Talk:Abstinence-only sex education

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[edit] Early comments

Made link from Sex education: US article. Am tempted to add stub template. Anybody got comments?

The 37% failure rate fact is odd, considering that the FDA lists their failure statistics for testing condoms here ([1]), and none of them show anything near 37%. I think that, barring some kind of citation on that purported fact, it should be removed from this entry. --Patswanson 21:10, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

rofl at downplaying effectiveness of protection. those amish are so zealous—The preceding unsigned comment was added by TheWorldWideWeb (talk • contribs) 9:16, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] NPOV Problems

Both the first paragraph and the criticism paragraph are obviously POV biased against Abstinence only sex ed. Full disclosure: so am I! However, it would help this article to attempt to represent the other side's view a bit more fairly. Charlie 00:02, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

I agree. Maybe there should be a section on "Arguments for". For example: abstinence is the best way to avoid pregnancy and STDs, contraceptives often fail, mixed messages encourage risky behaviour, promotes of self respect and respect for others, counteracts peer pressure or pressure by the media. There could also be quotes from abstinence-only supporters. These are just a few things i came up with off the top of my head, and i'm not even in favour (support for abstinence as a positive option, yes - holding back useful info from teenagers, no). Fionah 14:39, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
I found the PBS link in the main sex education article and added a sentence about proponents' views. I don't really agree with them myself but the viewpoint needs to be presented fairly; hopefully this gives a start on getting balance. Fionah 08:45, 3 April 2007 (UTC)
I've tried to balance it a little more. The intro still isn't perfect, and you're right that it needs an "arguments for" type of section to balance it out (I would especially like to see reactions of "abstinence-only" supporters to the 2004 study that pointed out that most of the federally-funded programs contained embarassing and sometimes alarming scientific errors and misleading or outright erroneous statements about STD prevention and the consequences of abortion; I haven't seen any, but I'm sure at least one out there has probably said "We need to fix the programs or stick with the two accurate ones, but that doesn't mean the basic idea behind the program is wrong", or something very like that). I think it is at least a little better than it was, but my problem is that I don't quite "get" the full-on abstinence-only position, and know no one who does, so I don't know where to look so much for notable quotes from supporters and such. I sort of understand the reasoning behind it (you don't want to encourage teens to have sex, etc.), but, the implementation... I don't know.
I also would like to know how many sex ed programs in general cover rape kits. I was shocked to even learn they existed - after I had graduated high school, and then only because I saw it on TV! NONE of my sex education, from fifth grade on up through high school, ever mentioned it. I realize they're mostly concerned with us going out and getting knocked up of our own volition (which probably happens more often, and is something we and they have more potential to control), but a young woman or even man (because they get sexually assaulted too, once in a while) NEEDS to know what to do in case of rape, not just "call the police to report the rape", but to expect and ask for a rape kit (and to not shower or change clothes, etc., before they have it done). I'm also wondering if any sex ed classes even broach the morning after pill, and how accurately they describe its use and effects (I can guess on how the abstinence-only folks would react, but...). I know we didn't have any mention of it, but I think it either wasn't in existence then, or was still experimental, and the closest thing was the "abortion pill" that came before it, RU-whatever, that was never mentioned either.
I'm actually growing to suspect that I underwent (in school, not home) "abstinence-only" sex ed, albeit with a teacher who was a little more earnest about sex than such programs dictate. I wonder how many of the kids who have to go through these programs actually know that it's an abstinence-only program they're in? Does anybody know? Runa27 17:50, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Discrepancy

"Abstinence only sex education is a form of sex education which emphasizes abstaining from sex, often to the exclusion of all other types of sexual and reproductive health education, particularly regarding birth control and safe sex. [emphasis added]"

Doesn't the only imply to the complete exclusion of other info? SeanMon 00:36, 27 December 2006 (UTC) (sorry, I forgot to sign initially)

I disagree, without that statement it makes it appear that it only emphasizes abstinence.Quincybuddha

