Talk:Abu Taher
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wow, excellent work on this article. Hopefully, we can keep up the quality in other BD articles as well. -- Abid Ahmed 07:08, 21 March 2006 (UTC)
So Zia who he had freed ended up executing him. Wow.
[edit] References
This article needs verifiable references/citations from reliable sources. Right now, a lot of claims are made without any references being cited. Also, wikipedia does not allow any speculations or any "opinions" in the article ... see WP:NOT. --Ragib (talk) 19:02, 31 January 2008 (UTC)
- Dear Murad Kahn/Anon IP, these are not really any usable references (e.g. "Bureau of Prisons, Office of the DIGP/ Min.of Home Affairs", ""Sector Documents/1971/No.11 Sector/Liberation War, Ministry of Liberation War Affairs, Sher-e-Bangla Nagar, Dhaka, BD/Nov 2004"). If you really have the documents, please provide page numbers, publication dates etc. Also, DO NOT add personal commentary into the article (a bad example is "Over the past three decades Abu Tahers good name has been heavily politicised for ill gains by userpers and rumours spread through print media, speeches publications that he commanded and fought battles that he did not have any chances to participate in."). There are many sources that support Taher's participation in different wars ... so unless you come up with usable references, we can't really add your personal version here. --Ragib (talk) 11:05, 2 February 2008 (UTC)
- Again, I request Murad Kahn to look into the above and discuss the issues, rather than vandalizing existing references. --Ragib (talk) 18:16, 4 February 2008 (UTC)
An example of what is NOT a usable reference is : "Bureau of Prisons, Office of the DIGP/ Min.of Home Affairs". What publication? What date? What page? How do we verify it? --Ragib (talk) 18:18, 4 February 2008 (UTC)
Also, references from established sources have been provided ... removal of those is akin to vandalism. Already user Murad Kahn/Anon IP has broken 3rr. --Ragib (talk) 19:42, 4 February 2008 (UTC)
- Codron, Jérémie (October 2007). "Putting Factions 'Back in' the Civil-Military Relations Equation: Genesis, Maturation and Distortion of the Bangladeshi Army". Putting Factions 'Back in' the Civil-Military Relations Equation: Genesis, Maturation and Distortion of the Bangladeshi Army: Par. 20. Retrieved on 2008-02-02. “And Taher was personally difficult to ignore: the 'Taher bahini' was the first battalion to make its way toward the Pakistani army’s Dhaka Headquarters.” --Ragib (talk) 20:02, 4 February 2008 (UTC)
- Ahmed, Emajuddin (1988). Military Rule and the Myth of Democracy. Bangladesh: University Press, 84 (reference for Kamalpur battle). --Ragib (talk) 20:22, 4 February 2008 (UTC)
- Bio from Banglapedia: He was seriously wounded on 14 November 1971 while launching an attack on enemy camp at Kamalpur, known as the gateway to Dhaka. His left leg was blown off from above the knee.. --Ragib (talk) 20:42, 4 February 2008 (UTC)
By the way, the correct "otheruses" tag before vandalism by Murad Kahn is this::For the Buyid ruler of Hamadan see Shams al-Daula. --Ragib (talk) 20:40, 4 February 2008 (UTC)
[edit] Questionable references
I'm having some doubts about Murad Kahn's references (which he keeps reverting to). I'm listing the questions below:
- Ministry of Defense Gazette Notification No.8/25/D-1/72-1378, Dated 15 December 1973: A search on the Internet suggests it was the gazette notification for the gallantry awards given to the freedom fighters, with a simple list of names and awards. Then HOW exactly does this support your claim "Bangladesh Government Gazetted Records recently released have proven all claims to be politically fabricated."? I'm baffled!!
- "Quarterdeck - Directorate Ex- Servicemen's Affairs, Army HQ, New Delhi, 1976" -- What exactly is this publication? A search for ANY mention of this publication in Indian govt websites returns nothing. What exactly is this?
- "Bureau of Prisons, Office of the DIGP/ Min.of Home Affairs" - Is this a publication, or are you just citing names of Govt. offices at random?
