Image talk:AbortionLawsMap.png

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Contents 1 Brazil 2 Northern Ireland 3 Broken image 4 New Zealand 5 Problems 6 Germany and Austria? 7 Luxembourg 8 South Dakota 9 Changes to Australia 10 Differences? 11 Spain - Portugal 12 Legend question 13 South Korea 14 Faroe Islands 15 Brown region 16 Portugal Referendum 17 Mouse Over For Countries? 18 US regional differences 19 United Kingdom 20 old information, pre-pope's visit 21 Laws in Austria 22 life and/or health 23 legend terminology: on demand 24 Bhutan 25 POV problem

[edit] Brazil

Brazil should be in orange, as it allows abortion in rape cases. Article 128 of the Brazilian Penal Code reads: 'Art. 128 - It is not punishable the abortion practiced by a physician:

Necessary abortion

I - if there is no other mean to save the pregnant woman's life;

Abortion in the case of pregnancy resulting from rape

II - if pregnancy results from rape and abortion is preceeded by consentment from the pregnant woman or, when unable, her legal representation. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 201.6.198.34 19:48, 12 March 2006 (talk • contribs).

I actually amended this a couple of weeks ago. However, someone reverted to an older version of the file. Re-uploaded the newer, fixed version. -Kyd 07:52, 13 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Northern Ireland

Does UK abortion law really differ in Northern Ireland than from the rest of the kingdom, to the degree that it is essentially identical to the policy of the Republic? I tend to doubt it. LeoO3 06:16, 18 March 2006 (UTC)

According to this site, Northern Ireland permits abortion only in the exception of saving the woman's live; however, the law is also interpreted to include the preservation of both physical and mental health. This would place it under the same category as The Republic of Ireland: "Illegal with exception for maternal life, health, and/or mental health." -Kyd 08:48, 25 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Broken image

--Boborok 08:10, 30 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] New Zealand

How old is the data, to my best knowledge abortion is fully legal in New Zealand —Preceding unsigned comment added by 219.88.79.176 (talk • contribs) 20:10, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

I think the same is true for Great Britain 87.112.19.182 19:17, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Problems

I tried updating the map. However, there seem to be issues with in the appearance and/or creation of in-article thumb nails, so I reverted to an older version. The changes I made included reverting the status of Northern Ireland from green to red, as abortion is forbidden there, despite the fact that it is a part of the United Kingdom (see BBC News, "Q&A: Abortion in NI"), and moving the legend from the bottom of the image to the side. Anyone know what's up? -Severa (!!!) 02:04, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

What were you trying to change? – Zntrip 02:42, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

Like I said, to change Northern Ireland from green to red, and to move the legend from the bottom to the side. I have tried reverting to older versions, using the Wikicommons version (Image:AbortionLawsMap.png), and uploading an entirely new version (Image:AbortionLawsAroundtheWorld.png). Still, there is a problem loading thumbnails within articles at certain sizes. I am at my wit's end. -Severa (!!!) 02:47, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

Do you mean that in some articles the image hasn't changed? It takes a while for the change to effect articles. – Zntrip 04:42, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

No. The images are showing thumbnails at some sizes but not at others. -Severa (!!!) 05:05, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

I'm realy not that good with this stuff. Try the Wikipedia Computer help desk. – Zntrip 05:24, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

Thanks. -Severa (!!!) 05:27, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

I read at the Help Desk and Village pump that other users are encountering the same problem. The solution is to purge the image page multiple times until the thumbnail icons reappear at the desired size. -Severa (!!!) 13:55, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Germany and Austria?

