Talk:Abu Nidal

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Contents

About Abu Nidal's ideology: can we really attribute a consistent ideological position to him? I don't think so, but more information would be welcome. Mswake 16:06 Aug 19, 2002 (PDT)

Is the Lockerbie bombing known to be an Abu Nidal operation? CNN does not list it. http://www.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/meast/08/19/abu.nidal.attacks.ap/index.html Rmhermen 09:02 Aug 21, 2002 (PDT)

It's "been attributed" to him, but I admit I don't know how reliably. Delete it if you like, but if so we need to do it on some solid evidence. Mswake 12:50 Aug 21, 2002 (PDT)
Who has attributed it to him. I couldn't find any websites that said so. Only that he and the Lockerbie bombers were in Libya at the same time. Rmhermen 12:55 Aug 21, 2002 (PDT)
I found one that did, which is why I put it in - but I've taken it out now, since your raising of doubt seems enough to me not to include it. Thanks for spotting this.

Reverted "activist" to "terrorist" - I know one man's terrorist is another's activist, but I think "Palestinian activist" implies a consistent ideological position, rather than the "essentially mercenary" man we describe later in the article. Mswake 21:22 Feb 11, 2003 (UTC)

[edit] Abu Nidal Was A Mossad Agent

Nidal was created by Israel to portray the Arabs as hijackers and terrorists. This laid the groundwork for accepting Arabs as the orchestrators of 9/11. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.12.194.210 (talk) 14:30, 17 September 2007 (UTC)


[edit] Within/associated with

Hi Grace Note, thanks for the edit. I think the fedayeen who became Black September were actually within Fatah, not just associated with it, though you're right to say the latter is probably safer and more NPOV. I can't find anyone to quote to you because I'm sitting here with half a dozen books open doing the rewrite, and now that I need it, I can't find the right place. They weren't just Fatah, though: they came from the entire rejection front: DFLP, PFLP, and later PFLP-GC, and as I hope to go on to say, the Abu Nidal group. If I can find the source, I'll put it here for you. SlimVirgin (talk) 03:02, Apr 19, 2005 (UTC)

Please note the following from Black September, added to that article by an editor called, let me see, erm, SlimVirgin seems to be the chap:

"In his book Stateless, Saleh Khalaf (Abu Iyad), who was Arafat's chief of security and a founding member of Fatah, wrote that: "Black September was not a terrorist organization, but was rather an auxiliary unit of the resistance movement, at a time when the latter was unable to fully realize its military and political potential. The members of the organization always denied any ties between their organization and Fatah or the PLO." (my emphasis).Grace Note 03:23, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I know that Benny Morris, the Israeli historian, has said BS were largely Fatah (and he is fairly even-handed). Mohammed Daoud, who says he led the Munich operation for BS, says they were Fatah (and he definitely was), and I believe (though I can't currently find it) that Patrick Seale says it too, using Abu Iyad as his source, but I'll have to check this. But I'm fine with associated anyway. SlimVirgin (talk) 03:30, Apr 19, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Wikifying years

Arre, just a small point: we're not supposed to wikify years on their own. People do it because they think the Manual of Style advises it, but in fact it advises not to. When it's month, day, year, that should be wikified so that people's date preferences show up correctly i.e. November 12, 2005, but not 2005 on its own. SlimVirgin (talk) 09:28, 12 November 2005 (UTC)

Ah? Okay, I saw others doing it, so I started myself too. It does look weird, though. I'll stop from now on. Thank you. Arre 09:45, 12 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Seale

I reverted Marsden's deletion of Seale, because he's Abu Nidal's best known biographer, a highly respected mideast expert, and the comment is attributed. He doesn't need to be a psychoanalyst to recognize that Abu Nidal was a psychopath, certainly in layman's terms and probably clinically, and that his childhood may have had something to do with it. SlimVirgin (talk) 01:42, 2 December 2005 (UTC)

