 2007 (UTC)
• I can't find any relevant ANI discussion or even a consensus on the blacklisting of the link. After viewing the site, I can't find any reason that the site should be banned, given that it does do a heck of a job at providing politician salaries. Seicer (talk) (contribs) 21:37, 19 December 2007 (UTC)
  • Here is all I can find: [42]. It's used as such in the CongLinks template, such as this example. And there has been no discussion or even feature removal at the template, indicated here. Seicer (talk) (contribs) 21:41, 19 December 2007 (UTC)
  • It would have been blacklisted for spamming, obviously. It was blacklisted per here, here, and here. Sean William @ 21:41, 19 December 2007 (UTC)
  • Looking above and here, five accounts and an IP registered to the site have spammed the link. I support the blacklisting. Nwwaew (Talk Page) (Contribs) (E-mail me) 21:42, 19 December 2007 (UTC)
• One problem with the site is lots of ads. Adding a link to hundreds of congresscritter's articles helps to funnel eyeballs and therefore ad revenue to the site. Linking to a noncommercial source for the same information is preferred under external links policy. Thatcher131 21:56, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

That sounds right (although google adsense is hardly "lots of ads"), but is there a non-commercial site? A quick look finds me no replacement. Unless there's an alternative available, I think the site should be removed from the blacklist and be linked on its own merits.

As for the retributive attitude, I understand the need to deter spammers, but I'm going to confess some ignorance. When I think of "spam," I think of a minor site getting undue placement for its own benefit. These links, although they were spammed, look meritorious and have been adopted by non-COI users. I think it would be bizarre to blacklist meritorious sites; it would give bad faith spammers the ability to block links to sites they don't want. I think this kind of gaming would occur in political topics. Cool Hand Luke 22:08, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

Actually, I don;t think the links, as added, were meritorious or editorially appropriate. It's as if you put a list of salarys of Microsoft executives in Bill Gates' article. See my comments below. Thatcher131 22:17, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

No. Gates is not a public servant; it's a strange comparison. Even JzG saw merit to the information stating, "If that is public information it'll be available form a site that does not eomploy spammers." Isolated sources do sometimes report on staff expenditures, but this has the combined annual data in one place, along with their financial disclosures, which are useful primary documents. The Washington Post links have more ads than this, quite honestly. Cool Hand Luke 22:32, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

There are two separate issues here: 1) is it appropriate for an editor, who may be associated with a website, to add hundreds of links to the site; and 2) does the legistorm.com website, which provides neutral and objective details re congressional staff salaries qualify as spam, such that it should not be included as a link under any and all circumstances. You might find support that case 1 qualifies as spam (though I would heartily disagree). As for case 2, there has been no discussion, let alone any valid justification offered, as to why the site should be included on a blacklist so that neutral third party editors could add it as a link or reference. It is case 2 that is the subject for discussion here. I am more than willing to leave issues of JzG's administrative abuses to be dealt with separately. Alansohn (talk) 22:04, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

There is no attempt to provide any context here, such as "representative Smith has the largest and highest paid staff, despite being a junior member" or some such. Remembering that this is supposed to be Rep. Smith's biography, a bare link to a site with information on his staff salaries seems tangential at best. If Rep. Smith has had problems with his staff, or his staff has in some other way come to public notice, perhaps. As nothing more than a link, without context in the article, and on a tangential topic, it is unquestionably spam. It may or may not deserve to be on the blacklist; I expect that if Rep. Smith or Sen. Jones' staff suddenly get embroiled in a scandal, their salary information will be covered by other sources without the spam problem. Thatcher131 22:14, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

Would you put information about Microsoft executive salaries in Bill Gates? Is there an article on Congressional Staff Members that discusses salary? This would be a good place for the link, or as a source. Thatcher131 22:19, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

That is a faulty analogy. I also wouldn't link to how Bill Gates voted, what his campaign contributions were, or how various interest groups rated him either (all of these are currently on all/most congresspeople). Neither those or staff salary information makes since in the context of a CEO of a private company. However, they all DO make sense when we are talking about a public, elected official. Each of these are currently used. The following two of them also from sites that feature ads as well (more prominant than those on legistorm), and have not be blocked.

