Talk:Abortion law

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[edit] Untitled discussion

The timeline lists Iceland as being first in legalizing abortions, but what about the Soviet union? It's a fairly big and important topic, I don't know when abortions started in the USSR, but since feminism was very strong in the communist movement, it would be very interesting to know...

"Iceland was the first country to legalize therapeutic abortion under limited circumstances, doing so in 1935." I've checked up on this now: While I can't find an exact date for legalizing abortion in the USSR, It was definitively legal under parts or all of Lenin's regime, and also under Stalin until he made it illegal again in 1936 (because he was dissatisfied with the low population growth). So this line is not correct. How about changing it to something like

"Iceland was the first western country to legalize therapeutic abortion under limited circumstances, doing so in 1935. Abortion had then been legal for some time in the Soviet Union, but Stalin outlawed it again in 1936 out of concerns for population growth."

Some information on the subject can be found on [1]

-- Vintermann

It'll be fixed shortly. --DMG413 01:05, 2 Oct 2004 (UTC)

This article, especially the following paragraphs, seems to be non-NPOV. These paragraphs seem to be arguing for the legalization of abortion, don't you think? Many Western countries began to make abortion illegal in the 19th century. Anti-abortion forces were led by a combination of conservative groups opposed to abortion on moral grounds and medical professionals who were concerned about the danger presented by the procedure and the regular involvement of non-medical personnel in performing abortions.

It became clear in the following years, however, that illegal abortions continued to take place in large numbers even where abortions were expressly illegal. It was difficult to obtain sufficient evidence to prosecute the mothers and doctors, and judges and juries were often reticent to convict. Many were also outraged at the invasion of privacy and the medical problems resulting from abortions taking place illegally in medically dangerous circumstances. Political movements soon coalesced around the legalization of abortion and liberalization of existing laws.

I'm sure the neutrality issue has been discussed to death at abortion, which I have not participated in, but maybe an effort should be made here as well. Comments? --Locarno 16:24, 5 Oct 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Canada and decriminalization

Abortion only became decriminalized in Canada in 1988, although i'm not sure how to explain the way it worked...you can take a look at the Abortion in Canada page to get the idea. Basically there was an exception to the law provided for the health of the mother, which became wider over time as some came to include mental health, although access was very unever as a result. Also before that abortions for exteem health reasons were done, but they were not called as such from what i understand (i didn't do a hell of a lot of research on that but when i was looking at Therapeutic Abortion Committees i came across a reference to doctors previously meeting in even larger groups then 3 to cover their asses....but the chance in law did effectively allow abortion so how to you get that in without being real complicated? Also currently there is no law whatsoever on abortions in Canada, although access to abortion is still an issue.--Marcie 15:57, 24 Oct 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Abortion with respect to 14th Amendment

It would be benificial to add a section on the highlights of Roe v Wade and other major decisions on abortion. Also how the Supreme courts view/interpret this issue with respect to right to life. Also there seems to be no mention of the laws eliminating "Partial-Birth" Abortion.

Thanks i'll go take a look there--Marcie 21:49, 7 Nov 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Forced and or Coerced Abortion as family planning

I haven't been able to make a confirmation as to current practices with reputable sources, but in the past the People's Republic of China, in enforcing the one child policy, have engaged in seemingly state-sponsored but not necessarily legislated activity in forcing peasent women to abort their fetuses. From CNN: [2]. There were a lot of other links off of Google but I don't trust their impartiality. The thing I do know is that the combination of poor contraceptive availability, abortion on demand, and the one child policy in China have made gender selection such a problem the government in Beijing has passed a law banning abortion based on gender.

Anyway, I wonder if there are better sources, and perhaps other countries, which still engage in forced abortions?

Buoren 07:14, 30 Nov 2004 (UTC)

[edit] On Jamaica

The chart states that abortion is not permissable whatsoever in Jamaica. However the United Nations (www.un.org/esa/population/publications/abortion/doc/jamaica.doc) suggests that abortions are permissible in Jamaica under certain conditions.

