Talk:Adbusters

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First of all that line (on the discussion page) has to change as clearly there is a page called AdBusters.

My main concern is the article (particularly the last two paragraph) is biased, without counterpoint, against the efforts of AdBusters -- criticize the campaigns and the shoes if you must, but at least offer their rationale for balance.

Just curious, there seems to be a growing ammount of information on this page that really should be put on the Adbusters Media Foundation page as really, this is just an article on the magazine rather than the efforts of the media foundation, (I am aware that some of the stuff I've put on this page falls under this category) so should all of this miscategorized information be moved? or should the articles be merged seeing as it is commonplace to refer the the Adbusters Media Foundation as simply Adbusters? --E.D.Hedekar 14:38, 14 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Contents

[edit] Why was the page moved?

I subscribe to the magazine, as as far as i know they do refer to themselves as "AdBusters" and not as "Adbusters". I think that the page needs to be moved back so that the title reflects the real name of the publication. Beta_M talk, |contrib (Ë-Mail)

I've moved the page again, after thouroly (sp?) checking that i'm correct in my assertion that this is in fact the correct naming of the journal and the media foundation. Beta_M talk, |contrib (Ë-Mail)

I have a copy of the Nov/Dec 2005 issue (#62 vol 13 no 6). Other than the title on the cover (which is all caps), the contact box on the last page states the publication name as "Adbusters (ISSN 0847-9047)". DerwinMcGeary

It opens a can of worms when you start trying to capitalize or punctuate proprietary names according to the way the proprietors do it: see http://www.theslot.com/webnames.html. Because of this, I think Adbusters is better than AdBusters. Skookumpete 21:55, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Merged with Adbusters Media Foundation

Added the text and the category from the Adbusters Media Foundation.

--pgeoff 00:08, Dec 18, 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Change the current picture to one of the front covers of their magazine?

The current picture with the "UnBrand America" poster should be changed to one of their magazine issue's front cover. Why? It seems like posting the image of their advocacy poster seems like Wikipedia is promoting their cause according to my perception. I think it is just best to use a magazine cover such as [1] to keep sort of NPOV. --Anonymous Cow 06:42, 15 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I would disagree with that, since this article is no longer about magazine alone, but also about the Media foundation. Having a picture of a magazine would in itself be POV since that would create an implication that everything involving AdBusters is simply a wrapper around their periodical. But i would settle for a black dot or something like that. Beta_M talk, |contrib (Ë-Mail)
I disagree with the black dot, since it should go on the black spot article instead. As to the image being POV, well AdBuster's has a POV that should be expressed in the article. I felt the unbrand America image protrayed that most clearly. A magazine cover does not do that as well. - RoyBoy 800 06:05, 16 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Point taken. Yes, just keep the current image. Beta_M talk, |contrib (Ë-Mail)
I can now understand RobRoy's reason. I don't have a problem with the poster, now. --Anonymous Cow 17:00, 17 Mar 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Anti-consumerism?

Does anybody else find it odd how this supposedly anti-consumerist organization tries to sell you something at every turn? Perhaps this should be incorporated in the wiki page?

No. I don't really find it odd at all. I don't think about it. More than anything, I'm bored by your re-hashing of a very old, very worn, conservative-boilerplate critique of anyone who sells anything and yet also has the temerity to critique the system. How frigging creative of you. Did you work on this criticism up all on your own or did you secretly have help from mom and dad?

_Easy now. I thought it was a good point, even if you disagree, no need to freak out.

Wikipedia:Civility

[edit] Criticism section

This section sounds like somes personal rant. Can we get a citation for this? If we can't, I suggest removing this POV in disguise as objective writing. -- LGagnon 21:35, August 11, 2005 (UTC)

I agree. "Some critics say"-entries like this need to name their critics. -Willmcw 23:30, August 11, 2005 (UTC)

It doesn't say some critics say, it says some would argue, some would say..etc. Theres no need to change it, because theres nothing that suggest some acclaimed critic has said this. It's just providing a point of view. it makes clear that its a point of view. If you want to add a counterpoint to it go ahead, but according to wikipedia's rules i dont see why you should. Urthogie

Actually, in that case there's a very good reason to change it: to avoid weasel terms. -- LGagnon 21:43, August 12, 2005 (UTC)

Please you must site all sources for the arguments presented in this section or it will be removed, I'm all for criticism sections but as it stands now it is not worthy of an encyclopedia.--Fluxaviator 08:01, 13 August 2005 (UTC)

Notable or not, we need to know who the critics are. We especially don't want construction like "some would argue". If they do argue it, then we can include it. Part of the reason that we like to know the names of critics is to make sure that they exist, and that the criticisms are just the opinions of editors. Another reason is that then we can make sure the criticism is correctly summarized. Thanks, -Willmcw 00:47, August 15, 2005 (UTC)

