Talk:Absinthe/Archive 3

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This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.

Archived for Absinthe talk page from September to February 2008.

Contents 1 "Typically green" 2 Recent changes 3 Styles Vs Region 4 Contradiction 5 Thujone.info 6 TTB References 7 consumption figures 8 "Absinthetinence" 9 Page is controlled by a minority 10 Bohemian style, What's in a name 11 Dittany 12 [source needed. It was on the History Channel]. 13 My edits 14 Modern Use 15 Sweet, Bitter, or Sour? 16 Daily Science Article 17 "Banned in Australia?" 18 Recent effects additions 19 recent changes

"Typically green"

Apart from the double use of "typically" in the first few lines, I am not sure that it is right to define absinthe today as "typically green." Looking at absintheonline, c. 40% of the absinthes they carry are clear (plus one red); at eAbsinthe the number is nearer 30%. Would it more correct to say:-

"Absinthe is normally either green (naturally or with added color), or clear. When absinthe popularity was at its height, it was usually green and was often referred to as la Fée Verte ('The Green Fairy')." Any comments? Alanmoss 08:51, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

it's counting both pre and post ban as well as how it was often represented. I would say that today absinthe is typically green as well, although that's counting artificially colored products. -- Ari 15:59, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

The article states "Absinthe IS typically green." Pre-ban is by definition not produced and sold today in great quantities and is a very small percentage of total absinthe consumption in 2007. 50 - 100 bottles (?) out of a worldwide market of more than one million. How it "was often represented" does not equate with "IS," either. I quoted eAbsinthe in order to bring in many more artificially coloured products; hence the different % there. Alanmoss 17:03, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

I agree with Ari. "Absinthe is typically green (either naturally or with added color)" expresses it well and I don't think it needs changing. Alanmoss, there is a reason why they once called it the Green Fairy. Felicia11 12:54, 14 July 2007 (UTC)

Just because a few companies are trying to take advantage of the lack of legal definitions by marketing rainbow colored alcohol as absinthe does not change the generally accepted definition of the product. nightcafe1 —Preceding unsigned comment added by Nightcafe1 (talk • contribs) 19:57, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

I would like to add that, as said in my recent edit, dishonest producers would add poisons to absinthe to get a vivid green. This shows that absinthe is, at least traditionally, green. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.69.118.1 (talk) 01:16, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

Recent changes

I like some of the new recent changes, I adjusted some information and formating to more accurately flow and thought I would list it here.

• Absenta, is a regional variation but not something along the lines of of verte or blanche and those that use wormwood are still absinthe unlike the "bohemian style". Product variations are a bit beyond this article (partly to keep readability). It could be listed under the history section though. While I took it out of the section, it is noted here for editors, to keep what was written intact,
• While it was tried once and failed, the growth of this page suggests the Bohemian-style absinth section should probably have it's own page. perhaps, Bohemian style absinth
• I liked the idea of moving preparation up and I think the etymology section could be moved down into the history area but I'm unsure where the best spot would be.
• The idea of flow got me thinking, the HG section is more about history while the kits section is about production, so they are now in different areas.
• Removed some NPOV wording.
• Both artificial and natural coloring are traditional and so are oil-mixes (the ordinare grade often being an oil-mix).
• While some sites separate products based on Distilled/oil-mix the descriptions listed aren't always valid and debatable how accurate it really is. New products (of both high and low quality) blur this line. -- Ari 22:36, 26 August 2007 (UTC)

• I have removed the red absinthe section (see below). After posting for citations to verify these statements and no evidence being presented I decided to investigate myself. After doing extensive research I have concluded that no evidence exists of traditional red absinthe. Nightcafe1

In rare cases it can be naturally colored red, called a rouge or rose, by using hibiscus or other red flower/herb. ^{[citation needed]} Since the color is achieved by steeping herbs, it is theoretically possible to create a 'naturally colored' absinthe of any color by using the correct plant material, although verte and rouge are the only traditional ones discovered thus far. ^{[citation needed]}

• Swiss La Blue is a regional variant. If it gets special attention then Absenta deserves it as well. nightcafe1 —Preceding unsigned comment added by Nightcafe1 (talk • contribs) 19:53, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

Ari, If you have evidence of the existence of a traditional red absinthe please present it. The post for a citation has been on the site for months. If you want to send me a link I will do it. Otherwise it think it is misleading since I have not been able to find any evidence myself. (talk

Styles Vs Region

Unfortunately I don't have a lot of time (or constant internet access) but I thought I would attempt to start a conversation to fix a minor problem. While many regions are known for a certain style not every company produces that style. I think those commenting about the Bohemian section (in the past) were right that we shouldn't broad brush stroke a country. So while 'Swiss-style' is known for being a mainly anise and fennel tasting blanche, some of the best vertes come from Switzerland. The Czech-republic is known for anise-free drinks but some anise-heavy products come from there. France is known for anise-heavy and sweet but some bitter and/or wormwood heavy products are made in France. Spain is known for their anise heavy, often oil mixed absenta yet not all absinthe (or absenta) coming from spain is like this.

Which leads to the question, how can these 'styles' be added to the article without broad-brush-stroking a country and giving people a false idea of the total product coming out of that country? -- Ari 02:56, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

I think we have a precedent for this problem with wine. Just because you grow a concord grape in Bordeaux does not make it bordeaux wine. However you do not leave out the definition of Bordeaux wine from the encyclopedia simply because some one grew a concord grape in Bordeaux. Perhaps we should write a caveat at the beginning of the styles entry. Also I am rewriting the Absenta section with several references. It is not simply a linguistic issue, Absenta does have a unique flavor and there for deserves recognition as a style. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Nightcafe1 (talk • contribs) 13:44, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

There is no such thing as Bohemian absinth; it is not a recognised category. The term is just confusing, as it suggests both the geography and the idea of a bohemian life. This may be intentional, but I know that the only company that use this term are based in Moravia and NOT Bohemia. Moravia is a totally different region. It is a total nonsense.RedSalmon 18:17, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

Nightcafe,

• Rosinette A rouge absinthe poster.
• Swiss la blueu gets a note because of it's history as a bootleg product after the ban. Absenta could be added in (as already stated) as history but currently neither should be included as a "style"
• "Absenta does have a unique flavor and there for deserves recognition as a style." And yet again we run into the same problem as "absinth" while many products labeled absinth/absenta taste one way, not all products do. Unless you can show all absenta tastes in said style then the entry would be inaccurate. -- Ari 00:49, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

RedSalmon,

• what would you propose to call it?
• That line needs a bit of correction. It is/was claimed that 'bohemian-style' has been produced in the Czech republic since 1920. There is evidence that suggests absinthe was produced and probably sold there before the ban (in other countries). (One of the flaws of trying to find accurate things to call these two different products, (as well as the multiple 'styles')
• What you see as link spam is not. It they are pages used to backup the statements made after the wiki-law people requested things be supported. If you can find links that support what is there but aren't stores that would be appreciated. -- Ari 00:49, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

Hello Ari, I have removed the absenta section because to may of the products seem to deviate to far from the regional style. Until Spain gets its act together I will agree with you here. Also the rough poster is interesting and I think the section on it needs a bit of revision since it looks like the article should read as a caveat and not a traditional type. I will work on this today. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.44.253.88 (talk) 11:04, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

Contradiction

Which of these is correct please? This whole article is a total mess, the article is full of suspect links, opinions presented as fact, and irrelevant remarks aimed at one company or another.