[edit] Problem with the chart

In the UK entry it indicates that abortions are illegal if it's due to rape. However, it can be argued (and i'm sure it has been in the past) that the birth of a child from an act of rape would cause mental anguish to the woman, and therefore make it legal for the abortion to happen. On a side note, I believe that an abortion has in the past been carried out because of a ski-ing holiday, what is the definiton of on-demand? The chart is inherently inflexible to deal with all the different legal aspects. -- Joolz 00:22, 21 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Abortion in the United Kingdom indeed seems to argue that abortions due to rape are legal.
Another problem I noticed with the table was according to Abortion in Sweden abortions are illegal after 22weeks, but the table doesn't reflect this. -- Joolz 22:20, 8 Apr 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Cyber Stalking by SqueakBox

I hae repaired political hijacking and restored neutral discussion. Agwiii 01:12, 9 Apr 2005 (UTC)

This has escalated from vandalism to cyber stalking with SqueakBox following me around on Wikipedia and vandalizing each edit or contribution. I have reported her to the PTB. ==> Agwiii 01:54, 9 Apr 2005 (UTC) I am not a woman. I have not done anything wrong. You are not backing your allegations with hard fact. Who on earth are the PTB, --SqueakBox 02:00, Apr 9, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Abortion law in US and Germany

Being directed to this article, I repost what I said on Talk: Abortion, regarding the abortion map colouring of the US and Germany.

I agree with Tainter, that the US should be pink for "legal on demand". The restrictions cited by Tznkai are really not touching upon the exceptions cited on the map (and are rather periphery anyway.
As for Germany, the situtation is difficult: Abortion is "legal" only for rape and mother's health, but under certain provisions (obligatory counselling) it will not be punished if done during the first trimester. How to paint this? Str1977 18:06, 14 September 2005 (UTC)

I have done the appropriate changes regarding the German law. It's a bit difficult in the last column, so I "overstepped" the limits of the legend. It'll be even more difficult to include this into a map. Str1977 19:08, 14 September 2005 (UTC)

You're right about America. The puce colour is for countries that make specific socioeconomic provisions for abortion in their legal codes and allow it as such -- and America, for all its state and federal level restrictions, doesn't seem to do this. I'm making another series of maps to deal with the state-by-state restrictions in America (see Abortion in the United States). As for Germany, though, most sources I have consulted are satisfied that it fits the designation "abortion on demand" because it allows abortion in the first trimester if conditions are met. As for whether it is technically illegal there, even in the first trimester, I wouldn't even know how to begin to address this and other such legislative complexities without the map's legend having 40 colours. --Kyd 21:38, 14 September 2005 (UTC)
Kyd, apart from rape and mother's health abortion is not legal in Germany (another exception for "eugenic reasons" was declared unconstitutional). The other thing is that a woman seeking an abortion in the 1st trimester can have one if she first undergoes obligatory counselling. Such an abortion is considered "against the law, but not punishable". I know it's a tricky law and frankly I don't like it since it suggests to too many people that abortion is legal.
As for the map, I have been saving your map for private use and played around with it and turned the US pink and covered Germany with stripes. If you want, I can send it to you via e-mail (I don't know how to upload). Str1977 21:54, 14 September 2005 (UTC)
Read the U.N.'s dossier on Germany's abortion law at Abortion Policies: A Global Review and it is in agreement with what you've been saying -- except that, to the question of abortion on demand, it answered "yes." But the map, foremost, is a visual representation of current laws, not the observation of such laws. Spain, too, seems to be similar quandary: the practice of abortion seems liberal but the law not. Should I colour Germany periwinkle -- illegal with exception for rape, life, and health -- until we can devise a solution to the issue that will be both concise and visually appealing? I'm liking the stripes thing, but, unfortunately, I'm worried the white borders plus stripes would make the national boundries more confusing (the solid colours are a lot more visually coherant on a map with countries on such a small scale). Perhaps a new colour to indicate countries in which abortion is illegal but the law is unobserved and/or unenforceable? --Kyd 22:43, 14 September 2005 (UTC)
Well, the UN dossier describes the actual effects of the law, which is unfortunately abortion on demand, though only after obligatory counselling.
The law on this is an akward compromise found in 1995, when a new law was to be adopted after the reunification (until then, there were still 2 laws - one for the West and one for the East). The basis for this "illegal but not punishable" stems from the supreme court's ruling in the 1970s, which ruled a general legalisation in the 1st trimester unconstitutional. It also said that state had to uphold the right to life, but that penal law was not the only way to do this.
It's not so much that the law is not followed (though it's wrongly perceived in wide circles) - it's that the law is 2double-dealing".
I have managed to upload the file, which you an observe here: Image:AbortionLawsMap05.jpg.
Germany is striped (at least it's supposed to be stripes) pink (like Canada) and fair blue (like Poland). Str1977 23:25, 14 September 2005 (UTC)
I edited the map to incorporate your idea. The legend now contains a "striped" option: illegal but unenforced. The colours of the stripes can be used to indicate whatever the particulars are of "in law" and "in practice" in the country. This configuration, however, might be more difficult with the smaller countries, in light of the scale of the map. --Kyd 00:05, 15 September 2005 (UTC)