What is the point of attributing the opinion to Seale if the opinion is only at layman's level? If a layman, such as the typical Wikipedia reader, can reach the conclusion based on the evidence, then shouldn't the article just present the evidence rather that giving an opinion from someone who has no particular expertise on the matter himself? Fill out the evidence, Slim. A psychologist's opinion that Abu Nidal is a psychopath would be encyclopedic; Seale's opinion on the matter is worth no more than any typicel reader's. There is no lack of evidence of Abu Nidal's behavior that any reader might use to decide -- with as much professional authority as Patrick Seale -- what manner of person Abu Nidal was. Marsden 02:04, 2 December 2005 (UTC)
Also, I take it that the "He later came to despise women" statement is from Seale. Please make that clear. This does not require a professional opinion, but it is clearly more encyclopedic to indicate where a particular judgement comes from. Marsden 02:08, 2 December 2005 (UTC)
I assume you've stalked me here, so you'll forgive me for finding it hard to assume good faith. Patrick Seale is one of two biographers of Abu Nidal whose work is regarded as the gold standard on him. For that reason, if he says in his book that, in his opinion, evidence suggests that Abu Nidal always wanted to be a ballerina, we may put that into the article, so long as we attribute it. We find respected experts in the field, and then we run with what they say. We don't pick and choose which aspects of the subject we personally regard them as experts on, because that would be original research. SlimVirgin (talk) 02:10, 2 December 2005 (UTC)
Deciding that Abu Nidal always wanted to be a ballerina does not require or imply a professional opinion; deciding that Abu Nidal is psychopathic and that this is likely due to his unhappy childhood does. And anyway, there is already a quote from the Guardian, which clearly is not an authority on psychology, that he had become a psychopath; it is not so clear that Seale isn't either, though in fact he isn't. The article shows his adult behavior and his childhood situtation. Truly, Slim, the article is better if you don't try to steer the reader to a particular interpretation based in no more expert authority than the reader himself can supply -- what do you think when you read an article that tries to point you to conclusions? My reaction is generally to wonder whether or not the basic facts themselves haven't been massaged, and I'm sure I'm not alone in this. Don't let your animus lead you to making the article less good than it could be. Marsden 02:31, 2 December 2005 (UTC)
I'm not going to revert this again, but you really have made the article less encyclopedic than it could be. It's on your head. Marsden 02:35, 2 December 2005 (UTC)
Every single authoritative source on Abu Nidal comments on his psychopathic personality, and speculates as to the reasons because it was so marked in him. He operated with no hint whatsoever of conscience, personal allegiance, loyalty, love, or respect for any other human being so far as those who knew him are aware. He suspected even his own wife of working for the CIA. Journalists; academics; members of his organization; Arab, Israeli, and Western intelligence officers; members of other Palestinian groups: they all said the same thing about him. It would be obtuse to leave it out of this article. SlimVirgin (talk) 02:46, 2 December 2005 (UTC)
And yet no one with any expertise in psychology, apparently. Marsden 02:54, 2 December 2005 (UTC)
What do you suppose an expert in psychology would do that everyone else who knew him hasn't done? You seem to think a diagnosis of psychopathic personality disorder is a finely tuned instrument. It's quite the opposite. SlimVirgin (talk) 03:12, 2 December 2005 (UTC)
Actually, my inexpert guess is that an expert in psychology would pretty quickly decide that Abu Nidal had a paranoid personality disorder, which is far more consistent with his behavior (I think) than an antisocial personality disorder. And easier to diagnose, I would also think, because it requires a less thorough understanding of his internal mental state. Are you certain that you understand what an antisocial (psychopathic) personality disorder implies? I can't imagine how you could think it would be easily diagnosed. I encourage you to do a very little research on the matter if you think I'm wrong. Marsden 04:25, 2 December 2005 (UTC)
Yes, I know what it implies. I've said more about it on Talk:Self-hating Jew. SlimVirgin (talk) 04:26, 2 December 2005 (UTC)

FYI: [1] Marsden 05:00, 2 December 2005 (UTC)

Thank you for finding this. We can certainly add it as a view along with Seale's. However, although here's no doubt he was paranoid, that's not the same as suffering from paranoid personality disorder. This page includes the DSMIV description. PPD would not explain the extreme violence and the ease with which he was able to kill people close to him. SlimVirgin (talk) 06:38, 3 December 2005 (UTC)
??? Seems to me that PPD would explain it very well. Marsden 18:16, 4 December 2005 (UTC)
Seems to me, Marsden, that you have amused us long enough. Could I suggest that you go forth straightaway and employ your undoubted skills at the two-times table?Phase1 22:09, 4 December 2005 (UTC)
Suggest whatever you like, Phase. I won't pay it any mind. Marsden 22:48, 4 December 2005 (UTC)

