Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive292

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Contents 1 Removing DYK nominations because of "squabble" 2 Confirmed sock puppetry to circumvent the 3RR rule 3 Persistent wikistalking and insults from User:Fahrenheit451 4 Bmedley Sutler, still 4.1 Time to take action? 5 Hakozen (2nd) 6 Disruptive user 6.1 Improper use of this board 7 Purple Hearts 7.1 Seems ridiculous 8 Arto Tunçboyacıyan 9 User:Movieguy999 10 Accusation of anti-semitism and terrorism 11 How much grace do we give? 12 Bot being disruptive, owner not responding to the criticism. 13 Minesweeper (computer game) edit war 14 User:Shinealight2007 going on WP:ATTACK spree 15 More Mmbabies junk 16 Eva Green spam? 17 Obvious copyvio 18 User:Giovanni33 causing problems 19 Logged out bot still editing 20 Crediting Wikipedia 21 Vandalism to Oakland, California 22 Block 23 Requesting Another Block or Protection 24 Please Advise Me 25 Concerns of Sockpuppetry 26 User:Dizzystufffolks 27 Njyoder (talk · contribs) 28 Name-calling by User:M.V.E.i., again 29 Fair use abuse in galleries 30 Request for Action 31 Orange Institution 32 Abusive language by Evlekis 32.1 On another note... 33 Unilateral move 34 Continued WP:STALK, WP:UNCIVIL, and WP:EW by Chrisjnelson 35 User revealing other users' real identity - this is bad 36 Template testing 37 User Posting Spam 38 Fourdee making racist postings 38.1 Issue stemming from this

[edit] Removing DYK nominations because of "squabble"

I would like to get the communities input on removing did you know nominations because you disagree with the DYK admins decisions about your articles. W.marsh (talk · contribs) block removed a large number of his contributions with an edit summary stating, "I know longer want this or any other article I created squabbled over here by bean counters." If you view the removed edits you see that Amarrg (talk · contribs) had commented on the length of his nominations in regards to how DYKS are selected. I left W.marsh a custom warning message after he began edit warring to keep removing his noms. I dont want to be beating a dead horse but feel that W.marsh is violating WP:POINT and has now broken the WP:3RR at Template talk:Did you know. I have made an effort to address this issue with the editor in question however my talk page comments were reverted or ignored. He has been notified of this thread. A second opinion on this would be much appreciated. Chrislk02 (Chris Kreider) 13:18, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

• This is trivial beyond belief... Chris wants to make sure the nomination, which is doomed because of being 18 bytes too short, remains on the page so I am maximumly annoyed. He has also posted annoying messages to my talk page to that effect, and of course moved on to step 3, the AN/I thread. This all could have been solved by simply asking himself whether he needed to go gung ho over a failed nomination, or just let another editor edit in peace. He chose the former. This is not an important issue. --W.marsh 13:21, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
  • First off, I have never crossed your path on this project. The comment, " Chris wants to make sure the nomination, which is doomed because of being 18 bytes too short, remains on the page so I am maximumly annoyed" is completly out of line and a complelte lack of assuming good faith. 18 bytes short, I would offer to fix them. Removing them before the nom truly expires is counter productive to the point of DYK. DYK is not black and white. It is fluid, you make changes you fix things that are wrong with articles. You dont delete them in anger because of "bean counters" Chrislk02 (Chris Kreider) 13:25, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
    • Except of all the people whining about the 18 bytes, no one has bothered to edit the article or explain what the extra 18 bytes might actually add, other than meeting a meaningless quota. If that had been the focus of the discussion, my reaction would have been totally different. --W.marsh 13:26, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
      • That is right, not even you have offered to expand it. You will gladly WP:OWN your posts at TTDYK but dont feel, it is worth it to add 18 bytes to an article you nominated instead feel it would be better to just delete it. Do you see why I am frustrated now? It has nothing to do with "out to get you." I dont even know who you are. Chrislk02 (Chris Kreider) 13:29, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
        • if you have a problem with the way DYK is run, or think it is stupid, try to reform it. I dont disagree with you that 18 bytes is stupid and I prob would have put it up anyways. I thought they were well written articles which is one of the reasons I did not want to see them removed. We need good DYK articles and you clearly can write them. Chrislk02 (Chris Kreider) 13:31, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
        • Where did I say I wanted the article deleted? You're just making things up now. --W.marsh 13:32, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
• If someone doesn't want their stuff on DYK, it doesn't have to be there, no? Moreschi ^Talk 13:27, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
  • Is that just like saying if somebody does not want there stuff in the article, they can take it out too? GFDL? Chrislk02 (Chris Kreider) 13:29, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
  • In every forum on Wikipedia, one can withdraw one's own nominations if it's doomed and everyone agrees. It's just common sense, as I said in an edit summary. --W.marsh 13:30, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
    • GDFL is not relevant here in the slightest. You know that just as well as I do. Complete red herring. Moreschi ^Talk 13:31, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
      • No, that is exactly what this is about. I hate to see people, remove good content because they have a disagreement or are too proud to add 18 bytes to an article. I feel he does not WP:OWN his content being he released it under GFDL and does not have the "right" to remove it. I will go add the damn 18 bytes to the article because I like the articles. It has nothing to do with out to get somebody or making attacks. It has everything to do with how I believe this project shoudl work where people cant take back there stuff because they disagree. If these were truly doomed, I would not give a damn. The only critique was, 18 bytes short. Chrislk02 (Chris Kreider) 13:33, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
  • Just a note to explain the first reversion was by me, purely because W.marsh had carelessly also deleted someone else's nomination of a second article that was nothing to do with him. Subsequent to-ings & froings have just involved his article, so are strictly not the same reversion. He does seem amazingly bad-tempered, I must say. Johnbod 13:35, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

Ironically a Kentucky editor who probably knew or cared little of this silly dispute has since added the precious 18 bytes and more to the article. --W.marsh 13:40, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

• I was going to say, I woul dlike to thank Dale Arnett (talk · contribs) for beating me to expanding the article! Thanks! Chrislk02 (Chris Kreider) 13:42, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
• Excuse me, but why on earth would a DYK nomination fail over something as ludicrous as being eighteen bytes too short? What's the point of that, other than meaningless red tape? >Radiant< 15:22, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

• I guess people may be confusing the word should with must in the guideline: "Articles should have a minimum of 1,500 characters of main body text in size, and preferably longer - no stubs." -- Flyguy649 ^talk _contribs 15:29, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

• Because if you say something sensible, like "of reasonable length", too many people would be unable to function properly due to no criteria to do their thinking for them (even if it's utterly arbitrary and counter-productive, as all such criteria are). This is a general rule and in no way specific to DYK, or even Wikipedia. Neil ム 16:14, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

• DYK rules guidelines used to get bent or broken all the time, and for good reason... the real goal of DYK, in my view, is to foster good and interesting article contributions by both new, and established editors, and their subsequent improvement. I'd point to my latest DYK article Christopher Columbus (whaleback) which was a pretty good article, but is now a lot better after having gotten exposure, lots of other editors came in and made improvements. That's the sort of thing DYK fosters. I am not sure that being 18 bytes short of a suggested guideline is a "doomed" nomination that needs removal immediately, nor am I sure that an editor should feel that preventing a nom is appropriate... DYK is a consensus driven process, or is supposed to be, and while it is rare that someone doesn't want "their" article featured on the front page, it's not entirely their decision. That said if people are nitpicking authors or their noms, that's not good. The guidelines exist to cut down on squabbling, not to foster it. For the most part they have been effective at improving the perceived reasonableness of the process. Ultimately, though, people who don't like the outcomes should get more involved in the process and do some updates themselves to see what it's like. ++Lar: t/c 16:41, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

• I don't think this particular article would have been ignored by the updaters. On the other hand, it is not that difficult to add 18 bytes of text to the page. Although there is no instruction creep, we need to stick to some sort of rules/guidelines. W.marsh should have been more patient. If he/she absolutely needed to remove the nomination, the best course was to comment it out, rather than summarily removing a bunch of comments and even an unrelated nomination. --Ghirla^-трёп- 13:48, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

• I don't think it would have been ignored either. Nor do I think it would have been hard to come up with what, 4 words? Some sort of guidelines are good, some patience is good too, some flexibility in applying guidelines is good too. Hopefully that is that? ++Lar: t/c 19:49, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Confirmed sock puppetry to circumvent the 3RR rule

[edit] Persistent wikistalking and insults from User:Fahrenheit451

I've endured harassment from this user for many months now, but User:Fahrenheit451 shows no signs of letting up the nonstop needling. No matter what or where I post, it's a given that User:Fahrenheit451 will show up (often immediately) and post a highly insulting, ridiculing, unhelpful and often unrelated-to-matter-at-hand tirade against me. He's done similar baiting with other editors such as User:Leocomix and User:Justanother as well, apparently hoping to incite them to lose their temper. His most recent examples are the deliberate mess he's made of Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Idenics and here: [21] [22] and there are dozens more on his contributions page. I just want him to leave me alone. Some of his remarks I find to be disturbingly subtly sexual in their undertone, such as calling me "Trixi", referring to my "sticky hands" and talking about "handling" me. wikipediatrix 22:05, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

(edit conflict - above)I have reviewed a sample of wikipediatrix's contributions and agree that Fahrenheit451 does indeed jump in on discussions, taking an opposing stance together with overfamiliar language (including abbreviations of wikipediatrix's name which she has requested he not do). I believe a first and only warning would suffice initially, but would like the opinion of another party as well as wikipediatrix's thoughts. LessHeard vanU 22:16, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

LessHeard vanU, Wikipediatrix and I have been on opposing content sides of the most controversial articles on Wikipedia, namely those that are scientology-related. She or he, is purposely taking words and phrases I have made out of context in a effort to solve what she sees as a problem, by means other than by editing. I will provide the diffs to show the context in the next paragraph.--Fahrenheit451 22:31, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

"sticky little hands"--Fahrenheit451 22:33, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

Explanation of "Trixi"--Fahrenheit451 22:36, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

mention of "Trixi"--Fahrenheit451 23:22, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

"handling" meaning and context--Fahrenheit451 23:35, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

I reviewed wikipediatrix's recent contrib history. I can provide diffs where she requested you not to use familiar username abbrevations, subsequent diffs where you did not, and further diffs where you reverted to referring to her as "trix(i)". I would also invite a third party to review whether the tone or content of your responses to her are appropriate. In the meantime I very strongly suggest that you use extremely neutral language and refer only to the topic in hand in those matters you feel you have a point to make. Whatever your motives for your use of language (and I AGF that you do not intend to distress) you must, per WP:CIVIL, moderate it as requested. LessHeard vanU 22:45, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

• Comment, as proven by my typo above I am needing my sleep. Can another person look over this? LessHeard vanU 22:52, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

Fahrenheit451, regardless of whether or not Wikipediatrix is correct in her interpretation of your comments as having any sexual tone, it's obvious that they're bothersome and that she does not appreciate the nicknames. So stop doing it. If someone requests not to be referred to by a nickname, don't. If the tone of your comments is bothering someone, tone them down. If it doesn't bother you, that's great, but that doesn't make that true of everyone, and you're needlessly inflaming the situation. Continuing to poke at someone in a way you know they dislike is highly uncivil and a form of harassment. Seraphimblade ^{Talk to me} 01:33, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

Seraphimblade, I have been editing WP for about 2 1/2 years and developed quite a bit of tolerance for other views as an editor of scientology-related articles. I really understand on the topic of wikipediatrix's alleged "sensitivity" to nicknames. I will use wpd or wpx instead. If that offends him/her, then I guess the matter will escalate. In any case, we are dealing with editors who do not and cannot WP:AGF because the practice of Fair Game (Scientology) proscribes how "the enemy", who they call Suppressive persons, are to be "handled". I can promise you that wikipediatrix will create some other issue to use as a complaint after this. The basic issue is not resolvable due to the dogma that cofs-directed editors are operating on. --Fahrenheit451 01:47, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

What part of "do not use abbreviations of the editors username", and "do not use them in a familiar manner" are you having difficulty understanding? If you wish I could enforce a period of contemplation by blocking you until there is some indication that you understand that that you are required to abide by wikipediatrix's requests per WP:CIVIL and WP:HARASS. I would also point out that even mentioning the context of the subject matter that wikipediatrix is in dispute with you as a possible excuse for your behaviour in an example of extreme bad faith on your part. Simply put, it is not acceptable to contribute in such a manner to annoy, scare, insult or otherwise harass another editor. Kindly stop doing so. Now. Thank you. LessHeard vanU 09:12, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

Do you see what I mean? He can't even help himself from doing it right here in front of everyone. Not only was "him/her" unnecessary, he's talking Scientology mumbo-jumbo about "Fair Game" and "cofs-directed editors", making the mistaken assumption that I must be a Scientologist (as if there's anything wrong with that), simply because I disagree with his excessively anti-Scientology edits. This is nuts, nothing short of just

[edit] Bmedley Sutler, still

Bmedley Sutler (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log)

This guy just will not stop taking shots at me. Here he is implying that anyone who supported me in my RfA is a bigot and homophobe.[23] Here he is baiting and taunting me, and accusing me of being a racist, because I do not choose to assist him in researching his pet POV project.[24][25] These are the same types of constant attacks that FAAFA used to pull off, a user banned for a year by ARBCOM, and who Bmedley has already admitted to editing in proxy for. How long is the community going to continue to assume good faith regarding this probable sockpuppet, when even he does not extend the same good faith to the community, judging by my first diff? I'm not sticking around tonight to bicker over this. I'll check in tomorrow. - Crockspot 05:18, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

This is 100% false. "probable sockpuppet" is a NPA too. He or his friends already made one harrassing RFCU on me that came back empty. I am trying to help Crockspots really. (refactor taunt) My last post I said that I was through with this issue since Crockpots made it so clear that he lacked any interest in what I asked him about documenting racism. I dont even know why hes bringing it up now except I think he is very sore that I was the one who posted those links to what he wrote on that other site. This whole issue is dead now. Except now he wants to re-live it here. Why, I ask. •smedleyΔbutler• 06:10, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

You two. First, let's not goad with references to quotes brought up at the RFA. Second, Crockspot, if you suspect him to be a sockpuppet, please take the case to Wikipedia:Suspected sock puppets and file a report there with plenty of evidence and a minimum of drama. Third, editing for banned users is explicitly prohibited. There's no diff for that, so that's all I'm saying for now.--Chaser - T 06:33, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

Thank you. I am not editing at all for FAAFA. I was blocked for 48 hours for that and I learned my lesson. He wanted me to add a long protest note after they re-set his 1 year block, and I told him no. •smedleyΔbutler• 06:39, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

I'm a bystander who opposes racism but hasn't edited William Regnery II. I'm opposed to axe murders too but I haven't edited this either. Does this make me a racist with a hatchet? Really Bmedley Sutler, stop it. Whatever the rights or wrongs of Crockspot's edits or former RfA, its not helped by disingenuous "suggestions" such as the ones you made above. Repeatedly misspelling his user-name isn't especially adult either. How about leaving him alone and get on with contributing to the encyclopedia?

As an aside I agree with Chaser re the sockpuppet allegations. If there is evidence, take it to the proper forum. Otherwise, leave it alone. Euryalus 06:40, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

Okay. I told him in my last post that I was through with this suggestion since he said he would not help anyway. This report from him was not needed and his accusation was an NPA. I will try not to mis-spell his name. Pot and Pots are the same meaning anyway. A Crockpot is an electric pot for making stew, yes? •smedleyΔbutler• 06:52, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

Crock-pot is for making stew, yes. "Crockspot" is the handle of a Wikipedia editor and nothing else.--Chaser - T 07:00, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

Bmedley, please quit playing stupid. No one buys it, and it is infuriating. Thanks, Pablo Talk | Contributions 07:25, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

(unindent for general comment)For now, just stay away from each other. Wiki is a huge place, there is no need, if you don't get along, to talk to each other, or edit the same articles, just don't do it. Mr. Sutler, I have some sympathey for some of your positions, but if you go out of your way to interact with crockspot, I will be at your WP:CSN, as quick as anyone (and vice-versa. . .take that how you will --in either case). Wikipedia is not a battleground (stop making it one!) and if you see it that way, you're in the wrong place (not speaking to anyone in particluar). Respectfully, R. Baley 07:32, 27 August 2007 (UTC)(comment strike at 18:55, 27 August 2007 (UTC) by R. Baley)

Bmedley has already been blocked by User:Thatcher131 for 24 hours for taunting and another 24 hours for acting as a proxy for FAAFA. He was warned that this would be his only warning [26][27]. He continues to taunt by reposting the RfA quotes. This is the noticeboard that needs to take action against this, not SSP. The issue is taunting, not sockpuppetry and it continues even after a 24 hr block. --Tbeatty 07:39, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

IMO, the above post is a harrassment. The 'only' warning was about making proxy posts for that FAAFA. I have seen lots of warnings for NPA and taunting. No one gets an 'only' warning for such things like quoting what someone actually wrote on another site. He wrote those things, not me! No offense but IMO Tbeatty is maybe on purposely mis-stating what happenned to get administrator action taken on me. IMO, he is part of an organized group and campaign that continuingly harrass Seven of Diamonds, Giovanni33, me, and a few others to try and ban leftists who resist them. If this harrassment continues I will be making an action on them. •smedleyΔbutler• 08:00, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

This is the exact wording:

“

*Result Blocked 24 hr for proxy editing and 24 hr for taunting. This will be his only warning. Thatcher131 19:40, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

”

--Tbeatty

Tbeatty's comment is correctly pointing out that you are continuing some of the behavior that led to a block. That is not harrassment. Also, this thread is about your behavior, and has nothing to do with neither Giovanni nor SOD. Pablo Talk | Contributions 08:04, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

Look who shows up! Where are the others? The 'only' warning was about proxy editing for that FAAFA. Tbeatty, IMO, tries to make it sound like I got an 'only' warning for NPA or 'taunting'. I have seen some editors post NPA attacks dozens of times with only warnings, not even blocks. Now Tbeatty is pushing for an action? This is too funny. Why is it the same 4-6 editors show up where ever I post? Is this not Wikistalking? This harrassment must stop. •smedleyΔbutler• 08:16, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

No one follows yur posts. You end up on AN/I. You end up on AN/I because you are trolling. The fact that a majority of your posts are defending yourself on AN/I is not evidence of other people stalking you. --Tbeatty 08:23, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