- "Sector Documents/1971/No.11 Sector/Liberation War" , which according to your claim has Taher's own "testimony". May we have a page number, and some exact quotes please? According to the sworn testimony (in a court of law) of Colonel Taher in his memorial website, he fought in the Kamalpur battle, and this is corroborated by neutral 3rd party sources. So, definitely, I'd like to see that you really do have this document which we can verify. I don't think you have it, I'm sorry if I'm wrong.
So, I'd request Murad Kahn to clarify this. Wikipedia is not a place to glorify family members at the expense of verifiable referenced information. If you can provide verifiable info from reliable sources, we'd be happy to use those info here. Until then, your personal knowledge cannot be incorporated into this article. (and also, see conflict of interest policy, you're violating it here too). Thank you. --Ragib (talk) 03:04, 5 February 2008 (UTC)
[edit] Questionable references
I'm having some doubts about Murad Kahn's references (which he keeps reverting to). I'm listing the questions below:
- Ministry of Defense Gazette Notification No.8/25/D-1/72-1378, Dated 15 December 1973: A search on the Internet suggests it was the gazette notification for the gallantry awards given to the freedom fighters, with a simple list of names and awards. Then HOW exactly does this support your claim "Bangladesh Government Gazetted Records recently released have proven all claims to be politically fabricated."? I'm baffled!!
- "Quarterdeck - Directorate Ex- Servicemen's Affairs, Army HQ, New Delhi, 1976" -- What exactly is this publication? A search for ANY mention of this publication in Indian govt websites returns nothing. What exactly is this?
- "Bureau of Prisons, Office of the DIGP/ Min.of Home Affairs" - Is this a publication, or are you just citing names of Govt. offices at random?
- "Sector Documents/1971/No.11 Sector/Liberation War" , which according to your claim has Taher's own "testimony". May we have a page number, and some exact quotes please? According to the sworn testimony (in a court of law) of Colonel Taher in his memorial website, he fought in the Kamalpur battle, and this is corroborated by neutral 3rd party sources. So, definitely, I'd like to see that you really do have this document which we can verify. I don't think you have it, I'm sorry if I'm wrong.
So, I'd request Murad Kahn to clarify this. Wikipedia is not a place to glorify family members at the expense of verifiable referenced information. If you can provide verifiable info from reliable sources, we'd be happy to use those info here. Until then, your personal knowledge cannot be incorporated into this article. (and also, see conflict of interest policy, you're violating it here too). Thank you. --Ragib (talk) 03:04, 5 February 2008 (UTC)
- Ministry of Defense Gazette Notification No.8/25/D-1/72-1378, Dated 15 December 1973: A search on the Internet suggests it was the gazette notification for the gallantry awards given to the freedom fighters, with a simple list of names and awards. Then HOW exactly does this support your claim "Bangladesh Government Gazetted Records recently released have proven all claims to be politically fabricated."? I'm baffled!!
Let me Confirm your doubts or Baffle you a little more! So, it’s the internet websites that you are squarely basing historical facts on. What else… Page #’s, which lines, story books… as scholarly researched work by folks with very little information…based on non whatsoever official documented records….particularly with no references…no interviews with real participants either ? KEEP IT UP MY BROTHER
• "Quarterdeck - Directorate Ex- Servicemen's Affairs, Army HQ, New Delhi, 1976" -- What exactly is this publication? A search for ANY mention of this publication in Indian govt websites returns nothing. What exactly is this? Ans. My BAFFALED FRIEND, The Quarterdeck happened to be an official quarterly gazette of the Indian Army published by Ex- Servicemen's Affairs Directorate…well over two decades ago…oh might I add…off root publication of the Britsh Army, when there were no internet or websites…now you can wonder why would they know anything about TAHER!!. Too many things have changed…for eg. You name it!!! Oh! Here is something more for you to play with. Did you know or Would you deny that Indira (Nehru’s Kid) blacked out the press on all war issues. I don’t need an answer.
- "Bureau of Prisons, Office of the DIGP/ Min.of Home Affairs" - Is this a publication, or are you just citing names of Govt. offices at random?
My friend, like I said before this is not like picking fruit salad. You better start looking up official Gazzetted records of every public office related to the BD Independence War. And I am assuring you ALL THOSAE RECORDS ARE NOT BASED ON STORY BOOKS AND INTERNET RESOURSES!! THE ARE NEITHER BASED ON WHIMSICAL WRITERS OR POLITICIANS WITH AGENDAS. Every question you point to me proves even stronger that you have never done research work at any academic level or for any kind of gov’t or NPO/NGO. Be reminded I am certainly not going to the level you would like to take this to. It is your choice, don’t interpret THEM as mine. You can be baffled, bemused, appalled, astounded, mystified and rattled all at the same time.