The bad actions from some users/ip's apparently associated with the legistorm domain justifies blocking (after the warnings I assume took place) those users and/or ip #'s from editing -- it does NOT justify blocking an a site that offers useful, relevant information that is not offered anywhere else online (that any of us have found). kenj0418 (talk) 22:51, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

Claire McCaskill's voting record maintained by The Washington Post (huge ads)[43] Claire McCaskill's issue positions and quotes at On The Issues (dancing and/or blinking banners) [44]

• Jesus wept. See the start of the thread? User:Alansohn. As far as he's concerned the definition of an abusive action is: I did it. He has been nurturing a grudge against me for pointing out that he used misleading edit summaries in a content dispute. I blacklisted the site because it was being spammed, it's a perfectly standard action, thois is an AdSense spam site which was being heavily linked by single purpose accounts - the canonical definition of link spamming. It was linked on the noticeboards and the spam project. What's really bizarre here is that it was Alansohn who originally complained about the legistorm spammer! Which admins will Alansohn permit to deal with his reports of spamming, so we can avoid being accusded of admin abuse for dealing with a problem that he identifies? Guy (Help!) 22:45, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

Wait a minute. Before everyone gets out the pitchforks and torches, lets look at the spam report earlier today (well before the blacklisting) on the WikiProject Spam talk page. Another admin, Hu12, went through all the edits of multiple single purpose accounts (and a Storming Media IP) and found two of these SPAs had added 656 links with no other edits.

That's incredibly abusive spamming -- probably the worst case reported in a month or two. Guy absolutely was justified. He just got confused and referred back to the WP:ANI page and not the WT:WPSPAM page. --A. B. ^(talk) 22:53, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

The bad actions by some legistorm related people (I'll take it on your word that it happened) does not justify removing a legitimate, informative website by blocking the entire domain in the spam blocklist. This is a ridiculous overreaction. I have requested that this domain be removed from the blacklist. MediaWiki_talk:Spam-blacklist#Proposed_removals kenj0418 (talk) 23:10, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

There seems to be a complete inability by JzG (and his apologists) to distinguish between actions and content, combined with an utter refusal to pursue consensus on this issue. While one could argue (weakly) that the addition of links by those assoicated with an external site could constitute spam, no one -- not even JzG at his most disruptive -- has argued that the site itself is spam, and that no third party editors should be able to add links to the site under any circumstances. You admins can decide amongst yourselves if the editors associated with site and adding links are spammers. I'm not, and I am one of many editors who want to link to the site. Either give a legitimate policy reason why the site should be blocked as spam under any and all situations or remove the link from the MediaWiki:Spam-blacklist. Alansohn (talk) 23:18, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

• It's a wiki, and what is done can be undone. There is no question that the addition of 600+ links, to an ad-supported site, with no other editorial content or purpose, is spam. Putting the site on the black list is the most effective way to deal with it. If a regular (i.e. multi-interest, not connected with the site) editor wants to selectively add the link where appropriate (say, to an article about a congressperson who has a staff scandal) he can ask that it be removed from the list, either temporarily or permanently. But there is nothing wrong with the initial blacklisting at the time. Thatcher131 23:52, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

• So if I added it, it'd be okay? Either the links are okay or they aren't. The account that adds them shouldn't matter. Timjowers e-mailed me today. Fortunately, I don't think he's gone for good. So, at least Guy didn't manage to chase off a potential contributor. Mr Which??? 00:01, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

• I get the impression a huge number of SPAs (sockpuppets?) were adding a huge number of links in a very small amount of time. Why wouldn't that attract some stiff attention? I don't think I've seen a declaration that "we won't link to this site, ever," more like "WAAAAAAGH WE'RE DROWNING IN LINKS STOP IT STOP IT STOP IT." Now that things have hopefully calmed down a bit, it's easier to discuss the merit (or lack thereof) to linking. – Luna Santin (talk) 00:07, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

I would say that if you as an editor felt that this site was a reliable source in an editorially appropriate context, then you should be able to do that. However, adding 600+ links in the absence of any editorial context was spamming. These are bios about the members, not their staffs. If the article includes discussion of the staff so that it is relevant to talk about their salaries or financial disclosure forms, then this site might be a good reference to cite. The distinction is perhaps too subtle for some, but I think (in general but definitely in this specific case) that adding relevant sources to the body of the article as determined by the needs of the article is good editing, but adding the same external link to 600+ articles is spamming, even if the site would be acceptable as a reference under other circumstances. I guess that means that I think the site should be taken off the blacklist, but that the prior editors who made 600+ links were spamming, and the addition to the blacklist was in good faith. Thatcher131 00:10, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

• Justifiable Blacklisting, supported by evidence, more evidence and facts. Wikipedia is NOT a "repository of links" or a "vehicle for advertising". External links policy on Advertising and conflicts of interest states You should avoid linking to a website that you own, maintain or represent, even if the guidelines otherwise imply that it should be linked. This blacklisting is a clear result of WP:SPA (WP:SOCK) accounts and a WP:COI IP ('Storming Media LLC) being employed for the sole purpose to Spam Legistorm.com and to self-promote. see Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Spam#Storming_Media_LLC_Spamming. Storming Media LLC has clearly illustrated a situation where a single company is using Wikipedia to promote for their own interests (Adsense pub-5159231827098763).--Hu12 (talk) 00:26, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