"Contemporary Czech producers claim absinth has been produced in the Czech Republic since the 1920s[14], but there is no independent evidence to support these claims.[11]"

"There is evidence that at least one local liquor distillery, in Bohemia, was purporting to make absinthe at the turn of the 19th to 20th century.[27"

The first point is irrelevant and the second looks like one of the many pieces of link spam that have infected this page. It looks like a playground for absinthe sellers.RedSalmon 19:00, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

The image of "modern absinthe" now needs to be replaced since it has been revised and corrected. Studiofox 23:07, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

Thujone.info

Why is this page included in the links section? It might belong on a thujone page for Wiki, but why here? I also see that this domain serves adverts for absinthe, absinthe spoons and posters at the header and foot of the page. RedSalmon 18:14, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

I see no reason why this link should not be included. It was helpful IMO. Also, I dont understand why you would object to a link that refers to Thojune? Thujone is found is Absinthe; there is conjecture over Thujones psychological effects; this article is about Absinthe, hence the link in reference to Thujone. In regards to the advertising, if we were to remove every link that contained adverts we would not be left with many links in the end. PyrE 11:44, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

Website has just copied many papers and then planted banner adverts for their products. This page is full of links to eshop and commercial sites. There is a link spammer operating here Toga2 09:36, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

TTB References

I've updated the article with references to the TTB's new testing method and to their use of 10ppm as the margin of error for an absinthe to be "thujone-free." If I've done it wrong please correct. Peridotmetal 15:16, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

Should we rewrite the entire USA section now that the US has legalized Absinthe? E racer1999 (talk) 23:21, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

The USA has not legalized Absinthe. Lucid is being sold, which is a faux Absinthe without Thujone or Tannic (or Lesser Wormwood for that matter). REAL Absinthe is still illegal for sale in the US. 24.161.69.195 (talk) 18:16, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

Sorry but incorrect. Real absinthe is being sold in the US, Lucid is just one of a few that meet the TTB and FDA's regulations of under 10 mg/L thujone. Thujone is not a requirement for something be be absinthe. -- Ari (talk) 07:28, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

Wait a minute. Has there been some sort of guidelines set up that DO list the requirements for something to be absinthe? If so, shouldn't this be in the article (maybe it is there and I am missing it)?24.17.253.57 (talk) 06:40, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

I added a conversion from PPM to mg/kg in the US reference of TTB so it is consistent with the rest of the article. On first read it seems as if acceptable TTB levels in the US are much lower than the rest of the world, but it's the same for most other countries. Byerss (talk) 08:55, 24 December 2007 (UTC)

The US acceptable level of thujone is 10 parts per million, which is equivalent to the EU standard of 10 mg/L. Of course the standard for bitters (35 mg/L) is not legal in the US. It should also be noted in this discussion (it already is in the article) that Kubler and a company in California are selling legitimate absinthe in the US. E racer1999 (talk) 18:17, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

consumption figures

The introduction says, At the peak of its popularity, over 2 million litres of absinthe were consumed annually in France alone, cited to a website that in turn cites a 2002 journal article. The history section, meanwhile, says, by 1910 the French were consuming 36 million litres of absinthe per year, without citation. That's a pretty big difference in estimates! Since the 2 million one appears in a journal article and the 36 million is uncited, I'd be inclined to remove the latter. (The website citation should also be converted to cite the journal directly.) --Delirium 06:41, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

"Absinthetinence"

Not sure whether it's notable or not or if this the article on absinthe is the appropriate place, but perhaps we should include some sort of reference to Stephen Colbert's "word" about "absinthetinence". Apple1976 04:54, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

I don't have an opinion on whether that's notable or not, but (if it is) the spot would be the absinthe in popular culture article. Kafziel ^Talk 08:39, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

Page is controlled by a minority

Many multiple links from this Wikipedia page go to a small handful of absinthe retailers:

1. Liquers de France

2. FeeVerte

3. Thujone.info (same as 2.)

They sell La Clandestine and Jade brands. The sales manager of La Clandestine has also quietly planted a link in the text to his own blog which heavily promotes his brand.

What is the relevance of the words "quietly" and "planted" apart from to bring an emotional undertone to this? I know of no way to make links "noisily!" That aside, the link is to a unique page listing over 100 absinthe cocktails, and I have been told that this is very useful. Alanmoss (talk) 16:05, 18 November 2007 (UTC)

4. The Wormwood Society - of which the main writer of this page is a senior member - also strongly recommends La Clandestine and Jade, and the owner writes highly biased articles without regard for fairness or balance. "What's Wrong with Czech Absinth" etc The Wormwood Society has also created categories which have no legal basis called "Faux Absinthe and Novelties". The same thinking has now been extended to the Wikipedia (see below) using the bogus designation of "Bohemian Absinth". This is a total nonsense, as the only manufacturer that uses this description, is based in Moravia and not Bohemia. There is no such thing as Bohemian absinth - it is an invented category to undermine the Czech producers who have a huge market share of the absinthe market.

Two well-known absinth brands use the term "Bohemian" - both Hill's and La Fée on their brand websites. Alanmoss (talk) 16:05, 18 November 2007 (UTC)

Under the heading "buy absinthe" The Wormwood Society advertises:

DrinkupNY (selling Lucid - the thujone free absinthe from the makers of Jade)

Liquers de France (Jade)

'Note: LdF sells traditional French and Swiss absinthes from 9 different distilleries, not just Jade. Shabba53 (talk) 22:08, 19 November 2007 (UTC)'

La Clandestine

Absinthe.de (which sells both Jade and La Clandestine and another made by the owner of www.wormwoodsociety.org called Marteau Verte)

'Note: Absinthe.de sells 75 different types of absinthe from 7 different countries.Shabba53 (talk) 22:08, 19 November 2007 (UTC)'

5. Absinthe.se is a biased review site and the owner also is the reviewer of 2. His webite is also full of opinions about Czech manufacturers and he is firmly part of a small and highly organised group.

The whole absinthe page on wikipedia is littered with links and opinions intended to promote the interests of a small tightly knit group. It is grossly unfair and wrong. There are also many "mistakes" in the definition section as well. To start with absinthe is not only "a distilled" beverage and this was the case during the Belle Epoque era as well. This is simply part of the media message of a new era of absinthe elitists connected with the brands that I mentioned above.

As I mentioned a false category has been created called Bohemian Absinth on Wikipedia. Which is full of bias, hatred, and inneundo. It was re- written, following complaints. It is now highly provacative, designed to damage legal competitors, and is born of animosity. It's intention is to provoke and cause damage.

"Contemporary Czech producers claim absinth has been produced in the Czech Republic since the 1920s,[14] but there is no independent evidence to support these claims" (i)

"it is best described as a wormwood bitters and is produced mainly in the Czech Republic" (ii)

"producers have taken advantage" (iii)

"exploiting the many myths and half truths" (iv)

"Amongst many of the more traditional absinthe enthusiasts, this preparation method is scorned" (v)

(i) There is even evidence on the Wikipedia page that contradicts this, and I pointed that out before.

(ii) It is legally sold as absinth, and this description is only an opinion, based upon a non legal definition, taken from one manual.

(iii) An unproven and provocative allegation of wrongdoing

(iv) as per (ii)

(v) Scorned! What relevance does this have? This comes from forums which also publish hateful personal attacks on Czech producers (see vi below)

What role do words like "exploiting" and "taken advantage" play, apart from to cause a response and suggest wrongdoing? It is clear that people are playing games on this page.

Another outrageous example follows:

Somone has also recently uploaded a misleading picture of a bottle of Czech absinth which, according to one writer, has been filled with urine. It should be electric green and yet is strangely yellow. The manufacturer has confirmed in writing that there is no possibility of this colouration, even after exposure to extreme sunlight. This is the most obvious example of puerile and self serving provocation I have seen.

"The players have taken it upon themselves go so far as to control wikipedia's definitions of absinthe under tight control (how many times the site has been debated/under legal action, I can only speculate). One example being the deliberate falsification and persistence of a photo displaying Czech Absinth as urine" (http://www.absinthedrinkers.org/?q=node/72)

The lengths to which this campaign against the Czech national absinth, on the forums that wikipedia promotes, is truly disgusting. This is probably the very worst example, but there are many, many more.

(vi) "Papa survived the ensuing blaze, but the burns on his face left him permanently disfigured and a ruined man. Sinking into an anti-social depression, he rapidly fell out of favor with the Party. He’d lost both his looks and his friendly demeanor. He cursed the absinthe that had destroyed his life, and this bitterness rubbed off on his young son.

Determined to discredit absinthe forever, while still paying homage to his now-deceased Papa, NAME DELETED stewed for decades. Finally in the 1990s, he had a brilliant idea! Why not create a horrible-tasting drink, promote it as “real absinthe” (using the Czech spelling, “absinth”), and encourage people to light it afire?

The more he thought about it, the more he liked it. After all, people would associate “absinthe” with his horrid concoction. Eventually, someone would light himself or a friend, or maybe even a bar, on fire. Absinthe would be known once again as the vile and hazardous creation that had destroyed his once-proud Papa"

Conclusion

The abuse against Czechs is widespead in these communities and it has now created a place here.

This is a shameful and disgraceful corner of Wikipedia, a black spot on an otherwise excellent resource. My repeated requests for an outside review have been ignored, and attempts by Czech manufacturers to contribute to the page are always deleted within minutes by the zealous guardians of this commercially important message.