• "Sector Documents/1971/No.11 Sector/Liberation War" , which according to your claim has Taher's own "testimony". May we have a page number, and some exact quotes please? According to the sworn testimony (in a court of law) of Colonel Taher in his memorial website, he fought in the Kamalpur battle, and this is corroborated by neutral 3rd party sources. THESE ARE CLAIMS, NOT BASED ON OFFICIAL RECORDS…MY DEAR, Are you trying to confuse me with your confusions or trying to fool me. • The JSD and the guys who put up these websites and wrote these so scholarly books that you might have as your worthy possessions which you so dearly uphold as your MIGHTY BASTIONS OF BLW HISTORY present the following and go around spreading and printing every little chance they get…THAT • Taher was sector commander from the beginning of the war till…and then they suddenly stop…Taher was wounded in a battle on Nov 14 71(knowing fully well that Taher was in Puna, India as of Nov 3rd 71.) ,] • That Taher planned, reconn’d, and conducted the Kamalpur Battle, Chilmari Battle, that Tahers leg was blown off in Battle, with NO References Whatsoever. But then all of a sudden when gazetted Information started coming out in Hamidullah Khan, Jalil, and Shawkat Jamil’s writings which were hair combed by the entire defense establishment including DU, CU, BD Historical Society and Mins. of Lib. War, Def, Information, …There chantings stopped. Oh! Incase you decide to Disagree with me, Hamidullah, Shawkat Jamil, Zia built Sector 11, has been there the entire time until the Sector was dissolved and dismantled, let alone the battles and raids Taher was meant to be conducting. • Again I say there were four Kamalpur battles. You wouldn’t be knowing where when and who organized, equipped, reconnaissanced, and the reasons...would you …with your scholarly resources?! Just a Question, that’s all. Hope I don’t baffle you!! • Taher went to DU Social Welfare and Research Inst. in 1959?!? Now why don’t you give me a break w/your wild pack of lies. Back in 1959 it was not even established into DU. It was a constituent college only for gov’t social workers(that means NO PUBLIC). Not until 1973 when real courses w/real degrees were offered. And this info is from no INTERNET…hope I didn’t break your heart… • So, definitely, I'd like to see that you really do have this document which we can verify. I don't think you have it, I'm sorry if I'm wrong…For GOD ALMIGHTY’S SAKE DON’T BE. Don’t be sorry TO ME for what you pick and choose to believe. Non of these are my claims or Taher’s testimony. Don’t get scared and confused of the truth and hit me on the head. Taher’s hand-written documented depositions (Not Testimony) at the several ministries concerned that have been gathered by the Min. of Lib.War Aff. over the years. Lot of hard earned efforts by hard working dedicated folks NOT Basing the Nations Facts on INTERNET WEBSITES and STORYBOOKS. Let me give you some more… Hamidullah, Shawkat Jamil, Zia did not write any storybooks. Jamil and Hamidullah wrote full account with all participants w/pics., dates times chronologically, who was where, they named local authorities, describing every move and effort, the areas fought, even Indian officials who might have been present, including the experiences they had with the locals, muslims and hindus. They went over and gave long depositions over the years on their true experiences of the war they conducted. Very unlike the resources Taher’s true contributions are distorted by and ghastly over exaggerated. • And If I might nevertheless add, their word was not taken for granted by the guys who started these research projects over last three decades. Lib.War history gathering facts started in the late 70’s officially, regardless who was in power in BD. Almost three decades in the making,, was combed several times over. After all matched and made SENSE (realistic and military)! They are being gradually gazzetted and supplied to research, educational and historical institutes. • Let me tell you what else BD does not buy, 30 million women raped and killed….like it is possible with all types of ultra modern weapons even in lets say a year to kill and rape so many. then all the 80 to 90 thousand troops spread across BD…where actually fighting in different sectors and firing bullets or getting laid. They must’ve taken turns. • Out of less than 7 Crore over a Crore people vanished over the border with their gathered belongings and family members managed to find their path geographically towards the Indian borders within 9 months, without starving. And they were camped and fed and assisted. No proof whatsoever by ANYONE. Did you