What color are Germany and Austria meant to be? I haven't read the laws, but a very talkative woman I met there made it sound readily available. Looking at de: Schwangerschaftsabbruch it seems that an abortion is available in Germany in the first 12 weeks after completing an offsite consultation, or at any time for the heath of the mother or fetal defects. Austria looks pretty similar. Is there a reason they're a special color that I'm overlooking? — Laura Scudder ☎ 14:42, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

The "striped" colour, in fact, represents two colours: blue ("Legal on demand") and orange ("Illegal with exception for rape, maternal life, health, and/or mental health"). It is used to denote countries in which abortion is technically illegal, but where the termination of pregnancies goes unpunished, or the law is unenforced.

See the discussion "Abortion law in US and Germany" at Talk:Abortion law. A resident of Germany informed me that, in his country, first trimester abortion is, "against the law, but not punishable" — a product of the combination of the opposing abortion laws of East and West Germany after unification in the 1990s. See Abortion in Germany. Apparently, the same holds true in Austria, but I can't find the discussion that lead to its designation being changed at the moment. -Severa (!!!) 10:31, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

I see now. The stripes meld into a new color when not at full size and I was wondering what that color was supposed to be. — Laura Scudder ☎ 17:59, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

But i think the country should not in "striped" colour; blie ("Legal on demand") is more correct. Women have during the first three month on demand the right for abortion. They only have a talk for help to follow.GLGerman 00:11, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

Sorry, but you are wrong. In germany abortion is illegal but will not be enforced. Maybe you talk about the situation in austria which I do not know. --89.12.90.99 19:41, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

Austria should be blue. Abortion is available on demand. — Graf Bobby 22:54, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

I have to disagree here. While §212 of the Strafgesetzbuch makes abortions illegal, it defines 3 exceptions: a) If the woman has one hour of counseling, she can LEGALLY have an abortion in the first trimester. b) If the pregnancy is caused by rape, the woman may have LEGALLY have an abortion in the first trimester. c) If there is a medical danger for the woman, an abortion may be had AT ANY TIME. See also http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abtreibung#Rechtslage_in_Deutschland --134.155.24.124 16:22, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

BLUE would be the right colour. Practically every woman can have an abortion if she goes to a institution talking to her and showing her alternatives and consequences and at the end giving out a paper notin she was counseled. The decision is than in her hand and she can legally have an abortion or decide against it. This is basically on demand, with a enforced talk to a special person.--Stone 11:15, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Luxembourg

AFAIK, abortion is available on demand in Luxembourg, i.e. it should be cyan —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Stereo (talk • contribs) 23:15, 16 June 2006 .

According to Abortion Policies: A Global Review, published by the U.N. in 1997, abortion is permitted in Luxembourg in these circumstances: "when the continuation of the pregnancy or the living conditions that may result from the birth are likely to endanger the physical or mental health of the pregnant woman; when there is a serious risk that the child will be born with a serious disease, physical malformation or considerable mental defects; or when the pregnancy can be considered as resulting from rape." If you check the "External links" section of the article, Abortion law, most sources agree it is allowed on "socioeconomic grounds," although with strict informed consent and waiting period requirements.

Do you have more up-to-date or detailed information on the current legal status of abortion in your country? -Severa (!!!) 13:44, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

It looks like you are right indeed – I apologise. The law appears to be applied quite liberally though. I'll see if I can find more information. --Stereo 01:17, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] South Dakota

• Can someone more knowledgeable than me in terms of updating the map please change South Dakota back to legal on demand? The law recently passed by the state legislature is essentially of null effect unless it such time as it survives a court challenge. For the time being, at the very least, abortion is still legal in South Dakota. --DMG413 00:38, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Changes to Australia

I've just uploaded a new version with some changes to the Australia section, based on (my interpretation of) Abortion in Australia. Basically: the law differs in the states/territories, so the borders need to be added (even if it's mostly the same for the purposes of this map). The ACT has "abortion on demand". I read the page as saying that in NSW, the anti-abortion laws are unenforceable, whereas in the other states they may or may not be unenforced, so that's why NSW is different from the rest. But maybe it shouldn't be ... —Felix the Cassowary 15:44, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