Thanks to Wikipedia this page is also being quoted in a full scale media campaign now. The abuse of Wikipedia as an "authority" is now in full swing in selling absinthe in the USA. It will come as no surprise to learn that the product in question is another from the stable of one of the brands I mentioned above.

I call, for the very last time, for the removal of this misleading section, the end of attacks on the Czechs, and the immediate deletion of that highly provactive photograph. I also demand that those with a knowledge of Czech absinth are allowed (without hinderance) to contribute to this article to remove the provocative and self serving bias that it now suffers.

The commercial links should also be removed.

RedSalmon (talk) 11:56, 18 November 2007 (UTC)

• "Page is controlled by a minority"

Page is also looked over by other wikipedians who have little interest in absinthe or in the online community.

• "Many multiple links from this Wikipedia page go to a small handful of absinthe retailers:"

Page links to a single PDF file on Liquers de France, not the shop. Fee verte and thujone.info are information sites. They are owned by people who also own retail sites but they are not stores and provide a significant amount of information. The page does however go to a number of shops, such as Zele absinth, La Fee, absint, etc. These are to be removed when better sources for the same information is found. If you are truly for a "fair and balanced" page, I'm sure you would be willing to find new sources, correct?

• "There are also many "mistakes" in the definition section as well. To start with absinthe is not only "a distilled" beverage and this was the case during the Belle Epoque era as well. This is simply part of the media message of a new era of absinthe elitists connected with the brands that I mentioned above."

Source?

• "It is now highly provacative, designed to damage legal competitors, and is born of animosity. It's intention is to provoke and cause damage."

Source? Every quote you provided is accurate and supported.

• "It is legally sold as absinth, and this description is only an opinion, based upon a non legal definition, taken from one manual."

Wikipedia is not a legal encyclopedia. The definition of absinthe on this page is taken from a widely respected pre-ban manual.

• "Somone has also recently uploaded a misleading picture of a bottle of Czech absinth which, according to one writer, has been filled with urine."

That is the writers opinion and not based on fact. The picture is from a trusted source and the bottle is how it was sold to him.

• "The lengths to which this campaign against the Czech national absinth, on the forums that wikipedia promotes, is truly disgusting. This is probably the very worst example, but there are many, many more."

Quote has no baring on this article.

• "and attempts by Czech manufacturers to contribute to the page are always deleted within minutes by the zealous guardians of this commercially important message."

I am intrigued. Can you show us these edits, perhaps if I know what you are talking about I can better explain why they were deleted or restore them if it was done so unfairly.

• "the end of attacks on the Czechs,"

I and others have taken meausres to make sure that czech companies are not treated unfairly and have made changes to the article to note that "bohemian absinth" is not the only product labeled "absinthe" coming from the Czech Republic and that other countries also produce bohemian absinth. Not to mention there is nothing here that attacks the Czechs as a people.

If you would provide sources and support for your arguments, I think we could help you out. However currently many of your complaints seem to be more personal and unrelated to the actual wikipedia page. -- Ari (talk) 17:09, 18 November 2007 (UTC)

"The picture is from a trusted source and the bottle is how it was sold to him"

I have told you that the manufacturer has stated that the yellow colouration is impossible. Who is this trusted source? The Review Editor of the Wormwood Society, isn't it? The same website that publishes "What's Wrong with Czech Absinth"? This is really a matter for the manufacturer now.

'Red, you can see the full story in a thread at the Wormwood Society. The person who brought forth the accusation has since appologized once he heard the full story. I have personally contacted Stromu, asking about the colorfastness of their coloration process, and the potential for it to break down in a high heat, direct sun situation. They have not (or will not) respond. And to address your point that I am the review editor for the Wormwood Society, I was selected only because of my experience in tasting absinthes, both traditional and non-traditional. No previous relationship existed between myself and any of the Wormwood Society administration. Shabba53 (talk) 22:02, 19 November 2007 (UTC)'

As you are the author of Wikipedia's perjoratively worded and bogus classification of Czech products I don't see any point in engaging with you any further.

This was a last ditch attempt at resolution and it has been met with the usual response. You are clearly in charge of this page and delight in provoking and denigrating Czech manufacturers. Your writings on the subject contradict other parts of the page, and seem to exist solely to degrade and provoke through carefully worded innuendo. There is also suggestion of wrongdoing and duplicity in your writing.

I have fulfilled my duty in posting the concerns here regarding this matter. I further do not understand the dispute resolution mechanism. It shall stand as it is, for the time being, and will no doubt continue to inflict economic damage on those engaged in the legal production of absinth. How one accounts for this damage is difficult to assess, but the page must be read by many thousands of visitors every day. They will no doubt have been persuaded that Czech absinth exists as some kind of inferior sub-category. This is a great pity as many people enjoy Czech absinth and, what is more, many distillers and their employees rely on sales for their livelihood. It seems to be fine with Wikipedia Foundation that a small group of Americans can openly attack a legal Czech industry within the European Union, and further suggest wrongdoing on the part of Czech nationals with impunity.

Your writing:

"it is best described as a wormwood bitters and is produced mainly in the Czech Republic"

"producers have taken advantage"

"exploiting the many myths and half truths"

Indicates quite clearly your own mindset. The issue of the photograph is a highly inflamatory development. You have been repeatedly asked to remove it. You have been asked to do this by people in the Czech Republic and others in your own country. Why have you not done so?

As for the remarks placed on my comments by Alan Moss of La Clandestine. We are all aware of his own much publicised attacks on the Czech industry (see below from a forum he runs) The fact that Hill's and La Fee market their products using the term "Bohemian", does not mean that such a category exists. You have created this bogus category and strangely placed it third, when if one used a fair alphabetical order it would be second.

In the 1990's, Czech products called absinth, but with very little similarity, first appeared. Most play on the fact that it should be flamed and burnt, showing how little respect the Czech distillers have for their own creations, and building a negative image for the whole category.

http://groups.myspace.com/realabsinthe

I don't see any point in continuing this discussion. I know what you are doing (you know what you are doing) and it seems that Wikipedia Foundation servers are open house for anyone that cares to take advantage. Those that are damaged in the process can apparently go to hell, after all they come from a little country in Europe where English is not the first language or widely used.

RedSalmon (talk) 20:08, 18 November 2007 (UTC)

• I have responded to the email complaint from the above user. As Avi notes, the complaints are insufficiently specific to permit of any proper action. If RedSalmon would like to be more specific and less accusing perhaps some progress could be made. Guy (Help!) 20:45, 18 November 2007 (UTC)

I have placed back the removed links for now. Please search through the archives, they have been discussed before and have been kept. If specific complaints can be made, I would be happy to fix the issue (as I did with previous issues, or maybe someone can help... hint hint). Unfortunately he seems to be more interested in the personal aspects. -- Ari (talk) 21:03, 18 November 2007 (UTC)

 :: I'll rewrite the section and rename it, if you agree. The use of this term "Bohemian" and it's association with both a geographical region and a lifestyle is very confusing. I imagine it was first used solely as marketing by one company in the UK and seems to have somehow creeped (since a May 2007 blog article) into wikiepdia. There are more of these style of anise free absinthes made in Spain than in the Czech Republic, and to call it Czech style, or to claim the designation comes from that region is false. The Spanish have long been making these "other absinthes" and the association with the Czech Republic is an error.

Absinth is the German word for absinthe by the way and has absolutley nothing to do with a style of absinthe. There are Swiss absinthes from German speaking cantons that are called absinth. Czechs call absinthe "absint" although absinth is also known because of the billingual nature of the Hapsburg Empire. That picture must go (please take it down as soon as possible - like now) Do I have to spell out why? Please heed this advice.

I agree with the user that removed those two raucous online forums from the external links section today. I fail to see why they are there. What is the purpose? RedSalmon (talk) 16:32, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

I am curious what name do you think fits best, what do you plan on trying to call it (exactly what to call it has been an issue for awhile, as you mentioned it can't be called czech-absinth or absinth. Bohemian ended up being the least confusing of the bunch. If you have an even less confusing name that denotes a different product but doesn't cause confusion I would like to know it. (A good alternative is to call it what it is, Wormwood bitters, but some seem to complain about that name).

I would also like to see a source for the spanish bohemian style claim. The vast majority of spanish absinthe I have seen are heavy on the anise end. "Bohemian style" seems to have started with Hills, a czech product, and appears to come mainly from the czech republic and germany.

