Talk:Able Archer 83

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[edit] Stanislov Petrov

You guys should really think about adding in a bit about the hero Stanislov Petrov. It really adds a valuable dimension to the discussion about Near Nuclear Incidents in 1983. He may have saved the world, and he was recently honored by the UN with a prize. Here is the link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanislav_Petrov Thanks for the consideration. Marcwiki9 03:58, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] NATO's Able Archer script

The Channel 4 programme mentioned above gives a description of the NATO script. I think this would be a valuable addition, however it doesn't make total sense. Does anyone have a source with a better description?

  • Day 1 - Nov 3 - Diplomatic incident leads to military reactions.
  • Day 2 - Nov 4 - The Soviet Union invades West Germany, Greece and Norway.
  • Day 3 - Nov 5 - NATO predicts imminent use of chemical weapons by Soviet Union.
  • Day 5 - Nov 7 - The Soviet Union employs chemical weapons
  • Day 6 - Nov 8 - Supreme Allied Commander approves a nuclear response, targetting 25 sites in Germany, Czechoslovakia and Poland.
  • "Throughout the night of the 8th of Nov the entire Soviet war machine waited for the nuclear signal"
  • "At dawn the following day.." [Nov 9] "..the Soviets intercepted the NATO signal that nuclear missiles had been launched"
  • "On the last morning..." [Nov 10] "...350 imaginary nuclear weapons were launched at targets in eastern Europe and the Soviet Union"
  • Then the exercise suddenly stopped, it was Armistice Day.
Queries
  • Why is "Day 1" the 3rd. Should that not be the 2nd?
  • Is the 25 target attack different from the 350 missile attack? It has to be, 350 missiles wouldn't be used for 25 targets?
  • It says the NATO signal that nuclear missiles had been launched was picked up on Nov 9, why would the exercise leave a day between signal and actual launch on the 10th? Mark83 (talk) 20:34, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Split Article

This article should be split into Able Archer 83 and Able Archer war scare or 1983 war scare. Because while there was an incident talked about in this article labeled the Able Archer war scare the actual war game Able Archer 83 was only one part of the war scare. Thus there should be two articles. If I don't see any feedback I will split them. -- Esemono (talk) 02:03, 12 April 2008 (UTC)

Split as reasoned. -- Esemono (talk) 12:38, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

Looks like a bad split, the new article is riddled with grammatical and MoS errors, and if not improved, will need to come to WP:FAR. I suggest undoing this damage, which appears to be based on a consensus of one. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 15:35, 1 May 2008 (UTC)


This looks like a bad move, this article is not featured quality, and there are grammatical and MoS errors throughout. Unless this is reversed and correctly quickly, the article should come to WP:FAR. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 15:34, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

Does anyone know where the FAC, article history, and featured article diff went ? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 22:41, 1 May 2008 (UTC)
Esemono, please stop moving these pages and ask for assistance. Where is the featured artile, and where is the FA history? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 22:35, 1 May 2008 (UTC)
And where is the move request? 129.108.25.78 (talk) 22:36, 1 May 2008 (UTC)
Wasn't a move request it was a Split request. I posted almost month ago about Splitting the article into the war game itself and the actual events that lead to the Nuclear scare of which the war game was apart of. -- Esemono (talk) 01:30, 2 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Requested move

This article was moved from Able Archer 1983 to 1983 nuclear war scare with no consensus for the move (thus it never should have happened in the first place). The article is also not needed, the original title included 83 to disambiguate the exercises named Able Archer with this particular exercise so as to aviod any confusion between the two. Moreover, in this form the article should not be designated featured, as only part of the original article was moved to this new title. Therefore, I propose moving this page back to Able Archer 83 to restore the material originally in the article, to maintain the article's FA-status, and to comply with the MoS requirements that a page be listed under only one title.