You actually argued the opposite point regarding MONGO. Stating the numerous AN/I posts regarding him are proof of harassment and trolling. Two sets of rules? --SevenOfDiamonds 12:43, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

Okay, thats it! "Bmedley, please quit playing stupid. No one buys it, and it is infuriating. Thanks, Pablo Talk | Contributions 07:25, 27 August 2007 (UTC) I should not be attacked because I have not yet mastered English! I ask that Pablo gets a 24 hr block for NPA. •smedleyΔbutler• 08:24, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

I ask that Tbeatty gets a 24 hr block for his NPA saying I am trolling too. This harassment and Wikistalking from the same small group must stop! •smedleyΔbutler• 08:27, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

Blocks are preventative, not punitive. Further, there is no consensus among admins that NPA violations ever warrant a block. I suggest you drop this and find an article to edit. You seem to be involved in a one-sided battle. KillerChihuahua^?!? 10:41, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

Isolated personal attacks are rarely blockable, but deliberate and repeated personal attacks, incitement, and treating Wikipedia as an ideological battleground are indeed blockable and even bannable, if not by the community then by ArbCom. Bmedley has several agendas and he needs to be told that agenda-driven editing is incompatible with Wikipedia's goals and philosophy. Thatcher131 11:55, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

• I have raised this issue previously on the arbitration enforcement noticeboard, and have provided other evidence linking this account with FAAFA's to Thatcher131 via email, along with past arbitration principles (including one from the arbcom that FAAFA was banned under) that show that there is more than enough evidence to treat this user as FAAFA. No serious action has yet been taken. I have even been told by admins in email that they are certain that they are the same editor, but that banned users should be given a chance to return and edit positively. Well this editor has maintained the same patterns of behavior that got FAAFA banned, fighting with the same users. From the day that Bmedley appeared, he has showed up in articles that I have long showed an interest in and attempted to disrupt by making suggestions that clearly do not meet our sourcing, npov, and OR policies and guidelines. He makes all too familiar suggestions that if other editors don't help him prove X, then they must be Xists. He says he has not mastered english, but sometimes in discussion, he slips into perfect english, like it was his mother tongue. I wonder what his claimed mother tongue is, and would like to see him converse in it in real time with someone else who speaks that language. I have only posted the latest diffs, because a significant percentage of his edits in discussion and talk contain cheap shots and attacks. If I have to take the time to document every single one, I will bring them before the arbitration committee, not here. - Crockspot 12:36, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

If repeated personal attacks are bannable (sp?) ... well it seems someone should have been banned by now for their attacks on me. Things on AN/I seem to go in one direction only. Also what is classified as "fighting" with the same users should be looked at from the other side. If those users believe he is FAAFA, then perhaps they are fighting with him on purpose. --SevenOfDiamonds 12:39, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

Which "someone" are you referring to? I have been showing an incredible amount of patience and restraint, and am not getting satisfactory action. - Crockspot 12:42, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

Not you, just a general point since my name was brought up here, I am starting to become a celebrity of sorts and would prefer people just let me edit in peace without subjecting me to WikiLaw & Politics 101. I am pointing out the irony of the situation. --SevenOfDiamonds 12:45, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

Well in my case, I have been trying to avoid conflict with Bmedley, to the point where he has driven me away from editing articles I have long been interested in. If anyone cares to notice, I am keeping my contributions mostly to discussion. In the article linked above, I even provided him a link and some information to assist and guide him to doing accurate research on this topic, but that was not good enough for him, so I must be a racist. I've had about enough. - Crockspot 12:50, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

I am in a similar situation in a further case of irony. I cannot edit articles related to one of my interests because I am afraid I will be compared to anyone else in my city editing it. I know the feeling, however it is probably for the best, and with all the articles on Wikipedia, I learned it is better to avoid the dramatists and just find something else to edit. Luckily I find peace in other articles that I am sure the "political" people on Wikipedia will have little interest in. Something that may help you, visit your local bookstore and pickup a book about a topic you enjoy. Hopefully it will have some useful information for you to add to an article. --SevenOfDiamonds 12:52, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

So your suggestion to solve the problem of an abusive sockpuppet in direct violation of an arbitration ruling is to go read a nice book? Perhaps I'm the one who needs to leave Wikipedia. - Crockspot 12:58, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

One suggestion is that calling each other names will not solve the issue. Is there a solution here? You want him banned on account he is a sockpuppet, something you will not bring to the appropriate venue to check. He thinks he has disengaged from you, and you keep bringing up the issue to stir drama. My suggestion as other suggested is to avoid eachother. It is a big encyclopedia. My suggestion to you, if you are here to help the encyclopedia, is to help expand articles, instead of fighting over what should and should not be in them. There are tons of articles that can use expansion and citations, pick one and enjoy the Zen of editing in near peace. Avoiding the dramatic will make you a better editor in my humble opinion. --SevenOfDiamonds 13:01, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

This colloquy is rather beside the point; Seven will have ample opportunity to address his concerns in the pending Arbitration case. As for Bmedley, I know he is in contact with FAAFA but I do not believe he is a sock or meat puppet (that is, I don't believe he has directly acted on a request by FAAFA since I blocked him for it). I do think he is driven by an agenda, and he needs to adjust his behavior. Thatcher131 13:06, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

(EC) Thanks Thatcher, I was of course replying to Bmedley's demand that Tbeatty be blocked for 24 hours, but I should probably have clarified my comments more. Certainly if Bmedley continues to disrupt the project then that would be a different situation. KillerChihuahua^?!? 12:42, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

Sorry, I didn't realize which comment you were referring to. Thatcher131 13:06, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

Well, it was clear in my head, why wasn't it clear in yours? :P Seriously, thanks for making it clear to me how unclear I'd been. KillerChihuahua^?!? 13:14, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

That blocks are preventative, not punitive is understood, but Bmedley's behavior issues are ongoing and show no shows of stopping. He's been blocked twice (and just missed a third), how long do we have to put up with unprovoked taunting like this? I don't see a consensus to block now, but I hope that we put him on a very short leash and make the next block longer. RxS 13:52, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

Count me as another support for a block for BMedley. I opposed at Crockspot's RfA, but ruthlessly dogging the guy isn't acceptable behavior. His actions in the past are worth NOTING for an RfA, but NOT strong enough nor valid enough to pursue any sort of consequences on wikipedia for him, like banning him as some sort of agenda warrior. You can't go around harrassing him with that forever, BMedley, an the fact that you're not listening here, as Strangelove notes above, weighs more, to me at least, than Crockspot's old actions. I think that they once blocked his RfA is probably the end of their viability as leverage against him. We all saw it, and we acted upon it to our consciences. You need to leave him alone. (Yes, I realize it's bizarre that I'm defending Crockspot, but different situations are different.) ThuranX 15:29, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

I dont think those are FAAFAs pictures unless you know something I dont. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Bmedley Sutler (talk • contribs) 23:25, August 27, 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Time to take action?

It seems clear from the above, if nothing else, that Bmedley is disruptive. In addition to any other issues, he has demanded that two editors be blocked for 24 hours each for perceived personal attacks - neither of which is blockable - which indicates he is making any dispute a personal battle. This wastes everyone's time. Is there support for more substantial action about this, above and beyond the patient explanations everyone has been giving him? mentorship? Some kind of parole? Community ban? KillerChihuahua^?!? 14:25, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

I suggest on-wiki mentorship or something for all those involved- Tbeatty, Mongo, Crock, Seven, and the rest. There has been at least four or five issues within this troupe in the past few weeks. Maybe it all started at Crock's RfA; in any case, that's when I noticed it. But the repetitious bad faith, personal attacks, and appearances on AN/I asking for each other's blocks is not helping the wiki at all. David Fuchs ^(talk) 14:32, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

I would actually love a mentor, however it may not be needed since I do not participate in drama filled political articles anymore. However if another admin would like to assist in guiding me, that would be more than welcome. I have questions abound. --SevenOfDiamonds 14:34, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

I'm not sure but something needs to be done. The disruption, edit warring, incivility, etc... is getting to out of hand. Perhaps an admin mentor who will keep an eye on the user would be helpful.--Jersey Devil 14:36, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

How about a ban from political articles for anyone who participates in an AN/I posting against the other? That would be interesting. If the behavior is bad, someone else is sure to notice it and report it themselves. Cleans up AN/I and maybe gives some users a much needed break from hot topics. --SevenOfDiamonds 14:38, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

That would be a very bad precedent, as it would permit any troll to pull a legitimate editor off of an article by harassing them on AN/I. THF 16:02, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

I think my feelings are clear, I don't know how long we have to put up with this type of behavior. It's probably too soon for a full ban, but a longer block is absolutely in order. Any one who looks at his talk page/archive can see all the warnings...he's an ongoing source of disruption. If there are other editors people have issues with that's fine, but please don't lump them all in here....they are separate issues. RxS 14:42, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

I actually do not think it is all separate issues. It is the same drama from the same group, my self included up until I just gave up and walked away from the articles. I have actually recommended others such as Crockspot and Smedley do the same. There are plenty of articles on Wikipedia to edit, which is why I decided to more focus on narco-terror related articles. I was pushed out by the same people calling for Smedleys ban. The same people who are on AN/I everyday calling for the ban of what can only be classified as another upset "left leaning" editor. --SevenOfDiamonds 14:47, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

I also want to make something clear before some clever person wiki links it. I do not think there is a cabal, but how often do you see the same editors calling for a ban of someone they are in conflicts with. I am sure its a possibility that editors from all over possibly gravitate to them to ca use them stress, or its something else. Its up to Wikipedia to determine which it is. Believing there is a cabal attacking them, is just as "wacky" as believing they are a cabal. The answer lies obviously in the center somewhere. --SevenOfDiamonds 14:50, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

I am not involved in your arbcom, I only edited a related article one time. Bmedley has been appearing in articles I have a history of contributing to. He went around this weekend and taunted other supposed RW cabalists to help him research his latest interest. This issue has nothing to do with you, it is about Bmedley. Though if he does get dragged into your arbitration, I will be there with bells on, and a list of diffs that will choke a donkey. - Crockspot 15:18, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

I think anyone looking at the series of warnings/blocks on his talk/archive page will see that a fairly broad range of editors have issued them. I don't think this concern is limited to a small group of editors. RxS 15:27, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

Support doing something, with the specific value of "something" being left to community consensus. Dealing with the drama that perpetually surrounds Bmedley has become a time sink, turning Wikipedia from an encyclopedia to a sociological experiment. I don't edit any of the same articles as Bmedley but anyone who has kept up with the proceedings to date can recognize that he's not an innocent party being unjustly persecuted, as he would have it. Raymond Arritt 15:06, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

Isn't Smedley involved in the SevenofDiamonds arbcom case, if he isn't, he should be tossed in there and let arb com deal with him, he's also involved in the same topic. Jaranda ^{wat's sup} 15:10, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

No, he's not listed at this time, and he has not entered a statement on the case. I'm not so sure about "tossing", but as its all intertwined it does seem like an excellent idea to have it all out at once, rather than piecemeal. KillerChihuahua^?!? 15:19, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

Sorry but my Arbcom is about a specific issue, attempting to lump my Arbcom arbitrarily into another issue seems foolish. Considering the attitudes here. I will present my counter-evidence to Arbcom and leave Wikipedia. The political bickering the exudes from this place once a editor receives a username is beyond comprehension. I should have just stood anonymous, editing without issue. --SevenOfDiamonds 15:30, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

I support a longer term block for disruption, maybe a month or so, with the clear indication to him that the next time he acts up he'll be gone indefinitely. Coddling him and mentorship will not work, since he clearly has it in his mind to be polemic, vitriolic, and disruptive. ⇒ SWATJester ^{Denny Crane.} 15:21, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

That is clear-cut enough. Supports/disagrees/comments? KillerChihuahua^?!? 15:31, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

See ThuranX's comment immediately preceeding this subsection. - Crockspot 15:32, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

I rather see arbcom deal with all this in one case, I do support the month block as well. Thanks Jaranda ^{wat's sup} 15:33, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

(EC) With regard to mentorship etc., admins can only warn, threaten and then block. With regard to blocks being preventative, not punative: yes, but sometimes prevention takes the form of blocking people so that they learn we are serious about enforcing community norms of behavior. Regarding action toward Bmedley at this time, I would suggest opening a user conduct RFC. One of Bmedley's complaints is that he is attacked by the same small group of users. So I would post a notice of the RFC on the CSN asking people who have never been involved with Bmedley to review the case and offer input. If the combined weight of many experienced Wikipedians does not convince Bmedley to change his attitude and approach, we would have the basis for either strong community action or Arbitration. Regarding Jaranda's comment, ArbCom sees this as a case against Seven (see particularly JamesF's acceptance vote) and ArbCom frankly does very poorly with blanket cases whose scope keeps expanding. It would be better to open a separate case against Bmedley. However, they usually will not review a case without a prior RFC, and ArbCom would only be needed after the RFC if there was a serious disagreement among admins as to how to handle the situation (as there is with Seven). We don't need ArbCom to spend two months to endorse a long block, topic ban, or site ban for a user who persistently "doesn't get it" as long as there is consensus among us admins. Thatcher131 15:38, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

I'd agree to this block, and agree that Arbcom doesn't necessarily need to be involved at this point. RxS 15:40, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

Not totally a disagreement with a block (he certainly "doesn't get it"), but Bmedley certainly isn't the only one in this situation who is being polemic, vitriolic or disruptive, as SwatJester put it. David Fuchs was correct above. ELIMINATORJR 15:44, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

Unless you are referring to me, which I don't think that you are, the other people are all involved in an arbcom, and will have their behavior investigated fully. This notice is a complaint by me against a single user. All these other distractions are just that, distractions. - Crockspot 15:55, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

I'd be fine with a month long block and do see it as a preventative block as per the comments made by Thatcher. I'm not sure a user conduct RFC would be appropriate as it would just make the process needlessly longer for something we all already know (that the user is causing a disturbance to normal wikipedia processes). But if you guys would like to go that direction I'd be fine with it as well.--Jersey Devil 15:55, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

Roll it in with the SoD arbitration if the committee will have it. There are more editors beyond those named there that are part of the problem.--Isotope23 ^talk 16:00, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

Smedley has been a warrior from day one. It would be ideal if he could take a step back and contribute in some less controversial or confrontational areas... that would go a long way toward demonstrating that he's here to improve the encyclopedia rather than fight with specific users over specific topics. Based on what I've seen so far, it would be really hard for me to disagree with a block for disruption at this point. However, if ArbCom will take the issue up that might be ideal, because the best solution may be a form of probation etc. rather than a block or ban. MastCell ^Talk 16:05, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

Agree with mastcell here. I think if Smedley backed off from the controversial articles, we would see if he's here to improve the encyclopedia and its a "near occasion of wiki-sin" or he's just plain disruptive. David Fuchs ^(talk) 16:11, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

Hello, Its not all my fault. How many times has Crockspot and the others been told to quit calling me a sockpuppet? And to take these accusations to an official hearing? And stop throwing wild charges about me? They already filed one RFCU that came back empty. There is a small group of 4-6 editors who fight anyone with a leftist POV. How many false RFCUs did they file on SevenOD? I would suggest a hearing on the actions of this whole group and the leftists they fought against. Go back 2 or 3 years. You will see to find an organized campaign of harrassments, complaints, call for bannings, and then bannings of those who don't share their exact POV. They have run wild over Wikipedia getting their way. And I mean no offense but a few administrators helped them and put politics before enforcing the rules fairly on both sides too. Look at the complaint boards. This groups names are there every day. They were fighting long before I got here. Any calls to action on me is just more of how they got their way for years now. I will avoid any arguing with them and when they attack me Ill just run to a complaint board too. See, one more time they get their way. Seven got run off certain articles and now I am too. Or facing a block. I will choose to avoid any conflict with them on any talk pages where we both edit. But I expect that they should have to follow the rules as much as I do. Thanks for the advice. To show that I have more than any agenda, I will go back to editing mor of the Big Sur articles which I wrorked on a lot before drawing in like a magnet to certain political articles where they are guarded like a grizzly bear mother guarding her young with 'White Wash' agendas. Please notice too, that when I first got here I suspected that CIA and DOD and USGOV were editing many articles. Guess what? Wikipedia should reflect a global POV. Not the POV of only the American right wing! I made these suspicions of the CIA and USGOV editing articles public and I was called crazy and paranoid and ordered by several administrators to stop and not to make any more of these accusations. Months later now the Wikiscanner poofs come out and show that I was right and this same group who called me crazy, and of whom I have so many problems was wrong! Whos laughing now? I will avoid this group where ever possible so that there needs to be no action on me as is their plan. Okay? Okay! •smedleyΔbutler• 16:32, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

More distraction. Who is "they"? Go back two or three years? I've been on Wikipedia a year and a half. I am here as an individual editor, filing a complaint against an individual editor, namely you. Your behavior toward me is unacceptable, and my complaint has nothing to do with any "others", nor with Seven, who's arbitration I am neither involved with, nor want to be. BTW, I looked at the wikiscanner output, and I have not seen any articles that I am involved in on the edit lists of the USCHIMPBUSHGOV and CIASPOOK edits. Do you still think I'm a "spook" for the CIA or the secret Rove empire? - Crockspot 16:36, 27 August 2007 (UTC) PS I have also never requested a checkuser on Bmedley. None is required, he has already admitted editing in proxy for FAAFA, and according to the arbitration ruling involving FAAFA, that is enough to assume and treat them as the same user. - Crockspot 16:46, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

Did Crockspot or anyone else call you a sockpuppet before you made edits clearly at the behest of FAAFA? You have to own your responsibility for that. Thatcher131 16:41, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

Smedley was accused of being a sockpuppet of Giovanni, then of FAAFA before he made the Big Sur edit to include FAAFA's pictures, which are honestly nice pictures. The sockpuppet check is under Giovanni33's name. It also accuses me of being Smedley. Consider me officially gone, and thank you. --SevenOfDiamonds 17:14, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

I don't believe I had anything to do with that. Because I voted in the past in a few AfDs similarly to some other editors, I am assumed to be the ringleader, or at least tied at the hip with these users. Nothing could be further from the truth. We don't even have the same interests in most articles. I am primarily concerned with BLP articles, those "others" are more concerned with NPOV aspects of topical non-biographies. - Crockspot 17:19, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