I have told you before, you could talk with the person who took the picture and get him to reshoot it, but I see no reason it needs to be removed anymore than an actual picture of a big mac should be removed because mcdonalds doesn't like the look over their advertising. Would you rather we go back to earlier lower quality and no bohemian style picture that was there before?

The links have been debated before. Both sites of some of the largest for absinthe information on the internet. -- Ari (talk) 16:55, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

I do think some of the article links can go. Some are informative and note worthy 'milestone' articles, but others aren't as important. -- Ari (talk) 21:31, 18 November 2007 (UTC)

Red Salmon states: "The use of this term "Bohemian" and it's association with both a geographical region and a lifestyle is very confusing. I imagine it was first used solely as marketing by one company in the UK." Since we are trying to have a factual debate here, I would like to point out that Hill's have been referring to the Bohemian way of serving since 2001 (see http://web.archive.org/web/20011220041024/www.hillsabsinth.com/history.html ). This does not seem to be anything to do with a UK company. Since it was a famous Czech company that first used the term and since they still do so (their current home page calls it the "Original Bohemian Spirit"), that seeems to me to be a quite good authority for the term, pre-dating Wikipedia's use of this term by several years. Alanmoss (talk) 17:14, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

Bohemia Beer House (now Green Bohemia/ La Fee) imported Hill's to the UK several years before 2001. The term was used only in UK advertising - at the time absinthe was legal in the Czech Republic and in the UK, and not in many other European countries. This is the origin of the term and La Fee and Hill's are the only one's that use it (that I know of) Hill's are based in Moravia and not Bohemia anyway. The term is a perfectly legitimate marketing name only - it is not a category and never has been. It does not (and never has) described anise free absinth(e). The idea of the Bohemian Absinth as a category was first raised in May 2007 by the owner of the commercial feeverte.net network of websites.RedSalmon (talk) 18:29, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

The designation has been around longer than that, the wikipedia article has tentatively labeled it as "bohemian absinth" since at least December 2006 (and probably earlier). The section used to be the clunky "Czech, or Bohemian, absinth" section but was renamed in part to note that not all absinthe coming from the Czech Republic is "Bohemian absinth." Again, if you have a better term that is accurate and more effective I would love to hear it. The naming of that section has been trouble for awhile now. -- Ari (talk) 18:37, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

RS's comment is interesting. Yes, I am aware that BBH started importing Hill's in 1998. These pages - http://www.firmy.cz/detail/683489-hill-s-liquere-jindrichuv-hradec-iii.html and http://web.archive.org/web/20000919062024/eabsinthe.com/hills/oldhill.htm - both suggest that Hill's is based in Jindřichův Hradec which seems to be in Southern Bohemia. Another Czech absinth refers to Bohemian absinth: the Oliva site states "Bohemian Absinth has gotten a bad reputation, and rightly so. Almost every absinthe buyer's guide recommends avoiding all absinthe that is spelled without the "e" (absinth) to buy absinth. It seems like the Green Fairy left Bohemia generations ago. In fact, she was only hiding!" And at least one of the main vendors of Czech absinth refers to it as Bohemian: see http://www.originalabsinthe.com/absinthe-verdoyante-p-65.html Alanmoss (talk) 18:41, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

That's an interesting quote that you managed to dig up, self serving too. You are of course the founder of a website called "absinthesuckers" and several others whose primary aim seems to be to insult Czech products and stir up trouble on myspace /facebook etc. I'll withdraw my offer to revise the page and stand by my original title. I'll not waste my time here any longer whilst this minority are the only ones active here. This Wikipedia page has been turned craftily into a "absinthe buyer's guide" and is written in the narrow commercial interests of that minority, complete with warnings and other triva. RedSalmon (talk) 20:23, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

• This is conspiracy theory and ad hominem. Please try to make specific positive suggestions for changes to the article, citing reliable sources. I'm afraid we can't act on vague assertions and accusations of "this article is biased", we need to know what specifically you want changed and what specific sources support those changes. Guy (Help!) 22:25, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

• Take a look at the word count of the blanche, verte vs the bogus "Bohemian" catgeory. You can easily see that it was written to deliver a message. It is aimed at creating a bad image for Czech producers.

"Often called Bohemian-style, Czech-style, anise-free absinthe or just absinth (without the 'e'), it is best described as a wormwood bitters and is produced mainly in the Czech Republic where it gets its Bohemian and Czech designations"

Wrong. What is the source of these allegations? Anise-free absinth is not called Bohemian Absinth or Czech-style and it is not produced mainly in the Czech Republic. This style existed in Spain long before the Czech revival and is also produced in many different countries including France!!

"and is often more bitter from chemicals such as absinthine"

Source?

"Contemporary Czech producers claim absinth has been produced in the Czech Republic since the 1920s,[13] but there is no independent evidence to support these claims.[11]"

Absinth is the German word for absinthe and there is evidence it was produced before 1920 anyway, the Wikipedia article even says so. I suggest that you also check the link.

Contemporary Czech producers claim absinth has been produced in the Czech Republic since the 1920s,[13] but there is no independent evidence to support these claims.[11] Since there are currently few legal definitions for absinthe, producers have taken advantage of its romantic 19th century associations and psychoactive reputation to market their products under a similar name. Many Bohemian-style producers heavily market thujone content,[14] exploiting the many myths and half truths that surround thujone even though none of these types of absinth appear to contain enough thujone to cause any noticeable effect.

Czech producers have done this? Where is the evidence for this suggestion? "taken advantage" and "exploiting" imply impropriety. An ad hominem attack on Czech producers as a whole. Note the following links all concern ONE company:

1. ^ Zele absinth A thujone content beyond EU regulations. Retrieved 20 May 2007.
2. ^ Zele absinth A thujone content beyond EU regulations. Retrieved 20 May 2007.
3. ^ L'or King of Spirits Gold A thujone content beyond EU regulations. Retrieved 20 May 2007.
4. ^ About L'Or absinth How L'or's bohemian style absinth is made Retrieved 20 May 2007

Alan Moss' opinions about the fire ritual are also quoted from a forum as if they have some validity:

1. ^ Origin of the fire ritual Alan Moss explains the origins of the Czech ritual at Feeverte.net Retrieved 11 May 2006

You need to ask your self why such a wordy and perjorative article was written in the first place. You can only answer this if you know the facts. They are not ad hominem attacks they are facts. Alan Moss is a drinks salesman and has written many anti Czech articles on his blog (which is also linked to from this Wiki page after he copied recipes from The Savoy Cocktail Book using web links) The Wikipedia article has further been used in an expensive media campaign to sell particular brands and denegrate Czech products. This is a fact. When will someone remove the anti Czech bias from this page? I suspect that it will never happen whilst this minority are in charge.RedSalmon (talk) 08:07, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

• "It is aimed at creating a bad image for Czech producers."

You left out "although not all absinthe from the Czech Republic is Bohemian style." Would you like the section to specify this even more? The first section is an attempt to harmonize the term with how it is seen elsewhere. Even czech sites like to call the product "czech absinth" if I recall correctly.

• "This style existed in Spain long before the Czech revival and is also produced in many different countries including France!!"

Again, source please. Would you like it to be noted more obviously that not all bohemian absinth comes from the czech republic. Perhaps a statement that says as much.

• "and is often more bitter from chemicals such as absinthine"

Bohemian style is a macerate only. Absinthine is left behind in a macerate. Unless the product contains only a small amount of wormwood you are going to get absinthine.

• "Absinth is the German word for absinthe and it there is evidence it was produced before 1920 anyway, the Wikipedia article even says so. I suggest that you also check the link."

In this case "absinth" refers to bohemian-style as noted in the section. Would you like it clarified? Please source the claims that bohemian-absinth (this includes it's claimed connection to absinthe) existed before 1990 let alone 1920. While wormwood bitters did exist long before remember we are in the absinthe section because these companies are claiming a connection between their specific products and the 19 century era, artist drinking, liquor called absinthe.

• "Czech producers have done this? Where is the evidence for this suggestion? "taken advantage" and "exploiting" imply impropriety. An ad hominem attack on Czech producers as a whole. Note the following links all concern ONE company:"

Yes you are right, it should say distributors as well. There is only one link because I was pressed for time when finding the links. I have asked others (like yourself) to help out yet little gets done.