  • Support: As I said above, the absence of any consensus to move the page should be justification enough to return it, but the fact that both articles now discuss what is essentially the same incident means one of the two must go, and with all do respect to theis article Able Archer 83 was here first. TomStar81 (Talk) 18:22, 1 May 2008 (UTC)
  • Oppose: Nothing would be gained from merging these two articles. Able Archer 83 was only part of the 1983 nuclear war scare. I believe it is correct to have larger sections split off from the main article into their own articles. Also there is a lot more to the 1983 nuclear war scare than just this one exercise. They deserve to be two separate articles. Gaia Octavia Agrippa Talk | Sign 19:14, 1 May 2008 (UTC)
  • Comment Whatever the merits of the move, it does look as though Esemono left a note here on 12 April, and then waited more than long enough (until 1 May) before making the move that he/she had proposed. It was a bold move, perhaps, but it didn't go against consensus, and there had been an attempt to initiate discussion. Is this article on nobody's watchlist? --jbmurray (talk • contribs) 19:22, 1 May 2008 (UTC)
  • I suspect the issue is that TomStar81 (talk · contribs) is tied up with school. At any rate, until this is sorted, we need to have an FA articlehistory somewhere, and for now, that's here, since 70% of the content was moved here. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 19:25, 1 May 2008 (UTC)
  • Support: Per "Moreover, in this form the article should not be designated featured, as only part of the original article was moved to this new title. Therefore, I propose moving this page back to Able Archer 83 to maintain the article's FA-status" and "one of the two must go, and with all due respect to this article, Able Archer 83 was here first" although not because of the "here first" bit, but coz "Able Archer 83" got FA, not "1983 nuclear war scare". Ryan4314 (talk) 19:48, 1 May 2008 (UTC)
  • No Able Archer 83 is a war game only. What got FA was a mislabeled article describing how close the world came to nuclear war NOT an article about one war game. Look at the article that got the FA what is about? The Able Archer war game OR a series of events that that INCLUDES the Able Archer war game?-- Esemono (talk) 00:53, 2 May 2008 (UTC)
  • The editing history is at Able Archer 83. That history should end up wherever most of the article is (if it stays split). Anyone can restore the article to its full former state at Able Archer and leave this a redirect. Gimmetrow 21:00, 1 May 2008 (UTC)
  • There was nothing to rectify, and I wish you would stop moving things around. Gimmetrow 23:04, 2 May 2008 (UTC)
  • Support Should all go back at Able Archer 83. Buckshot06 (talk) 22:28, 1 May 2008 (UTC)
  • Oppose Able Archer was part of the 1983 war scare. I have now moved the article so that the history talk page etc has been moved with the new article -- Esemono (talk) 22:39, 1 May 2008 (UTC)
What you have done here is created a train wreck and a logistical quagmire for at least three wikiprojects and two editers. If, as you postulate, this was part of a large war scare, why did you create what is essentially another Able Archer 83 article under a different name? Have you even done any research into the other war scares? And if we do in fact need an article about all of the nuclear scares in 1983 MoS certified summary style should be used to add a paragraph or two about able archer 83 into the new article rather than have the new article copy ver batim 70% of what had been until today a Featured Article. More over, why wasn't this move brought up with the MILHIST project or the Cold War project, and why would you not request a move for a featured article? Did it even occur to you to go out and seek input from others before creating this train wreck? 129.108.25.78 (talk) 22:45, 1 May 2008 (UTC)
I've left Esemono several messages asking him to stop, and I've been trying to enlist someone to fix all of this. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 22:50, 1 May 2008 (UTC)
The article history still exists, I did broach the subject before I did the split. -- Esemono (talk) 22:52, 1 May 2008 (UTC)
I'm talking about {{articlehistory}}. We now have an article name that breaches MOS, questions about which article is the featured article (and which will now have to go to WP:FAR), and an articlehistory detailing a featured article missing somewhere in these moves. Please leave repair to someone who knows how to sort this out. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 22:59, 1 May 2008 (UTC)
Pieces: from Gimmetrow, the original featured version, and Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Able Archer 83. Still haven't found the {{articlehistory}}, and not sure where the other article went, and article title uses incorrect upper case. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 23:22, 1 May 2008 (UTC)
Found the ah, still need to get the article to a title that conforms with MoS, and fix WP:FA listing. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 23:30, 1 May 2008 (UTC)
Found the rest of the original featured article, which was Able Archer 83, now at Able Archer 83 (war game). Still not sure if something needs to go to WP:FAR after this. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 23:38, 1 May 2008 (UTC)
  • Support This article is on my watchlist, but the talk page edit in which Esemono suggested a move was hidden by a simultaneous archiving. I didn't notice that a split was on the table until it happened. It was poorly conceived and should be reversed. Melchoir (talk) 00:25, 2 May 2008 (UTC)
    I believe that this is the talk page edit to which you meant to refer, no? On 12 April. --jbmurray (talk • contribs) 00:30, 2 May 2008 (UTC)
    Right, thanks! Melchoir (talk) 00:39, 2 May 2008 (UTC)
  • My intention wasn't to "sneakily" hide my broaching the subject of splitting the article, I was just being efficient. And while you didn't see me open the discussion on the talk page you should have seen me add the "Split" tag on the article itself. -- Esemono (talk) 00:57, 2 May 2008 (UTC)
    • Yes, I should have seen that edit (and you should have provided an edit summary). The problem we now have is that a consensus wasn't reached before the split. As long as we agree on that, we can forget the why. Melchoir (talk) 01:19, 2 May 2008 (UTC)
  • I'm not trying to blame anyone for not responding to this issue for almost a month. Most of the opposition to this Splitting of the article seems to be a knee jerk reaction to the move itself which for various reasons, of which I'm partly to blame, wasn't discussed. I just hope people take a step back and look at the logic of the article split. Able Archer was a war game only. The 1983 war scare was a series of events of which Able Archer was one part. Thus there should be one article for Able Archer and one article for the series of events that lead up to the 1983 war scare. -- Esemono (talk) 01:35, 2 May 2008 (UTC)
  • I'd like to get a correct article name (which we don't have now, the title shouldn't be uppercase), so we can submit to WP:FAR (no need to submit the wrong article to FAR); this is not featured quality. I'm hoping Kirill and other MilHist folks will weigh in on the correct article name and the split, and make sure we have all the history pieces intact now. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 01:45, 2 May 2008 (UTC)