I think he and they did. I would have to check though. Look at Crockspots 'tone' above. "USCHIMPBUSHGOV" "Rove Empire" Its 'Mocking' and 'Taunting' IMO. I don't find it funny or helpful. And here on an official complaint baord? Of course he wants to not include the others in 'his' group and change the issue. I can go back a month and find a complaint where I ask to have this whole group looked at for harrassing me and others. If its going to be charges and counter charges asking for bannings and blocks and actions, lets address my months old complaint along with Crockspots call for only action of him vs me.To make peace I will be the one to 'walk away' as he advised others to do involved in a conflict, but seems to be his advice for others only. •smedleyΔbutler• 16:57, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

Post some diffs, or stop making the accusations. I have stopped editing nearly ALL articles, because of you. My contributions are now limited to fighting blatant vandalism, and participating in discussion. - Crockspot 17:04, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

Now your problems are all my fault?! Go edit any article you want. I think maybe Beauchamp. I'll give you all the distance you want and avoid conflicting with you to show my 'good faith'. I do not have time for any 'diffs' until tonight, and would rather edit articles than fight on complaint boards anyway. •smedleyΔbutler• 17:16, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

I don't know if this adds anything, but add me to the list of folks whose assumptions of good faith in Bmedley have been crushed and who now support more decisive action. Most posts I've seen by Bmedley have little to do with the article in question and are either loosely related ideological harangues, far-fetched accusations of being personally attacked, or, most commonly, personal attacks (as delineated by WP:NPA). When his/her behavior is pointed out, he/she either ignores it or has a defense such as misunderstanding the English language ("playing stupid" as Pablo puts it) or saying that being gay means that rules against homophobic personal attacks don't apply to him/her. I do not know about the behavior of anyone else here, but I have seen Bmedley's behavior, and agree with the well-put conclusions of users like RxS and Raymond Arritt. Bmedley clearly has no respect for Wikipedia policies and guidelines, nor for the purpose of the project. Wikipedia is not a soapbox and discussion board for venting against, attacking, or libeling your ideological opponents. Even setting aside attacks and other subjectively judged actions, Bmedley has explicitly stated that he hopes to use Wikipedia to "focus on outing gay conservatives." His/Her admitted motives for being here are just as damning as his/her daily violations of Wikipedia policies and guidelines. Calbaer 17:47, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

I do not think rolling 'all this' (whatever it is) into SevenOfDiamonds' arbitration would be useful. Thatcher's idea for an RfC is my first choice; very close second is an immediate long block. If no change in behavior shows Bmedley Sutler is here to advance the project, I would support an indefinite block. Tom Harrison ^Talk 17:49, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

I might as well chime in here. I have sympathy for Bmedley, although I agree that he has made mistakes and we want certain behaviors to change. I disagree with blocking. Also a Rfc will just produce more talking. I think we've had more than enough of that. What Bmedley could use is mentoring. Give him someone dedicated, that he trusts and likes, and let him have a mentor here. The mentor should have credibilty so that when others come around to bait him, the mentor can have such others users sanctioned and stop them in their tracks. We have to remember that when Bmeley a new editor, he started to get attacked by a group of right wing editors who did not always play nice. Bmedley's behavior now is a direct response, a reaction, to these past incidents with the same folks who have harassed SevenOfDiamonds. Not everyone can take that the same way, or knows how to best respond. Some people respond by fighting back, and becoming embattled, etc. So, Smedley is really as much a victim here as is Wikipedia, and no one is free of some degree of fault, either by direct misbehavior, or be lack of taking action. The Arbcom case will hopefully solve some of the problems that lead to these political "battle ground' problems, but until then, perhaps a very old fashioned technique that is used on elementary school playgrounds will work, in conjunction with a mentor being asigned, along the lines of avoidance: you to to this side of the playground, and you go to the other side. Both sides avoid each other. Each side do not report anyone from the other side. Don't talk to each other. If you are both editing on the same article, one of you has to move on to another article. No wikistalking, no interaction, disengage, de-esclate, forget and forgive. If the other side continues as well (my main problem here is that this is all one-sided---its not just Bmeldely, there are two sides here)--then the mentor can report this with sanctions going against the other party for not disengaging.Giovanni33 20:26, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

Well, Smedley's first edit outside of his user space was to make a beeline for one of the most contentious fights going on at Wikipedia at the time. I also notice that he does not seem to have any trouble with the English language in that comment. - Crockspot 21:14, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

I suggest that you follow the advice from several administrators that you stop the un-related accusations and charges that have nothing to do with your primary charge that I am 'attacking' you. Please make a formal complaint about these accustations if you think you 'have' something. Another empty RFCU could be good. I agreed to give you distance. Im sorry if your feelings were hurt. Its time to move on. •smedleyΔbutler• 21:32, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

I suggest you stop making comments like "another failed RFCU", when I have never filed an RFCU on you. Again, you are blaming me for the actions of others. - Crockspot 22:59, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

Comment: Blocks are prentitive not punative. I 100% agree to leave Crockspot alone, so there is no need for any block. Not 5 minutes. You can set an action that the next time I 'attack' him I could receive a block. I actually have very few warnings. Look at my page. I bring up the differnce in treatment of a well-known RW editor Bellowed, and me. Take a look at his NPAs and mine. No offense but the cards are stacked around here. If you're a RW editor who thinks the USA and Bush does no wrong, you do have a much easier time here. This is fact. This should end. Back to the subject. I 100% agree to avoid 'attacking' Crockspot. I will edit different articles than him. There is no need for any block at all. I'll go back to my Big Sur articles too, where I made a lot of contributions that show that I have the good of the project in my heart, not some agenda. And for Calbear I explain that I have many 'agendas' not one. Making the Big Sur articles better is my most important agenda. Making sure that other articles are not "White Washed" is another. Thank you for your time. •smedleyΔbutler• 21:19, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

I think this speaks for itself, but I will say that throwing around terms like "RW", "squashed" "White Washed" underscores my feeling that his behavioral issues will continue. He has promised to cool the rhetoric before but it continues even while a block is discussed. In my opinion an RFC would not be effective (most are not, this case isn't an exception) and would make this burn hotter. I still would suggest a longer block at this point in time. RxS 21:48, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

Those arent attacks, and I will point to some adminstrators discussing hot issues like SlimVirgin who use much more rhetoric than that above. Some are more equal than others. •smedleyΔbutler• 21:59, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

I would like to point out to those who charge that I never assumed good faith on Bmedley's part that I worked with him on his first article creation, Deetjen's Big Sur Inn. We even chatted a bit about Big Sur outside of the article and talk page. Some of the best sources in that article are one's that I found and included. This was just weeks before my RfA, and I don't remember having any conflicts with him between that time and the moment he torpedoed my RfA. I have no more good faith left for him. He used it all up. - Crockspot 22:56, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

I never claimed Bmedley Sutler had a single agenda, just that he/she hoped to, using his/her words, "focus on [using Wikipedia to the ends of] outing gay conservatives." This agenda is further evidenced by the user's glee in reporting any homosexual activity regarding conservatives, no matter how irrelevant it is to the dialogue at question. (What does Larry Craig, whom I'd never heard of before today, have to do with whether this user should be banned or mentored? Nothing.) Likewise, RxS didn't say that Bmedley Sutler's language in the paragraph above denoted an "attack," but rather heated rhetoric. The fact that Bmedley Sutler is continually reminded, through words and actions, of the proper purposes, guidelines, and policies of Wikipedia, yet chooses to ignore them, makes me think that mentoring would be useless in and of itself. It might, however, be useful in having someone who is allied with his ideological positions being forced to choose between defending violations of policies or, more likely, confirm that Bmedley Sutler's actions are both incorrigible and unacceptable to users of any ideological stripe. Calbaer 23:02, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

Crockspot, now you are bringing up the issue you don't want discussed again! You made those comments on that other site. Someone pointed them to me. I felt that for the good of The Project (Wiki) that they should be discussed here in the election. I now know that that person maybe did not have the good of the project (Wiki) in his heart when he told me of them. That doesnt change the comments. I didnt have anything personal against you. Thank you for helping on the Deetjen's article. Guess what? If my mother had made those same comments it would still be my duty to report them. (Unrelated) Like the soldier who reported Abu Gharib. He did the right thing, and now has to hide and change his name and is under protection from all the death threats.•smedleyΔbutler• 23:15, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

Crockspot, what articles are you 'not editing' because of my actions? Just name them and I will leave to let you edit and only add my posts if theres a request for votes on something. This is how far I am willing to go to make accomadations for you. What articles? Beauchamp Im sure. Matt Drudge? Matt Sanchez? Pick 5. •smedleyΔbutler• 23:32, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

I don't even know who Matt Sanchez is. - Crockspot 23:40, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

Really? You commented (I think) about his claims on the Beauchamp article. He is well discussed there and posts there. Which articles have my actions prevented you from editing? Just name them and I will give you them. This is a solution, unless (no attack meant) what you want isnt really a solution but a banning or long block of another leftist editor for your group that you deny your part of. (no offense) •smedleyΔbutler• 23:54, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

Calbear: You know Im a male. An out Gay male. A Gay activist Gay male. You know that 100% certainly. We discussed it at long. Calling me 'he/she' (transgender or transvestite) is a 100% unnacceptable insult on my sexuality and you know it, especially after you accusing me of calling you Gay when I never did such a thing! •smedleyΔbutler• 23:44, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

You told me you were gay. I do not recall your telling me your gender. I have had female friends refer to themselves as "gay" (which is much easier to say than "LGBT"), so I did not want to presume that you were necessarily male. "He/she" is not a knock on your gender, but rather a reflection of my ignorance of it (and a reflection of my getting tired of writing "he or she" and/or "this user" over and over again). Now I know and will, if necessary, refer to you as "he" or "him." Calbaer 23:58, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

Bmedley, your sexual preferences are irrelevant. Please don't try to change the subject. No one has taken any pot shots at your sexual orientation. Pablo Talk | Contributions 00:22, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

I blocked Bredley for a week for disruption here and per community concensus, I also recommend that if he goes back to his trolling ways after the block, a community ban maybe in order. Thanks Jaranda ^{wat's sup} 00:29, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

Support for that. In light of BMedley's rules-lawyering 'blocks are preventative not punative and I won't do it again', and other such things, and a few strawmen/red herrings, instead of just getting down to brass tacks, I can't see anything but to do this. ThuranX 03:54, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

Also support. The foregoing discussion is a microcosm of the "Bmedley issue": he shifted the topic away from his actions and toward the Great Struggle between left and right wing politics. And as usual other editors fell for it like a ton of bricks. I thank User:Jaranda for cutting through the fog and getting back to the issue at hand. Raymond Arritt 06:52, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

I support the block because of the following quote: "It guess hiding well known conservatives homosexuality is more your liking. I read that vandal patrol is the best way to worm into administratorship." This does not indicate acceptance of the consensus approach. Eiler7 13:57, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

• I don't know about Bmedley's other activities, since I'd never taken much note of him until a few days ago, but he did have one of the better responses to the whole Michael Moore kerfluffle: He emailed Moore and asked him to take the links down, which was ultimately more helpful and constructive than a lot of people's actions (my own included). -Hit bull, win steak^(Moo!) 13:21, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

I don't think this user will ever learn that Wikipedia is not a battleground for agendas. See this edit made during his block.--Jersey Devil 03:51, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

Technically, should that be oversighted, since the lyrics are a copyvio? -Hit bull, win steak^(Moo!) 14:40, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

This guy looks more like FAAFA with every edit. FAAFA was prone to the same kind of amusing tirades against whatever his political target of the week was... - Merzbow 16:50, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Hakozen (2nd)

The user just came back from his second block and made a request to 50+ users something in Turkish [28]. One of them SONSAVASCI has responded and is reverting articles in favor or Hakozen[29]. I warned him to stop it, I got this uncivil comment back [30] --VartanM 03:15, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

• I think I figured it out...might have something to do with those versions mentioning the "Armenian Genocide." I will revert and leave a note. Edit: I left a note on both SONVASASCI's and Hakozen's talk page because Hakozen immediately made this edit after the talk page requests (it once more is a removal about the Armenian Genocide).¤~Persian Poet Gal ^(talk) 03:44, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

Yes, it definitely does. Since he decided to write in Turkish, I can't read it -- but it definitely mentions "Armenian" and in a non-supportive manner, from my machine translation. This user is getting out of control; at this point, I'm supportive of a long block until he realizes his conduct is unacceptable. --Haemo 03:51, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

Can someone who speaks Turkish provide a translation? If the message is to the effect of "go forth and push POV", I also support a lengthy block of Hakozen (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · block user · block log). Sandstein 05:43, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

It certaintly looks to be [31]. Not quite an accurate translation, but it's quite blatantly obvious he's asking people to unite together to do something, as the translation says something along the lines that the more people involved and the more organized they are, the more powerful they are. I would support an indefinite block for Hakozen just for being so blatantly disruptive, and reverting all of the user's edits. We really shouldn't deal with this sort of POV pushing crap and should nip it in the bud. The same for Sonsavasci as this looks to be a simple case of meatpuppetry. Cowman109^Talk 05:49, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

Looks like Agenda warring. I see violations of CANVAS, NPOV, CIVIL, and NPA, just in the above set of links. That's enough for a VERY long block for Hakozen. Choosing to be a meatpuppet means a good long block for SONSAVASCI as well. Any OTHER editors who 'pick up the torch' should also suffer equal blocks, if not harsher in light of the response to the first one. ThuranX 06:00, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

Looks like Ryulong blocked him and started reverting his canvassing, so I guess that settles that. What about SONSAVASCI, though? I'm hesitant to block him immediately as he's not the one calling for an all out war on editing.. Cowman109^Talk 06:01, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

(undent) Bluntly, what about it? 'Just followin orders' isn't really ever a great excuse for doing what you know is wrong. I'd say a week to prevent him from' caryying on in the face of anti-turkish sentiment' or some other rationalization he might concoct to validate his actions. ThuranX 06:14, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

Has SONSAVASCI been editing in response to the message, or not? If they are continuing to edit as previously - which may or may not appear sympathetic to the content of the message - then they should not be blocked. While "following orders" is no reason to avoid a block, "receiving orders" is no reason to apply one. LessHeard vanU 13:00, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

Lol, I'm not Hakozen (2nd). Wikipedia is a "free encylopedia" and I am free to make changes on it. If you want your pages to be not editable, then use a free BLOG. I didn't violate 3RR or any other rules, not yet.... Requesting for 1 week block? LOL... There are things you really need to learn about wikipedia... I am working on a subpage about my recent reverts, which I prefer to call, reverting the sneaky vandalism. --SONSAVASCI 11:29, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

Is this where I can say "I told you so"? Corvus cornix 15:33, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

Only if you're willing to make it a duet. Block SONSAVASCI for his lousy anti-consensus attitude and hostile essay which attempts to incriminate ALL editors as vandals for maintaining watchlists and keeping an eye on 'our ' (no WP:OWN implied) articles. ThuranX 19:30, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

I consider this subpage created by SONSAVASCI a personal attack against me, since I was the one who reported his behavior. Here is a quote from the essay "they are so sneaky that, after you reverted the sneaky vandalism they call you Vandal and ask Admins to punish you." I never called him vandal, was I wrong to report him? VartanM 23:58, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

It's not an attack, per se, but it's definitely hostile to editors throughout the project. I'd appreciate an Admin reviewing said page, and the above material, for examination of whether a block is appropriate. Unfortunately, this thread went stale for a bit, so the delay may apply as well. ThuranX 17:56, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

I think blocking the user right now would be unnecessary. Keeping an eye on these activities of course is warranted, but as I posted on Ryulong's talk page in response to a user questioning Hazoken's block, that's not really the issue. The issue is that Wikipedia is not a battleground, and allowing users to foster this idiotic neverending Turkish vs Armenian dispute will bring needless disruption, and making it clear that users who wish to foster such an environment are unwelcome is a necessity, at least. But talking of course comes before blocking unless it's an extreme case. Cowman109^Talk 18:28, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Disruptive user

User:M.V.E.i., who has a history of edit warring[32], POV pushing and incivility [33], blocks[34], and sockpuppetry to avoid said block [35], has been leaving a series of unhelpful, potentially attacking comments at AfD[36][37][38][39][40][41] to make a WP:POINT. Normally I wouldn't bring it here, but the user's history gave me pause. Eliz81^{(talk)(contribs)} 07:05, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

Having blocked M.V.E.i. before, a quick look over those diffs doesn't suggest any action needs to be taken at this time. The AFD comments are indeed useless, but the closing admin for each discussion will judge them on their value. Neil ム 09:55, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

Myself and several others have offered some AfDs tips to the user in question and he seems to be making some effort to expand on his reasoning: [42]. Maybe suggesting adopt-a-user would be helpful here? That program has been great for me so far! :) Best and I hope that helps! Sincerely, --Le Grand Roi des Citrouilles^Tally-ho! 15:21, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

For what it's worth, there are many other edits I didn't provide as diffs... this is between 20 and 30 separate AfDs[43]. I was under the impression that's disruptive. Eliz81^{(talk)(contribs)} 15:24, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

I agree with Neil's assessment. Useless may these comments be, but certainly not attacking.

Furthermore, while it's true that M.V.E.i. has a checkered past, he has also shown considerable improvement -- which is more than can be said about some other trolls.