• General note, an ad hominem can be both fact and ad hom. Please click wiki link. -- Ari (talk) 12:07, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

• My attempt to remove the biased, bogus and wordy "Bohemian Style" misinformation section and the photograph has been reversed by Eric. Where do you want to go from here? If this page is about scoring points over particular companies then it is now their business. That is certainly the case as regards the photograph RedSalmon (talk) 12:25, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

Red Salmon writes:- "Alan Moss' opinions about the fire ritual are also quoted from a forum as if they have some validity." Actually these are not my opinions but what I was told by George Rowley. However, I tend to agree with RS on this. What I was told and what I state on the forum are certainly NOT proof of the origins of the Czech ritual as suggested by the article, I never suggested that what I say is clear proof, and there should be a much better source somewhere. Perhaps Red Salmon can provide a better source, preferably in English? Alanmoss (talk) 15:19, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

1. (Reverted 2 edits by RedSalmon; An agenda is being promoted here, and there is no cponsensus on Talk and no decent sources. using TW) (undo)

What agenda? One of the edits was one that you made yourself and which Ari immediately reversed (see below) As for concensus both Ari and Alan Moss (the only two involved here) are well known for their mutual online activities. Why do you think there is no "concensus"? Perhaps you should examine their motives in writing / supporting this bogus section with all it's references to the Czech Republic. There is indeed an agenda going on here as I have pointed out - Wikipedia is just one part of an organised campaign. Attacking Czech manufacturers through uploading misleading photographs, implications of wrongdoing and so forth, is important to disrupt the legal activities of an important sector of the Czech economy. How dare you publish this? How dare you imply that Czechs are involved in inpropriety? "producers have taken advantage" "exploiting the many myths and half truths"'

1. (cur) (last) 20:59, 18 November 2007 Ari x (Talk | contribs) (56,416 bytes) (please do not remove links without discussing it first) (undo)
2. (cur) (last) 20:37, 18 November 2007 JzG (Talk | contribs) (55,115 bytes) (→External links - pruning some external links of questionable relevance) (undo)

How dare you also accuse me of having an agenda? I am seeking to remove the bias and provocative nature of Ari's writings which you have chosen to publish.

RedSalmon (talk) 15:36, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

RedSalmon says:- "Both Ari and Alan Moss (the only two involved here) ... Perhaps you should examine their motives in writing / supporting this bogus section." Actually I only got involved in this discussion because RedSalmon decided again to start his/her ad hominem attacks on me. Without the ad hominems which I felt obliged to rebut, I would probably just be a bystander in this. Indeed if one looks at the history of the Wikipedia absinthe article, one will see that I am a very minor contributor to the article. Of the last 500 edits, 5 are mine, and I think one would find none of these edits had anything to do with Czech products. And if one read what I wrote above about the origins of the burning ritual, one will see that I supported what Red Salmon said on this. Alanmoss (talk) 16:16, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

Wormwood Society of which both you and Ari are members and which heavily promotes your brand in their "buy absinthe" section. You are here to lend support to Ari's notion that there is such a category as Bohemian Absinth. You have even suggested that Czech absinth should have it's own page! You have written vitriolic pieces about Czech producers on your blog and on myspace where you sell alcohol. You used to sell Czech absinth for Hill's and if there is anyone that has a personal agenda it is you.

This photograph also comes from the Wormwood Society where all this originates. Please compare the colouration of the two bottles:

Description=A group of modern Absinthe. Left vertes, middle blanches, right bohemian-style and a prepared glass in front of each. |Source= Wormwood Society |Date= 2007-09-02 |Author= Brian Robinson |Permission= "I Brian Robinson am th

Published by Wikipedia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Modern-absinthe-bottles.jpg#filehistory

Manufacturer:

http://www.starorezna.cz/english/absinth.html

The section called "Bohemian Absinth" has no basis, except that two companies (which were once connected) use the term in marketing. This is an organised attempt to damage a legal industry in the Czech Republic by a very small number of people. Apparently I can do nothing about it within the constraints of this extraordinary publishing system which is run as a web hosting concern.RedSalmon (talk) 16:52, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

• "What agenda? One of the edits was one that you made yourself and which Ari immediately reversed (see below)"

-Perhaps you should actually discuss links before removing them, as others have done in the past (those links have been kept after debate in the past).

• "Attacking Czech manufcaturers..."

-A single picture with no noticeable brand name, showing how a product was sold, accurate statements of advertising and a willingness to make sure people understand it's not just czech companies and it's not all czech companies is an "attack" against them?

• "Wormwood Society... which heavily promotes your [Alan's] brand in their "buy absinthe" section. "

-This has nothing to do with the article however I thought I would point out Alan has been helping on this page since he worked for La Fee, which produced products not recommended by the wormwood society. So his participation is hardly related to their acceptance of the company he works for.

• "The section called "Bohemian Absinth" has no basis, ... Apparently I can do nothing about it within the constraints of this extraordinary publishing system"

I have asked for your help in renaming it several times, so far you have been unwilling to even make an attempt to help. If you support your position and make reasonable arguments about changes in the article, you can do a lot. Attacking the people and blanking sections is not helpful.

• Alan, the page does state you are describing how the ritual entered marketing not how the ritual was created. Unless someone can provide evidence of marketing the fire ritual as "traditional" before Hills, I would say it is an accurate description. -- Ari (talk) 17:31, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

Ari, the footnote states: "Alan Moss explains the origins of the Czech ritual." Maybe it should state "Alan Moss gives an account of how the fire ritual was apparently first observed by an English company who subsequently introduced the ritual to the UK." The wording is more clumsy, but it is more correct than the current footnote. I would still prefer it if someone from the Czech Republic - RedSalmon maybe - could provide a better and earlier source in English. Alanmoss (talk) 18:46, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

I completely forgot about the footnote, yes it should be changed.. -- Ari (talk) 18:51, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

Red, since you seemingly didn't read my above post, here is my response to your accusations regarding the Stromu picture.

Red, you can see the full story in a thread at the Wormwood Society. The person who brought forth the accusation has since appologized once he heard the full story. I have personally contacted Stromu, asking about the colorfastness of their coloration process, and the potential for it to break down in a high heat, direct sun situation. They have not (or will not) respond. And to address your point that I am the review editor for the Wormwood Society, I was selected only because of my experience in tasting absinthes, both traditional and non-traditional. No previous relationship existed between myself and any of the Wormwood Society administration.

Also, regarding Czech brands and their misinformation: their marketing tactics of hyping thujone and it's 'hallucinogenic' properties are well documented. I have screenshots which show them. Along with that, one of your alter-egos has admitted to never having halucinated while drinking absinthe. Shabba53 (talk) 18:55, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

Ari

Often called Bohemian-style, Czech-style, anise-free absinthe or just absinth (without the 'e'), it is best described as a wormwood bitters and is produced mainly in the Czech Republic where it gets its Bohemian and Czech designations, although not all absinthe from the Czech Republic is Bohemian style. [11]

What is the actual source of your definition? or did you just make it up? The Prague Post? Who is the writer of this "feature" / opinion piece? May I ask if you know whether he is again a member of the Wormwood Society? I also see no mention of Bohemian style in the article. I think that you just made the category up in order to justify your lengthy diatribe against the marketing tactics of a handful of websites that you quote as sources.

There is not one single scholarly or real source:

1. ^ a b Worthy of their name The Prague post April 26, 2006 Retrieved 20 May 2007 (an opinion piece)

1. ^ About L'Or absinth How L'or's bohemian style absinth is made Retrieved 20 May 2007

1. ^ Hills absinth history History of Hills absinth. Retrieved 20 May 2007.

1. ^ Zele absinth A thujone content beyond EU regulations. Retrieved 20 May 2007.

1. ^ La Fee bohemian description Bohemian absinth doesn't louche (internet archive) Retrieved 31 August 2007.

1. ^ Fire ritual Demonstration of the fire ritual. Retrieved 20 May 2007.

1. ^ Origin of the fire ritual Alan Moss explains the origins of the Czech ritual at Feeverte.net Retrieved 11 May 2006

1. ^ Ex. The flaming scene in From hell

1. ^ Fee Verte FAQ 19. What about setting the sugar on fire?. Retrieved 20 May 2007.

1. ^ Zele absinth A thujone content beyond EU regulations. Retrieved 20 May 2007.

1. ^ L'or King of Spirits Gold A thujone content beyond EU regulations. Retrieved 20 May 2007.