Could the graphic be modified to include the variations in US law. South Dakota comes to mind. savidan(talk) (e@) 23:31, 26 March 2006 (UTC)

  • Abortion is essentially legal on demand across the United States right now, if you're willing to allow for some elasticity of the term 'on demand.' The restrictions that exist are for notification, education, waiting periods, etc. At the end of the day, though, the reason for the pregnancy is a factor that cannot be taken as a cause for diminishing the legality as far as I know. The Carhart decision could theoretically be taken to argue that under a certain combination of circumstances, the reason for pregnancy could have an effect - but I don't know of any law in effect that fits this. As far as the South Dakota act, it basically isn't enforceable until the courts reach a decision. --DMG413 02:15, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Abortion on demand and the yeses

I notice the are a lot of yeses including for abortion on demand e.g. Canada. Since there is a special category for first and second trimester, this implies that the yes means at any stage. This should be clarified (yes means at any stage. Is abortion on demand really legal at any stage in Canada or many of the other countries with a yes? I suspect the answer is probably no, except perhaps for China? For that matter, some of the other yeses are probably incorrect as they probably only applicable to the first and second trimester. I believe in NZ the yeses are incorrect (see Abortion in New Zealand or at very least misleading as abortions after the second trimester (or 20 weeks more correctly) are much more difficult so we need a way to make this clear. Nil Einne 17:48, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

Another thing. A number of countries such as New Zealand and I believe UK don't technically have abortion on demand. However they do have abortion for mental health reason. Generally speaking, this has been intepreted in these countries that if it's an unwanted pregnancy i.e. you really want an abortion (not because you're being pressued) you qualify so IMHO we need to make it clear even though they don't have it legally, they do more or less have it in practice. This is perhaps somewhat similar to Germany and other countries where it is described as illegal but not punished except that it's quite a tricky legal issue. While abortions on demand might be illegal, abortions for mental health reasons are not. Whether these 'on demand' mental health reasons qualify is usually untested in court. Also, I don't know about in Germany but in NZ and I think UK, the way the laws are and abortions work probably means the Drs would be the ones pubished not the women. This depends on the country in question too I believe since in NZ the laws are rather strict but more liberal in most Australian states and the United Kingdom for example. When the law is intepreted liberally but legally it's a tricky situation, this intepretation generally has two components. The first is the willingness of the Drs involved in agreeing to the abortion to provide it 'on demand' for mental health reasons. The second is the governmentness unwillingness to prosecute or sue for these 'on demand' mental health abortion and likely the inability for anti-abortion groups to sue or prosecute. The opinions of the courts may come in to it to since they are likely the ones who deny anti abortion groups the ability to sue or prosecute. Of course, mental health reasons is not intepreted so liberally in all countries. In Malaysia for example, it's generally not although I've heard people say that if you got a private hospital, it can usually be done... Nil Einne 17:48, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Mozambique

Something really makes no sense in the chart. It says "Yes" to "on demand" for mozambique, yet the color map says no and the same chart says "no" to rape and low social class cases. YoungSpinoza 06:28, 30 January 2006 (UTC)

Laws might have changed. The table is based on data from the U.N.'s Abortion Policies: A Global Review (c. 1997, I think), and, although users update the information here, it's easy to imagine a country being overlooked. I used secondary references in making the map (mid-2005). Also, mistakes will be made when dealing with such a large volume of data. I'll look into it. -Kyd 21:50, 30 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Brazil and "International status of Abortion Law" map

The map referred above doesn't reflect abortion's real status in Brazil. Besides the exceptions listed on the map, according to Brazil's Penal Code, article 128, abortion isn't punished, when induced by a doctor, if pregnancy results from rape and the pregnant consents .