  • The article states that "The threat of nuclear war abruptly ended with the conclusion of the Able Archer 83 exercise on November 11". It sounds to me as if the scare is exactly scoped to the exercise, both logically and temporally. Therefore, an encyclopedic article on the 1983 nuclear war scare is the same thing as an encyclopedic article on Able Archer 83. And of course such an article will cover background material whether or not it happened to take place in the calendar year 1983, such as Pershing II deployments, Operation RYAN, and PSYOPs. Melchoir (talk) 05:58, 2 May 2008 (UTC)
  • It ended with Able Archer because the nuclear war scare was many events that culminated,peaked and finished with the Able Archer. Able Archer was a war game that was part of the 1983 nuclear war scare. Reverting it back to Able Archer is like renaming the World War II article Japanese bombing of Nagasaki because World War II abruptly ended with the dropping of the nuclear bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki -- Esemono (talk) 07:41, 3 May 2008 (UTC)
    • If this article were at 1983 nuclear war scare (without caps), would it or wouldn't it include the September 1983 incident with Stanislav Petrov? Or is that a different war scare from 1983? Perhaps the article needs to be at Able Archer because simply calling it "1983 war scare" is ambiguous? Gimmetrow 07:52, 3 May 2008 (UTC)
      • Calling it Able Archer is ambiguous because what do you mean? Able Archer the war game only or Able Archer the war scare of which the Able Archer war game was a part of? The name isn't important as long as it isn't Able Archer as Able Archer was a just a war game that was part of many events that made up the 1983 nuclear war scare. Able Archer war scare, 1983 nuclear war scare are all good. -- Esemono (talk) 09:08, 3 May 2008 (UTC)
        • "1983 nuclear war scare" seems ambiguous to me. But if you accept a title like "Able Archer war scare", how is that substantially different from the title "Able Archer 83 war scare"? or "Able Archer 83"? Also the Followup and Reaction sections focus heavily on the military exercise. Gimmetrow 09:21, 3 May 2008 (UTC)
          • I'm fine with the title Able Archer 83 war scare as it tells the reader that this article is about the nuclear war scare not the war game that took place in 1983. But I think 1983 nuclear war scare is better as Able Archer was only part of the war scare. The Able Archer war game was part of many events that made up the nuclear war scare. The title the article was called before the split, Able Archer 83 is just the name of the war game, one event of many events that made up the 1983 nuclear war scare. If the article is called Able Archer 83 it confuses the reader who thinks that it is about the war game only not the Nuclear scare of which Able Archer was apart of. The Followup and Reaction sections focus heavily on the military exercise because it was part of the Nuclear War Scare. -- Esemono (talk) 09:41, 3 May 2008 (UTC)
The comparison to WWII is misplaced. "It ended with Able Archer because the nuclear war scare was many events that culminated,peaked and finished with the Able Archer." is an empty tautology. And the difference between an article "about" the war scare and "about" the military exercise is a technicality.
These dubious theoretical arguments don't justify the practical consequences. You've created a new article which still takes place half in February and October and has more to do with Soviet reactions than the mechanics of the exercise, which was ostensibly your goal. Much of the remainder, in the Reaction sections, is still centered around Able Archer, and not because it was "part of the Nuclear War Scare". Note that it's not describing reactions to KAL 007 or the SDI. It's talking about Able Archer.
All of the material was written to discuss Able Archer specifically, and it needs to stay together. This is not to say that you can't take a broader lens and write about large timespans on Wikipedia; see Cold War (1979-1985). But here, we once had a comprehensive article on Able Archer, and we should restore it. Melchoir (talk) 11:14, 3 May 2008 (UTC)
  • If that's the conclusion (that this title is fine), then it needs to go back, from 1983 Nuclear War Scare to 1983 nuclear war scare. I'm indifferent on the title, but whichever it is needs to conform to MOS. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 13:14, 2 May 2008 (UTC)
  • Actually, my conclusion is that it's pointless to have two articles on one topic. The split should be reverted and the FA "Able Archer 83" that existed two days ago should be restored. Melchoir (talk) 18:18, 2 May 2008 (UTC)
  • Move. I don't see a good reason to split the article given the current content. The article wasn't that long, and did not need to split off a subarticle. If (and only if) someone expanded the details of the Able Archer exercise to include an hourly or finer timetable could I see it justified. Recombine the article. I see this split now involves *four* pages. Don't make any more pages or someone is likely to get indef blocked. Gimmetrow 22:40, 2 May 2008 (UTC)
  • I did some cleanup in here, so I hope it's not lost. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 00:29, 3 May 2008 (UTC)
    • This is (currently) where the edit history can be found, so any changes here will be kept. I hope we won't have to preserve any changes from the text of Able Archer 83 (war game), though. Gimmetrow 03:12, 3 May 2008 (UTC)
      • OK, I won't do anything over there. I'm going to unwatch; I hope someone will ping me when it's settled, so we can see if FAR can be avoided, and make sure all the FA pieces are in the right place. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 03:25, 3 May 2008 (UTC)
  • Support. While I will defer to the more experienced editors, I feel that the events should be included in one article. I am open to changing the title of the article to better reflect the large number of factors which contributed to the war scare, but I believe that since Able Archer 83 played a substantially larger role than any other factor, it should be in the title. As an aside, I have never seen a reference to a NATO Able Archer (83) exercise without reference to the nuclear war scare. (Not that this trumps wiki conventions)Natebjones (talk) 03:09, 4 May 2008 (UTC)
  • Strongly Support This article is on my watchlist, although I have been away for a while, so have not noticed this move until now. Excercise Able Archer is an extremely important event during the Cold War and I would not add it to the War Scare article by completely subsuming it. Able Archer was the key event for this scare and as such should be left alone as a separate article. The article on Able Archer was also featured, and should therefore be preserved as much as possible, particually so since it is an extremely notable one. Although Able Archer was part of the scare it was the culminating event, and the most likely to lead to a possible war, as the origional article noted. This makes it vital that the origional article is preserved in its previous format. Apologies if this sounds rather over the top, but I feel that this should have been left for a much longer time before being moved. --J.StuartClarke (talk) 01:24, 5 May 2008 (UTC)
    • Er, I think that's a "support" !vote to move back to the previous state? Melchoir (talk) 01:59, 5 May 2008 (UTC)
      • Er, yes. Sorry... Got confused as to whether I was supporting the move back or opposing the origional move. Thanks. --J.StuartClarke (talk) 15:28, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