1. ^ About L'Or absinth How L'or's bohemian style absinth is made Retrieved 20 May 2007

This page seems to be another arm of the Wormwood Society and it's well known "What's Wrong with Czech Absinth" campaign started by the owner who is a manufacturer of absinthe. If you have a problem with the marketing tactics of one company, which seems to be the case as 5 of the above "sources" are regarding just one manufacturer, is Wikipedia the place for this? It seems that you are abusing your host both by creating a fanciful category which has geographical connotations with the Czech lands, whilst in reality you seem to have issues connected with marketing. It begs the question why? RedSalmon (talk) 09:00, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

We seem to be going in circles. I have explained or answered each comment before. You also seem to be bringing in more anachronisms. So quickly, once more.

• The name was chosen because it is used by at least a few companies, as demonstrated here, but mainly because it was one of the more neutral and error free terms (the conspiracy you seem to favor went out of it's way to try and unlink the product from all czech producers). (no I have no clue who wrote the Prague post piece). If you have a better idea, please give it and support your reasons.
• I can add scholarly sources if you wish.
• Only one company is sourced due to lack of time.
• The owner of the wormwood society does not manufacturer any absinthe on the market. He did help create a new product, one that post-dates the disputed section by a matter of years. -- Ari (talk) 12:35, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

Chosen? Chosen by whom? The same people that uploaded that photograph I think? So you guys choose what things are called, right? You sit in America and decide that? What qualifications do you have for this important role in creating categories on Wikipedia that are read by thousands of people every day?

The name given on the Prague Post article is Tim Rogers. I don't know if he is a member of Wormwood Society or not, but he uses the term "Czechsinth" which is a common term on that Wormwood Society forum that you all frequent.

Give a scholarly reference - and not one written by an absinthe entrepreneur, or in an advert - for this classification "Bohemian Absinth"

"Now others are trying to elbow their way into the market. Gwydion Stone, the pony-tailed founder of Seattle’s Wormwood Society, is hoping to release his Swiss-made absinthe, Marteau, in October"

http://www.zagat.com/buzz/Detail.aspx?SCID=36&BLGID=4473

RedSalmon (talk) 13:46, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

Red, as Ari states, Mr. Stone helped create a new absinthe, but it was well after the Wiki article was written. Even so, the Wormwood Society boasts quite a few well known distillers as part of its membership.

As for the name of Czech absinth, Ari has repeatedly asked you to give a better name. One that would make you happy. You have, up to this point, not done so. Personally, I see no issue with calling it Bohemian style absinth. It denotes a different product, which no one can deny the fact that it is. Quality aside, the taste of the product has a completely different profile than that of Swiss or French style absinthe. Wouldn't producers want their product to be known for its own unique attributes as opposed to being lumped in with another product that is dissimilar?

Why do YOU want it to be lumped in together? I'm sure you can agree that it truly is a different type of product in flavor, coloration, and even production. Most ads for Bohemian style absinths brag about their bitterness, their level of thujone, and their lack of 'licorice' taste. They seem to want to separate themselves out by applauding things that French and Swiss absinthes don't tend to address at all. I don't understand why you would then argue for them to be categorized as the same product.Shabba53 (talk) 15:06, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

Shabba53

Are anise free / anise light wormwood rich absinthes made in : Spain, Portugal, France, Bulgaria, Denmark, Germany, Andorra, Italy, Slovenia, Austria, Poland, and lots of other countries? Answer: Yes. So why the constant geographical references to the Czech Republic? and in particular one manufacturer? The category is misleading and was "chosen" - as Ari put it - by the Wormwood Society. The same entity that uploaded that peculiar photograph at about the same time. The photograph is marked in the file "Wormwood Society"

"Often called Bohemian-style, Czech-style, anise-free absinthe or just absinth (without the 'e'), it is best described as a wormwood bitters and is produced mainly in the Czech Republic where it gets its Bohemian and Czech designations"

This is total rubbish and as Ari has already conceded the name was "chosen"

designation was created by a tiny group of individuals who operate under the banner of the grandly named Wormwood Society. Is the owner, or is he not, selling an absinthe called Marteau Verte? Is he the author of an article called "What's Wrong with Czech Absinth"? Perhaps you can see my point? What gives you the authority to create categories? Can you explain that for me?RedSalmon (talk) 15:39, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

And I listed reasons why the name was "chosen." The wormwood society did not write that section. The picture is only "from the wormwood society" because I asked there first. If no one had time to help the picture might have been labeled "from myspace group ____" as I was planning to ask there next. No the owner of the wormwood society does not manufacture or sell any absinthe (and why you thought to include that he has a pony tail, I have no clue). -- Ari (talk) 16:05, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

Because it's part of absintheur's - sorry, I mean RedSalmon's - normal modus operandi of ad hominems. Talking of absintheur, here's another Bohemian absinth from his own blog: http://czechabsinthe.wordpress.com/buy-absinthe/vision-absinth/ It seems that the designation is quite widely in use. Alanmoss (talk) 16:20, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

Ari,

(and why you thought to include that he has a pony tail, I have no clue)

It is part of a quote nothing more. It seems that you cannot provide any real basis for this category except that YOU chose it. You seem to be in control of this page. You cannot give me any reason why this term is being used on Wikipedia - give me a REAL source, Ari. What authority do you have to create such categories?

"Now others are trying to elbow their way into the market. Gwydion Stone, the pony-tailed founder of Seattle’s Wormwood Society, is hoping to release his Swiss-made absinthe, Marteau, in October"

http://www.zagat.com/buzz/Detail.aspx?SCID=36&BLGID=4473

Not my words. You are using the red herring approach. RedSalmon (talk) 17:25, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

It takes a RedSalmon to spot a red herring. Alanmoss (talk) 17:48, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

Smart jokes about herring and salmon may be "de rigeur" and "oh so funny" in the wine bars of London. What shall we say to the real people who are affected by the activities of the drinks salesmen on Wikipedia and their proxies? Screw them?

RedSalmon (talk) 20:57, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

I have removed a link made by RedSalmon which is in breach of the Wikipedia "No personal attacks policy." This states that "Attacking, harassing, or violating the privacy of any Wikipedian through the posting of external links is not permitted." Alanmoss (talk) 07:11, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

Re: edit to my comment by the above user:

The link that you deleted does not constitute a personal attack. It merely proves what you are - a self employed drinks salesman, currently selling absinthe from Switzerland. I presume that you put this CV solicitation on the internet, so how exactly does this link violate your privacy?

The fact is that you use wikipedia as part of your sales copy (and that is the important issue) and you include links to this page with particular reference to the Czech Republic.

Here is one example:

"And let's not forget Wikipedia: the main editors of the Wikipedia absinthe article have done a great job compiling an article that was Featured Article of the Day on June 20th 2006, and remains at the time of writing the only alcoholic beverage article so honoured. Some other resources are partly or largely gateways to vendors promoting Czech absinth. Buyer beware

Source your http://realabsinthe.blogspot.com/

This is from a header of a forum run by Clandestine Absinthe (you):

In the 1990's, Czech products called absinth, but with very little similarity, first appeared. Most play on the fact that it should be flamed and burnt, showing how little respect the Czech distillers have for their own creations, and building a negative image for the whole category.

Source your http://groups.myspace.com/realabsinthe

Also you have created a page as part of your "role" for your employer http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/La_Clandestine_Absinthe

La Clandestine Absinthe is a popular [1], prize-winning [2], La Bleue, or clear, Swiss absinthe brand produced by Artemisia-Bugnon distilleries.

What are the sources that you used for this sales copy?

1. ^ Wormwood Society list of preferred absinthes Absinthe Forum list with "community favorites listed nearer the top."

External links are

   * La Clandestine Absinthe - Brand website
   * Worwood Society vote - Absinthe Forum voting on preferred brands (at the time of voting there were an estimated 250 absinthes available).
   * Fée Verte Review - Independent website confirming that La Clandestine had been sold for "years" prior to its official launch.

Are not both FeeVerte and Wormwood Society also honoured with links from this page by what you describe as " the main editors of the Wikipedia absinthe article"? Perhaps fair minded people can see a pattern emerging and the real genus of this bogus category called Bohemian Absinth with it's anti Czech bias.

