Talk:Achaemenid Empire

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I found this very interesting at first: "Persia/Iran has never practiced slavery in its thousands of years of history, and was founded on respect and equality for all races and religions as Cyrus the Great's human rights declaration" But then I remembered that Herodotus wrote in 154. (Volume One):

"Hearing this on his way, Cyrus said to Crœsus as follows: "Crœsus, what end shall I find of these things which are coming to pass? The Lydians will not cease as it seems, from giving trouble to me and from having it themselves. I doubt me if it were not best[157] to sell them all as slaves; " Also the sentence I've quoted from the article sounds a little suspicious to me. Someone should definetly look into this. From what I've read it sounds like the ancient Persians did not take slaves as often as say the hellenes did, but that they have at times done so. Did any people that conquered lands in the middle east or mediterranean not take slaves?

ancient persia is quiet different from islamic period iran was occapied by arabs and their culture was

quiet different furthermore as any body knows herodot was from the defeated nation and any one khows that grees where imaginative and creative in making stories and myths its in some ways good but it makes them unreliable as historians! so why europians insist on using their stories as facts is weierd! nowadays homer stories is not used as an evidence in researches about ancient greeks religion. in Cyrus Cylinder the abolishment of slavery in ancient persia is proved.

grI haven't changed anything in the article but somebody probably should.

That needs to be taken out; it's simply not true. Iran clearly took slaves during Islamic times, and there is considerable evidence that the Sassanids took slaves as well. It is clear that the Achaemenid policy was against slavery, but one dynasty does not 2500 years make. I'm taking that line out unless someone can source such a claim. Spectheintro 02:41, 25 July 2007 (UTC)spectheintro


I took the lion image off. It suspiciously seems to be the same (digitally inverted) lion at the NY Metropolitan, which DOES NOT belong to Iran:

http://www.metmuseum.org/Works_of_Art/viewOnezoom.asp?dep=3&zoomFlag=0&viewmode=0&item=31%2E13%2E2

Furthermore, the style of the lion does not reflect the Achaemenid Artistic style. They (the Achaemenids) were more refined.

In place of it, I'll put another picture.--Zereshk 02:02, 11 Feb 2005 (UTC)

(Amir85): Mr Zereshk ,as you know there is an element in every article that makes it more appealing to read and it is the element of beauty.So stop reverting my work because of wiki-format , as if see other Wikipedia articles they sometimes use this type of photo arrangement for the sake of beauty or whatever.And about copyright violations , all the photos are fair copyrights with the permission of its source as long as I mention their site which I had done in SEE ALSO.

Dude, your pics look pretty nice, but if you dont mention the specifics of the source of your pics, the administrators will erase them. There are people whose job is just to hunt for pics with uncertain sources for deletion. Your pics dont even have copyright tags. They wont last very long.
Also, the admins will soon wikify your article, even if I dont do it. The way you have the photos stacked up left and right, they actually overlap on some screens. A jumbled up page doesnt look pretty at all.
Be cool.--Zereshk 11:56, 22 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Contents

[edit] Achaemenid Dynasty is NOT an empire

Please change the title of this article to the Achaemnid Dynasty. Achaemnid were a dynasty who ruled the Persian Empire, not a Empire! Please correct this immediately, both in the title and related links.

You didn't sign this, which you are supposed to do. I understand what you are trying to say; however, let me say this. In English "Achaemenid Empire" can mean "the empire under the Achaemenids" as well as "the empire of the Achaemenids." You wouldn't know which one until you saw the context. My guess is that English is not your first language, or you would have known that. English is the great language of not saying anything while seeming to say something (and books have been written along those lines as a joke). For example, to say "the Roosevelt government" does not mean that President Roosevelt abolished the constitution of the United States and formed his own government. It means only that his administration was functionng in government offices under that constitution for a while. You would have to know the history to know that the expression had that meaning. If not, you would have to ask, "what do you mean, the Roosevelt government?" Then you would expect to get some such answer as "the administration under President Roosevelt, dummy. Don't you read any history?" Now, the article makes it clear that there were not a series of Persian empires in the same way that there have been a series of French governments and I think everyone knows that. So, there is no danger I believe of misinterpreting the meaning. What does everyone else think? Shall we move the article to a different name?Dave (talk) 01:33, 1 January 2008 (UTC)
PS I took a more careful read and by golly the text may very well imply what you say. If it's any consolation, the writing ain't too good and will have to be cleaned up. Once that is done, what I just said above will be true. I still think we ought to collect opinions on this.Dave (talk) 01:42, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] remove weird text