Okay, that's plenty of time; I'm pulling the trigger. Melchoir (talk) 00:53, 7 May 2008 (UTC) ...done. Melchoir (talk) 02:06, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Section Break I

  • OK, so would everyone be happy with putting the pieces back together and having the article as it was originally, but named "Able Archer 83 nuclear war scare", with a redirect from Able Archer 83? Gimmetrow 02:38, 5 May 2008 (UTC)
    • Why add "nuclear war scare" to the title? The way I see it the "83" advertises the fact that this was a nuclear war scare because a generic article on able archer would discuss the general overview of the exercise, not the resulting nuclear war scare. Moreover, "Able Archer 83 nuclear war scare" fails the google test: 175,000 result for Able Archer 83 vs 59,400 for "Able Archer 83 nuclear war scare", and as noted at Wikipedia:Naming conventions (common names), an article should be listed under the name that people are most likely going to type in to find it. How many people are going to type in "Able Archer 83 nuclear war scare"? My guess: not many. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.31.25.155 (talk) 03:46, 5 May 2008 (UTC)
      • I agree with 75.31. If you include quotes the numbers on Google are 21,000 vs. 0. A long title provides little benefit to the reader, who is still going to have to read the intro section to find out what the topic is. And I think all sides on the split debate would probably agree on the following principle: If we do stay at one article, that article's scope should be kept wide. Editors should feel free to contribute interesting information about Able Archer 83 even if it doesn't strictly concern the war scare; adding "nuclear war scare" to the title might discourage such edits. Melchoir (talk) 04:17, 5 May 2008 (UTC)
        • Well I personally prefer the shorter name, but this was an attempt to solve Esemono's concern. Gimmetrow 06:34, 5 May 2008 (UTC)
          • Fair enough; obviously I can't speak for Esemono either. Melchoir (talk) 08:37, 5 May 2008 (UTC)
            • The article should just be called "Excercise Able Archer 83" since this is it's name. People looking for Able Archier 83 under NATO exercises would therefore be able to find it. It's not really a war game, since to most people that would imply actual people moving about a simulated battlefield, whereas Able Archer was entirely conducted on paper, and never actually imvolved any people outside command centres, other than occasional radio operators. --J.StuartClarke (talk) 15:32, 6 May 2008 (UTC)
              • Not sure what you mean there. The original FA, "Able Archer 83", never referred to Able Archer as a war game, instead calling it a "NATO exercise", so you don't have to worry about that. And unlike some of the "Exercise X" articles in Category:Military exercises and wargames, Able Archer 83 doesn't necessarily have the word as part of its name. If you run this search, the word "exercise" is never capitalized or taken into the quotation marks; it's used only as a description or epithet. On this search, you do see a few capitalized instances of "Exercise Able Archer", about 10-20% of hits. "Able Archer 83" without the "Exercise" is still the most common name. Melchoir (talk) 16:50, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Subsequent events

