Talk:A Coruña

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This page was improperly moved. You should go through Wikipedia:Requested moves, and you certainly should not just copy and paste the article text, which destroys the edit history. - Montréalais 21:36, 30 August 2005 (UTC)

Contents

[edit] Corunna is now being forgotten

"At this point the name Corunna entered English (with the Gallicized spelling Corrugna also appearing in the 18th century), although this name is now being forgotten, and tends to be replaced with the local names, which as noted above are La Coruña in Spanish and A Coruña in Galician." This strikes me as a POV. Please provide source for such a statment. If it were being replaced by anything it is not "La Coruña" or "A Coruña" but would be "Coruna". --Philip Baird Shearer 00:49, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

You are right I will soon change everything to A Coruña, name in Galician an Spanish. La Coruña is not official, as it comes from Franco diratorship times. --Stoni(talk) 11:26, 20 December 2005 (UTC)
I beg to disagree. "La Coruña" has been used in Spanish for centuries. The fact that the Galician spelling has been made the only official name in Spain in recent years does not mean that the Spanish name does not exist. Why have you deleted all references to the name in the article? Even if you think that "La Coruña" shouldn't be used nowadays, the article should mention the name, since it is still the most common one in English texts. Personally, I would prefer to use the English traditional name "Corunna" for the article. --AngelRiesgo 02:38, 22 December 2005 (UTC)
"A Coruña" is most certainly not the name that is used in English. The current location of this page is against wikipedia policy. It is either called "Corruna" or "La Coruña" in English. I have never seen "A Coruña" until just a moment ago. john k 21:59, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

Since 90's National Geographic Atlas (or Times, or What You Want) only states "A Coruña". It has been the official name both in Galician, Spanish and Chinese since 1983. And yes, in 1600 text you can find "Corunna", and surely in AD75 ones "Portus Artabrorum".212.51.52.4 22:47, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Brutal Deturpation?

In Linguistic issues: How on earth is the phrase 'brutal deturpation' (deturpation=to make foul) neutral POV?

86.133.21.97 10:29, 20 July 2006 (UTC)


[edit] NPOV cleanup

Article edited as part of work on the NPOV backlog. Since the disputed text seems to have been edited out, and there has been no discussion suggesting further disagreement, the tag is removed. If you disagree with this, please re-tag the article with {{NPOV}} and post to Talk. -- Steve Hart 17:41, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Naming controversy

Partially reverted recent changes regarding name: included line 57: [1], rewrote this [2]. As an encyclopedia WP should use the official name, but include other forms in use/used. Steve Hart 20:52, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