I think the criticism section as it stands cannot be seen as NPOV. I'm not sure how to make my argument, but I know that siting Adbusters Pro-Palestinean stance feels like the author is suggesting being pro-Israel as the morally correct stance. I feel like the criticism section should be reserved for examples of an organization/person doing something unjust, not what controversial stances has an organization/person taken on two sided issues. Rocknjosie

OK. I've removed it outright. I'd encourage any editor who knows of specific criticisms to write an NPOV, sourced section which summarizes actual criticism. -Willmcw 17:13, September 6, 2005 (UTC)

And now it's back again, courtesy of Urthogie. I still don't see any proof that this isn't his personal rant. Mind giving us some proof you didn't invent the whole thing yourself, Urthogie? -- LGagnon 21:22, September 6, 2005 (UTC)

If these are "common" criticisms, there shouldn't be much difficulty in finding sources for them. -Willmcw 21:48, September 6, 2005 (UTC)
    • i cited three sources. and if you really want to be excessive and require more ill just start citing its own letters to the editors which feature these criticisms.Urthogie 15:05, 7 September 2005 (UTC)
The letters to the editors would be a better source. The guideline Wikipedia:reliable sources strongly urges against using blogs similar websites as sources. Of three sources you provided two are blogs and two are anonymous. Also, the sources do not support the assertion that there are four chief criticisms that start with Adbuster's stance on Israel and Palestine. Thanks, -Willmcw 20:05, September 7, 2005 (UTC)
      • Stay Free! is a nonprofit, Brooklyn-based magazine that explores the politics and perversions of mass media and American (consumer) culture. So ill keep that one and work on getting the others and the letters to the editor.
        • Can we find out who wrote the article in Stay Free!? -Willmcw 20:51, September 7, 2005 (UTC)
here ya go: its by Carrie McLaren as can be seen on this link[2]

[edit] References

Can we have proper citations for the references in the Criticism section? They should be done like the others in the Reference section. Also, we need to fix up the Issue 25 reference; it says nothing of the author, article title, or page number. -- LGagnon 17:42, September 12, 2005 (UTC)

I've re-written the criticism section to reflect the actual criticisms in the two sources provided. If we find additional notable sources then we can add their criticisms as well. -Willmcw 08:41, 13 September 2005 (UTC)
    • This page has come along way in a few weeks, i think its starting to look really good

[edit] Neo-luddism

This doesn't seem like a NPOV name for the section. Can anyone give an actual example of a technology that they are against? The claim that they are against new technologies is shaky without one. -- LGagnon 00:52, 30 September 2005 (UTC)

    • Maybe luddism isnt the right word. They are against alot of technologies, alot of which are new. In their old mission statement it says: "...we are anarchists, guerilla tactitions, neo-luddites, pranksters...". I think their new mission statement is different though. If there is a better term, or a better way to organise these beliefs, cool.
    • In defence of the Luddites they weren't against new technologies per se either - just the use of tech to strengthen the hand of employers in comparison to workers so it could be argued that it is NPOV. However most people associate "Luddite" with "anti-progress" so maybe not. Fence is comfy, thanksA Geek Tragedy 16:49, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] History of adbusters

Anyone know the when, how, who, why, and what of the histoy of adbusters?

  • i dont, i know their early magazines had faux advertisements, which i guess were hilarious
  • I mirror the same interests as the original writer.. most specifically, when did AdBusters start? This should be included in the opening. Xsxex 02:53, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Pictures

somewhere i read that all pictures on adbusters.org where fair use, but i just ran into [this] page, are we safe using the two pictures we have? i added a picture of a traffic ticket adbusters uses, but i bet theres WAY better pictures for culture jamming. Spencerk 20:58, 2 November 2005 (UTC)

Sorry about the slow response; that came from me and I attached it to this image description; as I received an e-mail saying that from the photography editor of the publication. - RoyBoy 800 06:27, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] cant find an adbusters article

Adbusters has responded to the criticism by The Rebel Sell in an issue sometime, and it would be great to get their response on here and the rebel sell page. Ive been looking like crazy for this article and can't find it. Its in the back where they review books sometimes, its a half-page... Can anyone else find it? Spencerk 23:36, 20 March 2006 (UTC)


[edit] Listing of Jewish Neoconservatives

The article previously said that AdBusters just denoted as Jewish those with Jewish-sounding names -- which insinuated a sloppy anti-Semitic research. There was no supporting reference for this claim. I just did a quick search on the individuals denoted by AB as being Jewish and it all holds up -- most of them have their own wikipedia articles that mention this. If one counter example can be found -- either one erroneously listed as being of the Jewish faith when they are not or one listed as not being Jewish but actually is -- please come forth. Until then, I have removed the insinuation of sloppy anti-Semitic-motived research. --70.48.240.111 17:55, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

  • i agree, i think the criticism should be made that the use or relavence of the article is contreversal, not that the article is inaccurate. good work Spencerk 19:08, 6 April 2006 (UTC)


[edit] Media Carta

The article currently states: "It is, however, unlikely that they will be successful, as both the Canadian and American Constitutions only restrict the government from infringing upon freedom of speech, not private individuals and groups." However, it also lists CBC as a defendant. The CBC is a crown corporation.--Sven Erixon 00:48, 3 June 2006 (UTC)


[edit] Encyclopedia article or manifesto?