Exactly. See "abstinence-only" could just as easily refer to say, "abstinence is the only effective way to prevent all those nasty STDs and pregnancy, but there are some other methods sometimes used, and here's how you use them". Instead, abstinence-only does not include instructions on say, condom use. As redundant as it sounds to many people, for clarity's sake, the phrase should stay! Runa27 18:02, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] More NPOV Problems

"It has been noted that the same people who encourage Creationism to be taught in American Schools also encouage abstinence-only sex education." I don't think this is necessarily true, and there is no evidence to back it up. I'm removing it. Also, do we really need the family guy reference? Flutefreek 07:09, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

I think it's necessarily UNtrue, either, but lacking a source it is enough to note they are conservatives, especially with such dangerously vague language such as "the same people" (as opposed to say, "many of the same people"), which implies ONLY Creationists support abstinence-only sex ed, which I doubt is true.
However, the fact that many of the federally-funded abstinence-only programs come from religious organizations is absolutely true, and already has a source within the article: the 2004 study that noted the factual errors in many of the common abstinence-only programs brings it up, though mostly in its own reference notes. Runa27 18:08, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Moved paragraph

I've moved "Critics consider the promotion of abstinence-only sex education as one of the major efforts by the religious right to suppress sexual activity other than that which occurs between the parties to a lifelong, monogymous relationship" to the criticism section.

I want to ask if anyone support today the POV banner (after some changes). The article it's too short but I dont think there's a POV problem.IsmaelPR 21:18, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

Definitely do not remove the NPOV banner! Even a woolly liberal like me can see it's very unbalanced towards critics. Keep the criticism section, but expand on the reasons for (you don't have to agree with them!) Fionah 14:42, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
I kept the moved comment in the criticism section, but not mentioning the criticism at ALL in the intro seems unbalanced, as one of the most notable things about abstinence-only sex ed is how controversial it is (at least in the U.S.), so I did mention it briefly in the intro tweaks I made. I also noted that abstinence itself isn't a very controversial thing (nobody disputes that not having intercourse will help keep you non-pregnant, or that not engaging in sexual activity with other people prevents the spread of many or most STDs), it's the abstinence-only approach to sex ed that's controversial. Somehow it seems a little more balanced that way, though the intro is still not perfect and we definitely need a "arguments for" section to balance the fact that we've got a whole section (and a mostly excellent one at that) for Criticism. And, arguably, it should go before the Criticism section (which is fairly typical of Wikipedia entries; it's usually a good idea to show what something's about before getting into the criticism of it, which may not always make as much sense without knowing where the proponents already stand on it). When it goes in, anyway. Runa27 18:17, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Implications for LGBT People

I added that the message that sex should only occur within the confines of marriage has serious implications for people who do not wish to be married, or cannot be married, especially gay people. I can easily find quotes for this, it is a major criticism of abstinence-only education and I was shocked that it wasn't mentioned anywhere in the article (abstinence-only typically doesn't even mention gay people at all except for discussions about AIDS). It was a huge part of what I learned about abstinence-only in my college human sexuality classes - straight kids are getting misinformed, but gay kids are getting downright disenfranchised and told almost no information that would ever be relevant to their lives.

Quotes would help. However I also think it's self-explanatory and doesn't necessarily require a quote to back it up, it can be pretty easily logically deduced by the definition of abstinence-only as promoting marriage as the expected context for sexual relationships, along with the obvious fact that gay marriage is illegal in most countries.Rglong 08:09, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

Especially given that the main article for sex education includes a whole section on that. :) Oh, and I linked to same-sex marriage in that section here, because it made sense. Runa27 18:19, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Removing bias in criticism section

The first two sentences of the criticism section seem NPOV right now, but after that the section strays into bias. The positions of critics should be characterized and sourced; there should not be arguments for or against those criticisms in the article. Studies should only be cited if there is going to be a much more in-depth history of the issue written. Right now the criticisms outweigh the discussion of the actual programs.--emw 04:51, 28 April 2007 (UTC)