Eliz81: my understanding is that M.V.E.i. has trouble understanding the concept of notability, and, having suffered from a significant number of his articles getting deleted on notability grounds, does not really know what to do about it. The obvious solution would be carefully explaining the significance *and meaning* of notability to him, so more of his future contributions could stand. Digwuren 15:43, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

First of all, for what i've done i already was blocked (I dont agree with those blocks, but nevertheless if you would check my history i became more "polite"). Second, i dont see anything wrong in what i've said. "Keep. Thats it", it means i have nothing special to say, it means "no comment" but i'm not shure my speling in this word is correct so i write "thats it". I like the article, or i see potential of it becoming bigger, so i vote to keep it. And i really belive that if a user has a problem with an article lacking references, instead of blindely nominating it for deletion he should not be lazy (because it's the easiest thing, nominate for deletion) but search for the references himself, and only then if he finds there are no references and it all might be a "hoax" or something like that, nominating for deletion. When i get to an article which lacks references but i really like, i go and find them myself (Google helps alot here). If the article is not something that i care about and lacks references and i dont feel like searching for some, i just keep my mouth shut and move on. I just know how hard it might be to write an article, and when i see a good article that someone worked hard on but didn't know how to insert references nominated for deletion, that makes me sad and i'm like, help him, explain him, nominating for deletion it's the easiest thing to do. Third, I think the same thing about nominating someone for blocking, i mean, talk to him ask him and only then decide. You say i'm "disturbful" or something like that, did you see my contribution page before you said that? Did you read the articles i've created? Theres a person behind the user-name it's not just a game to nominate for blocking. I didn't use dirty language i dont see where i said something that i should be blocked for. And you didn't even told me you nominated me for blocking, and that's definitely not responsible, i was told by another user. M.V.E.i. 15:53, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

I never said you should be blocked, nor did I say you used dirty language. I was merely reporting here that I believed you were disrupting AfD. I do apologize for not informing you of this thread. I appreciate your efforts finding references to save articles, but your keep votes telling other people to find references are a little patronizing, as it assumes that no one else has made the effort. When I say 'unreferenced' or 'no references', I personally mean that I've already scoured Google for them. Why are you assuming that other people haven't done their homework and their delete votes or AfD nominations are lazy? But, I'm glad other editors are working with you on this. Eliz81^{(talk)(contribs)} 16:31, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

Most dont do this, belive me. There was a case 3 of my articles were deleted at once as "not notable". Those were articles of 3 bands that every Russian knows, 3 of the most importent in Russian rock. Eventually a Russian honest administrator restored the 3 of them explaining they were notable, and made the Google check to prove that. The thing is i didn't know the importence of references and thats why i didnt give them at the time, after i learned these i added the references. I dont vote on every article, but when i see someone puted his soul into it, made something he could be proud of, and it's nominated, it's kind-off a gentle spot. M.V.E.i. 16:41, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

Just because you had one experience where somebody doesn't look for sources before proposing a deletion doesn't mean everybody who nominates an article for deletion does this. Whenever I am thinking of putting an article up for deletion, my first instinct to do a Google search to see if there are any reliable sources that have covered the subject. Most people who are experienced enough to go through the AfD process know to search for reliable sources before stating that as a reason to delete. Your attitude that anybody who says there isn't any sources for an AfD'd subject didn't look for them borders on assuming bad faith and isn't good wikiquette. NeoChaosX (talk, walk) 19:40, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

Not that this will help MVEi, but I have often found that when people at AfDs on Russian, Ukrainian, Serbian, Bulgarian ... subjects say "delete, not notable: only 33 googles" the problem is that they haven't googled for alternative Romanized versionsd of the name. It is always a good idea to copy paste the Cyrillic version in the Google window. Someone like Makpal Isabekova should never have been the object of an Afd, and it ended in no consensus, as I was unable to persuade some diehards that they were using an argumentum ad googlum. On the other hand, some Russian names may be so widespread that you need to add the patronymic to make sure you do not OVERestimate the google result for an individual, and most Westerners do not know that either. (So, cultural bias may work both ways here.) Now if that is contrary to WP:AGF, sorry, but in many instances my attitude has been proven to be correct.--Pan Gerwazy 11:07, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Improper use of this board

Comment: as we speak I am in the content conflict with MVEi and I am not thrilled, I must say, by his stubborness. But, somehow, it does not cross my mind to drag him here, start a bashing thread titled "Disruptive user", like this one, or ask others to intervene. He is an opinionated but well-intentioned and committed editor. His demeanor improved a great deal, his English even is getting better (not that mine is very good.) His explanations about his AfD votes seem sensible even if he is wrong. The deletion of his articles he talks about was an outright example of what went wrong with Wikipedia.

If Eliz is unhappy about something and there seems to be no emergency here whatsoever, Eliz should have taken it directly to MVEi first. Instead, Eliz pulls it all here, makes others waste time while there are some serious and unresolved issues that demand admin attention, like appalling backlog on several tasks. Especially, titling this thread as it was done goes beyond pale.

In short, this board is too often abused in attempts to short-circuit different disagreement and "win" them by an easy workaround. This board's regulars should discourage such forum shopping by showing such threads a door instead of developing them. --Irpen 21:46, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

Good idea. Let's start from you trying to "win" an argument with Eliz81 by an easy workaround! Digwuren 22:54, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

I have no argument with Eliz. I never met this user. Please stop harassing me. --Irpen 22:58, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

Actually, Irpen is completely right in what he said actually. I also said that Eliz didn't notify me that he opened the issue here. The lable disruptive user is very dengerous. M.V.E.i. 11:11, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

Irpen, I assure you my starting this thread was not with the intent of bashing anyone or forum shopping, but with a concern about a rash of 20-30 posts made within a short period of time. I came here in good faith after seeing the issue had already been broached on MVEi's talk page, and spoke with an admin before posting, to make sure I was in fact in the correct forum for raising the issue. Eliz81^{(talk)(contribs)} 23:34, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

But it was my first 20-30 posts here, and that might explain my mistake. My problem wad not with you opening the issue, but with you not notifying me and labeling me a "disruptive user" by that mistake of mine. M.V.E.i. 11:11, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

Well, dragging someone to this board and titling the thread "disruptive user" implies that some big misconduct is being involved. Not that such threads should never be started. Some users' activities deserve being dragged here. The point is to be reasonable in deciding whether the user's activity is so problematic as to warrant giving him certain notoriety by dragging the user to this board. Not a single observer who commented above saw a need of sanctioning MVEi for the purported "disruption". So, at very least you misjudged the issue here. --Irpen 00:53, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

No, she didn't. She operated within the bounds of limited knowledge, and found it appropriate to bring the issue to wider discussion. The wider discussion, considering finer points of data, found that no administrative intervention is appropriate at this time. Your campaign to selectively harass people over disagreements with your protégés (as you also did in User talk:ProhibitOnions#Accusations of WP:SYNTH and WP:OR over RJ CG) is reprehensible. Digwuren 11:34, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

I do not see comments on AfDs, like Keep, that is as helpful. In fact such comments have little weight or no weight at all on the result of closing of the AfDs. Our admins are usually not stupid. On the other hand, I do not see here disruptions worth administrative actions. Such a discussion on the user's talk page or even on the AfD itself would be of more help , IMHO. Alex Bakharev 02:33, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

Actually we have a discussion there and i was explained alot on the issue. The thing is, i thought it's a vote and i didn't see why arguments are needed. Later i was explained more about it. M.V.E.i. 11:11, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

Thanks to everyone who has commented on this thread. I want to (re?)make my position clear.

1. I saw a user make 20-30 AfD edits in a short period of time, and appeared to be disrupting the process to make a WP:POINT about delete !voters and AfD nominators being lazy and incompetent. I considered this a personal attack on the nominators and fellow AfD participants. 2. I looked through the user's talk pages and saw a long history of admin issues. 3. I consulted with an administrator and given the user's history, decided to bring the issue to ANI. 4. The people who have stayed on topic seem to think no intervention is needed at this time. This is FINE. Not every issue brought here will result in an admin action. My main concern is that Wikipedia function well. It looks like MVEi is getting help, and that's great. 5. I understand that some people think this was an issue best left to talk pages. I didn't. We'll just have to agree to disagree. Eliz81^{(talk)(contribs)} 15:40, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Purple Hearts

[edit] Seems ridiculous

I find this whole thread incredulous. Sigh...

"Any false verbal, written or physical claim..."

False claim? OMG! Do people really have nothing better to do with their time?

For the record, I never really enjoyed being awarded this as a wikimedal and never moved it to my user page. I did not want to reject it as to offend the awarding user either, so I just did not act on it.

But I am still amazed that this issue was seriously discussed here from this particular angle. Oh, and I won't be keeping it at my talk page if this is what makes users uncomfortable. Just sharing my being bemused by this whole development. --Irpen 21:12, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

At the risk of going to jail for a year and a $10,000 fine, your free to readd it :) — Moe ε 22:10, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

I hope you are joking. --Irpen 22:14, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

Note the smiley, which is now frowning :( — Moe ε 07:24, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Arto Tunçboyacıyan

Last time I checked this image had a license this user has deleted many pictures without any mention or talk, to even the uploader [44] --Vonones 13:08, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

The image was uploaded with the tag {{Somewebsite}} by User:Armatura on the 27th January. This was changed the next day to {{PD-self}} by User:Artaxiad. There is no explanation on the page as to why he did that. I'll take a look. Theresa Knott | The otter sank 19:02, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

Turns out he is a banned user. Theresa Knott | The otter sank 19:04, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

OK I've checked through both [User:Armatura|]] and Artaxiads contributions and can find no evidence of them talking to each other at that time. In the light of this I see no reason to trust that this photo is really public domain and support the deletion. Theresa Knott | The otter sank 19:20, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] User:Movieguy999

On the Star Wars Episode I: The Phantom Menace, Star Wars Episode II: Attack of the Clones and Star Wars Episode III: Revenge of the Sith, Movieguy999, who is completely ignoring consensus made on the talk pages of these articles, has been repeatedly removing well-cited material. While I have tried to stop it, he has, once again, removed the well-cited material. He has said in his most recent comment on Talk:Star Wars Episode III: Revenge of the Sith#My problems with this article that he had made attempts at resolving this situation. He has said that the discussion has been completely one-sided. He said that he had made my case, the article clearly has issues, and has said no one has made an attempt to resolve them. He has said that he has given exact details of what is wrong and said that The Filmaker has done nothing but point to other articles and his own fan opinion. I didn't want to break 3RR, for which I made two reverts on TPM, so I had to report this situation here. Greg Jones II 14:50, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

By the way, I have instantly reverted his edits on TPM (second rv) and ROTS (first rv) along with User:EEMeltonIV on AOTC (first rv). Greg Jones II 15:17, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

I am responding to show my support for this. There are problems with these articles and I would be interested in having an impartial mediator come in on this. There are several users who safe-guard these articles, who have close ties to admin's (which can be substantiated by checking their talk pages).

These users communicate through their talk pages with these admins, then they bait the user into breaking the 3rr rule so that they can have them banned. The user then goes away and the article squatters get their way. This can again all be substantiated by checking their talk pages.

The biggest issue is their citing of sources simply to give their fan opinion credibility. It's easy to find a rotten review on the internet and then use that as a source for saying "Most people thought this or that..."

The article has many weasel words. Directly from the WP:Weasel Words page, words such as "critics say..." and "some argue that...", are known in Wikipedia as Weasel words.

Yet, here they are in these articles. I've tried to remove them and been met with extreme resistence. You can see from the discussion pages of this article that I have made many attempts to resolve the situation and I have gone into detail as to what problems are there, but had little discussion. Even the user who is reporting this has done nothing but revert my edits.

Movieguy999 —Preceding unsigned comment added by Movieguy999 (talk • contribs) 15:24, August 29, 2007 (UTC)

I am not a liar. I have done many things other than revert your edits (I am not your servant, nor are you an administrator). Your keeping on removing the well-cited information is definitely not appreciated, so we need some help resolving this situation. Greg Jones II 15:30, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

I apologize for my angry replies towards Movieguy999 if I got upset, but we need this situation resolved. Greg Jones II 15:33, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

I have now contacted The Filmaker and EEMelton IV about this situation. Greg Jones II 17:06, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

I have blocked Movieguy999 for 24 hours for violating WP:3RR on Star Wars Episode I: The Phantom Menace. --Hemlock Martinis 18:08, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

I reviewed TPM. I examined the diff between the two versions, and found ONE change I argeed with Movieguy999 about. I reverted that singular piece, and put why on the talk page. As to the general behavior, he's not listening, but you aren't talking enough either. be clear about your defenses of the current writing, and why change is not needed. A well worded response to the issues means having a defense at the ready next time, and you can link to the archive and be done with it. Finally, I suggested a comparison of the current state of the article to it's FA Article status version, and examination of the differences and building new consensus from there if needed. ThuranX 19:38, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Accusation of anti-semitism and terrorism

I opened an AfD on an article related to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict here; then User:EAEB voted "Strong Keep This AFD is obviously based on anti-semetic and anti-zionist POV." I demanded a retraction on the AfD and posted a {{uw-npa3}} on EAEB's talk page. His response: "Why should I? Are you going to suicide bomb my house?" and (partially) "Your own comments clearly demonstrate your anti-semetic motives". I request whatever administrator action is considered appropriate in such cases. Eleland 14:56, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

I don't really think action is needed... your demand of a retraction was worded such that it only really served to escalate things, as does templating people in a situation like this. His reply was over the top though... everyone just needs to tone it down. --W.marsh 15:39, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

You couldn't have said that before I warned him to tone it down and focus on the content of a debate rather than a user, or risk being blocked? ;o) Resolute 15:41, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

Have we really reached the point where an apparently good-faith AfD nom is enough to accuse an editor of anti-Semitism and anti-Zionism? Personally, I'm becoming of the opinion that we should be quicker to hand out blocks all around, on any side, to editors who clearly view Wikipedia as a battlefield. Such blocks would be preventive in the truest sense of the word, and possibly lessen the load on ArbCom down the line. MastCell ^Talk 18:12, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

(refactored to colons not asterisks). I'm with Mastcell. a crackdown on the agenda warrior battlefield editors would do a lot. There are cases, however, where the 'battlefield' comparison doesn't work, so there are times where we still need to be conscientious of what is and isn't a good case for this crackdown, but I'd support a general move to 'intolerance of intolerance'. ThuranX 18:27, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

Having cooled down a bit, I acknowledge that I could have handled the situation a little bit better, however, I am still upset at being told that "everyone just needs to tone it down." I find this a disturbingly equivocal approach; can we acknowledge that saying "retract your accusation" instead of "please retract your implication" is in no way comparable to making scatter-shot claims of anti-Semitism because you don't agree with a proposal? Eleland 22:21, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] How much grace do we give?

We have a user who is making a mess of the articles. He has been making edits such as adding parameters twice to infoboxes, ignoring project standards, using unreliable sources, etc. We have tried several times to communicate with him but he does not understand English well enough to understand what we are saying. What do we do? I assume we can't block him... but it is getting bad. We can't check every single edit this guy makes due to time, although we practically have to... --Rschen7754 (talk - contribs) 18:43, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

Who? Diffs? Details? thanks. ThuranX 19:39, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

User:Freewayguy. We have edits like this [45] where he drops a parameter needed. We have [46], a messed up infobox with parameters being used twice, extra parameters being used, a link to California State Highway 11 that is unrelated to the subject, etc. This user is unsure of what he is doing and making messes of articles that we have to clean up. It is getting to the point where we have to check every edit he makes. Problem is, that is a waste of our time when we have other tasks at WP:USRD needing to be done.. --Rschen7754 (talk - contribs) 19:51, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

And his "blocking" someone [47] and random mumblings [48]. --Rschen7754 (talk - contribs) 20:02, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

If he doesn't respond to english, and is harming the project, it can be considered disruption. I've seen editors blocked before for repeated good-faith edits that do nothing but worsen article quality because they don't speak english. Maybe this needs an official policy somewhere? --lucid 09:00, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

Indeed. While newcomers are all welcomed, i think that it should be remembered that the English Wikipeida is the English Wikipedia, and one should at least be able to respond to posts made in English. -- Anonymous Dissident^Talk 09:08, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

He also seems to be a high school student, and only 16. This is not an excuse; I know people who were published novelists at 16, but since he seems to have been in the US since he was under a year old, I think it's just the inability of some teenagers to write coherently yet, not an ESL language issue. --Thespian 09:12, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Bot being disruptive, owner not responding to the criticism.

Please see Wikipedia talk:Bot policy#ImageRemovalBot problem - User:ImageRemovalBot is still having problems with galleries as raised weeks ago (see this edit for an example of the problems caused where it outright removed their second album "Madonna"), yet the owner doesn't want to do anything about it (as you can see by his responses to me on User talk:Carnildo and the original bot policy discussion), citing that fair use in band galleries is more important than the actual accuracy - something I strongly disagree with. May I propose that the bot be blocked until it the problem is fixed and can deal with these galleries more transparently by removing the images without breaking their content? There's no doubt it's disruptive. Thanks. -81.178.126.124 19:08, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

Have you raised the issue at The bot owners noticeboard? --SXT4 20:35, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

No, but it's already been raised in three places, to the bot owner himself directly, the bot's talk page and the Bot policy noticeboard, is a third really required? Particularly as Wikipedia:Bot Policy suggests "If you spot a problem or have a complaint about a specific bot, take your query to the bot operator's talk page. If you think the problem is serious and would like greater input, leave a short note at Wikipedia talk:Bots pointing to the discussion at the operator's talk page. An admin can block on sight any bot that appears to be out of control." -81.178.126.124 20:51, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

I've put a remark on WP:BOWN linking to here. I think that this counts as WP:BOT: "Sysops should block bots, without hesitation, [...] doing something the operator did not say they would do, messing up articles". Why hasn't there been a response? How much bureaucracy is there on Wikipedia?!? All I want to do is stop a broken bot until it's fixed, and to do that I have to post on 4 pages! -81.178.126.124 20:57, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

First, this isn't "breaking" things - had you posted an explanation to Carnildo's talk page, he could have looked in to it. What you did was shut off the bot, just like it says in a bright yellow warning on the page you actually posted to. Try having civil discussion next time and a little patience. Shell ^babelfish 21:04, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

Yes, it is. To quote User talk:ImageRemovalBot "If the bot is malfunctioning", the bot was malfunctioning so I posted an explanation to User talk:ImageRemovalBot, the owner deleted it without replying to me. On contacting him again on his talk page to see if it was fixed, he pointed me towards policy that didn't address the problem at hand at all. Upon checking Wikipedia talk:Bot policy, it was already reported there (see Wikipedia talk:Bot policy#ImageRemovalBot problem), but not fixed from over 2 weeks ago and that the bot owner "doesn't see it as an issue". Why are you continuing to let this bot, which is known to create problematic unintentional edits, continue to edit? And why are you accusing me of doing things wrong when I've pursued every avenue to get this sorted?!? Are you saying removing albums from a band's discography, making it misleading, is a good thing and isn't broken functionality?!? Block this broken bot. -81.178.126.124 21:14, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

If you're using a gallery to make a discography, that would be your first issue. Notice how my more polite request on the talk page got an answer? This isn't broken, there is no reason to leave an image caption in a gallery when the image has been deleted. Shell ^babelfish 22:21, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

I understand using a gallery to make a discography is frowned on (I didn't create it, just noticed it was wrong!), but it's replaced with something that is outright incorrect by removing the album entirely. It's fundamentally broken functionality. -81.178.126.124 23:23, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

I disagree and so have others; the reason you've had to take this so many places is because you aren't getting the answer you want. By the way, starting an MfD on my userspace header because you didn't like my opinion wasn't the best of ideas. Shell ^babelfish 23:27, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Minesweeper (computer game) edit war

Assuming it's my fault, this is the revert that marks the start of the edit war. [49]

I can't see any reason - other than WP:COI - why User:88.82.46.193 should be so insistent that the illustrations for this article must be screenshots from KMines, rather than the previously-used generic images (produced by another editor in order to resolve a dispute that led to an RfC).