Besides, "National Laws" table on "Abortion Law" article is correct, so the map mencioned is in contraditcion with the article's content. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 201.32.209.108 (talk • contribs) 17:00, 23 February 2006.

You're right. Thanks for the pointer. I have, correspondingly, modified the designation to, "Illegal with exception for rape, maternal life, health, and/or mental health." The "and/or" is of special significance here as Brazil is one of those countries which allows abortion for life endangerment and rape but not health. Perhaps a new colour designation is warranted? -Kyd 04:53, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] "pregnancy is not parenthood"

User:Alienus recently changed all occurrences of the word "mother" in this article to "woman." I'd like to solicit opinions on which term should be used.

"Mother" is a commonly used word to refer to a pregnant woman in medical literature (see, for example, (PMID 10104769]), (PMID 9397758), (PMID 11645667) or hundreds of other articles. Contrariwise, some commentators have discouraged the use of this term (PMID 12696783).

My personal opinion is that I'd rather see Wikipedia follow common English usage than to use this as a political posture. Any thoughts? Nandesuka 22:23, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

If a pregnant woman gets an abortion, is she still a mother? It is a grey area, however I believe using the word 'woman' as opposed to 'mother' is more technical. --Andrew c 22:30, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

Indeed. Another issue is maintaining NPOV.

This is not the first time I've removed excess motherhood from the various abortion articles, and I've actually been lauded for doing so. In contrast, Nandesuka has a history of negative interaction with me, which may color his perspective. Alienus 11:49, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

"Mother" is certainly commonly used. I've often read things about the unborn child/fetus getting nourishment etc. from the mother. The "woman" is not common usage, and seems too far removed from the child/fetus. The "woman" could be any woman. Mother makes it clear which woman it is. And, Alienus, rather than making personal remarks about other users, which you seem to do rather a lot, could you think about whether any of your views could possibly colour your perspective? AnnH ♫ 12:02, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

The problem is that "woman" is accurate and neutral, while "mother" is neither. A woman who has a desired pregnancy is expecting to be a mother, so calling her one now is just a little bit of harmless sloppiness. For that matter, calling an embryo or fetus that is being carried to term a "baby" is jumping the gun, but hardly unfair. In contrast, a woman with an undesired pregnancy will likely abort it, which means that she will not become a mother and the embryo will not become a baby. That's the accuracy problem.
The neutrality problem is that there is a tendency by certain partisans to use maximally emotive language so as to distort thinking. When referring to an egg that has just been fertilized in a petri dish, they call it a "beautiful little unborn baby". And when referring to a teenager who was violently raped by her uncle and has an early chemical abortion, they call her a "mother", then a "murderer". To avoid this bias, articles on abortion try very hard to stick to neutral, medical terminology.
Coincidentally, you've made a career of supporting and enabling people like Nandesuka, which colors your perspective as well. If you pursue this further and continue in your current vein, I will wind up escalating this; I will under no circumstances drop it. I'm quite apathetic about circumcision, but I have very little tolerance for intentional distortions regarding pregnancy. Coincidentally, I also have very little tolerance for meddling and biased admins. Alienus 12:17, 23 March 2006 (UTC)
I am not aware that I have ever edited the same articles as Nandesuka, and the only encounter I recall having with him was when we disagreed over the block of another user, in which case we discussed it civilly, neither of us resorting to name calling, spitting, or accusations of bad faith. AnnH ♫ 12:23, 23 March 2006 (UTC)
Alienus, please review WP:AGF and WP:NPA. Ad hominem arguments don't help matters. Thanks.
Focusing on the arguments, rather than the people, the point I am trying to make is that the word "mother" is used in the medical literature to describe a gravid woman, regardless of her intentions. A simple PubMed search will show this. I agree with you that we should try to avoid words that introduce bias, but one can also introduce bias by using unnatural terminology. For example, if we replaced all instances of "mother" with "womyn", or "human being who has two X chromosomes," that would clearly be clinically correct but so far removed from normal English usage as to introduce a different sort of bias. Obviously, the gap between "mother" and "woman" is much smaller. But we should be following standard English usage, not forging new standards. Nandesuka 12:26, 23 March 2006 (UTC)
I agree with Nandesuka. AnnH ♫ 12:38, 23 March 2006 (UTC)
I agree with the WP:NPA call, but I do not find the use of 'mother' appropriate or neutral in regards to women undergoing abortions. I know this is not inclusive, but [3] and [4] neither use the word 'mother' but instead use 'woman'. I would be interested in finding this literature that uses 'mother' in an abortion context. Do you have any links?--Andrew c 15:54, 23 March 2006 (UTC)
Andrew, see the PubMed links I put in the introduction to this section -- I found those on the very first search I did. Nandesuka 16:11, 23 March 2006 (UTC)
Note also that many complications and procedures that fall before birth (or termination) are performed by maternal-fetal medicine specialists. This includes termination of pregnancy. On the other hand, not everyone always uses the term "mother." The American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists seems to favor the term "pregnant woman"; see [5]. Lastly, I really would not want to be in the room with someone who told a previously childless woman who just miscarried that she is not a mother because she did not go through a live birth, since I suspect the blood stains would be hard to clean. Given the diversity of opinion, I think we'd be justified in mixing in the terms "mother", "woman", and "pregnant woman", selecting as appropriate to avoid stale writing. Nandesuka 16:24, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