• Again, all you have accomplished with this supposed "evidence" might support the fact that those individuals associated with the site who are adding links may justifiably be considered spam. There has been no discussion or justification provided by the administrator who blacklisted the site as to why this was done or what we're being protected from. Nothing in this laundry list of links justifies falsely labeling the site and its contents as spam. I -- and many other editors -- have indicated that there are valid reasons to include the site in articles, both in references and as external links. Rather than asking "Mother, may I" for each and every article that would benefit from a link to the site, the entry must be removed from MediaWiki:Spam-blacklist. Leaving it on the blacklist is disruptive in the most WP:POINTy way possible. Hell, if ads are the real issue, let's get rid of all those links on Congressional articles to The Washington Post and The New York Times. Alansohn (talk) 00:32, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

Then go to MediaWiki_talk:Spam-blacklist#Proposed_removals. Thatcher131 00:36, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

• Alansohn, Additions are logged. The administrator who blacklisted the site did properly log the entry apropriatly, so that future users can easily find the reason. We had this discussion on the CongLinks template's talk page, You were aware of the posibility of blacklisting, and act supprised that it has occured. --Hu12 (talk) 01:03, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

Hu12,t he policy say one should avoid editing with COI, not that it is prohibited. The reason for this is that many good articles (and many good links are originally contributed by people with COI (and then have to be discussed by other editors). What would have been really good is if the outfit had come out with the proposal to link the material there, and let people consider it objectively. I hope we would have decided to use it, for it is truly excellent material that cannot be matched by any other single site, is non-partisanb, and very useful; to supplement our articles. They support themselves by ads, yes, but they do do to a good purpose. Our own purpose is to write an encyclopedia. We have the COI and SPAM policies because most material from such sources does not help accomplish this, and instead contributes to onesidedness, lack of NPOV, and bias rather than enlightenment for the user. When something comes along otherwise, we should use it. They did it wrong, but to we want to punish them for it, or to provide information in an encyclopedia. I care about results. I care about providing NPOV information. DGG (talk) 01:30, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

I hear what your saying DGG, and was well put. Perhaps Whitelisting on a "case by case" basis is best for Wikipedia at this point. Whitelisting should be implemented where it can be demonstrated as a valid source, in an appropriate context.--Hu12 (talk) 01:45, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

• The fact that there are two people who believe that there might be a conflict of interest here does not constitute a discussion nor does it create a consensus. No one appointed you or JzG as the authority to determine the appropriateness of this site, and I couldn't give a crap that you can't figure out why anyone would want to link to the site. You have no authority to unilaterally impose a whitelist, and consensus seems clear that this site provides relevant, useful information, that there is no objectionable content that is forbidden by Wikipedia policy and that there is no alternative source for this information that would satisfy your arbitrary demands. I'm not surprised that someone would have the gall to propose a possible blacklist; I'm just stupefied that anyone would have the chutzpah to follow through with it. The fact that someone can point to their own gobbledygook in a log doesn't constitute a "justification", it merely provides an excuse. Now that the damage has been done, and it's clear that this is no legitimate purpose to this abusive permanent block, it's time to fix yet one more mistake and remove legistorm.com from MediaWiki_talk:Spam-blacklist. You can even feel free to a log entry explaining the screwup. Alansohn (talk) 05:15, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

No matter what you think of how it was handled, clearly there was blatant and massive linkspamming by someone with a significant conflict of interest. And as I read through this thread and the previous four discussions, I do see that there was consensus for the initial blacklisting of the site based on that inappropriate behavior.

So let's please try and stick to the current issue, which is whether or not it is now appropriate to un-blacklist the site, as might well be the case. Personally, I am not at all convinced that legistorm.com meets the requirements of a reliable source, but I can see times where it would be appropriate as an external link. Are there any strong objections to now removing it and monitoring its addition to articles? — Satori Son 13:05, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

I object. They spammed their website using five user accounts and an IP. And their website is full of ads. If/when it gets unblacklisted, whats to stop them from doing it again? And what about the advertising on there? I'm thinking that Wikipedian clicking on link = money for them. Nwwaew (Talk Page) (Contribs) (E-mail me) 15:24, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

Point taken. Now that I think about it, this is probably not the best venue for this particular discussion anyway. For those interested, this matter is currently being debated at MediaWiki talk:Spam-blacklist#legistorm.com. Thanks. — Satori Son 15:31, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

You can "object" all you want. The WaPost and the NYTimes have ads all over them, and they're not black-listed. If the only problem is that SPAs are adding them, then let Alansohn put them back in. The information found at the site is neutral and helpful. Blacklisting them is not helpful to the project, which is what we're all about, right? Mr Which??? 15:33, 20 December 2007 (UTC)