I'm afraid I'm going to have to request/make an NPOV on this page. It reads more like a manifesto/mandate for the organization than an encylopedia article.209.169.114.213 04:39, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

I have to agree, there are a few sections which really reek of POV, and are not encyclopediac in any way. Wildthing61476 17:31, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Notability

I know this magazine and believe it is somewhat notable although on the fringe. It really needs independent sources to help its case for notability. However, it is quite ironic that a magazine that is critical of advertising is being accused of spam. MrMurph101 (talk) 03:04, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

Spam has a particular meaning when it comes to notability. Since this article does not have any major media coverage, its notability is in question. I have proposed it for speedy deletion since it is simply an advert for itself. Kyaa the Catlord (talk) 07:19, 20 November 2007 (UTC)
And before someone clicks the hangon button, please remember, you've had three years to find sources to establish the notability of this article.... Kyaa the Catlord (talk) 07:21, 20 November 2007 (UTC)
Although advertising is a speedy deletion criteria, this article does not fit it. It does need independent sources, but that alone does not qualify it as advertising. If you want to have it deleted, feel free to take it to articles for deletion. I went ahead and removed the speedy deletion request. Cheers, --TeaDrinker (talk) 08:15, 20 November 2007 (UTC)
Added to AfD. Nearly four years is plenty of time for this article to have found reliable third party sourcing. Kyaa the Catlord (talk) 08:29, 20 November 2007 (UTC)
  • Outcome of AFD was speedy keep due to reliable sources cited in the article. Please don't nominate sourced articles in future.Capitalistroadster (talk) 09:35, 20 November 2007 (UTC)
AfD nomitation was due to the suggestion of TeaDrinker and the end result was the addition of sourcing and an improvement to the article. If you had reviewed the article's history, you'd have seen this. Please be WP:CIVIL in discourse in the future, the patronizing tone is unnecessary. Kyaa the Catlord (talk) 10:14, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

What was stopping you taking five minutes to look for and add the sources yourself? There's enough of them out there as the AfD showed. Nick mallory (talk) 10:28, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

Well, had I been given the opportunity to respond to the now closed AfD, I'd have pointed out that the "700 hits on google" were nearly without an exception related to the odd tagging on the NYT's website. Take a look. There is no compunction that I work on any article I nominate for discussion. I noticed this page needed work, tried to add some clean up tags which were removed without having the problems fixed so I nominated it for deletion which in turn ended up with the start of the improvement of this article. I'm not personally interested in adbusters, adbusting or whatever this article is about, I'm interested in improving the encyclopedia by making contributions in areas I feel that I have some knowledge and desire to work on. Am I supposed to whine and complain and open DRV threads cause my nomination failed? Apparently. Being happy that the encyclopedia is improved is a BAD thing, I guess. Kyaa the Catlord (talk) 10:37, 20 November 2007 (UTC)
And for that matter, the depth of coverage needs to be considered. There are a few local appearing stories in Toronto, one article in the NYT, one article in the Guardian and two in Wired. Clearly this organization is not very notable due to the lack of being noted. Kyaa the Catlord (talk) 10:51, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Premature afd closure?

I've been gone for a day and an afd was closed per WP:SNOW after only 5 votes. I've seen afd's given much longer time and many more votes before the snow verdict. Now don't get me wrong, I would have leaned toward keep on the afd but believe it should have been open for at least another day and better justify SNOW and get more perspectives. MrMurph101 (talk) 05:06, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Antisemitism infobox

I'm not sure if this article deserves an {{AS}} tag on it. Looking at the article there could be information that implies Adbusters is antisemitic but it seems more of an accusation by some and nothing really overt coming from them. Also, I don't believe infoboxes need to be sourced. The source could be used somewhere in the article indicating any alleged antisemitism from this group. MrMurph101 (talk) 17:33, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] External ref template

I quickly looked over the article, while indeed many refs are Adbusters related; this is not unusual for an organization's article. Criticism and other sections do have relevant 3rd party sources. So I removed the template as unnecessary. - RoyBoy 03:12, 9 June 2008 (UTC)