The map was originally intended to cover international, not intra-national, laws. Too much information to process at once. Thus, I recently removed the U.S. state boundaries, and you should probably revert the Australian borders too. Why not create an individual map to cover the specific state-by-state legality of abortion in Australia (see Abortion maps)? I've been meaning to do so myself, but I've been unable to find an up-to-date, neutral breakdown of Australia's state laws. -Severa (!!!) 03:11, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

It's not possible to do that while being accurate. I got the impression that abortion is a national issue in the US and most countries from reading the articles surrounding this, but in Australia it's a state issue, so there's no national abortion law, and no color you could do. Regarding an up-to-date, neutral breakdown, do you have some particular problem with the article I referred to? (Regarding Victoria, it's quite likely to become "on demand" after the state election due this November, against the will of the (current and almost certainly future) Premier.) —Felix the Cassowary 03:18, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

(reset indent) There is a limit to the amount of information which can reasonably be conveyed in visual format. If we try to cram in too much, we'll only succeed in overwhelming the viewer, or rendering the map confusing. I understand that the legality of abortion in Australia varies from state to state, as it does in the United States, but many national laws must be "generalized." It is already hard enough for some to distinguish international borders at this resolution without throwing more into the mix. I recommend the creation of another colour code, "varies by region," in keeping with with Abortion law. Perhaps horizontal stripes? You or I could always make a seperate map of Australia if you want to cover the states individually.-Severa (!!!) 04:54, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

it is probably better with Australian borders removed, it seems they were missed in the last reversion to 'Remove intranational borders', have removed them now. A separate map should be made for the article Abortion in Australia --Astrokey44 06:32, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

Severa, the varies by state idea makes sense, and means the state boundries of Australia wouldn’t like quite so odd because of the projection. :) —Felix the Cassowary 15:25, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

I updated the map to include a new "varies by region" designation. I was slightly at a loss as to what colours to select for the stripes, as using all the colours featured in Astrokey's map below would again be informational overkill, thus defeating the entire purpose of removing the state borders in the the first place. I suppose I could apply the same logic used by the Center for Reproductive Rights' world abortion map and base classification upon the laws of the most populous states. I chose brown as a second colour because three states in Astrokey's map were brown. Let me know if this isn't logical. I can change the colours used. -Severa (!!!) 02:15, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

is this correct? --Astrokey44 23:34, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

"South Territory" should be "South Australia"; it's actually a state. As far as the data's concerned, it's probably right according to the legislative intent. As for the international map, why not make "varies by region" black? It'd be easier to distinguish. —Felix the Cassowary 10:22, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

My bad on "South Territory." Sorry. Thanks to Astrokey for correcting it. I also altered the world map from horizontal lines to solid charcoal (pure black, unfortunately, made Australia resemble a Rorschach blot). -Severa (!!!) 18:09, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Differences?

What are the differences between green, brown, and orange? I don't quite understand. The Jade Knight 19:35, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

orange has more restrictions - abortion legal only for rape, maternal life and health - brown is legal for those with the addition of fetal defects - light green has legal for those reasons with the addition of socioeconomic factors --Astrokey44 01:38, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Spain - Portugal

I think the colour in Spain isn t correct. On CNN was a report, that in Portugal will be in winter 2007 a election over the question abortion. And until now many women of Portugal went to Spain because in Spain is a more liberal abortion law.GLGerman 00:13, 21 October 2006 (UTC) The colour in Spain should be blue (abortion on demand)GLGerman 00:14, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

If you think this should be changed you should provide some proof or sources for this information. --89.12.90.99 19:40, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

According to Abortion Policies:A Global Review, Spain's current designation ("Legal for rape, maternal life, health, fetal defects, and/or mental health") is correct. -Severa (!!!) 17:03, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

Laws in Portugal and Spain are very similar, but applied very differently. While in Spain in practise this means that any woman can ask for an abortion (at least in private clinics) in Portugal the medical approval is taken seriously. But last sunday portuguese voted for the legalization of abortion on demand until 10 weeks, so the portuguese color on the map should change, although the new law will be ready only around Summer.. [1] —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 89.26.178.53 (talk • contribs) 17:01, 14 February 2007.