I'm not interested in personally attacking anyone, but I'm also unwilling to hide the existence of prior negative interactions that reveal partisanship and suggest a current bias. Take it in context. And, for the record, Ann chimed in to support Nandesuka after he and his buddies maneuvered to have me banned on a misinterpretation of 3RR. In short, this is not a case of two neutral people sharing neutral opinions. Both are on the record as religious partisans, and both have worked together against me personally.

Anyhow, I bet you also wouldn't want to be in the room with a rape victim who just had an abortion when someone calls her a "mother". The simple fact is that, for all the reasons you've already read, "mother" is an inappropriate and partisan term when applied within the context of pregnant women getting abortions. The phrase "pregnant woman", you may notice, is painfully neutral, while "mother" is not. It is also, as has been pointed out, not accurate in cases of abortion.

Frankly, the argument here is overwhelming and you have no basis. If you continue to disagree, I suggest an RFC. I will not back down on this issue unless you have a much more powerful argument than you've offered thus far. Alienus 18:19, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

Your claim that I am "on the record as a religious partisan" is ludicrous and incorrect. You are free to "not back down" all you like. This being a wiki, the other editors of the article are free to discuss and take action, regardless of whether or not you "back down." We've already had some interesting discussion on this topic, and I look forward to more. Nandesuka 18:57, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

Gravida is a medically neutral term that could be used.Killua 18:23, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Abortion Law map

I don't think the map is accurate. The main inaccuracy seems to be France. It lists France as allowing abortion on demand but in France abortion is technically illegal, but a woman can say she's in "distress" during the first 10 weeks of pregnancy to obtain a legal one, so it's a variant of the health exception. JoshuaZ 06:33, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

  • The Abortion in France article seems to point more in the direction of available on demand (at least for the first 10 weeks). That said, the map has to effectively categorize each country - if everything in the map were to be a literal description of the law, there would probably have to be about 200 different colors used. --DMG413 18:10, 8 April 2006 (UTC)
According to The World's Abortion Laws, Abortion Laws of the World, and Abortion Policies: A Global Review, abortion is allowed on request within the first 10 weeks so long as the women specifies that she is in a state of distress. Due to the reason DMG413 stated above, the map considers all countries which allow access to abortion in the first trimester without imposing any circumstantial restrictions as permitting it on demand. -Severa | !!! 18:59, 9 April 2006 (UTC)

You should also consider situations "de facto" and not only "de iure" as in Spain, where there is no a really restriction to abortion during the first twelve weeks. Only a certificate from a psicologist confirming risk of depression is needed. No psicologist has ever been prosecuted for this matter. The abortion rate in Spain is similar to the rest of Europe. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 196.206.242.166 (talk • contribs) 18:23, 26 May 2006.