I notice that the "subsequent events" section has been lost. (diff) Here is its text in a stable version after the article went on the main page. Perhaps someone can provide references and restore the section?

  • Able Archer 83 was the last nuclear scare of the Cold War. By 1983 the United States, under the leadership of President Ronald Reagan, was in the middle of a massive arms build up, one which would last throughout the mid and later half of the 1980s. United States policies of the 1980s, such as the 600-ship Navy, drove home the US desire to continue opposition to the Soviet Union by any means necessary. In the Soviet Union, the declining health of then General Secretary Konstantin Chernenko led to the rise of Mikhail Gorbachev in 1985. Gorbachev's policies and programs within the Soviet Union, intended to maintain and secure the union — notably glasnost and perestroika — set into motion the events that ultimately and unintentionally led to its dissolution in 1991.

Melchoir (talk) 01:40, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

Are we not deleting the new redirects at 1983 nuclear war scare, 1983 Nuclear War Scare, Able Archer 83/Archive1 and Able Archer 83 (war game)? Gimmetrow 02:14, 7 May 2008 (UTC)
I figure they're not hurting anyone. (Are they?) Melchoir (talk) 02:17, 7 May 2008 (UTC)
Gimmetrow, I'll fix WP:FA. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 02:22, 7 May 2008 (UTC)
HA! You already did :-) SandyGeorgia (Talk) 02:23, 7 May 2008 (UTC)
(and ec here :-) Well, there was another "nuclear war scare" in 1983: see Stanislav Petrov, so if we're leaving that redirect this page should either mention that incident or have it in see also. The (war game) one doesn't matter to me. Gimmetrow 02:25, 7 May 2008 (UTC)
Hmm, in that case, deleting would be safer. You want to take them to RfD? Melchoir (talk) 02:47, 7 May 2008 (UTC)
See also works for me. Gimmetrow 02:58, 7 May 2008 (UTC)
Good enough to avoid FAR, so I'm unwatching again; hope TomStar81 gets back soon ! SandyGeorgia (Talk) 02:33, 7 May 2008 (UTC)