know Kler made a quiet visit through the Indian Embassy in 1993 at Dhaka. They were some taped interviews of Jamil, Kler and Hamidullah. Not a single invited AW guest showed up. And there was a human storm at two offices. I’ll mention one…JSD HQ…and the other..take a wild guess!! Here is some HW for you…or let us just call it research. • Last but not least Taher was released from the Army as LT.Col. Taher received a Compassionate Promotion under Army Special Rules/(Disability).He was never a full Colonel nor was he (AG) adjutant general. From Major to AG!! When an officer is inducted in the military or reinstated, they w/their service files are under the office of the AG. AG is the one who posted Taher to 44 Bn, unless Taher did it himself while AG…So many things were possible then I guess w/o the internet around. All Battalion Cmdr’s are Lt. Col’s. Taher could not accept four post demotions or promotions from AG to BC (Battalion Commander). From Major to Lt.Col. to Col. to AG then back to Bn.Cdr and out the door with a retirement even w/o LPR, then transferred to Narayanganj Division Dredger Project, BWDB in just 4 months. Lets wonder whose Army or Gov’t .was he in. Something non of his promoters talks or writes about. • At the time there were over forty officers senior to Taher posted at HQ. The AG(Adjutant Gen), QG(Quartermaster Gen), SC(Staff Commandant), JAG(Judge Advocate Gen), CG Staff(Chief of the Gen Staff). Let me clarify you a bit more, the AG of the Army is like the Secretary of the Min.of Establishment or Like Director of GSA(General Services Administration -USA). One is no longer Field Officer once he/she become senior enough to be AG. Minimum Brigadier and above. 14 in all at the time at AHQ 1971, all accounted for by post and appointment. • There are a series of seriously doctored pictures in the website you hold so dear. A bunch of pictures w/ a local AW leader shown as a cabinet minister w/Taher. Then another bunch of pics. showing Taher w/rank insignia of a captain in 1972 in BD post LW. And also with Pakistan Army Logo on his Head Gear AND Pak Army Paratrooper badge. And a Burgandy Beret. No BD Army Unit had a or now has a Burgandy Beret.Not a single identifiable picture of Taher at Kamalpur. A bunch of those pics. at the DDP with employees with Taher resting on his walking stick disguised as addressing his troops all clad in white shirts and black pants, incl. Taher w/no arms. • You are one amusing fellow. Any credible reader will really laugh at your beautiful work. I warned you, you will undermine Wikipedia. As is already established, internet websites are scoffed upon as reliable and credibly researched work. They are not accepted in academia what so ever. And like the ones before…you better erase all this too or copy paste it post-haste and then read it, before someone really start getting the picture. Again…Shame on you, Ragib!! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 221.188.19.210 (talk) 13:21, 5 February 2008 (UTC)
• Would you mind please telling me what is the valid legal difference and weight BETWEEN the political books and the internet resources (by Taher’s former party) you chose (which are confidently held verifiable resource by yourself) regardless of its quality and source AND the gov’t. publications below that has been compiled over the years and distributed to all research and credible institutions but considered non verifiable as they are not on the internet
Ministry of Defense Gazette Notification No.8/25/D-1/72-1378, Dated 15 December 1973; Sector Documents/1971/No.11 Sector/Liberation War, Ministry of Liberation War Affairs, Sher-e-Bangla Nagar, Dhaka, BD/Nov 2004; Bangladesh Army, Personnel Services Directorate - Records Office; Quarterdeck - Directorate Ex- Servicemen's Affairs, Army HQ, New Delhi, 1976; Bureau of Prisons, Office of the DIGP/ Ministry of Home Affairs; Ministry of Information/Public Records Directorate/National Affairs Bureau. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Muraad Kahn (talk • contribs) 12:05, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
You are yet to answer any of the questions mentioned above. For example, you didn't explain how your statement/comment was supported by the gazette notification 8/25/D-1/72-1378 (which seems to be merely a list of gallantry awardees). Please clarify this. You also need to provide page numbers for any publications you cite.
As for your last question, no information seems to be collected solely from Taher's memorial website.
Also, please restrict your comments to content rather than other editors. --Ragib (talk) 16:54, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