[edit] North America

You'll find that Central America is in North America, so the title "North & Central America" doesn't make sense, much as "Canada & Ontario" wouldn't make sense. WilyD 20:52, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

You are completely ignoring the more common usage of North America. The North American continent does include both the North and Central American regions. In fact, because there are multiple uses for the word "North America", I believe it is MORE accurate to list both North and Central to avoid confusion. --Andrew c 22:12, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
I'm not ignoring the fact that North America is sometimes used to refer to only parts of North America, but it is not the most common usage, nor is it correct. The article when listed properly as solely "North America" induces no confusion, and anyone can plainly see that the most correct and most common usage is being used. One would be hard pressed to see the heading North America, see a list of North American countries and become confused. To say North & Central America is less accurate and more confusing - to be avoided in a serious encyclopaedia. WilyD 22:54, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
Compare to the continental list at Homosexuality laws of the world ("North and Central America") and Use of death penalty worldwide ("North America, Caribbean"). Geopolitical regions are "lumped" together. "Central America" is just a descriptive term applied to a part of a greater region, North America. No one who uses the terms "Iberia" or "Scandinavia" is claiming that those nations are not a part of Europe. -Severa (!!!) 02:15, 27 May 2006 (UTC)
But would you make a listing called "Scandenavia and Europe"? WilyD 16:28, 27 May 2006 (UTC)
WilyD, you just got told. Move along. --Haizum μολὼν λαβέ 09:03, 24 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Mental health

I mentioned this before but perhaps I rambled too much so it was ignored. However I think we need further clarification of mental health issues. It's intepretation varies significantly between countries. In some countries, it more or less means on demand. For example, in NZ you will be given conselling and support and do need the certification of two doctors but will generally be given an abortion if you want one.

On the other hand, in other countries like e.g. Malaysia which according to the table allows for mental health reasons in the first trimester, it's not really on demand at all. While I believe it varies between hospital and there is somewhat of an underground in private hospital where it may very well be on demand, it's generally interpreted much more conservatively

At the very least, even if we don't clarify by country, we should mention this in the intro

Nil Einne 17:42, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Yes vs * and #

The fact that we have * and # for the table, implies that yes means there is little or no restriction based on trimester. However it appears in some cases, people have missed the * and # even when there are trimester based restrictions. For example, in New Zealand Abortion in New Zealand [6], there are additional restrictions after the 20th week but the at the moment, it suggests there are no restrictions based on the table at the moment, this is not clearly the case. I think we need a fact check and perhaps we can insert a hidden comment in the table to remind people that yes implies there are no trimester based restrictions. Either that or we make a new category for when it's a yes but trimester based restrictions are not noted in the table Nil Einne 18:12, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

  • The introduction states that additional restrictions (social, economic, geographical, as well as legal) may exist. The table is meant to encompass the spirit of the law as far as each circumstance. If it were to encompass every nuance of every restriction of every law (various kinds of waiting periods, information disclosure, medical assent, notification, etc.) in every jurisdiction, I suspect we would run out of letters, numbers and other symbols to reference. Judging by the Abortion in New Zealand page, the first three columns (life, physical health and mental health) are correct as "yes", while the next two columns (rape and fetal defects) need to be changed to #, which I'll change in a minute. --DMG413 02:11, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
    • I'm not saying we should specify every nuance but IMHO we should use the symbols properly. If we have a * #, this implies to me that yes means the country is less restrictive then 2nd trimester. IMHO, it doesn't make sense to have the * and # if we don't always use them. The other alternative IMHO is to include a special symbol when trimester restictions are not noted in the table (doesn't make much sense IMHO but if people are really reluctant to specify in the table for whatever reason or simply do away with them and just yes or no. I still think a fact check would help (I'm not saying anyone has to do it, just proposing) and also think a hidden comment may be useful to remind people of the * and # but whatever if others feel it doesn't matter because we already say the table might not be accurate I'm not going to argue about it Nil Einne 15:23, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Map question