It seems clear even to my inexpert eyes that Abu Nidal really wasn't a "psychopath" -- there are worse things in the world than a "psychopath." Abu Nidal pretty clearly had a severe paranoid personality disorder, and this is largely incompatible with "psychopathy:" the paranoid views other people as powerful, motivated, and adversarial; the "psychopath" views them as pieces of furniture. The term "psychopath" has a journalistic sense that is inaccurate, and this is clearly the sense in which the Guardian used the term, and probably the sense in which Seale used the term (if he even used it -- are we sure that some Wikipedian didn't paraphrase his actual words? A direct quote, given that what is attributed to Seale now is likely wrong, would be better.). But encyclopedic standards should be higher than journalistic standards; someone called a "psychopath" in an encyclopedia ought verifiably to have traits consistent with an antisocial personality disorder. Anyway, it's on your head, Slim. Marsden 13:47, 2 December 2005 (UTC)

And what's my "animus"? SlimVirgin (talk) 02:47, 2 December 2005 (UTC)
Your animus is that which makes it difficult for you to assume good faith. Marsden 02:54, 2 December 2005 (UTC)
No, it's your behavior that causes that. SlimVirgin (talk) 03:12, 2 December 2005 (UTC)
And now your animus has caused you to make that comment. ;) Marsden 13:47, 2 December 2005 (UTC)
It was your behavior that caused that comment too. SlimVirgin (talk) 06:38, 3 December 2005 (UTC)
I just went to add something using the article you linked to as a source (from military.com), but it's currently off-line. I intend to add it when it's back on. SlimVirgin (talk) 07:01, 3 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Factual observations

Is "ruthless terrorist" a factual observation?Phase1 23:46, 28 January 2006 (UTC)

Quite clearly it is not a factual observation. Magabund 10:45, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Homeless children make bad terrorists

First, I would like to suggest using less charged word than "terrorist", like "militant" or smth (yes, I believe that he was a mercenary who essentially stamped others operations, but charged words do not help). Second I wanted to point out that sentence "The al-Banna family lost their orange groves, which were confiscated by the new Israeli government, and fled to the al-Burj refugee camp in Gaza" does look a bit vague. If we talk abot "ruthless terrorist" then sure we should talk about ruthless enemies who expelled this guy from home when he was a child. So what exactly happened to their home? Did jews expel them? Did jews rob them of their belongings? Etc. those questions should be better answered. Magabund 10:54, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

If you have a reputable source for those details, by all means provide it. As for the word "terrorist," I use it sparingly, but in this case, he was as a matter of cold, hard fact regarded by pretty well everyone, Arab and non-Arab alike, as a ruthless terrorist, so it would be somewhat obtuse of us to hunt around for a kinder word. SlimVirgin (talk) 11:36, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
Theres a NYTIMES article that talks about the family being 'forced into exile' [2] i think part of the problem here is with people reading different things into the semantics of words; fleeing somewhere isn't necesarrily the same as being forced out (white flight could be said to be an emotive example of the former but not the latter). I'm going to change the sentence
'The family fled Jaffa and moved into their house near Majdal, intending to be away from Jaffa for only a few days, but the Jewish militias arrived in Majdal too, and they had to flee again.'
to
'The family were forced to flee Jaffa and moved into their house near Majdal, intending to be away from Jaffa for only a few days, but the Jewish militias arrived in Majdal too, and they were forced to flee again.'
I admit the change is subtle but i think its the type of critcism magabund or others may be aiming at.Zaq12wsx 05:12, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Shlomo Argov

The attempted murder of Shlomo Argov should be mentioned. Vints 10:20, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Request for better category

Currently, there is a Category:Palestinian terrorist incidents in Europe category, but the majority of the incidents included are actually attacks by the Abu Nidal organization or attacks that are suspected to be connected to Abu Nidal. Abu Nidal, while you can say he is Palestinian, he is really a unique character who did many of his later attacks for reasons that were not connected to the Palestinian national struggle (such as his mercenary work for Libya.) Would it be possible to create a new category something along the lines of Category:Abu Nidal Organization or something similar for these attacks and alleged connections rather just blindly associating these attacks with the Palestinian cause? I am likely to make this change unless anyone objects. --Abnn 04:34, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Also was the Abu Nidal Organization responsible for the Silco incident? Right now the Silco incident article just uses the generic term "Palestinian terrorists", but there are some hints that it is actually connected to Abu Nidal. I would like to specify exactly which organization was responsible for that attack if possible. --Abnn 04:44, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
I am now chatting with the creator of that category here Category_talk:Palestinian terrorist incidents in Europe. --Abnn 00:19, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Explanation for my revert

Slipperybeans, the link you keep adding isn't appropriate. First, it seems to be a personal website. In addition, everything in it that's accurate is contained in other articles; the rest contains serious errors and insults e.g. referring to one head of state as syphilitic (writing from memory). SlimVirgin (talk)(contribs) 22:44, 15 August 2007 (UTC)