I removed this text from the article because it's weirdly written and probably too NPOV:

This is a confirmation that the Charter of freedom of Humankind issued by Cyrus the Great on his coronation day in Babylon could be considered superior to the Human Rights Manifesto issued by the French revolutionaries in their first national assembly. The Human Rights Manifesto looks very interesting in its kind regarding the expressions and composition, but the Charter of Freedom issued twenty three centuries before that by the Iranian monarch sounds more spiritual.

Lethe | Talk 12:39, May 17, 2005 (UTC)

  • LOL! You're right, it is weirdly written! I'm too lazy to look up in the history and see who contributed that writing right now, but if it is to be included at all, I would suggest paring it down to a single, less POV sentence and sticking it on the last paragraph like so:
"The Charter of freedom of Humankind issued by Cyrus the Great on his coronation day in Babylon could even be considered more spiritual sounding than the Human Rights Manifesto issued by the French revolutionaries in their first national assembly 2300 years later."

--Codex Sinaiticus 15:32, 17 May 2005 (UTC)

But why should we want to compare the spirituality of Cyrus' declaration to that of the French Revolution? If we want to compare declarations of human rights, let's use a bunch, the American Declaration of Independence, the French Revolution's Declarations of the Rights of Man and of the Citizen (and let's call it by it's right name), the United Nations Universal Declaration of Human Rights. And as far as comparing these declarations go, let's compare the scope of the rights, not the spirituality of the text (which strikes me as rather irrelevant to the import of the declaration). I am not familiar with any of those declaration, so I'm not going to write a comparison. Even if I did, I'm not sure that this article is the right place for it.
I see that the article human rights contains a similar statement about Cyrus: " Cyrus's charter, adopted by the first Persian Empire is thought by some to be more advanced than the Human Rights Manifesto issued by the French revolutionaries in their first national assembly 2300 years later in the 18th century". It seems slightly more NPOV and that article seems a more germaine place to say such a thing, but even that is probably too NPOV, and I'm inclined to remove it from that article as well. Thoughts? -Lethe | Talk 21:17, May 17, 2005 (UTC)
It seems that originally User:Amir85 added this concept to the Cyrus Cylinder and Achaemenid dynasty articles, and from there User:Mehrshad123 added it to the human rights article -Lethe | Talk 21:33, May 17, 2005 (UTC)
The only thing "spiritual" about it is that it reflects the tolerant Zoroastrian religion. But nothing in the text of the cylinder is "spiritual" per se. The invocations to Ahura Mazda are more of a "Dieu et mon droit" formality. In any case these things should be put on the Cyrus Cylinder article, which I found out to be plagiarized itself. Khirad 12:12, 11 September 2005 (UTC)

[edit] language

In the beginning of the page I linked Old Persian. I also want to ask if there is a good reason why Avestan is there. I can see that the Avestan prefix hu- (good) might be related here, and ka (some one) and Avestan mana (mind) which is a cognate of the Skt. might work out. But Avestan was never the language of any dynasty. It was never even written down until the Sasanian dynasty. It was a liturgical language, and would have been foreign to someone from Western Iran anyway. Also, why is there a discrepancy between Hakamanishiya and Haxāmaniš? I'm not talking about the suffix -iya, but let's choose one transliteration system or another, shall we? The latter I feel to be more desirable as this is how you see the cuneïform transliterated. The caron over the 's' is optional. The Farsi should be hakhāmanshi or -ī. Khirad 12:12, 11 September 2005 (UTC)

Martinmuse 11:48, 23 January 2006 (PST): It seems that Avestan is relevant to the Achaemenid dynasty. They professed to be devout followers of Ahuramazda and Avestan is associated with Zarathushtrian scripture. I agree it would not be a conversational language, but would it be foreign to Western Iran at a time when the Achaemenids' influence extended so far to the east?