Why is South Dakota coloured in as illegal? (except for mother's life) The South Dakota bill cannot be enforced unless Roe v Wade is struck down. The map should be fixed. Jareand 00:15, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

In general, the map reflects the law which is on the books, not the observation or enforcement thereof. H.B. 1215 is fact in South Dakota regardless of its current constitutionality. -Severa (!!!) 10:48, 17 June 2006 (UTC)
Aren't there a number of other states with old pre-Roe laws that were never actually removed from the books? I'll look into it. --BCSWowbagger 06:32, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

Actually, Jareand is right. I misunderstood the nature of the bill. It was my original understanding that H.B. 1215 was a current, active law, which S.D. intended to enforce immediately regardless of federal abortion law — apparently, according to the South Dakota abortion law, it's actually a "trigger law" which would take effect if and when Roe was overturned. I'm still a little confused on the issue, though, because I've also read that HB 1215 will be enforceable once it clears any court challenges (even if that's before Roe is ever overturned). But, as the issue has also been raised on the abortion law map Talk page, I'm going to revert S.D. until the confusion is resolved.

Potentially useful links:

  • Abortion Bans: map and detailed chart of state abortion bans from the NARAL site. I presume this includes both recent, pre-emptive "trigger" bans and old, pre-Roe "defunct" bans.
  • State Abortion Laws: discusses unrepealed pre-Roe laws but might be outdated.
  • Abortion: Laws and Regulations: ReligiousTolerance.org page with info on recent state initiatives to ban abortion.

-Severa (!!!) 11:07, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Map

[edit] Spain-Portugal

Spain has a more liberal abortion law than Portugal. During the last years many women of Portugal went for abortion to Spain, where a more liberal abortion law exist. And February 2007 will be a referendum in Portugal over a more liberal abortion law.GLGerman 17:52, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Vanuatu table entry

I don't know much about this subject, but it strikes me as unlikely that Vanuatu should have a "No" for mother's life and a "yes" for mother's health. Is this an error? Gnfnrf 00:35, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Abortion on demand in Australia

I have to dispute the 'Varies' entry for abortion on demand in Australia. It is true that the ACT has legalized abortion (and it remains legal in other jurisdictions as well), but I don't see that the ACT has legalized abortion on demand. - Richardcavell 06:58, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Portugal

Portugal appears set to allow abortion on demand in the first ten weeks BBC News story Mostlyharmless 22:49, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for the information. We'll update the map and table when the law officially takes effect. -Severa (!!!) 08:26, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Free abortion

Should we put a note for countries when abortion is free in certain circumstances????—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 65.95.158.189 (talk • contribs) 03:20, 17 April 2007.

Do you have any sources for that information?-Andrew c 13:15, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
[7] - Netherlands, free for citizens. Also, [8] - Bulgaria, free for therapeutic abortions and in case of rape, example referenced to See Anika Rahman & Laura Katzive, Central and Eastern Europe: Recent Trends in Abortion Law, 373, 385, (1999). Pelargonium 20:50, 28 April 2007 (UTC)Pelargonium

[edit] Free until which week?

An important piece of information is lacking in the tables: until which week abortion is free (for countries which have free abortion). This is an aspect which, among other things, explains some differences in the abortion discussions of various countries. In Denmark, the limit is 12 weeks, France: 10 weeks, Sweden: 18 weeks, Britain: 28 weeks, so it varies a lot. As far as I could see from a quick glance at the Abortion in the United States article, there is no fixed legal limit in the US, but courts usually set the limit to 24 to 28 weeks. Now, this is a part of the bigger picture which we Europeans miss when we read about the fiery debate in the US. I know it is quite some work to gather information about all the national rules, but the question is quite important. --Sasper 17:11, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Mexico

Yesterday, abortion was legalized in Mexico City. Also, some states like Yucatán have different laws (allowing abortion for socioeconomic reasons) —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 148.241.190.43 (talk) 15:08, 25 April 2007 (UTC).