I've attempted to discuss the matter but I can't get any response beyond shifting the burden of proof onto the creator of the original images and an edit comment mentioning "undew wait".

If the consensus is that we're both guilty of edit warring, go ahead and ban us both for a while. I'll take a short wikibreak if that's judged to be necessary. Sheffield Steel^talkers_stalkers 19:10, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

Note that the edit war has spread to the images themselves: [50] Sheffield Steel^talkers_stalkers 19:14, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

Your oversimplify and extrapolate.Mister rodrigo camargo has lied."I can't see any reason - other than WP:COI" well apparently you lack imagination,what can i say.He said that he made them manually,there is evidence that this is not the case.I didn't shift the burden of prouf on him,i just asked why it was only up too me to prouve that they are screenshots,as your question implied.You actually didn't say anything on the questions that i asked.Also,puting only your side of the story,behind my back, here ,isn't very nice.--88.82.46.193 19:29, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

the IP editor is clearly shifting the burden of proof to others. I can't see any reason to put the IP's favored program up. I also wonder why the article reads like a how to manual. ThuranX 19:49, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

This is almost a separate issue, but... This edit[51] and the next six edits in this IP's contribs [52] are all changes to Image pages where s/he changes the comment made by the original image uploader. It feels like some WP law is being broken here, but I don't know what. Sheffield Steel^talkers_stalkers 19:56, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

You've both broken WP:3RR, if I count correctly. I do agree with ThuranX, if someone makes a statement such as "those are screenshots", the burden of proof is on them to show that they are. How is one supposed to prove that they aren't, anyway? You can't prove a negative. --Kbdank71 20:01, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

"The burden of prouf is on them" like the porn images of publicgirl?.--88.82.46.193 20:18, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

For falisfyiing Image pages, I'd support a long (one week?) block on that IP, or article semi-protection, to preclude that IP editing the pages. Or both. ThuranX 20:12, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

I didn't falsify anything.You are going to block an dynamic adress for a week?--88.82.46.193 20:18, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

He was aware of the programme existence before he posted his images here.You can tell because he posted his skins[53].Also he claimed that he made them entirely(including the big 3BV of 59[54]) by hand (with paint)and that "This image is not a screenshot of any program",do you beleave that?If you compare his skins that he posted with the "images",they basacly have a cople of pixels of diference.Someware up in this page he sais that,the images numbers are "a slightly modified version of Fixedsys and MS Sans Serif",why did he do that?Why go the trouble of removing or adding pixels?I can't check but the skins that he posted are they "Fixedsys and MS Sans Serif"?The 1 and 3(the numbers) are basecly his skin numbers minus the fusy part.And why are they exacly the same size?The colors seems identical,are they exactly the same (i mean,by checking the code)?And why he didn't tell us about the program?--88.82.46.193 20:18, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

This one is so ridiculous I think we can prove a negative. The image uploaded to Wikipedia uses solid black lines; Minesweeper .34 uses dashed lines and Minesweeper X uses solid grey lines in the base image and other variations in the skins. The flags are of a different shape than any used by the Minesweepers available at the link you gave. Since the colors used are pure green, blue and red whether or not the are exactly the same is moot. Unless you've got something more, stop being a disruption. Shell ^babelfish 20:24, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

Semi-protected. --Kbdank71 20:30, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

(e/c)I've blocked for 24 hours for now for a now-deleted edit, where 88.82.46.193, posts what he claims to be SheffieldSteel's IP address (personal info he has not chosen to share). Anyone should feel free to extend the block for the disruption to image, etc. Mr.Z-mantalk¢ 20:32, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

Thank you for that. Is it possible to blank that from my User page history? I don't know what my exact IP is but the city was correct. Sheffield Steel^talkers_stalkers 20:38, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

All the fuss was about having images that are not from any program.The uploader said that he made them manually.The spessific program is skinable.Plus i demand that my old ip is unblocked imediatly,i didn't do anything wrong.About,SheffieldSteel's IP i was making a point,about something he said for me to create an account and privacy,just ask him.--88.82.32.78 20:40, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

WP:POINT. --Kbdank71 20:47, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

"All the fuss" meant,why we had an argument from months before.Now,i whant my old ip unblocked.And don't block this one,this is about justice.Can you peopol stop being,so literal,i feel like if i'm writing a program.--88.82.32.78 20:51, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

Yes,i whant a reply,please.--88.82.32.78 21:05, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

I've replaced the images with SVG versions. So problem solved. Feel free to edit the SVG until your heart is content. Theresa Knott | The otter sank 21:46, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] User:Shinealight2007 going on WP:ATTACK spree

Because of rude accusations made against User:Justanother by User:Shinealight2007 here and here, I made a comment at the Wikiquette board about it [55] .

But in the minutes since, User:Shinealight2007 has drastically escalated it, attacking me as well on User talk:Shinealight2007‎ and turning my post at the Wikiquette noticeboard into a soapboxing mess. Someone please have a look. wikipediatrix 21:03, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

I've asked Shinealight2007 to stop. It would probably be best if everyone involved walked away for a bit. Shell ^babelfish 21:08, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

Asking him to stop doesn't make the multiple libelous comments he's made go away. I've seen people blocked for a lot less than this. wikipediatrix 21:11, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

Also, this account's contributions appear indicate this is a sockpuppet of a more experienced user. Blocked for a week for attacks and disruption, meanwhile people are free to investigate who this is a sock of. Sandstein 21:17, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] More Mmbabies junk

Here's the latest on the Mmbabies sock watch (all from today):

• Talk:The Gospel Bill Show
• Believer's Voice of Victory
• SpongeBob SquarePants (think this is a new target)
• Template:Houston TV

IP's used:

• 68.89.172.90

• 68.88.233.133 (This IP was even used to vandalize with a edit summary concealing a death threat to Postoak, a user who has been active in challenging the vandalism).

WAVY 10 21:04, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

Well, he used the first IP I posted today to try to evade a block. I just reverted the edit about a minute ago. WAVY 10 22:45, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

This edit summary deserves a looooong break. Corvus cornix 22:50, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Eva Green spam?

In this edit, Alientraveller (talk · contribs) reinserted a link to a fansite that I had previously removed a couple of times and warned about. Alientraveller's response was "Like I said, this site is an invaluable resource, and has provided me with translations and citations". I'd like another opinion on this. The site is clearly just a fansite. It's better than most, granted, but it's still just a fansite. Worse, it has a number of copyright-violating images, though Alientraveller is not linking to any of them. It has long been standard to remove such fansites from articles. Am I wrong in this case? Did I miss a policy change? --Yamla 22:37, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

Fansites aren't reliable sources and quite often violate copyright. You are correct in removing that link. IrishGuy ^talk 22:47, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

Thanks. --Yamla 22:48, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Obvious copyvio

If you will look at [56], it will be obvious that every picture this user has uploaded is a copyright violation. He has claimed to be the author of them all. I tagged them all, but there's one I couldn't find a URL on: Image:Mrchriscoste.jpg - but this is a really obvious copyvio. Could someone please delete? Thanks. The Evil Spartan 22:46, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

Found it [57]. G12 speedy deleted. -Andrew c ^[talk] 02:14, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] User:Giovanni33 causing problems

- Philippe | Talk 04:59, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

This user has again decided to edit war on Woodrow Wilson over the addition of the Category:Racism. This user edits against consenus and by looking at his block log it is obvious he cannot be WP:CIVIL or compromise. This editor is being disruptive and I think it is time he be blocked indefinitly. His actions are in no way constructive. I think it is obvious that he enjoys to edit war and this is not acceptable.--Southern Texas 23:46, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

Yes. Full disclaimer: I've had issues with this user in the past. That being said, this user is a POV-pusher, and has had problems on a good number of articles. The Evil Spartan 23:49, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

There's an RfC going there which seems to have found a solid consensus. I think an admin could review nad mark this as resolved. ThuranX 04:51, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

Agree. You can add this to the RfC. -- FayssalF - ^{Wiki me up®} 05:55, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Logged out bot still editing

I'm not sure it's a crucial issue (in fact the bot is still doing good work), but User:145.97.39.143, the toolserver, is currently performing bot edits, and has been doing so for about a week, unnoticed. I can't figure this out - I believe it's either an incarnation of User:HermesBot (likely), or a bot maintained by User:ST47. The Evil Spartan 00:17, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

Not mine, looks like hermesbot. --ST47Talk·Desk 00:29, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

99.9% sure it's Hermesbot. Has the operator been notified? --W.marsh 01:42, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

He fixed up some of it a few days ago. I've notified him again. The Evil Spartan 01:44, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

!@#$$^&. I thought it was fixed :/. Hm, well I've been running the image tagging task from my computer with zero problems, and the WP:SCV redlink removal is from the toolserver. The bot seemed to have been logging in for that. I'll pass on the SCV part to cobi to run until it gets ironed out. ~ Wikihermit 02:18, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Crediting Wikipedia

I'd like to be sure I'm properly crediting Wikipedia on my mashable creation wikirage if anyone has the time to review and tell me how I should appropriately cite Wikipedia for this data it would be appreciated w3ace 01:23, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

Looks pretty good, except you'll want to mention GFDL, with a link to the license (preferably locally). The GFDL isn't really picky about that kind of thing (on purpose); as long as you make attribution. The Evil Spartan 02:31, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

That means that he has to remove Copyright 2007 wikirage.com and mention GFDL or keep them both? -- FayssalF - ^{Wiki me up®} 03:47, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

He can have the copyright on his product. GFDL says someone can change our product and copyright that change (think, for example of Red Hat Linux). But he has to mention that the original text is licensed under GFDL. In other words, if he includes only text from Wikipedia, he has to say it's from Wikipedia, and that it's licensed under GFDL. Anything else he can copyright. The Evil Spartan 04:31, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

Claiming copyright on material copied from Wikipedia is copyfraud. He is including summaries of Wikipedia articles on his statistics pages. He could claim fair use, if the quoted material is short. -- Petri Krohn 16:12, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Vandalism to Oakland, California

The optional parameter for nicknames has been repteadedly removed by ILike2BeAnonymous against consensus and established norms for city articles. He has done so under the claim that it needs to be discussed however the discussion died and inclusion of the nickname o-town has a 5 to 2 consensus, Oaktown is not debated at all and "The Town" is still not decided. This is regarding this particular edit here "Remove nickname, which is a bone of contention here, temporarily until resolved. It's STUPID to have it change 15 times a day instead.", and again here "("Vandalism" my ass. This has been discussed ad nauseam on the discussion page.)" and previous edits by an anonymous user immediatly before which I suspect may be from this user aswell here and here without edit summaries. This user has had his removal of the nickname O-town reverted several times by various users here,here,here,[58],here and many many times by me you can that here, his edit summaries are very dude, including this one were he calls everyone or everything stupid four times fast"This is STUPID, STUPID, STUPID, STUPID, STUPID. I'm taking away your toy ("nickname") until y'all stop squabbling over it. Meaningless piece of trivia anyhow ..", there are 8 warnings on his talk page and he is very uncivil as is evident on his talk page, he was recently warned by an administrator for removing the nicknames of Oakland, California and he still insists on doing so, again and again. the discussion on the talk page does not support his edits at all. This editor is just sore because he lost the debate over the inclusion of the nickanmes, the discussion has settled and he now is trying to bypass consensus by removing the nicknames parameter. He is in violation of the 3RR rule i believe, even more so if he is indeed that unregistered IP address. I believe he should be blocked for 72 hours and warned not to do this anymore.Cholga^talK! 01:45, 30 August 2007 (UTC) Please forgive the rather long entry, but considering the editor I believed I should be thouroughCholga^talK! 01:46, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

Summary:Template:Infobox City has a parameter for nicknames. ILike2BeAnonymous disagrees with the nicknames posted in the Infobox City template for the Oakland, California article and has removed both the nicknames and the parameter. They keep getting restored.-- Jreferee ^(Talk) 02:16, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

There's a very simple explanation for this: there is no consensus on these nicknames, despite Cholga's fevered protestations to the contrary. I simply removed this thing that has become a bone of contention because, to put it bluntly, it has started looking extremely stupid to see this aspect of the article changing every 10 minutes. I did this as a temporary stopgap measure. +ILike2BeAnonymous 02:09, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

1. It clearly is improper to remove the parameter in the article space since that is an issue to be addressed at Template:Infobox City. That parameter is to be left in the template on the article. 2. I'll take a look at the article talk page to see if there is consensus on these nicknames. Please leave that parameter in the article as is until the consensus issue is resolved. -- Jreferee ^(Talk) 02:21, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

Dispute resolution that-a-way, guys. If there are any allegations of sockpuppetry (and I note it being used by both of you, shame, shame), please take it here, or here. But there's no reason to be arguing this here. The Evil Spartan 02:27, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

Cholga asked me to comment. Sorry, guys, disculpe me, mis amigos, I ain't gonna. My town is nick'ed Wormtown and other names, but I can't comment on vernacular terms from 3000 miles away. Gonna hafta sort this one out for yourselves, folks, and I love you both anyways. I really hope you can arrive at something that pleases you both, or at least whiffs you off igualmente los ambos. Such is consensus, my friends. __Just plain Bill 02:34, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

I also was asked to comment but I am not involved and have no intentions to be.--Southern Texas 02:51, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

I am quite suprised to see that Cholga thinks I threatened him/her with a 3RR warning. I am merely trying to stop an editwar. Besides, my warning is for both IL2BA and Cholga. Not just aiming at Cholga particularly. Cholga is right for one thing though, IL2BA also has a history of incivility and disruptive editing. As a reminder to all people to comment here, their confrontation stemmed from an earlier argument on the page of Richmond, California. Chris! _{my talk} 04:17, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

I thought you did and I find it very unfair, since I was reverting vandalism, which according to policy is not a violation of the 3RR no matter how many times you do it. He should not remove the parameter for nicknames. It did?? Which areguement is that? I don't deny that Richmond is the location of my first run in with IL2BA but s/he has had run ins with me everywhere I go, to the point that other editors have expressed it seems s/he is following me. This particular series of events is howeber unrelated to that discussion.Cholga^talK! 05:54, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

I was warning both him and you. You two are engaging in an editwar. Now he can argue the same thing about you vandalize the same page. And we are going in circles. Also be careful what you called vandalism. His edit here are not vandalism in my opinion. And remember wikipedia is not a place to hold grudge. What you are doing here violates that. Chris! _{my talk} 06:03, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

Although not explicitly asked to mediate, I just wish to state that as a complete outsider (being British), arguments over such minutiae are completely unnecessary. If the infobox has provision for "nicknames", then so be it. However, it would be a lot better if one could verify the aforementioned information, preferably BEFORE inclusion in the article. Unfortunately, here, I don't think this argument is going to resolve itself easily, but I agree that the said information should be left until final consensus is achieved. Put it to the vote on the article's discussion page. I hope this helps to clarify the situation.Please ignore.--Bulleid Pacific 11:48, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

Cholga has asked me to comment here, so: This is a content dispute. If, during the course of the dispute, rules have been broken, there are specific places to make such complaints. Wikipedia administrators do not determine consensus on content issues, and that seems to be the main request here. --Tango 13:29, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

I was also asked to comment. {{Infobox City}}'s nickname parameter, like all of its parameters with the exception of official name is optional. What is placed inside them is to be decided by the editors of a page. Since I am 2,084 miles from Oakland, I can not offer you any insight on whether O-Town is or is not a local nickname for Oakland. I would suggest that you first stop the revert war. Then, stick with any consensus that is reached on the nicknames at the Oakland talk page and only use the most common/well known of these nicknames (when y'all agree what they are) in the infobox itself. For Detroit, there are many nicknames and in that article only the most common are in the infobox and the local or less common nicknames were placed within the article. I'm not suggesting that that be done for Oakland, only that that has worked for the Detroit article. And for God's sake—be civil. —MJCdetroit 14:48, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Block

[edit] Requesting Another Block or Protection

Hello,

I need another block of a vandalous user or protection of articles he is vandalizing:

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Van_Resistance&action=history http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Battle_of_Van&action=history

This user was last blocked several months ago on this exact same article http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Log&type=block&page=User:OttomanReference

After a lack of editting for some time, he resumed edit warring and doing "original research" and making up dubious citations to support his vandalism. When one checks the citations, they do not actually reflect what it claimed.

For example, he claims there was a battle of Van, yet a review of the source he provided on google books merely shows the town was evacuated and taken by the enemy. This evacuation was a result of consequence of fighting on another sector of the front, but no "battle" ever took place. I kept asking him to provide sources of his claims, be reasonable, but he has continued to vandalize the pages.

Please help.Hetoum I 03:47, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

This looks like a content dispute: are there enough sources for this "Battle of Van" for it to have an article? This board is not for content disputes. Calling someone you have a content dispute with a vandal is uncivil and does not help. If you think there are not enough sources for an article, you can nominate it for deletion at WP:AFD, or ask for third party input at WP:3O. Sandstein 05:33, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

This is not a content dispute, but a claim of elaborate disguising of introduction of original research and/or false information into a Wikipedia article. Talk:Battle of Van is very informative, and so is the fact that this user has been blocked three times for this, although the actual reason for the blocks was edit warring, not OR or vandalism. I agree, however, that an AFD may be useful, as it could provide a nice precedent for removing his claims from articles, although so could stern administrative action. The issue with actually carrying out the latter is the difficultly of proving the falsehood of the claims of the alleged vandal. Location of and imput from other, uninvolved users with access to the alleged sources would be very insightful. Someguy1221 06:01, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

It seems to come under the auspices of both the Armenian and the Turkish Wikiprojects (usually a recipe for disaster), and also the Military History Wikiproject. I suggest asking on the talk page of the Military History Wikiproject for some uninvolved user input - chances are higher there than anywhere else that they will have suitable resources to prove or disprove the information. Neil ム 09:08, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Please Advise Me

Can I use an image with the following tag for the Back Cover of my magazine,

{{GFDL-self-with-disclaimers}}

If I am going to use the same image inside of the magazine and give due credit to the person and the source.Kaystar 06:58, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

You have to attribute Wikipedia with the image that you are using under GFDL. Miranda 07:00, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

OK, that means if attribute wikipedia inside of the magazine, I can use the image on the Back Cover as well? Kaystar 07:04, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

We're not lawyers, particularly intellectual property lawyers, but in my humble opinion the license's plain language says it's OK to use GFDL materials as long as you follow the requirement to give credit. If Wikipedia is the source you should credit that, and you need to list the Authors (whoever uploaded and/or modified it) as well. It doesn't say "Can't use on the cover" or "Must have separate credits if you use it twice". If you use it, you need to credit it. If you credit it, you could use it on every page of the magazine and both covers. But you don't need to put the credits right next to or on the same page each time you use it. The license just indicates you have to credit it.