It strays into bias how? (I hope I don't sound aggressive here, I just sort of fail to see how it's too biased for WP, given that if it's accurate and truthful and tries to represent both sides, it is technically NPOV, which basically means that the Criticism section itself can't be biased, since it is merely meant to detail the criticisms levied against the AO sex ed programs; the article on the other hand, is still somewhat biased only because still no one has gotten off their butt and written the "arguments for" section to show both sides in-depth). The information may not be rosy, however up until the last paragraph at least it is 100% accurate and cited to a recent (2004) study (the 2007 study is mentioned, but never cited directly though it should be, and following the reference to the sex education article has thus far been somewhat fruitless, though I haven't looked through that article's references just yet). Is it bias if it's accurate? In the Criticism section? I don't think so, not if we're trying to create an accurate encylopedia entry. That said, it probably seems more biased because nobody has yet added a "Arguments for" section, and I'm going to see if I can either hunt up some material for it or hunt up someone else who can.
However, I would like to know the following, Eric:
  • What do you mean by "the positions of critics should be characterized and sourced" given that that implies to me that there are no sources for the criticisms, which is wrong because the 2004 U.S. government survey of a number of popular AO curricula is very critical of, if nothing else, the execution of these specific programs? And how can a position be "characterized"? I'm not sure what exactly you're asking for here. I'd appreciate it if you were more specific.
  • "There should not be arguments for or against those criticisms in the article" - again I am not sure exactly which portions you are supposed to be complaining about here. It would be more beneficial if you were less vague. Where exactly do you see "arguments for or against those criticisms"? Keep in mind that stating the results and findings of a study when speaking of that study is not inherently an "argument for or against those criticisms", so long as it is worded such that it is clear that it is true in the context of the particular study (that is, statements of what the study found to be true). That is the closest I can come to finding "arguments for or against" anything that don't serve the purpose (or at least attempt to serve the purpose) of presenting both general sides of the controversy, even if it's only one of the two sides just yet.
  • "Studies should only be cited if there is going to be a much more in-depth history of the issue written" - this statement alarms me, coming as it does from a Wikipedian. A fairly recent study pointing out that some of the most popular AO sex ed programs had scientific errors (a study which, I should add, includes extensive quotes and sources in its own right)... can't be cited in an article about AO sex ed? Look, I realize you're concerned about the article's level of balance and NPOV and whatnot - a valid concern on such a controversial topic - but you just made it sound, to me at least, like you think it's a good idea to remove accurate, sourced information from an encyclopedia article. NO. That is the last thing we should be doing. The first thing we should be doing, being, of course, finding sourceable quotes and whatnot on the "Arguments for" side and adding it in to make sure both sides of the controversy, as well as the execution of the programs, are as accurately represented as possible. Also, if any sourceable information on studies or policy changes or whatnot can be found for any year past 2004, that would be a fantastic addition. As for "only be cited... if there is going to be a much more in-depth history of the issue written", are you missing something or am I? This article appears to be not much more than a sub-article of Sex education; it was, I have to assume, thus originally intended to be an expanded overview and history of the type of program and its history that would hopefully be so extensive as to render it impossible to merge back into Sex education without losing considerable informative content. Thus, I have to assume there will, eventually, BE a more in-depth history of the issue. Just because it doesn't exist yet does not mean that we cannot cite studies, and actually, please do cite a WP policy or guideline that actually says what you stated, namely that "Studies should only be cited if..." that does not touch on merely the reliability and verifiability of the study. I am aware of no such policy or guideline, which is why I was a little alarmed to read that.
  • "Right now the criticisms outweigh the discussion of the actual programs." Both agree and disagree on this. There is not much discussion of how the programs are executed (which is very important), but there is certainly sourced information about the accuracy levels of the various text books they use, which actually is a "discussion of the actual programs", albeit not one that goes beyond the textbook and not entirely an optimistic one (though I'd like to note that while they were amongst the least-used as of 2004, two of the 13 programs' text books WERE found to not have any serious errors or misrepresentation of facts; this is noted accurately in the article, though there is no "reaction since the discovery of this" type information there and I did not have access to such information, otherwise I would have added it in myself). So, really, it's like we're only halfway there, discussing the books used by the programs, but not how they're used. I keep thinking that maybe the accuracy of the text books should be part of a seperate section of the article from the Criticism section (when I edited that section, the notes about the study and its findings were already there in some form or another); certainly if we can find evidence that anybody changed their program based on the 2004 findings, I would fully support such a change, as we could really balance the article out nicely if only we had that and some claims in support of the programs to counterbalance the Criticisms. Runa27 21:25, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Sexually transmitted infections