It's obviously relevant, just not the main spoken language. Sure, wherever Zoroastrianism was, Avestan would be there also, of course. I cannot recall, but I was probably talking about something specific at the time. Also, why is the current link in the table Persian? Is it possible to be a little more specific? We're not exactly talking modern Farsi here. Khirad 19:58, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Religion

The following I find amusing because it sounds exactly like the modern Indian stereotype of the Parsis. Besides amusing me though, I'm wondering what this adds to the article:

"The religion of the Achaemenids was Zoroastrianism, whose adherents at the time were noted for their dedication to clear lines of right and wrong, and for their apparent honesty."

If Zoroastrianism is to be reduced to a few insubstantial stereotypes, than tolerance and industriousness would seem more relevant contributions to posterity. I think this sentence would be improved if the people who noted this were mentioned (i.e. ...were noted by the Greeks...). Otherwise I don't see this as a NPOV statement. Plus it suggests that Zoroastrianism was the state religion. Khirad 12:12, 11 September 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Achaemenid's Pronunciation

In Farsi, does the ch in Achaemenid sound like \kh\, \sh\, or \k\?

--John on 27th of October 2005

It's "kh". In Persian (farsi) it is "Hakhāmaneshi".--Zereshk 06:08, 8 January 2006 (UTC)

As I have heard this pronounced multiple ways by professors, an uploaded sound file pronunciation of this word would be a great asset to this article. --Robert Jan. 11th, 2008 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 208.46.0.26 (talk) 21:06, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Origin of the "Achaemenid Empire" name

A user has pointed out by e-mail:

I have been researching several sources preparing for some church work, and find in THE WORLD BOOK ENCYCLOPEDIA, 1976 edition, Volume 15 (P), page 262c, that before Darius I, CYRUS THE GREAT of the Persian Empire (quote) CALLED THIS THE ACHAEMENID EMPIRE AFTER HIS ANCESTOR, ACHAEMENES (end quote). Article by Richard Nelson Frye.

Which is correct? L.H. Olsen ...

Hi! To the best of my knowledge (which unfortunately isn't all that good) Cyrus in general called himself an Achaemenid on his inscriptions.
See e.g. halfways down this [page :http://www.livius.org/a/iran/pasargadae/pasargadae3.html#inscription Livius.org]:
Kûruš \ xšâyathiya \ vazraka \ Kabûjiya 
hyâ \ xšâyathiyahyâ \  puça \ Haxâmanišiya \ 
thâtiy \ yathâ [...] 
[... ...] akutâ [... ] 

Cyrus the great king, son of Cambyses the king, an Achaemenid, 
says: When [...] made [...]
Hope this helps :-)
--FreezBee 14:53, 3 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Gaumata/Smerdis/Bardiya

Current trend is to consider the Behistun Inscription as covering up for a côup d'état, that is that the magus Gaumata really was Bardiya (= Smerdis in Herodotian Greek), the surviving son of Cyrus the Great. It's just the trend, and we do live in times where conspiracies are seen everywhere, so it may be false, but just for the sake of completeness....

--FreezBee 13:02, 5 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] much of what is now India?

The previous version had "Achaemenid rulers of Persia ruled over territories ... much of what is now India". I do not think this is correct, especially with respect to central, east and south India. I have accordingly removed India from the list, please cite sources if it is put back. Jayanta Sen 19:48, 23 April 2006 (UTC)

Unfortunately "most of ... India" was reinserted by someone who did not log in. It is factually wrong as can be seen from the map of the empire at it's greatest extent on the article page. Jayanta Sen 06:21, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

In almost every other large empire article page there is a stat regarding the size of the empire. I think it was important to add to the lead/intro at the top that Achaemenid Persia encompassed roughly 7.5 million squared km's and was as a result the largest empire of classical antiquity, so I included it. The stat is present in another Wiki page comparing thr historical sizes of the largest empires. --Arsenous Commodore 05:06, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Strange info: refernece needed

No reference is given for the following info in the text. I have never heard of these and I think proper citations are needed before we can accept them as facts (the numbered items are taken from the current text):

1. Xerxes I was followed by Artaxerxes I (465–424 BC), who moved the capital from Persepolis to Babylon.

What is the basis of this statement? First, someone has to prove that Persepolis has ever been the capital of the Achaemenid dynasty to begin with. Since no documents about political affairs have been found at Persepolis so far and also the palaces show no sign of continous occupation, it is doubtful that Persepolis has ever been a 'capital'. What makes the writer think that the capital had been moved to Babylon is unclear and unstated.