Please do not take any of these comments as legal advice, however. Georgewilliamherbert 07:08, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

Thanks. But I couldn't understand the statement with no Invariant Sections, no Front-Cover Texts, and no Back-Cover Texts.Kaystar 07:30, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

That refers to the GFDL license; it doesn't mean you can't use it on the back cover. If you credit the author and source, you can use it where you want. Sarah 08:58, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

Thanks.Kaystar 12:32, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

I am not a lawyer, but I did stay at a Holiday Inn last night. :-P Credit the author as well as the encyclopedia. If you have any more questions, contact OTRS. Disclaimer: Although some of us are lawyers, Wikipedia does not give legal advice. Hope this helps. Miranda 07:13, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

ThanksKaystar 07:30, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Concerns of Sockpuppetry

I just recently noticed this IP making edit summaries like this on recent changes. I notice administrator Gyrofrog has labeled it a sockpuppet. It is a bit hard to tell whether those diff links prove real connections between the IP and the person he believes is the sockmaster. The only real concrete one is this revert on Ostad Elahi (an article that the sockmaster had edited before. I can't really make much out of it yet. Anyone else care to investigate? I have only given the IP a warning about the abusive edit summaries at the moment.¤~Persian Poet Gal ^(talk) 07:14, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

I just noticed Golbez already blocked the IP.¤~Persian Poet Gal ^(talk) 07:15, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] User:Dizzystufffolks

User:Dizzystufffolks appears to be primarily a vandalism account, particularly for the Karl Stefanovic article but also The Castle (film) and BoyTown. Has also been warned numerous times. Seeking some mediation, or a block is more appropriate. Thanks. The KZA 11:31, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

First edit in 8 days; revert, ignore, move on. LessHeard vanU 11:50, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Njyoder (talk · contribs)

User njyoder continually makes personal attacks and uncivil comments in the course of this discussion: Talk:PayPal#Request_For_Comment:_Criticism_and_PayPalSucks.com. I've reminded him twice to read WP:CIVIL and WP:NPA before continuing the discussion but his block history shows a multitude of blocks for incivility and personal attacks (yes they were awhile ago, but if you look at his contrib history he hasn't done much editing between then and now. Upon his return and much more active involvement he's returned to his previous behaviour.--Crossmr 13:22, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Name-calling by User:M.V.E.i., again

I would like admins to do something about User:M.V.E.i. using language like Bandera-Ass-Kisser. This is the user, who has been banned numerous times for incivility and personal attacks [59] and yet this continues again Talk:Russians in Ukraine#Remarkable tolerance, remarkably absent from other places--Hillock65 14:50, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

I would like to explain myself. In the same link you could see the phrase said ny the user Hillock: "because another Stalin lover is not here to offer his valuable opinion". This "another stalin lover" is a user named Kuban Kazak, and he's not a Stalinists, he stated it on his user page. Practically, the complaining user was the one who started calling people names. "Another", then who is the first one? He ment, me. Me whose grand-grand-father was a peasent killed in 1930 by the Cheka/NKVD for "anti-soviet agitation" (and that was alie invented by neighbours who hoped to get he's part of land, which was in good condition because he worked hard on it. I maybe exegirated calling him: "bandera-ass-kisser", but you could understand me to, it's like calling someone who lost someone at the holocause "Nazi". Now, after an hour, i calmed down and be shure now i wouldn't allow myself to talk like this, but at the moment it just striked me strong! The thing is that as you could see from the same link, me and another user after a long argument agreed on somthing, at least for now. And Hillock, who didn't say a word while the argument was on, when it ended, and you could see that from the link, tryed to provocate another argument. M.V.E.i. 15:15, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

I was discussing an article, not you or User:Kuban kazak, who, as you can see proudly displays a picture of Stalin on his user page. As for the argument, it ended because people are tired of your edit warring. Look how many edits you've made in the last 24 hrs[60], ever wondered about 3RR? I wouldn't bother reporting you to 3RR, my concern is name calling, not your revert warring. --Hillock65 15:35, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

IN THE LINK it was clearly seen you called people Stalinists. HE EXPLAINED ON HIS USER PAGE, in a section called disclamer, that he's against Stalin. The think is, that the same link you gives has all the evedence that you're the one to blame. If you "were discusting the article", why were you droping blames on a not related article? Why did you start critisizing a user for agreeng to a compromise? I agree with Alaexis down here. If your concern is name calling then don't you dare to call people Stalinist! M.V.E.i. 15:52, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

Please, read carefully again. I didn't call anyone stalinist. If someone proudly displays a picture one of the worst mass muderers, it should be noted, but not the way you described. --Hillock65 15:59, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

"Because another Stalin lover is not here to offer his valuable opinion", these are your words. M.V.E.i. 16:19, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

And by the way! I was the one who created the article, and belive me, Kuban Kazak contributed to it more then me, and more then anybody. Probablly more then all the other users editing the article together taken. After what he've done for the article, i really belive his opinion i "valuable". M.V.E.i. 16:24, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

---

Hillock, what was the purpose of that edit (completely unrelated to the topic of the talkpage's article)? If one takes into account your subsequent report here it starts to look not very nice... Alæxis_¿question? 15:31, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

It is related, because tolerance of that user's behaviour and revert warring in this article is remarkable. No one wanted to do anything. --Hillock65 15:37, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

Is labeling people "Stalinist" is tolerance? There was a "war", and it was settled. I wanted picture A in one section to stay, and B in other to be removed. Another user wanted picture A to be removed, and B to stay. A compromise? Both of them stay for now. And yet, you couldn't stand the fact that an agreement was reached, so you started provocating the other user, and that didn't work because he's just to smart for that. It all could be found in the link that you gave, and in the link Alaexis gave. M.V.E.i. 15:51, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

IRT Alaexis: Hillock is a well-known disruptor, so such kind of edits with numerous PA's are absolutely not surprising. -- Grafikm ^(AutoGRAF) 15:42, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

Wrong. However, Grafikm_fr and Kuban kazak have been identified as belonging to same cabal, which is occasionally orbited by Alaexis. Digwuren 15:48, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

That was the least of my intentions to have one cabal go against the other. The only issue here is incivility, that is all. Nothing else. --Hillock65 15:52, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

Yeah right, thats why you labled people Stalinist. After a settelment was reached, you suddenly care and try to start the war again? Yeah nice. Noble Peace Price. M.V.E.i. 15:57, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

Actually, when considering the Big Picture, it's clear that the reason such tactics are (selectively) tolerated on Russians in Ukraine is that the above non-mentioned Cartel has been far too successful in exercising WP:OWN in regards to that article (and a host of others), scaring away any uninvolved administrators. The uncivility is not the problem; it's a symptom of the problem. The problem is much, much deeper.

If random administrators would patrol that "forgotten" corner of Wikipedia more often, civility wouldn't become a problem. But who's going to implement Wikipedia jury duty? Digwuren 16:00, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

Not that I care for cartel accusations, but here are the links to substantiate Digwuren's point [61]--Hillock65 16:10, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

Hillock your a specialists in knocking yourself out with youre own llinks. Theres nothing wrong beetwen a group of editors being in good relationship. But you really made some nonsense edits. Like the time that you inserted information about Ukrainians to the Russians in Ukraine article and we tryed to explaine you that the article is about Russians and not about Ukrainians. M.V.E.i. 16:16, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

I am just thrilled that some editors are in such good relationship! Good for them. Apparently, they were in even "better relationship" when ganged up against another Ukrainian editor, who only tried to introduce an infobox in Kievan Rus'[62]. Compare that to you removing whole chunks of text against the concensus of the editors in Russians in Ukraine[63]. In the first instance "the editors in good relationship" wouldn't tolerate any changes, and in your case you get away with removing text and continuous revert warring. My point was precisely to wonder why "the editors in good relationship" were applying such an outrageous double standard in relation to you. That is all. --Hillock65 16:49, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

I know that Alex Bakharev is the most honest administrator there is, and once he already protected the article till the problems were resolved. But i also want to say, before Kuban Kazak was gone everything was working just fine. He really wanted this article to become good, thats why he alwaays gave referencess, he stayed nutral, he really did a good job. I personaly belive that once he's baclk everything returns to normal. M.V.E.i. 16:12, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

Actually, Grafikm is correct. Since the article Russians in Ukraine was created it was like these: Me, Kuban Kazak, and a few other adding information, upgrading the article. Hillock? Deleted it. I remember how there was a war beetwen Kuban Kazak and Hillock, and though it was clear it was Hillock's fault i went to both of them and tryed to stop it, without saying anyone of them is he wrong or is he right. I was really patient with him so far, but now he broke the line! He has no right to lable people Stalinists. M.V.E.i. 15:57, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Fair use abuse in galleries

Today, I removed a gallery of fair use images from Acorn Electron citing as usual WP:NFCC as basis [64]. The removal of such galleries has been a routine, ongoing, constant effort to reduce such abuse of fair use images. A short while later, User:Retro junkie reverted the removal [65]. Seeing this, I reverted the reinsertion of the images against policy [66] and left a note to User:Retro junkie on the matter [67] offering to answer any questions on the issue and noting that simple reversion was not an option. He chose to ignore my offer and reverted again [68], leaving me a note [69] essentially stating that my interpretation of policy was inaccurate and accusing me of "nothing short of vandalism", to quote him directly. I've reverted his re-insertion of the images yet again [70] and left him a note [71] indicating I was reporting this violation of policy here.

This gallery is nothing more than screenshots of the respective programs written for the computer in question. Many of the titles in the screenshots have separate articles on them. Fair use images are entirely appropriate for those articles, but not here on this article in gallery format.

I request that, should this user revert yet again that the re-insertion be undone and a warning left for the user to cease with forcing fair use galleries onto articles per our policies on the use of fair use images. Thank you for your time and attention, --Durin 01:13, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

I request the (non admin) user Durin is given a warning to curb his obsessive behaviour regarding images. I do not see why he should be allowed to vandalise an article and then report anyone who dares to question him. If there are genuine concerns that the gallery is not needed or is excessive, it should be discussed on the article's discussion page. In the meantime it should be left there so the images are not orphaned (and anyone who happens to read the article for the first time is not denied an important descriptive section!). There seems to me to be no policy that rules against such use of images. In fact the policies quoted to me by Durin seem to back up the gallery 100%. I would appreciate a discussion on the article itself rather than a blanket 'many such galleries are deleted' statement. Surely the rules are a guide to help make decisions. Decisions should be made by rational human beings.Retro junkie 11:09, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

Keep it civil, please. Per WP:NFCC - "Non-free content is used only if its presence would significantly increase readers' understanding of the topic, and its omission would be detrimental to that understanding" - so the question is "Does this gallery add to reader's understanding of the article"? and the answer is "No". Practically all those games have their own articles, so a simple linked list would suffice. ELIMINATORJR 11:13, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

I'd just like to note here that Durin is doing a fantastic job. Seraphim ^Whipp 11:25, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

Seconded. Retro junkie, please don't label good faith edits as vandalism, no matter how you feel about them. Neil ム 11:27, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

Also if the answer to the above question is "yes" for some of the images please put the image near the relevant text that describe the capabilities or limitations identified by the image rater than just stuffing them into a gallery section at the end of the article. For example using a screenshot to help explain how some developers would work around memory limitations by spending some of the dedicated video memory on other things and how this would result in graphical artifacts outside of the active display area where the non-graphical data would be rendered sounds acceptable. You also have to write a non-free use rationale on the image page of each used image explaining how the image significantly increases the understanding of the article. --Sherool (talk) 11:39, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for some constructive discussion. I agree that may be a way forward however the quick reference and comparison would be lost by scattering images throughout the article. Oh and I know about fair use rationale - I hadn't realised they were missing (it wasn't me that uploaded those images). I have no problem adding them if they are going to stay. Could any helpful discussion on the specific Acorn Electron article please now be made on the discussion page?Retro junkie 15:30, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

• I'd like to comment on a particular aspect of this; that Retro junkie has requested discussion of removal of images before removal. I've run across this a number of times. The problem inherent in this is that we have approximately 380 thousand articles that have at least one fair use image on them and a large subset of these have images used against policy. If we were to have a debate about every removal we ever do, we might as well give up now. Conducting this work would become impossible. This is not to say I'm not willing to listen to people who protest the removal. In fact, quite the contrary. I work hard to educate people on this issue. Doing anything less would be counter to our purpose. But to have a debate every time we conduct a removal is an entirely different thing. Such a situation would make it impossible to maintain our fair use image situation in accordance with policy. --Durin 12:49, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
  • I'd like to think some (hopefully almost all) of what you are deleting is without question breaching policy and not adding anything to the articles in question. Obviously discussion of all such articles would be unnecessary and virtually impossible however if there is some dispute, would it not be better to reinstate the gallery in question while it is being discussed or until it can be improved or better incorporated into the article as a whole?Retro junkie 15:30, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
    • The gallery removal I did in this case was without question in line with policy. Yet, it was debated by you anyways. You still dispute it in fact Talk:Acorn_Electron#Screenshot gallery. --Durin 16:02, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
      • Do you really believe it was 'without question' a breach of policy? Are you not prepared to even take a little of somebody else's opinion on board? I guess we will just have to agree to disagree. It's just a shame that certain people's opinions seem to count more than others. Retro junkie 22:34, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
        • I've informed you of where to go to debate this. I heartily encourage you to do so. EVERYbody's opinion matters, and I've been a major supporter of first time, first edit editors getting as much respect as Jimbo. But in this case, it is a blatant abuse of fair use overuse. This has been explained to you multiple times by more people than myself, and you still disagree. --Durin 22:57, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Request for Action

Civility is disappearing [72] 68.244.50.184 02:43, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

The incident happened a week ago. Blocks are preventative, not punitive. Shell ^babelfish 02:51, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

And he apologized for it the next day. Why are you posting it here now? Mike R 21:15, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Orange Institution

User:Domer48 [a] has made a controversial claim about the current state of the Orange Institution using, among others, a 30 year old (sic) reference by political activist Michael Farrell (The other reference- 12 years old- predates a lot a lot of history in the region). I have no love of this particular organisation but C’mon guys, this is bringing Wikipedia into disrepute [73]Aatomic1 11:28, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

It doesn't appear that you've made any effort to discuss this on either the article talk page or the talk page of Domer48. I would think that would be a good step to take before coming to WP:ANI. --Onorem♠Dil 11:33, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

You obviously have not dealt with him before [a] Aatomic1 11:42, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

Agreed, Content dispute. It is cited properly, and despite Domer48's.. colorful history (note, I'm the one who put him in that list, so if anything, I know he isn't a perfect editor, but then again, who is...).. if Aatomic1 can't find a more recent cite to disprove the claim referenced in the cite, there's no reason why it should be removed. It fits the definition. SirFozzie 23:11, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

Oh, and before I forget.. page full-protected, as it looks like this has multiple participants on both sides. Work it out on the talk page or using WP:DR. Stop bringing your edit wars to AN/ANI. SirFozzie 23:27, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

Excellent call. It looks like both these factions have been revert-warring on this article for quite some time. I noted that Aatomic1 was just blindly reverting that article yesterday - Alison ☺ 00:10, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Abusive language by Evlekis

Here I report you the repeated actions of abusive language of user:Evlekis on Wikipedia. These can be found on his userpage.
See the examples:

• "Pizda" - c*nt (in Slavic languages). Not used in polite language.
• "Kurac" - c*ck (penis) (in South Slavic languages, I think also in E Slavic languages). Not used in polite language.
• "Ebanje" - f*ucking (in most Slavic languages it's said "jebanje", but I think that in Macedonian and in Bulgarian they use hyperekavian form, "ebanje". Also, in other Slavic languages, "ebanje" reminds on "full word form", and mentioning that "shortened" form is the thing that's not used in polite language.
• "Paardenlul" - Literally: "horses's c*ck" (in Dutch). In the meaning of "a*shole". Also, see where Google search takes you with that keyword [74].
• "Caralho" - f*cker. "karati" in Serbian = "fucking", so sounds like "f*ckalho".
• "vluggertje" - in Dutch "quickie".
• "knullar" - in Swedish "f*cking".
• "gomno". - Sounds like "govno", in Slavic languages meaning = "shit".
• Also, he used many swearing in text:
• "Idi U Kurac" - "go to c*ck" (in South Slavic languages). Heavy curse.
• "Pushi Kurac" - "Suck c*ck". (in South Slavic languages). Reads as "puši kurac" in S Slavic languages, if you want to check the meaning.
• "vaffanculo" - in Italian. Not used in polite language.
• User:Evlekis has also uploaded pictures with text that contain abusive language. E.g. [75].
  
• Leccacazzi. In Italian: "leccare"= to lick, "Cazzi" in Italian means "c*cks, penises"; form not used in polite language.
• Leccami la mia figa'. In Italian: "leccare"= to lick. "Figa" in some Italian dialects means "c*nt".
  
• faszszopó" - "c*cksucker" (in Hungarian).
• szopd le a faszomat" - "s*ck my d*ck" (in Hungarian).
• User Evlekis also uploaded this picture, containing text with words "cunt". [76].