Change Portugal [2] —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 89.26.180.188 (talk • contribs) 00:09, 19 February 2007.

[edit] Legend question

"Legal for or illegal with exception for rape, maternal life, health, fetal defects, and/or mental health"

Shouldn't that just be "illegal with exception for rape, maternal life, health, fetal defects, and/or mental health"?

Its very confusingly worded —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 69.47.227.234 (talk • contribs) 12:34, 23 October 2006.

In New Zealand, abortion is technically permitted only for these reasons, but, most New Zealanders wouldn't consider it "illegal" there because the mental health clause is interpreted broadly by doctors. However, in other countries, abortion is clearly illegal, but with the same set of criteria (save for mental health) as exceptions to the ban. The wording was selected to accommodate both, thus, removing us of the need to create yet another colour to crowd up the legend. -Severa (!!!) 16:23, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] South Korea

I think South Korea is the wrong color. --75.72.170.94 22:12, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

I have altered the status from blue ("Legal on demand") to brown ("Legal for rape, maternal life, health, fetal defects, and/or mental health"), in accordance with information from Abortion Laws of the World, Abortion Policies: A Global Review, and A Global Review of Laws on Induced Abortion, 1985-1997. I hope that this amends the error. -Severa (!!!) 08:28, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Faroe Islands

The Faroe Islands have stricter abortion laws than Denmark, abortions are only allowed in cases of rape, risk to mother's health or risk of fetal defects. So they should be brown. --Bjarki 23:37, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for pointing this out. I've changed the map accordingly. -Severa (!!!) 08:38, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Brown region

I am confused with the wording of "Legal for or illegal with exception for rape, maternal life, health, fetal defects, and/or mental health".--Filll 14:18, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

This question is answered above in the thread "Legend question." -Severa (!!!) 14:48, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Portugal Referendum

[3] the new law will be on effect before Summer, but investigations on ilegal abortions were already stoped. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 89.26.180.188 (talk • contribs) 00:11, 19 February 2007.

Thank you for this information. We'll change Portugal's status on the map once the new law takes effect (as we did with Nicaragua). -Severa (!!!) 13:42, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

The law was approved today on the parliament, you can change the map now ;) —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 89.26.210.53 (talk • contribs) 00:10, 9 March 2007.

All burocracy is done now, you may change the color of Portugal [4]. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 89.26.187.52 (talk • contribs) 13:25, 12 April 2007.

I have updated the map accordingly. Thank you for the link to the NYT article. -Severa (!!!) 10:25, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Mouse Over For Countries?

Is it possible to have a 'Tool Tip Text' style pop-up when mousing over different countries? I know what about 25% of the countries are. w00tboy 06:09, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

Pop-up mouse-over text on an image would probably function through coding something like an image map. Image pages on Wikipedia are basically automatically generated from the filename, and it's not possible to insert mark-up into an image file — so you couldn't set it up so that pop-up mouse-over text automatically displayed on every single Wikipedia page on which this map was viewed. It might be possible to create a mouse-over text arrangement in a single article by inserting the image into that article and then coding mouse-overs in HTML, but it would be a pretty time-consuming and kilobyte-heavy creation, and it's probably just easier to check out the tables at Abortion law if you're looking for info from a specific country. -Severa (!!!) 09:30, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

If you really wanted to do it, you could have something like Template:World Labelled Map with all the countries labelled --Astrokey44 09:53, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] US regional differences

Abortions right vary greatly in different US states. The map ought to present the US in the same manner it presents Australia. Signature^brendel 18:18, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