RedSalmon (talk) 09:10, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

Please see the Wikipedia: No personal attacks page. It states: "There is no bright-line rule about what constitutes a personal attack as opposed to constructive discussion, but some types of comments are never acceptable: .... * Using someone's affiliations as a means of dismissing or discrediting their views -- regardless of whether said affiliations are mainstream or extreme." Therefore the fact that some of us are members of the Wormwood Society is an irrelevant argument and, according to Wikipedia, an unacceptable comment since you are clearly using it in an attempt to discredit our views. Ditto the fact that I do some work on La Clandestine. I have therefore removed the extracts you posted from my online bio. 09:51, 23 November 2007 (UTC) Alanmoss (talk) 09:53, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

"that some of us are members of the Wormwood Society" ALL are members actually. Ari, Shabba (Reviews Editor) and you. The Wormwood Society promotes your brand - you even say so on the La Clandestine wiki page you created. Your webshop is also listed in their buy absinthe recommendation page for vendors. The Worwmood Society founder sells his own absinthe via absinthe.de (another recommended vendor on his site), and has written an article called "What's Wrong with Czech Absinth" I have illustrated the fact that there is bias and commercial interest in the creation of these false categories, and that Wikipedia is being abused by a small organised group. It seems there is nothing I can do about it. RedSalmon (talk) 11:02, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

I didn't create the category, both the companies and communities did awhile ago, I am just trying to find a fair name for it. Reasons have been given and were ignored. I have asked you to help better the article, instead you insist on attacking the people and waving conspiracies about, it's your loss I guess. When you are ready to discuss the problems you see and ways to fix them, I'll be willing to listen again. -- Ari (talk) 18:54, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

Bohemian style, What's in a name

Since this has come up in the rather meandering section above I thought it would be good to split it off.

The word 'absinthe' is used in a number of different contexts and thus it's important for an article to focus on a specific use, otherwise it would end up the size of a book. This article focuses on the most commonly assumed product, a high proof liquor commercialized at the end of the 18th century containing anise and wormwood that slowly became popular in france, peaking around the early 20th century, etc. The page uses one pre-ban manual for the absinthe definition (cross checked with another manual and literature of the time).

Isn't it the case that the Duplais manual specifically states that any of the ingredients in absinthe can be in lesser/greater proportions and still be absinthe? “It is always optional to diminish or increase the quantities of the ingredients in the foregoing recipes according to the taste of the manufacturer, or the price of the article he wishes to produce…” ( p.239).RedSalmon (talk) 11:29, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

Yes it says variations are possible but it also gives reasonably hard lines as to what variations will change something from "absinthe" to something else (as seen by other recipes that are similar to absinthe yet are in a completely different section). (also note, as a translation not all statements can be taken by their literal meaning). In the same sense that if you are making oatmeal raisin cookies but remove the oatmeal and raisins but add chocolate chips, you are no longer making oatmeal raisin cookies. -- Ari (talk) 16:47, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

The lack of legal definitions has allowed any product to be called "absinthe" and the checkered past has allowed many myths to permeate common knowledge about absinthe and the page needs to address this. So the question is, what do we call products that call themselves absinthe and connect themselves to the early 20th century drink but don't match the page (and pre-ban) definitions of absinthe? How do you explain the myths and how they have been used to spread both real absinthe and 'bohemian style' products. It's not a small fraction that can be ignored thus it needs to be addressed in the article.

Which brings us to section naming. Possibilities heard thus far,

• Bohemian style - This is what is currently used, it isn't as polarizing as the others, the 'bohemian' term is used by some 'bohemian style' producers both in the czech republic and out. Complaints are that A) it still connects the product to "bohemia" part of the czech republic, and B) it still connects modern non-absinthe drinks with the "bohemian" life style of Paris which absinthe is known to be a part of. So it isn't perfect.
• Anise-free absinth - This is sometimes used but is really an oxymoron, since as defined above absinthe contains anise, "anise free absinth" is like saying "Juniper Free Gin."
• Absinth - Many 'bohemian style' products use the spelling without an e, and some sites suggest staying away from anything without an e, however there are real absinthe products and historical references to "absinth" thus it fails.
• Czech Absinth - Some 'bohemian style' producers/retailers use this term and absinthe information sites do as well often because the majority of 'bohemian style' drinks comes from this area, however it does suggest all czech products and only czech products are 'bohemia style, which is false. Thus it fails.
• Wormwood bitters - Plusses are that it has no regional connection and best describes the product. Complaints are that it's too english centric, a direct translation into french would be "Absinthe Amer" a classification of real-absinthe and that it's never used on other sites, many retailers are reasonably apprehensive of disconnecting this product from the history of real-absinthe.
• (enter yours here) - For those who dislike these choices, please provide an alternative, explain why it is better and if it has any support/complaints.

(Note, for this writing "real-absinthe" refers to drinks that fall under the page definition and 'bohemian-style' to the drink described in that section.) -- Ari (talk) 22:32, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

"Since this has come up in the rather meandering section above I thought it would be good to split it off" Good idea. Let's see if we can remove this anti Czech bias and have an end to it.RedSalmon (talk) 09:39, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

That would require you to talk about the article, support your statements and provide helpful alternatives. -- Ari (talk) 16:47, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

Red, your accusations (both here and at multiple blog sites) that this article and the WS, FV, etc are racist/ethnocentric, etc are cumbersome and factually untrue. Neither the Wormwood Society, nor this article is in any way anti-Czech. The reasoning behind Mr. Stone's article re: the problems behind 'Czech' absinthe is well founded. There are many untruths regarding absinthe that quite a few 'Bohemian' or 'Czech' (or whatever you want to call them) brands propugate solely to sell their product.

Here are some points from the article. Please also note that the article makes it clear that it is an EDITORIAL, so all reading can recognize that it is solely an opinion. Although you may not like his stance, it's difficult to argue with the below points. I can cite examples to prove each of them:

1. We say "Czech" style absinth because this product was first widely marketed from the Czech Republic in the late 1990s, and the majority of Czech-style brands are produced there

2.The nomenclature has nothing to do with nationalistic sentiment, only the practical facts of provenance.

3. In marketing materials, labels, web sites, etc., of many Czech brands, connections are frequently made with 19th French absinthe traditions and personalities.

4. In a world full of absinthe-related art and antiques from all over France and Switzerland depicting absinthe drinkers and absinthe itself, glasses, spoons, advertising posters, menus, catalogs, price lists, books and distillation manuals, antique absinthe bottles (sometimes with the intact and drinkable product still inside)there is nothing from the Czech Republic or the former Czechoslovakia and not one hint of the now-popular and equally spurious "Czech Fire Method" of preparing absinthe prior to 1998.

5. The marketing is so flashy and alluring, especially to curious, exploring young people, that it is common to find people who believe that absinthe actually originated in the Czech Republic and that all the best "real" old style absinthes are made there.

6. Others insist that Czechs are the "strongest" absinthes - those that will allegedly make you hallucinate due to their allegedly high thujone concentration.

7. Is this a political or cultural bias? Definitely not. In fact, many absinthe connoisseurs who despise Czech absinth also happen appreciate good Czech beers.

Feel free to comment on any of the above points. I'd like to see where you would say that they are wrong.

Shabba53 (talk) 15:50, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

In response to the wrong assertion #4

From this book http://www.olivaabsinth.com/skin1/images/static/OttoDictionaryDate.JPG Comes this entry about absinthe http://www.olivaabsinth.com/skin1/images/static/OttoDictionaryAbsinth.JPG This advert from a distillery making absinthe http://www.olivaabsinth.com/skin1/images/static/Ad%202%20large.JPG And this advert selling absinthe http://www.olivaabsinth.com/skin1/images/static/Ad%201%20large..JPG

This information was taken from this page http://www.olivaabsinth.com/history-of-absinthe-buy-absinthe-pg-11.html 24.17.253.57 (talk) 02:36, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

Care to translate? From what the website says, you kind of proved the point.

"It mentions that the best absinthe is the "Suisse" version and that it can be bought in shops."

Mentioning Swiss absinthe is not the same as mentioning brands that are commercially made in the Czech Republic. Also, with all of the discussion about producing evidence over the past year or so, how come only now is it brought forth?

Lastly, I can't read what it says, so this is purely speculation, but some of those entries may even be mention of the herb (Grand Wormwood) and not the drink. We all know A.A. has been used for centuries in other elixers, tonics, and drinks.

Point number 4 also states no mention of the fire ritual. I don't see that in the pics either. Shabba53 (talk) 02:26, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

As this wikipedia entry states, Suisse does NOT denote origin. The dictionary infers that there are more choices than just the suisse available in stores because otherwise the "best" would be a meaningless reference.

As to why it is now being brought forth, is because someone obviously put a lot of work digging into this because they had something to gain from it. There is much less proof available because a huge amount of it was lost or destroyed during the Communist times. It's not just sitting around in piles like in the Western Europe.

Your speculation is grasping at straws. Why would a producer mention selling and/or making all kinds of types of alcohol, but then just sell the herb. That's just silly.