2. Under Artaxerxes I, Zoroastrianism became the de-facto religion of state, and for this Artaxerxes I is today also known as the Constantine of that faith.

Has the writer found a new inscription by Artaxerses I mentioning Zoroaster or a new contemporary Greek source mentioning that religion? There is no reference in Achaemenid documents to Zoroaster or his religion or his holy book Avesta. The most we can say is that they worshiped Ahura Mazda at least since Darius I, but that is way different with saying they were Zoroastrians. I know of no evidence of a religious change around the time of Artaxerses I and would love to learn abotu such change.

3. Artaxerxes I died in Susa, and his body was brought to Persepolis for interment in the tomb of his forebearers.

The tomb of Artaxerses I is NOT in Persepolis but in Naqsh-e Rustam, 30 km to the north of Persepolis. The writer has confused Artaxerses I with Artaxerses II here. There is also no such thing as 'the tomb of his forebearers'; each Achaemenid king had his own tomb and Artaxerse I was no exception.

4. Darius II was then in Babylon, where he rallied support for himself. He marched eastwards, disposed and put to death the assassin and was crowned in his stead.

Before he had killed the so-called assasin, the prince couldn't have been called by his throne name of "Darius II", but under his personal name of Ochus.

5. Artaxerxes moved the capital back to Persepolis, which he greatly extended.

There is absolutely no evidence of ANY construction in Persepolis during the reign of Artaxerses II, who is believed to have spent most of his time in Susa. Again Artaxerses III might have been meant here.~~mirfakhr —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Mirfakhr (talk • contribs) 22:21, 18 January 2007 (UTC).

[edit] Enlightened despots?

Under the "government section we have the statement "enlightened despots" describing the political mindset of this BCE empire. One click on the hyperlink brings me to a page describing these "enlightened despots" as merry fellows influenced by the period of "enlightenment" in the 18 and 19th century CE. Anachronism? Heck yeah! Can some expertly history buff please replace this term with a proper one please? Thanks! --non-member 20:12, 14 Febuary 2007 (UTC)

I am not an expert, but I think "federalist" (in the sense of power-sharing between central/provincial governments) is a better term for satrapy. The Achaemenids had great accomplishments, but "enlightened" offers them far too much moral approval.

--another non-member —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 192.104.192.58 (talk) 02:57, 15 March 2007 (UTC).

[edit] a problem with time

"His immediate successors were less successful. Cyrus' son Cambyses II conquered Egypt, but died in July 522 BC as the result of either accident or suicide, during a revolt led by a sacerdotal clan that had lost its power following Cyrus' conquest of Media. These priests, whom Herodotus called Magi, usurped the throne for one of their own, Gaumata, who then pretended to be Cambyses II's younger brother Smerdis (Pers. Bardiya), who had been assassinated some three years earlier. Owing to the despotic rule of Cambyses and his long absence in Egypt, "the whole people, Perses, Medes and all the other nations," acknowledged the usurper, especially as he granted a remission of taxes for three years (Herodotus iii. 68).

It is important to note that the claim that Gaumata had impersonated Smerdis, is derived from Darius. Historians are divided over the possibility that the story of the impostor was invented by Darius as justification for his coup [1]. Darius made a similar claim when he later captured Babylon, announcing that the Babylonian king was not, in fact, Nebuchadnezzar III, but an impostor named Nidintu-bel. [2]

According to the Behistun Inscription, pseudo-Smerdis ruled for seven months before being overthrown in 522 BC"

note that is says Cambyses died in july 522 bc, and then they say pseudo-Smerdis ruled for seven months, yet the year is still 522 BC —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.233.156.145 (talk) 21:15, 12 April 2008 (UTC)