Here're some changes, so you can see that he, user:Evlekis, uploaded that text on his userpage [[77], [78], [79], [80], [81], [82], [83], [84], etc.. Mostly in the section A_Fictional_Story_unrelated_to_actual_events...well...a_few....
To check, see http://www.youswear.com (or talk to admins that know those languages).
We don't have to tolerate such users.
Wikipedia has explicit policy of dealing with such persons and such behaviour. This was not just one incident, as you see this is a bunch of repeated actions/edits.
Such users should be banned from editing Wikipedia. Sincerely, Kubura 12:25, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

Personally, I can't see a problem here; Wikipedia is uncensored, and all the offending items appear to be in his userspace, obviously meant as a joke, and not directed at anyone in particular (which would be unacceptable as a personal attack) — iridescent (talk to me!) 13:00, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

I'm with Iridescent. Put a few swear words into something that shouldn't for a joke. Will ^(talk) 13:10, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

Seems to be one of those Names changed stories. You can't really publish your views and stuff like that with real names into wikipedia; I Have met that kind of stuff before. Choosing of the words might be a bit rough, but I don't see any reason for administrative action. Suva 13:15, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

Looks like you haven't read the content disclaimer yet. MER-C 13:18, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

No real problem with using rude words on his user page - they are not directed at anyone in particular. Something else bothered me though, so I've left a polite request to remove one pipelink. Neil ム 13:26, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

Hmmm... Might be the basis of a new article - Non English Swear Words, Curses, and Impolite Expressions Found In The Encyclopedia Anyone Can Edit? LessHeard vanU 15:31, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

There already is a relevant article. It's called Film at 11. Digwuren 15:44, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] On another note...

What happened to Wikipedia is not social networking? Doesn't having that many pictures and a long story seem a bit excessive to anyone? Sasquatch t|c 19:00, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

Good question. WP:User_page#Inappropriate_content would appear to apply too. Quite how "The Kingdom of Fucking borders The State of Fucking; the borlerline counties of Fucking (West Cunt)..." helps the project, I'm not sure. Neil has raised it on the user's talk page, so perhaps he (the user) will be along soon to enlighten us. WP:NOTCENSORED exists to allow us to discuss various acts and beliefs that some find offensive, either in description or depiction, not so that we can list swear words in mock articles on our userpages. Mr Stephen 19:23, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

LI don't really mind the swearing, it's not directed at anyone, and if it keeps him happy, fine, whatever. All I've asked him to do is remove the piped links where he describes the European Union as "the Brussels Gay Community" and "the Brussels Retard Community", as that is offensive. Neil ム 21:07, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

I don't really care about the swearing, for Neil's reason that it isn't directed at anybody. I am, however, unsure of the value of this fiction on a WIkipedia user page. I construe it as a violation of WP:NOT and WP:USER. —Crazytales (t.) 21:46, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Unilateral move

Gryffindor deleted a page to make way for an unilateral move (Passirio -> Passer river). It was reverted, and so he protected the page ([85]).--Supparluca 17:01, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

He didn't protect the page he moved, he just made another revert move. He did, however, use his admin bit to make his first move over a page with an existing history. But then, that history consisted only of a dummy edit by yourself, Supparluca, and it might easily be suspected that you had actually made that dummy edit in order to "scorch the earth" and prevent potential later page moves (a dirty technique; I've repeatedly gone on record warning people I'd block them if I found them using it intentionally.) In any case, Gryffindor's move warring is disappointing. He is heavily involved as a party in a long-standing dispute over geographical names in South Tyrol, and I warned him once before that he shouldn't use his admin tools in it. Fut.Perf. ☼ 17:18, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

Anyway, the page is blocked now.--Supparluca 19:28, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

Ooops, I hadn't seen this. It turns out Gryffindor himself was using the dirty trick of redirect-scorching ([86], [87]), rather than officially "protecting" using his admin tools. I'm not sure which is worse, but it's certainly very very uncool either way. I'm giving him a stern warning, and will revert to the status quo ante (whichever that was, I don't remember). Fut.Perf. ☼ 21:27, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

Thanks. He did the same thing on Isarco river, I don't know if you want to delete that page to unblock it.--Supparluca 22:56, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

Ah, I see. But in that case the Eisack version was in fact the status quo ante, and confirmed by an earlier RM, before Rex Germanus started the unilateral moves and triggered the move war earlier this month, so I guess in this case I'd prefer leaving it where it is now. Fut.Perf. ☼ 23:23, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Continued WP:STALK, WP:UNCIVIL, and WP:EW by Chrisjnelson

Chrisjnelson (talk · contribs) continues to behave in a manner that is counter productive. In addition to an RFC on his behavior and an ArbCase involving me and him as the principal parties - he continues to operate unchecked. The latest of this is on Michael Vick, but you will see remnants of this at Talk:Jermaine Wiggins, and at User talk:Ksy92003. He continues to drive editors away, make uncivil statements in his edit summaries and his talk pages and has refused to participate in the ArbCom case. This needs to be handled as he has followed me to several articles and reverts my edits (and with poor reason as well). Juan Miguel Fangio| ►Chat  22:10, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

Umm... no.►Chris Nelson 22:20, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

Shouldn't there be like... some evidence here? Unless... there isn't any. Yeah, I said "shit" in a recent edit summary of Michael Vick. So I apologize for that. I was just a little offended Juan accused me of edit warring when I made a completely benevolent edit that had nothing to do with him. As for following him to several articles, I admit I arrived at them from his contributions page but my edits were not in relation to his (at least not intentionally, I did not view his diffs) and I made no reverts at that time. So that's a lie. Just like when he accused me of edit warring today. All lies. Other than that, he's right on the money.►Chris Nelson 22:38, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

(Edit conflict)

Actually, yes. Your edit summaries and other comments you've made have been hurtful to me, in particular. I made an incredibly minor edit ([88]) which did more good than harm, clearly, and I was reverted by Chris; his edit summary: "Sorry, I disagree with all these edits" which to me seemed like an obnoxious statement by somebody who seems to not want his words changed. In a comment on my talk page (visible on this version of my talk page), Chris said "I'm undoing [your edit] because I've thought about that intro, [and] I've used it on a ton of player pages." Later, in a comment (visible on this version of Chris' talk page), Chris said "Well I am a better writer than you. That's pretty obvious" which I took very offensively. These are only a few examples of Chris' (in my opinion) selfish and disruptive behavior. Ksy92003(talk) 22:42, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

I'm sorry you've misinterpreted some of my words.►Chris Nelson 22:46, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

If you think I've misinterpreted them, then how did you mean to say those comments? Because I was really offended by the way you said those comments, and that hurts a lot. Ksy92003(talk) 22:58, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

jmfangio - either rovide some evidence or drop it. Both of you take your feud elsewhere unless you have something that actually isn't wasting other editor's time. Spartaz ^Humbug! 22:49, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

How much evidence would you like? I would love to drop it but CJN continues to instigate. Speaking specifically to the stalking portion - this edit was the last of three edits i made (in a row) to Jermaine Wiggins, the edits were to change the infobox to a newly instituted one. CJN had never edited that article previously. Yet this edit was nothing more than an edit to the content i had just inserted. There is more; and as you can see - there are clearly others having issue with this persons behavior. Juan Miguel Fangio| ►Chat  23:02, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

Already explained the Wiggins thing. Anything else?►Chris Nelson 23:07, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

• Further evidence - this edit was my first edit to vick today which he very quickly reverted here. Juan Miguel Fangio| ►Chat  23:10, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

That's not evidence of anything...►Chris Nelson 23:11, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

I don't think Chrisjnelson was stalking anyone. From WP:STALK: "This does not include checking up on an editor to fix errors or violations of Wikipedia policy, nor does it mean reading a user's contribution log; those logs are public for good reason." If you can find evidence that Chrisjnelson was following your edits specifically to harass you, then you would have a case. ugen64 23:15, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

• That's the problem ugen - that's not what he's doing. He's showing up on articles he has never edited before and making edits that have been identified as contentious - this is just an extension of a much bigger problem. I have continued to find new articles and leave him alone and yet he continues to show up on pages I edit. I have not violated wiki policy with these edits, i have not inserted a single image (in these edits) and if you look at the content - they are at best - nothing more than "differences of opinion". Juan Miguel Fangio| ►Chat  23:17, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

Yeah that's the thing. I fully admit I got there from his contributions page, and at the request of User:B I've agreed not to view it anymore, but I was never editing them to undo anything he did or combat his edits. I wasn't trying to harass anyone; they were totally benevolent edits. There were no reverts made from the times I was there on his talk page. If I recall correctly, the first revert between the two of us at Jermaine Wiggins was done by him.►Chris Nelson 23:17, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

• Evidence of an agitating statement here Juan Miguel Fangio| ►Chat  23:20, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

Would an admin please tell me what was wrong with that? Jmfangio hasn't provided any good evidence. Let's just close this ridiculous thing.►Chris Nelson 23:20, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

Didn't we just have a WP:CSN brokered aggrement that these two would leave each other alone? And based on that the arbcom hearing that was going to review both of their conduct was dropped? am I missing something? what changed? --Rocksanddirt 23:26, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

I've tried to leave him alone, he keeps accusing me of things (lies) like edit-warring and crap.►Chris Nelson 23:27, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

So you've tried to leave me alone but you continue to use my edit history to find new articles to edit? Chris - stop! You do this to everyone, you've done this to Michigan10 (talk · contribs), to Ksy92003 (talk · contribs), Xanderer (talk · contribs), Yankees10 (talk · contribs) - just stop. Juan Miguel Fangio| ►Chat  23:41, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

It's not just Jmfangio who feels this way, Chris. I feel the same way as him because of your edit warring with me and insulting words towards me. Ksy92003(talk) 23:42, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

Juan - what are you talking about, I "continue to use your edit history"? That's not true at all. I haven't been to your contributions page since the original Wiggins/Terrell incident and B asked me not to go there. You have no evidence of me doing this further. and REMOVED PERSONS NAME - your problems, not mine.►Chris Nelson 23:44, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

Why are you disclosing someone's name? Admins - i really don't have anything else to say here. He continues to instigate users, continues to abuse us, you can see a bunch of this at User:Jmfangio/arbcom evidence. Juan Miguel Fangio| ►Chat  23:46, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

Exactly - no evidence. We done here?►Chris Nelson 23:50, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

So if this [89] is not applicable, why don't you go back to the arbcomm and get both of your conduct sorted out. Obviously, the aggreement didn't work, as the disruption continues. --Rocksanddirt 23:52, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

(Edit conflict)

Chris, I've provided plenty of evidence. And what do you mean "your problems, not mine?" My "problems" were caused by you, so they are yours as well. Ksy92003(talk) 23:53, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

You've only provided evidence of tiny things YOU take way too seriously and get all bent out of shape about. THAT is not my problem. If I dished out some serious personal attacks, then it'd be my problem. But if I think I'm a better writer than you and you're going to freak out and say things like "HOW DARE YOU" (which is adorable, by the way) that's YOUR problem. Hope thing clarifies it.►Chris Nelson 00:57, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

Will you just fucking shut up and disengage? What are you here for? You're supposed to be here to help create an encyclopedia, not war. You're not helping. Maxim_(talk) 01:13, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

So I provide evidence, and you just decide that it's not good enough? You continue to say that this isn't your problem. How can you deny that comments that you make aren't your problem? I don't get how you can deny that. I think you just don't want to be held responsible for your reactions. Ksy92003(talk) 01:13, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

Because they're childish and trivial. They are legitimate personal attacks. If I REALLY made some personal attacks, it'd be a serious thing. But I didn't. I made trivial little comments that you took offense to because of some personality trait of yours. Not my problem. If you want to try to get my blocked for thinking I'm a better writer than you, have at it. But it's like when Juan complained about my calling him "dude". It was such a silly and childish complaint, no one took it seriously.►Chris Nelson 01:15, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

No personal attack is legitimate. A personal attack is a personal attack. It's like comparing a wildfire to lighting a match. Both are fires, right? Well, personal attacks are still personal attacks, no matter at what level, and they are never legitimate. Ksy92003(talk) 01:19, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

Well my point is this - I don't give a shit.►Chris Nelson 01:20, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

You see? It's comments such as that which add fuel to the fire. Please stop with the foul language. Ksy92003(talk) 01:22, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

While I will not block, as I am involved in the ArbCom case and the issue in general, I'm going to encourage that someone please help these two to take some cooldown time. This has really gotten to the point of ridiculous. Seraphimblade ^{Talk to me} 01:40, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

I've blocked Chris, I'm unsure about Ksy and Juan, they've been reasonably civil. Maxim_(talk) 01:44, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

After looking farther I agree with your judgment, I think Chris has indeed been the primary cause of the issue in this case. Seraphimblade ^{Talk to me} 03:44, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

Chris is lucky someone else acted before me: I would have imposed a one week block for gross violations of WP:POINT, and that was before I noted the name disclosure he made here. Durova^Charge! 03:52, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] User revealing other users' real identity - this is bad

Is this the correct place to notify Wikipedia administration of wrongful behavior? User "Ubuntu user" has posted the real identity of an editor. This is wrong and deserves punishment.

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:194.123.230.36&diff=prev&oldid=154450487

Rather than just say "hello", this person said "Hello, Mabel and Friso". This happened yesterday.

For anyone who knows, Friso is a Dutch prince and Mabel is his wife. Mrs.EasterBunny 22:45, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

I did a WHOIS lookup on the IP and it resolves to "Koninklijk Paleis Huis ten Bosch" (Huis ten Bosch), indeed the royal palace. User:Ubuntu user posted on Princess Mabel's talk page a message that included... "Althought I'm a Dutch republican, I think it is great the Dutch Royal family participates on wikipedia." So I think it was done without malicious intent. In addition I believe there was a news article in the Dutch press about that specific edit (the princess editing her own page to remove negative POV, or something like that, I'm just guessing from stuff posted on talk pages). I have no idea what to do with this issue though... ugen64 23:12, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

(a.e.c.) According to the well-sourced "editing negative information" section of our article Princess Mabel of Orange-Nassau, the Dutch Government Information Service confirmed prior to Ubuntu's "revealing" a putative identity that the sole edit from the IP at issue was indeed made by the those whom Ubuntu addressed. Whilst it may nevertheless be untoward or otherwise ill-advised or acollegial to refer by name to an editor whom one identifies other than by the editor's revealing his identity on-wiki, there appears to be no outing here (of course, in view of WHOIS, to which we link from IP contribs pages, there is really nothing to "out"—I suppose one's suggesting the specific identity of someone editing under an IP the owner and geographic location of which we know might be in poor form), and, it seems, nothing should require any further action. Joe 00:03, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

As evidenced by the utter lack of condemnation of Wikiscanner, the "outing"/privacy rules don't apply to IP users, only people who get accounts. --Random832 23:42, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

Condemnation of Wikiscanner for doing what? He hasn't done anything that couldn't be done manually with a lot of digging. Corvus cornix 23:57, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

They were outed by the press, not by Ubuntu user. See my edits at Wikipedia_talk:Wikipedia_Signpost/2007-08-27/In_the_news. Corvus cornix 23:54, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

I guess I'm not seeing any nonpublic information being outed here. The press has already reported on the story, the royal family themselves have already acknowledged it, and the RDNS provides about as clear of an indicator as you could want. This wouldn't even require a lot of digging to find, a bit of googling and an RDNS would do just fine. It'd be more like someone referring to me as Todd—I have that information on my userpage, they're not "outing" me by that. Seraphimblade ^{Talk to me} 00:52, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Template testing

Nosseta, Knosseta, and another sock, Krighter1, have all been blocked. And my question was answered. -- Flyguy649 ^talk _contribs 02:23, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

This is something I haven't encountered before. I just reverted a test edit (diff) to template:Test template which has been unused since March, 2006. The user (Nosseta (talk · contribs); this was their first edit) argues that it is a test template and can be used for this purpose (dif). Is this ok? Is there a template sandbox I can refer them to? Incidently they've now started to test edit Template:Nossetas test template. -- Flyguy649 ^talk _contribs 01:50, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

This is now obviously a vandalism-only situation, but my general questions still apply. Flyguy649 ^talk _contribs 01:57, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

Well, if there isn't actually a template sandbox, I feel there should be. It is a fair idea. -- Anonymous Dissident^Talk 02:05, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

As Wikipedia:Sandbox says, templates {{X1}} through {{X9}} are sandboxes. — Carl (CBM · talk) 02:20, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

Thank you! -- Flyguy649 ^talk _contribs 02:24, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] User Posting Spam

User:Mayleaf appears to be an account set up with the sole purpose of posting spam links. A list of his contributions can be viewed here [90] he has been warned on his Talkpage about this by another editor but he's still posting them. Kelpin 15:09, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

Definitely a spam-only account. Indefinitely blocked, all spamming removed. Neil ム 15:26, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

I hate spammers. That said, this individual was warned, and instead of reposting the spam he went to Talk, said he was helping out his friends at the site, noted the link, and was then blocked before we could find out if he was going to press it. Not saying it's wrong, just a "hmmmm." Guy (Help!) 17:28, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

He reposted the link at the talk pages of some 120 articles, making no other contributions, before it was reported. As an aside, those talk pages that had a response to his link were unilaterally against including them on the articles (not that it has a particular bearing ... spam is spam is spam). Neil ム 08:37, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

Also the user was warned about his Talkpage posts on 22 August (his 2nd warning) but he continued to post spam without any explanation for his rationale afterwards. Kelpin 08:59, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

Its been subsequently added Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Spam#http:.2F.2Fspam.tourdates.co.uk. --Hu12 09:25, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Fourdee making racist postings

Just a note that Fourdee is making blatantly racist posts on several articles and/or talk pages [91][92][93][94][95], and I believe this is getting out of hand. Can an admin please look into it? The links I put together I did in about 5 minutes of looking through hs contribution history, and they're not all equally grievous, but I think this is worth looking into. Thanks!--Ramdrake 19:11, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

Just making a comment as an outside observer, the first one looks to be the worst (no excuse for the wording, tone, and message) while the rest are really strong opinion. Both of you seem to be locked into a edit war/wikistalking campaign. Spryde 19:39, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

Fine, I can accept your opinion. I just wanted to make sure a third, uninvolved party was aware of these postings. I was careful not to suggest any action, due to my involvement.--Ramdrake 19:43, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

No problem. I am not trying to judge anyone but put a perspective on it. Spryde 19:46, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

I think Fourdee should be blocked for at least 24 hours and warned that any more rascist spew like the first comment would result in an indefinite block. His comments go beyond what the media says and gives his opinions about the superirority of white women over black women. This is never acceptable except in white piower circles, SqueakBox 19:48, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

I'd note that making an ass of oneself on talk pages should not be prohibited; it provides an excellent guide to one's opinions and credibility. Matthew Brown (Morven) (T:C) 19:52, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

This comment should be added as well. There is also another statement on archive 16 of Talk:Holocaust: « This article is overblown with propaganda full of questionable numbers for not-very-wrong killings of bad persons festering within the borders of germany and neighboring areas. -- fourdee ᛇᚹᛟ 18:42, 25 August 2007 (UTC) » Again, just a random sample of his utterances. --Mathsci 19:53, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

Wow. That was one of the most code-filled obnoxious anti-semitic diatribes that I've read in a long time, and being Jewish, I've seen and heard it all. But if he wants to be a racist and disgusting, I don't care. I'm a firm supporter of free-speech and all--I would not support a block or a community ban. But I hope when fourdee has a heart-attack, the Jewish cardiologist ignores his racism and saves his life.OrangeMarlin ^{Talk• Contributions} 20:00, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

Not necessarily coded anti-semitic; he may be angry at socialists, gays, anarchists, Jehovah's Witnesses, communists, Esperantists, Romany, labor activists, or other "bad persons" that were killed. --Orange Mike 20:52, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

Editors having an opinion is of course allowed, and I am commenting on the content of the articles or responding to openly expressed opinions offered by other people. There's nothing saying a person who is racist or a nazi-sympathizer cannot edit and with appropriate civility share his views on articles, any more than a person who is a marxist, or a terrorist, or a pedophile, or any sort of belief, cannot with due civility share his views on the biases contained in articles and the problems with sources or paradigms used. People on wikipedia, including many admins, express very extreme and potentially offensive political views all the time - in the course of editing and discussing edits.