You are right about the fire ritual. Nobody has produced any proof of this, but who cares? It seems all but certain that absinthe was produced in Bohemia around 1900. Let's separate this from the marking of a new and fun way of drinking absinthe. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.17.253.57 (talk) 06:19, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

Dittany

"The main herbs used to produce absinthe are green anise, florence fennel and grande wormwood, often called the 'holy trinity'. Many other herbs may be used as well, such as hyssop, melissa, star anise, petite wormwood (Artemisia pontica or Roman wormwood), angelica root, Sweet Flag, dittany leaves, coriander, veronica, juniper, nutmeg, and various mountain herbs."

Could someone please provide a source for this information? If it's in depth it would be even better. I'm particulary interested in the dittany part, as "dittany" refers to 2 or 3 plants. Aleister Crowley has claimed Dittany of Crete to have been included in absinthe's recipe, but it doesn't seem very authoritative. He is seeking "magikal" properties and not aromatic or medicinal ones. And White Dittany, which is supposedly less "magikal" and is even called "false dittany", actually seems like a fitting absinthe ingredient. Thank you! —Preceding unsigned comment added by KucheKlizma (talk • contribs) 23:11, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

[source needed. It was on the History Channel].

..look pretty unprofessional in an FA article... Ling.Nut (talk) 08:56, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

You are going to have to be more specific. -- Ari (talk) 16:02, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

My edits

I made a lot of edits in one go, generally adding cites for several claims and removing on e uncited claim. It may have looked as if I had removed a section, but I had not. I am now going to repeat the edits one by one so it should be clearer what I'm doing. The uncited stuff, possibly a typo is:

• By 1910 the French were consuming 36 million litres of absinthe per year.^{[dubious – discuss]}

This contradicts the 2 million from the Ian Hutton source. Where does 36 million come from? I could not find it reading the various sources. I *thought* FA class articles should not have dbious uncited sentences, but I'll leave it in this time. Finally I concur with user Ling.Nut above, that this article deos not look like FA-class anynore. For one, the citation style looks poor. I will do what I can but it will need a review at some stage. -Wikianon (talk) 04:10, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

If more people helped I'm sure it would stay an FA. Unfortunately it seems easier not too.

The first section is in error, the Hutton paper doesn't say "height of popularity" but at the end of the 19th century. The 36 million number is 10 years after and can be found here http://www.oxygenee.net/absinthe_FAQFV.html I believe the Conrad book might include some citations as to where the numbers come from but I don't currently have access to mine.

I can find the release dates although I'm not sure how much that means since both are in such low distribution that they aren't available in most markets yet. -- Ari (talk) 05:36, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

Modern Use

Would a range of Absinthe cocktails (how to make, type of glass etc) be of interest? They were created by some of the best cocktail people in London 'Style bars' Momos, Schragers Light Bar, the Met bar etc. They were created for www.absenta.com and a full list can be found there. A source reference to said site would be appreciated. An example:

ABSINTHE SUISEE : 1 part Absinthe, squeeze of lemon, lime juice, sugar over crushed ice in Rocks Glass. (Martina @ Schragers Light Bar)

DECADENT MARTINI : 20ml Absinthe,20cl Gran Marnier, 12.5ml Lemon Sugar, 7.5ml Sugar Gomme and sugar rim martini glass. (Jens Ende @ the Met Bar)

ABSINTHE CLEVERLY: 1 part Absinthe, 1 part Gran Marnier with sugar/salt rim, served in a martini glass. (Chris / Henry @ 57 Jermyn Street)

VOODOO PIGALLE: 25ml absinthe , 15ml Midori, 15ml Green Chartreuse, dash of Gomme and a splash of lemon juice, shake and serve in Rocks glass.

(Brunot @ Voodoo Lounge)

If it is please leave me a note and maybe someone can help with the formatting Thanks 61.7.183.180 (talk) 05:39, 8 January 2008 (UTC)—Preceding unsigned comment added by Speakeasy-thai (talk • contribs) 11:53, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

Sweet, Bitter, or Sour?

So I came here to find out but I couldn't really determine.

Is Absinthe Sweet, Bitter, or Sour? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Yxklyx99 (talk • contribs) 02:26, 15 December 2007 (UTC)

It tastes like very strong black licorice. Kafziel ^Talk 02:29, 15 December 2007 (UTC)

Which means VERY VERY SWEET, right? I bought some Licorice the other day and while I do like the taste it's just way too sweet for my buds. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Yxklyx99 (talk • contribs) 02:33, 15 December 2007 (UTC)

It's not cloyingly sweet like a liqueur—it goes down as clean as grain alcohol—but I guess technically it's sweet. Tastes like death to me. Kafziel ^Talk 02:56, 15 December 2007 (UTC)

French and Swiss absinthes' flavors come from three main places: anise (which gives it what Kaf describes as licorice flavor), fennel (which also is similar to licorice but a bit more vegetal, and wormwood, which gives it a minty bitterness. A well made absinthe will never be overly sweet, nor overly bitter.

Although uneducated palates might think of the flavor as 'black licorice', there is a distinct difference between anise, fennel and licorice. If you pair them up side by side, you'll be able to understand what I'm saying.

Bohemian style absinthe can be flavored by myriad options, so it may or may not have the same flavor profile as discussed above. Also, the majority of them are much more bitter than French or Swiss style.

Regarding Kaf's comment regarding Everclear, it seems to infer that Kaf drinks absinthe undiluted. Remember, a properly prepared French or Swiss absinthe is diluted with 3 to 4 partts water for every one part absinthe. A prepared glass of absinthe is not much stronger in alcohol content than a glass of wine.Shabba53 (talk) 13:12, 17 December 2007 (UTC)

Daily Science Article

Anyone seen this article? It doesn't give any evidence, only what UC Berkeley scientists "found." --EarthSprite^∞ 07:21, 23 December 2007 (UTC)

Yes. Many if not most of the people who are knowledgeable about absinthe know if that article, which, by the way is seven years old. Many of the suppositions made both in that study, and in Dr. Arnold's book (mentioned in the article) have been refuted. More interesting than the article's findings is one specific sentence: "The National Institutes of Health, which funded Casida's study, have slated alpha-thujone products for further scientific review next year."

That would have been 2001 or possibly 2002. Nothing new has come from them. In fact, many studies that have come out since that article have proven otherwise, as new forms of testing have emerged.

Examination of many of the studies on the effects of absinthe/thujone on the brain show that they did not in fact use absinthe in testing, but pure thujone. Along with that, amounts used were so high that it would be impossible to ingest enough absinthe to get that much thujone without dying several times over of alcohol poisoning. Add to that the fact that alcohol negates much of the effect of thujone on the brain, and you have quite an interesting debate.Shabba53 (talk) 00:19, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

"Banned in Australia?"

In the history section, we first see this quote: "Australia banned the liquor too." Then a bit further down we see, "Absinthe has never been illegal to import or manufacture in Australia." I don't know the truth and am not in the mood to look into it further, but I thought someone who is more of an expert on this subject should fix this.

67.176.183.57 (talk) 07:00, 14 January 2008 (UTC)Tenpercenter

You're quite right - there is no legislative evidence that it was ever banned in Australia, and the comment is unreferenced. Jonathan_Carfax (Jonathan carfax (talk) 04:11, 15 February 2008 (UTC))

Recent effects additions

I have marked the new additions with tag and will remove them if nothing can be provided to support them. I am in doubt anything can be provided as the only studies I have read show thujone is not effective in "microgram" doses and the idea that it is the cause of supposed "lucid effects" (which have yet to be tested for as well) is unfounded. The reality being that lucid effects are only anecdotal and if we were to believe the same anecdotal evidence that supports their existence we find many people who don't get these effects in proportion to thujone levels. -- Ari (talk) 08:19, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

recent changes

I like some of the recent changes but the apparent arbitrary rearrangement of the sections have been reverted back, unfortunately that may have cut out some added information. I also corrected the idea that the controversy was just around thujone and that absinthe is macerated or distilled. The plant mater is macerated and then distilled. Where as products that are called "macerates" ignore the distilling process.

A future edit could also note that the famous Wilde Tulip episode is an anachronism and that Wilde himself never described this experience. -- Ari (talk) 02:26, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

This from the person who made the recent changes - I agree with these modifications. The article looks great to me now, and accurate. - Michal in New York, 2 February 2008 (due to Time Zone differences) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.190.112.209 (talk) 03:06, 3 February 2008 (UTC)