The map classifies Australia as it does because the actual legality of abortion varies from state-to-state. For instance, in the Australian Capital Territory, it is legal on request, but in Queensland and Victoria it is legal only to protect the pregnant woman's life or health. U.S. states place different restrictions on access to abortion, such as parental consent or mandatory waiting periods, but the procedure is still legal throughout the country. South Dakota tried to enact a ban on abortion in 2006, but this law was repealed in November of the same year. It really isn't possible to cover all the intricacies of U.S. abortion law within the format of a single global map; this is why three thematic maps were created for Abortion in the United States. -Severa (!!!) 10:48, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] United Kingdom

The UK, excluding Northern Ireland, should not be in green. Abortion is allowed on demand, and it should therefore be in blue, Britain has some of the most relaxed abortion laws in Europe, this is quite offensive to suggest that they are stricter than France's and the ones in the USA. Abortion is legal up to 24 weeks, whereas in France I'm pretty sure it's only 12 weeks. Change this! We aren't a backward country! —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 77.97.89.106 (talk) 16:27, 31 March 2007 (UTC).

The colour designation is based upon the circumstances in which a country allows abortion; the map does not provide information on the time in pregnancy, or gestational age, in which abortion is allowed. According to "Abortion Policies: A Global Review," abortion in the United Kingdom is permitted in cases in which the pregnancy poses a risk to the woman's life, physical health, or mental health; if a congenital disorder is detected in the fetus; and for socioeconomic reasons. This best coincides with the the green colour designation, "Legal for rape, maternal life, health, mental health, socioecomic factors, and/or fetal defects." -Severa (!!!) 10:21, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

I don't care what data you can find I know that abortion is available on request in the United Kingdom! If a woman wants an abortion she visits her doctor who must sign to consent the abortion, then the doctor passes it onto a second doctor, who must consent it awell. Therefore it's available on request. Meaty Weenies (talk) 19:24, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] old information, pre-pope's visit

abortion is now illegal in cuba

--83.131.0.58 10:13, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Laws in Austria

I'm Austrian, and I know that abortion during the first three months of pregnancy is perfectly legal, not just an unenforced law. The colors on the map aren't correct. 86.59.59.20 14:23, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

The legality of abortion on request in the first three months of pregnancy was confirmed by checking the references listed at Abortion law. I have removed the orange stripes from Austria on the map, leaving it coloured completely blue, which is used to indicate a status of "Legal on demand." -Severa (!!!) 14:17, 3 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] life and/or health

There are alot of countries where it's pink for life and/or health exceptions in a large cluster. Think it would be better if we separate them to 'life and health' and just 'life'?? 65.95.140.34 07:22, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

It is likely due to a common political and/or social background that many countries in which abortion is illegal are concentrated together geographically. As for creating new, separate colours for "life" and "life and health," this is a good idea, although I'm not really sure if it would serve to break up the monotony — countries which are currently designated red ("Illegal with exception for maternal life and/or health") may still border each other for the reason I've noted. -Severa (!!!) 14:38, 3 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] legend terminology: on demand

The color coding of the U.S. and much of Europe and Asia as "legal on demand" is inaccurate and does not reflect the variations reflected in the table within the article on Abortion law. My greatest concern is with color-coding the U.S. as "on demand". Between the 3-trimester strategy of Roe v. Wade and allowed state restrictions, characterizing the availability of abortions in the U.S. as "on demand" is clearly inaccurate and inconsistent with the table in Abortion law. Perhaps a new color is needed for something like "Generally legal, with regional or trimester restrictions". -- Sfmammamia 23:56, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