[edit] Nothern Ireland part of the uk

I've noticed how the United Kingdom (refering to england/scotland/wales) and Nothern Ireland are listed seperately on the chart yet technically they are the same country and this is sopposed to be "abortion legislation of the world's nations". And the UK is one nation.


Similar to how in Australia has different laws by region, wouldn't it be 'more correct' to include Northern Ireland with the United Kingdom and change the chart to " Yes/Yes/Yes/Varies/Varies/Varies/No"?? 69.158.142.183 06:31, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

Any Objections? MonkeyBoy111 03:49, 17 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Legality of abortion in Germany

Currently, the article states that abortion on demand as well as abortion for reasons of mental health and socio-economic factors are illegal but not punished in Germany. I would disagree. To explain my disagreement, a brief explanation of German criminal doctrine. Unfortunately, I only have German legal literature to back my explaination. Here it goes:
In Germany, an intentional accomplished crime consists of three main elements:
  1. Unrechtstatbestand or external and internal elements of the offense, i.e. Objektiver Tatbestand, or actus reus as external and Vorsatz, or intention as internal element
  2. Illegality - The German legal term is Rechtswidrigkeit and since the German criminal doctrine is different from the criminal doctrine of the English speaking world, illegality logically means something different than the usual English term "ilegal".
  3. Guilt
If the first element of a crime, the external and internal elements of the offense, is satisfied , the actor is punishable for his deeds because the illegality and guilt are presumed to be fulfilled as well, unless the actor provides legal justification or exculpation, thus negating either both or either of the last two elements (illegality and guilt). In order for an intentional accomplished deed to be a crime, all three elements must be fulfilled. Source: Wessels/ Beulke, Strafrecht, Allgemeiner Teil (Criminal law, General teachings), 2004, passim and p. 338
Sec. 218 Criminal Code contains the external element of the offense of abortion. Source: Wessels/ Hettinger, Strafrecht, Besonder Teil 1, Straftaten gegen Persönlichkeits- und Gemeinschaftswerte (Criminal law, Particular crimes 1, Crimes against personal and public interests), 2004, p. 66
According to Sec. 218, a termination of a pregancy is to be punished.
However, according to Sec. 218a, the elements of the offense under Sec. 218 have not been fulfilled, if the pregnant woman requests the termination of pregnancy and demonstrated to the physician with a certificate pursuant to Section 219 subsection (2), sent. 2, that she had counseling at least three days before the operation.
Since the external element of the offense is not fulfilled if the woman bears the said certificate, there is no crime at all. Same result: Wessels/ Hettinger, Strafrecht, Besonder Teil 1, Straftaten gegen Persönlichkeits- und Gemeinschaftswerte (Criminal law, Particular crimes 1, Crimes against personal and public interests), 2004, p. 70
This is also logical as the external element of the offense is, as above-mentioned, an integral element of crime.
Thus, the statement that abortion is illegal but not punished is not logically tenable if "illegal" is meant to convey the meaning that abortion on demand is a crime. While it would be possible to make an argument that abortion on demand complies to the German concept of "Rechtswidrigkeit", since it is possible that something is considered a "Rechtswidrigkeit" or "Illegality" without fulfilling the criteria of the external and internal elements of the offense (Source: Wessels/ Hettinger, Strafrecht, Besonder Teil 1, Straftaten gegen Persönlichkeits- und Gemeinschaftswerte (Criminal law, Particular crimes 1, Crimes against personal and public interests), 2004, p. 70), it would not be a crime, because a crime requires the elements of the offense. I would argue that it is misguided to say that since something is possibly an "Illegality" under German legal doctrine, it is "illegal" in the international meaning of the word. For me, illegal in this artice is nothing but a short version of saying " it is not a crime". And I hope to have demonstrated and my cited legal literature agrees that abortion on demand is not a crime in Germany. Blur4760 00:09, 3 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Situation has changed in Argentina

Hello! I'm informing you that now in Argentina there have been modifications of the abortion law, and you should be fixing it, because now its different.

Mauri 200.122.23.61 19:04, 7 October 2007 (UTC)


[edit] Abortion in India

According to this link, abortion looks to be available by consent. I'm going to change it soon if nobody its uncontested. Corpx (talk) 03:29, 27 February 2008 (UTC)