Government agencies have reclassified STDs (Sexually transmitted diseases) as STIs (Sexually transmitted infections). Reference to this can be found in this page [2]. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Damienhunter (talk • contribs) 12:01, 29 April 2007 (UTC).

[edit] WP:UNDUE and lead

I'm worried that the lead commits an "equal validity" fallacy. As far as I can tell, there are no mainstream medical or public health organizations that advocate abstinence-only sex education. The official positions of the American Psychological Association [3], American Medical Association [4], National Association of School Psychologists [5], Society for Adolescent Medicine and American College Health Association [6] , the American Academy of Pediatrics [7], the American Public Health Association [8] are that comprehensive sex education, not abstinence-only sex education, should be implemented. I'm unable to find any mainstream medical or scientific organization that takes an opposing view. This consensus should be clearly stated in the lead -- and per WP:UNDUE, barring similar citations, there is no need to present opposing views in the same manner. Now, of course there's room to say that religious groups think the focus should be on marriage, not STDs or pregnancy rates -- but as to the question of effectiveness at preventing STDs and pregnancy, WP:UNDUE requires a clear statement of the consensus view as the consensus view. Fireplace (talk) 00:22, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

The official positions of the organizations you list should be added as a section to the article, with citations. Once that's done, it would be appropriate to summarize that consensus in the lead. Given that the article is about one approach to sex education, I do think it's appropriate in the lead to say who supports that approach and why, and who disagrees and why. So long as the additions you make retain that logic, I would have no argument. --Sfmammamia (talk) 00:34, 7 December 2007 (UTC)
I found a place to add the professional associations and cites; will work on the lead as I have time unless another editor gets to it first!--Sfmammamia (talk) 01:45, 7 December 2007 (UTC)
Great, thanks. I will probably take a crack at expanding the addition you made, as the official positions are are very detailed and explanatory... but it'll be a big project to do well, and I might not get to it immediately. Fireplace (talk) 03:39, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Ethical Consideration

Finally, promotion of abstinence as a sole option for adolescents and young adults raises serious human rights concerns, because it involves withholding health- and life-saving information from teenagers. Access to complete and accurate HIV/AIDS and sexual health information is recognized as a basic human right by many international agreements [4,17]. Governments have an obligation to ensure complete and accurate information in publicly supported programs, and adolescents have a right to expect health education provided in public schools to be scientifically accurate and complete. A quote from Do Abstinence-Plus Interventions Reduce Sexual Risk Behavior among Youth? Shari L. Dworkin, John Santelli

A don't forget the question of whether or not abstinence is a religious position and how that effects separation of church and state

[edit] Recent addition to lead section

I moved a recent addition to the lead section out of the lead and into the criticism section. Per WP:LEAD, the lead should be kept brief and contain highlights of the article. I saw the addition as too detailed and making a long lead even longer, I also know that maintaining balance in this article's lead has been subject to debate in the past. The editor who made the addition, Dorftrottel, misintrepreted my change as POV-based; I'm actually trying to maintain NPOV. Other thoughts? --Sfmammamia (talk) 20:16, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

Sorry for that, I jumped to stupid conclusions. But let's revise the lead together, as it's clearly too long. User:Dorftrottel 21:33, January 24, 2008

[edit] Globalization tag

I have removed the generic globalization tag from this article. If you think the tag is deserved, please feel free to restore it -- but please also add a clear explanation right here on this talk page. Your actual concerns are much more likely to be adequately addressed if you identify them. WhatamIdoing (talk) 19:54, 4 March 2008 (UTC)