I think the comments you have made are at least partially addressed by the response I made in the thread "US regional differences" above. The basic point is that, in Australia, the legality of abortion varies state by state, but in the U.S. abortion is legal throughout the whole country. While it is true that some states do impose certain restrictions like mandatory waiting periods and parental consent, they do not limit abortions to only being performed under a narrow set of circumstances, such as rape, incest, or threat to the life of the pregnant woman. For the purposes of this map, any country that does not restrict the circumstances under which abortion is permitted, even if only in the first trimester, is considered as practically allowing it "on demand." Most abortions are carried out early in pregnancy, and, if I recall correctly, very few countries in which abortion is legally available don't have some form of trimester-based limitation. It is difficult to convey a large amount of information in a visual format without overwhelming the viewer. Thus, the data presented by the map have been somewhat simplified, and the map is intended to serve as a supplement to the tables at Abortion law and the country-specific articles in Category:Abortion by country. -Severa (!!!) 13:14, 3 October 2007 (UTC)

Thank you for clarifying. Perhaps, like the United Nations in its [most recent chart], you should consider changing the legend term "On Demand" to "On Request". Then the definition could be referenced back to the UN definition and there would be less likelihood of people arguing with it. I believe that "on demand" has become a charged term, and using the same terminology as the United Nations would have greater credibility. -- Sfmammamia 18:56, 3 October 2007 (UTC)

The "World Abortion Policies 2007" chart that you have linked to is a very handy, up-to-date reference. I went ahead and added it to the "References" list at Abortion law and have also brought the legend's terminology in line with that which the U.N. uses in its publications. I believe that the seven specific conditions of legality which form the basis of the tables at Abortion law were originally drawn from the seven categories used in the .doc files of "Abortion Policies: A Global Review." -Severa (!!!) 02:43, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Bhutan

This document (http://www.searo.who.int/LinkFiles/Improving_maternal_newborn_and_child_health_bhutan.pdf) indicates that abortion is illegal in Bhutan except when the life of the mother is at risk. QuinnHK 02:22, 3 October 2007 (UTC)

Thank you for providing this source. I have updated this map and the table at Abortion law accordingly. -Severa (!!!) 13:39, 3 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] POV problem

I have tagged this image as requiring a clean up because different colors should be chosen in order to avoid a POV problem. When I looked at the text for this image I noticed that the current color scheme was taken from Death Penalty World Map. This seems to me to be an obvious implication that abortion is somehow linked with the death penalty. Note that the light blue in the latter image equates with countries where the death penalty is legal and with countries where abortion is legal in the Image:AbortionLawsMap.png image. --S.dedalus 23:54, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

You are incorrect, in that the Death Penalty World Map uses light blue for countries where the death penalty is abolished, and the red color for countries where it is legal. That said, I'm not sure we need to change the colors of the map. I believe that visual identity, and map standardization are important things. I believe repeating color-use is an integral part of establishing consistency between wikipedia articles. I wouldn't be opposed to changing both maps to an even more standard set of colors, or considering switching around what colors represent what categories of country. However, I believe having the two maps sharing no colors is a step in the wrong direction, and creating visual chaos in inconsistency across wikipedia. -Andrew c ^[talk] 00:48, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

You are correct; my bad. I was trying to read the German and didn’t notice the English translation below. I still feel it is a bad idea to use this color scheme. I see no reason why these two maps in particular should share colors unless this is a widely established standard on other similar maps. If so could we please change the “Color scheme partially borrowed from Death Penalty World Map” sentence to link to a less controversial map? --S.dedalus 02:14, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

The colour scheme of the map originally used pink and light purple, but for people with red-green colour deficit that particular palette appeared as one colour, so a new scheme was selected in order to increase viewability to the colourblind segment of the population. The current colour scheme has been tailored to suit their needs so I don't see how altering it yet again would help. The reference to the death penalty map is exactly the same as the reference to the template this map uses (Image:BlankMap-World.png): it's simply giving credit where credit may be due. If this reference is an issue, though, the solution is a simple as removing it — no need to go POV-tagging anything. -Severa (!!!) 02:11, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

It’s fine by me to point out that a color scheme appears somewhere else, but perhaps another map could be selected to illustrate this. Baring that, yes, I think it would be best if that clause were removed to stifle the appearance of a POV. --S.dedalus 02:17, 31 October 2007 (UTC)