The first edit cited is a response to the opinion expressed by the previous poster that the media is being "manipulated" to give more coverage of missing white women. What I am saying is that the article and its editors are pushing a really offensive, vicious POV - the point is to discuss the article and genuinely not to air my views. This is by no means outside the tone I have often had directed at me and I view these incessant complaints as nothing more than a campaign to silence editors who have opposing points of view on the content of articles.

Wikipedia does not have approved points of view for editors to work under and I don't see how my behavior is anything but the mirror image of that of many other editors. Censorship would severely hinder Wikipedia and also weaken some important legal defenses it has in terms of not controlling the content. -- fourdee ᛇᚹᛟ 19:56, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

I think you're a disgusting human being. But I defend your right to say whatever you want. You should not be censored for being a racist. OrangeMarlin ^{Talk• Contributions} 20:02, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

I would agree. But should comments like "nobody cares about missing negresses or are not surprised when it happens - people care more about violence against white women" [96] be dealt with? That is pushing opinion to its limits and can be considered shouting fire in a theater. Spryde 20:03, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

For example SqueakBox says on my user talk page "You may believe your own deluded rubbish but others find it offensive and this kind of behaviour is simply not tolerable". I think that is far more of a personal attack or incivility than the things I have said, but is the sort of persistent attack I have faced on wikipedia. We see the same from orangemarlin above and many others. I have very rarely complained about this and do try to be understanding that some people have extremely different views and may be so frustrated or dumbfounded that they inadvertantly toss out a personal attack. I do the best I can to keep the polemics out, especially as directed at individuals or other editors, and stick to the problems with articles and beliefs or bias they may reflect. -- fourdee ᛇᚹᛟ 20:06, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

How could what I wrote possibly be considered offensive? And how would anyione with a modicum of reasoning not find Fourdee's hate-filled statements other than being a personal attack against black women. I have changed my mind and think he shopuld be blocked indefinitely, perhaps at the community sanctions noticeboard if no admin here will do it, SqueakBox 20:22, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

Here are a couple more that are blatantely anti-Semitic: [97], [98]. We have banned people before for such things. I think it is important to make clear two things: first, Fourdee has put a lot of racist talk on the talk pages, and he has made it clear that he wants to incert his racist views into articles themselves: [([99] but I believe that such talk actually obscures the issue. the issue is the way Fourdee is manipulating Wikipedia to make an end-run around our policies. Talk pages are for discussions to improve the articles, and I am sure Fourdee sincerly believes that adding his racist views to articles will improve them ... but as long as other editors are vigelant, his racist views will not be added to articles. The result is never the end of the discussion on the talk paqge. Despite the fact that his ideas seldom enter articles, he continues to add considerable amounts of material onto talk pages. Why? in effect he is turning talk pages into his own blog - he has hijacked out talk pages to publicize his racist views. The awful thing is, if he added them to an article they woule be deleted because they would violate various policies. But you all know there is a strong ethic here never to remove people's comments from talk pages. In this way, he ensures that the content he wants stays in Wikipedia. i suspect he prefers that his talk never actually enter articles because on talk pages he feels protected. But Wikipedia should not protect racist content, and not let its talk pages be hijacked to promote content that we would never let stay in an article. He has been blocked before. If it is premature to ban him, put him on parole and wait and see. Slrubenstein | Talk 20:07, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

Now I undestand why he is completely irrelevant to the WP:NPOV policy, the racist bias in those comments (most notably the first one) is unacceptable and it breaches WP:CIVIL by a long shot, yet this is the man that vandalized El C's user page because he has images of revolutionaries that he feels are "terrorists", well Wikipedia isn't the place to push any kind of white supremacist or black power pov, doing so only affects the image of community as a whole and must be punished, I recommend opening a Request for Arbitration and let the administrators decide what's the best diciplinary measure, this is beyond a noticeboard violation. - Caribbean~H.Q. 20:08, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

well, it's offensive, racist, bigoted and ignorant. He's a holocaust denier and a pro-nazi sympathizer. Block him or don't we all know what kind of person he is, and how to view any suspicious edits he ever makes again, and with a thread like this, he won't be an admin ever. I'd support a block for the ridiculous violations of CIVIL. ThuranX 20:11, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

I am in agreement. He whines about how we treat him, then attacks El C's page. I'm still going to defend Fourdee's right to make an ass out of himself, because I find censorship abhorrent. If he tries to edit an article to make it more racist, there are 100's of editors who'll fix it. And I don't give a crap about civility. That's just a bogus attempt to censor people on this project. OrangeMarlin ^{Talk• Contributions} 20:12, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

Also falls into WP:GAME?--F3rn4nd0 ^{(Roger - Out)} 20:15, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

Looks like Jimbo [[100]] took care of this/is taking care of this. Spryde 20:21, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

Yep. Good call by Jimbo. Should have been done much earlier in my opinion.--Jersey Devil 20:25, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

Dammnit I was on my way to block him myself. ⇒ SWATJester ^{Denny Crane.} 20:28, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

As was I. Jimbo also beat me to it. It was an obvious call IMHO.--Jersey Devil 20:33, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

I also completely support Jimbo's decision in this one; those comments made for a very hostile environment and do violate the spirit of our policies on civil discussions. Wikipedia does not equal free speech - where did that idea ever come from? Shell ^babelfish 20:35, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

You know what this means, don't you? As of now we are all on sock-puppet patrol. Slrubenstein | Talk 20:29, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

Since when were we ever NOT on sock patrol? - Crockspot 20:36, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

Oh thank god! I had an edit conflict and is has since been resolved, but I'm still going to post it.

Also, he reported me for NPA for calling him a racist and a Nazi, which on Wikipedia is supposed to be avoided at all cost. And calling someone a Nazi is concidered to be the most evil personal attack and bad faith, and I was blocked for it for 48 hours. Yet, this person is a self-proclaimed Nazi and racist! This crap of policy is totally screwed up. - Jeeny ^Talk 20:37, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

Now, now, please watch your language, Jeeny! Remember:WP:CIVIL ;) --Ramdrake 20:40, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

Pfft! - Jeeny ^Talk 20:46, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

On a less positive note, I wrote a WP email yesterday to User:Theresa knott expressing my dismay at Fourdee's racist comments. She fobbed me off in a not very helpful way. I would be grateful if WP could draw up some guidelines on the issue of general racist offence. Thanks. --Mathsci 20:43, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

You should probably start a thread on the NPA talk page outlining some proposals, ie we are wikipedia, SqueakBox 21:36, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

It was a bad decision to block fourdee. MoritzB 21:05, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

Any particular reason you feel that, considering the overwhelming consensus here and the rather blatant examples presented? Tony Fox (arf!) 21:30, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

Because fourdee was an established user responsible for a huge volume of edits. Many of them were not related to race. His positive contributions outweigh the few racist comments he made on talk pages.

I fear that a dangerous precedent was established if users can become banned because 0.01% are edits are racist talk page comments intended to provoke/troll. Perhaps he had a bad day and decided to make harsh, racist comments to provoke discussion.

24 hours may be justified but a perma-ban was unwarranted.

MoritzB 21:53, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

If 0.01% of a prodigious number of edits are intended to provoke and troll over a long period of time, your conduct is disruptive, and you should be prepared to either check your tongue or face the consequences. --Haemo 22:18, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

MoritzB is either naive or has a self-interest in defending a racist; Fourdee was not having a bad day, he was acting as he always acts. Jimbo has always been vigilant about not letting people use Wikipedia to spread racist views. If you have a problem with that, take it up with him. That said, I share Orangemarlin's discomort at blocking someone just becuase he holds views I despise. Therefore, I do not agree with Matchsci that what we need is a guideline on racism. Here is what I think we ought to be working on: a content policy for talk pages. I am not proposing anyting new. What I am proposing is that we take elements of an existing policty, namely this and this, copy them from the [Wikipedia:What Wikipedia is not] policy and edit them to apply specifically to talk pages, which is where these particular elements of the policy most often apply. In addition, we should include in the proposed policy guidelines for enforcement e.g. if three different people have had separate occasions on the same talk page to use the "off topic" template or the "not a forum" warning, they can request that an admin review the incidents and if s/he deems it fitting warn the editor that a fourth such incident will result in a 24 hour block. What do you think? Does anyone want to start working on this? Slrubenstein | Talk 22:45, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

I'd second that and would be ready to lend a hand.--Ramdrake 22:47, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

I think that Slr's suggestions are exactly the sort of thing that is needed. I was a little imprecise in what I said and in fact was rather hoping that Slr would intervene, in view of his known experience. Thanks, Mathsci 23:06, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

There is already Wikipedia:Talk page guidelines which should already have this sort of thing covered. It says in bold right at the top that talk pages should not be used as a platform for editor's own personal opinions. Friday (talk) 22:47, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

I am suggesting elevating some of these to an enforcable policy. Slrubenstein | Talk 23:00, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

What's unenforceable about it now? Editors already prune irrelevant content from talk pages when they feel it's a good idea to do so. If an editor repeatedly rants on talk pages despite being told to cut it out, they can be blocked for disruption. This is already standard practice. Friday (talk) 23:04, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

You are the one who refered to the guideline. As you know, no guideline is enforcable. That is the difference between guidelines and policies.

It may be that we end up doing that, but we should be very careful in doing so. Right now, the list of personal beliefs for which Wikipedia editing access will be denied is very small... pretty much just pedophilia, though being pro-genocide would probably do it as well.

There are a lot of racists out there. Many of them aren't white supremacists; most racial and ethnic groups have their own closed-minded supremacist factions. There are also many who find a lot of the political beliefs out there extremely offensive (Fourdee in fact got in trouble earlier for going after editors with pro-Communist userpages in one form or another).

There is a slippery slope here. If we set down a policy in writing, it's hard to keep it from expanding out to cover more things that we want over time, and the more things it covers the more fighting it will engender.

It's easier just to on a case by case basis determine that extreme individuals are disruptive, in my opinion. Georgewilliamherbert 23:08, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

I think you misunderstand what I wrote: I stated specifically that the policy I am proposing would not ban any particular kind of speech. It would however prohibit using talk pages a particular way. I think there is a big difference here. Slrubenstein | Talk 23:30, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

I agree with Slr in some way.. we need some warning tags for keeping civility in talk pages, the Wikipedia:Talk page guidelines needs to be enforced so we don't have to be massing noticeboards with this type of "incidents" when one Admin can do the job after a set of warnings if the situation escalates. I don't know if those warnings already exist... the RfC is way too bureaucratic.. the warning tag will alert any Admin and this will end any type of dispute (same as vandals, create a CIVIL patrol). And.. I am not aware of some policies because I am usually editing articles and not being a policeman. By the way POVs in talkpages should be erased immediately... no room for replies.. just erase them that's how we got fourdee to stop editing in the FARC article--F3rn4nd0 ^{(Roger - Out)} 19:13, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

Someone is showing poor maths. 0.01% is 1 in 10,000 and Fourdee has made about a third that number of edits. It wasnt merely the fact that his statement was rascist it was the content, IMO wrongly claiming that people care more about the murder of white women than black women it was a really disgusting rascist attack, and I dont think there is anyway in the world where that is true anymore. Besides it wasnt the only rascist attack he made just the worst of them, he was being deliberately provocative and failed to apologise or show any remorse when challenged about his behaviour, instead claiming that disagreeing with his views was worse than his views themselves. I think a discussion elsewhere about policy changes arising from this incident would be welcome but here is not the place for that, SqueakBox 23:12, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

I disagree. Left-wingers often claim that because Americans are racist they do care more about the murder of white women than black women. Studies appear the confirm it. MoritzB 23:21, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

I am neither left, nor right, nor black, nor white. I am a wikipedian and should be treated w/ dignity as you may request for yourselves. Please have the courtesy to stop wikilawyering and whining about the block of fourdee. It is not about his golden plume; it is about his mouth. -- FayssalF - ^{Wiki me up®} 05:44, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

Left wingers can claim what they want (I'm a right winger myself) but without some good sources it means nothing. The Spanish police busted some nasty for murdering an African black prostitute from the Casa del Campo in Madrid and she wasnt Spanish either (it was on Discovery and I know that part of Madrid well) while the UK police in 2007 dont give less priority to black victims as anyone with a modicum of knowledge about the UK would realise. I have limited knowledge of the US but I think pursuing the path you seem set on isnt helpful, please reconsider, SqueakBox 00:37, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

Look, we can discuss the block all we want (for what it's worth, I support it), but it's a bit academic. He was blocked by Jimmy Wales - no admin is going to unblock him without Jimbo's say-so. As to the idea of a talk-page policy, I think it's instruction creep. The talk page guidelines are pretty clear, and in cases of egregious talk page abuse (like this one), blocks have been and will continue to be handed out. I would also suggest using the {{notaforum}} template on particularly troublesome talk pages and removing posts that blatantly violate the talk page guidelines. MastCell ^Talk 23:25, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

OK, was he banned because he's a racist or because some of you felt that he violated some obscure interpretation of WP:SOAP. This is pretty sad. I better clean up my user page, because I bitch about anti-evolution creationists, the LA Kings management, and how boring soccer is. Oh yeah, and I throw the f-bomb around quite liberally in my edit summaries. OrangeMarlin ^{Talk• Contributions} 00:55, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

Your examples are compleely different. You dont like anti-evolutionists and I dont like cannabis law enforcement but these are issues of personal choice whereas the fact that I am wehite and my wife is black arent a matter of personal choice, they are inherent to our being. That is an enormous differenc3e, so slag me off for being pro cannabis legalisation but dont dare do so because I am white, SqueakBox 01:01, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

MoritzB has a right to complain but he should complain to Jimbo, not us. Slrubenstein | Talk 23:30, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

Given he beat 2 respected admins to the block I would question that Jimbo should be held personally accountable for what was, at the end of the day, an excellent decision and entirely in line with his record as an admin and editor, SqueakBox 01:36, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

I endorse the creation of such a policy, I will not be able to work on it directly since I'm working with the assessment of a few hundred pages but I will gladly offer a review and some suggestions when a preliminary version of it is ready. Now about Forbee's block by now it should be considered a ban, there are few admins that will oppose Jimbo's block so the chances of it being lifted are almost non-existent. - Caribbean~H.Q. 23:59, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

It's already policy.--Chaser - T 00:02, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

A racist attack isn't the exact same thing as libel, for one they aren't directed at a person company or organizartion but to a complete ethnic group, what I meant to be clear is that I support the promotions of some of these guidelines to policy as suggested. - Caribbean~H.Q. 00:16, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

I've noticed lately much racist activity. Is there any particular reason? Are they taking advantage of the open nature of Wikipedia to propagate their unhuman and odd garbage? I've acted bold a month ago and indef one of this type of users User:Mariam83. Later on User:Phral appeared and he was indef by another admin that time after a long history of trolling and harassing others. And here we are now w/ User:Fourdee. It seems like racists are trying to hijack Wikipedia. Noway!! -- FayssalF - ^{Wiki me up®} 05:30, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

I agree, there was also User:KarenAER, these people seem to have a habit of coming back as sockpuppets frequently as well, see how many sockpuppets Phral has, indeeded Phral is a sockpuppet of Hayden I think. Possibly there is some sort of coordinated campaign, last year User:Sugaar came across a post on the fascist website stromfront discussing the White people article.[101] Maybe something similar has happened again? Alun 06:04, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Issue stemming from this

Speaking of not letting editors use talk pages as soapbox, can somebody go take a look here: [102] and give his or her uninvolved opinion? I've already removed it once (on the face of this discussion), but as I am involved personnally, I would rather let someone else judge this behavior (which I admit is the proper reflex I should have had the first time).--Ramdrake 00:29, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

As someone who'd never heard of either Afrocentricism or Dinesh D'Souza before reading this, I'd say that whatever you might think of the article, arguing that it be mentioned is at least a valid point; the author appears to be a significant political commentator on the neocon right & a Fellow at the Hoover Institution, not a lone-voice-in-the-wilderness crackpot. As long as the article makes it clear that D'Souza's views don't represent mainstream opinion, I don't see that it doesn't warrant a paragraph — iridescent (talk to me!) 11:59, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

Aside from anything else, I'd say it blatantly violated the copyright of a page clearly marked Copyright © 1999 Free Republic, LLC. (This is a strange oversight by its poster, whose writings in various talk pages show a keen interest in what is and isn't allowed in Wikipedia.) -- Hoary 12:24, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

Oh, I agree it should be deleted for the copyvio - thought Ramdrake was questioning whether or not the material should be mentioned in the main article — iridescent (talk to me!) 12:42, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

Actually, Free Republic is a discussion forum and does not own any copyrights to Dinesh D'Souza's work. Free Republic is careful to follow the copyright law and only allows to post copyrighted material which falls under the exemption fair use.

MoritzB 18:27, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

Even if it's fair use for Free Republic, it doesn't necessarily follow that it's also fair use for Wikipedia. 70.227.232.162 14:52, 31 August 2007 (UTC)