I hope we can definitively finish the matter of the name: the only legal name for the city is A Coruña, whatever the language you use within Spain, and I think it is fully aplicable the [policy and style guide] -the trouble is not on Galician side but in nationalist Spanish one which simply does not want to use the current official and legal name, with the most pintoresque argumentations. The most known name for the city in English was the Spanish one the whole 20th century at least. 212.51.52.7 08:48, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
I have reverted your edits. According to WP:NCON (which you linked to) the most common name should be used as the article name. It's my understanding that in this case this is also the legal name. However, WP:NCON does not mean other names should not be mentioned. On the contrary, Wikipedia is an encyclopedia and shall represent all notable viewpoints and facts: "NPOV says that the article should fairly represent all significant viewpoints that have been published by a reliable source, and should do so in proportion to the prominence of each." See: WP:NPOV and WP:N. In this case, both the local "conflict" and the fact that readers might be interested to know what other names are used/have been used, qualify as notable. -- Steve Hart 14:16, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
So if you think so, but please note that one part only tend to use the legal and only name, and it's the other part (the minority but noisily one) which are against, and it's not the Galicians, I insist, nationalist themselves or not (including "spaniardist" ones) who are using the Francoist toponym, but Spanish nationalists ones who are using, against the law, La Coruña.212.51.52.8 16:38, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
There seems to be tangible support for early use and current use of all versions, see [3] [4] [5]. Further, the Spanish form is still used publicly, alongside the legal one (e.g. the soccer club). Anyway, I've rewritten the paragraph to include both positions. As an encyclopedia WP should include both current use and historic use, and both political viewpoints. Hope this helps. -- Steve Hart 19:25, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
I'm afraid I explain too bad, please excuse me and excuse my poor English. "Corunna" is really a Spanish word, and from Spanish it entered on English. You of course know the Spanish "letter" ñ is (or was, as you prefer) a double nn, it is not the case of the French La Corogne, for instance. An English term, like canyon (also from Spanish cañón) would be Corunya. By the way, it is unclear that roman Brigantium was A Coruña, but it is true that some historicians believe so. Corunna, as you can read in the links you supply me, is an out-of-date term, in public Libraries here I found a 1973 edition of Chamber's Encyclopaedia as the term is La Coruña, in Spanish of course. I mean, until 1983 in the English-speaking world it was known so, and Corunna is a very old term like many others out of use and not cited in Wikipedia, but of course it is true you can find "Corunna", and the older the text, more you read. And, the use of "La Coruña" or "A Coruña" is not neutral, of course it is in English, but not in its spanish context. I disagree with the term "Galician nationalists", it is true that many "Galician nationalists" take part in a kind of political battle, but not all, and not only "Galician nationalists" are in favour of "A Coruña". For instance, the Spanish Socialist Party (PSOE) or the Galician (regional) branch of PP, in a stronger rejection, are publicly against the use of "La Coruña" (and curiously as you know, not the PSOE ex-mayor, belonging to it by now, who was the main figure supporting "La Coruña"). The only strictly true is that "Spanish nationalists" are who supporting "La Coruña", and no other people. Many people not nationalist of any side, not even Galician (or Spanish) at all, supports "A Coruña" simply because it is the legal term since 1983 and they have no interest on boost Francoist flames. It is the legal name! How can be possible that "Galician nationalists" are defending the legality agains "Spanish nationalists"? I think this point is not well explained since is seems to be a confrontation between nationalists of two sides, and it is an artificial debate which clear intention to call attention. I live here and it is not a conflict at all (for instance, ALL local newspapers use A Coruña, and in Spanish), i.e., people do not talk about it, nor worry, I mean the name ("Galician" or "Spanish"), what really is a big problem, is the continuous defy of the law by the ex-mayor (only him) who in all cases has lost all trials: it was the Municipality the main (and only) supporter of "La Coruña". Note that this problem simply does not exist with Ourense/Orense or Ferrol/El Ferrol del Caudillo, which theoretically would be the same case. Excuse me once again by such a post like this.212.51.52.7 20:44, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
Ok, you make some good points. I've made a couple of edits, both at the top and in the language section. Please have a look at and post back -- Steve Hart 22:30, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
Thank you very much for your time (and work). From a non-NPOV, the subject is the ex-mayor had a great interest in diverting public opinion out of his familiar and personal bussiness which are not matter of interest here, and of course, many other people with certain ideology had also interest in support it. Please also note that ALL trials before the High Court of Galicia and High Court of Spain were unfavorable to him (they were paid with Municipality funds). I think it is no case for a major "natural" debate. About the English name, I think "old English" is a bit exaggerated, maybe I'm wrong but, for instance, Saragossa was the only English name for the city (of Zaragoza) until recent times, and it is no longer in use, including the Wikipedia itself, and Zaragoza is a city of greater importance than the town A Coruña is. The only major event in history where the name Corunna appears is Battle of Corunna, in fact "Battle of Elviña" (the place name where the battle was fought, nowadays a suburb of A Coruña). 212.51.52.7 00:04, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
Well, you wanted the edit "very old" for the English ... :) Anyway, I've had a look at some British websites, and La C. seems to be mostly used in public life, while Corunna is often the name of (old) hotels, etc. As for the history in this, here's a couple of links you may of may not find interesting: From Monarchy to Civil War, An Eyewitness Account (scroll down 2/3rds for La C.), and Language, Democracy and Devolution in Catalonia (PDF, 350 Kb, on Madrid and regions). -- Steve Hart 01:52, 11 August 2006 (UTC)
Can Anyone provide any English texts that use the term "A Coruña". I have always seen either "La Coruña" or "Corunna," usually the former, and certainly the former in sources post-1983 (if anything, I'd say that up through the 1960s, "Corunna" was probably used," so that "La Coruña" has largely come into use in the period when it has not been the official name. Anyway, sources for use of "A Coruña" in English are earnestly requested. john k 00:18, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
It is not very hard find a lot of them. Use of "La Coruña" in English I think is by far prior to 1983, but usually in older texts it can appear "La Coruña (Corunna)". I suppose the article (A/La) means an strange particle to English (like "La Habana" = "Havana", but "Las Palmas (de Gran Canaria)"). Problems are that web searchers usually does not resolve "A Coruña" from "Coruña" or "La Coruña", the "letter" ñ, and that perhaps the main origin of news about A Coruña is its soccer club which names itself with the former name La Coruña. Links using "A Coruña", National Geographic [6],Time Europe [7],for instance it seems to be 99% of cnn.com talks about of soccer club, calling it "Deportivo Coruna" (sic), you can read this very curious piece of news where there are "La Coruna", "A Coruna" [8], I'll try to find more examples later. And please also note that the one of three National Geographic information quoting "La Coruña" is related to the town Planetarium, a Municipal service (i.e., it's part of the Municipality).212.51.52.5 08:48, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] English language name is Corunna

In the same way that wikipedia in English say Seville and not Sevilla, the common English language denomination should be used: Corunna. Both Galician and Spanish name should be mentioned in brackets but the article has got to be named Corunna. This article was moved out of process. I will submit a query on WP:RQM to restore its English language title and protect it against further disruptive actions. Regards, Asteriontalk 15:20, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the debate was no move. -- tariqabjotu 21:18, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Requested move

A Coruña → Corunna – Corunna is the traditional English language name for the city. Article was copied and pasted onto current location out of process Asteriontalk 15:31, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Survey

Add "* Support" or "* Oppose" followed by an optional one-sentence explanation, then sign your opinion with ~~~~

  • Support. Nominator. --Asteriontalk 15:33, 23 September 2006 (UTC)
  • Oppose Traditional English names for foreign cities sometimes fall into disuse such as "Oporto" (Wikipedia's article for this city bears the local name Porto). The same might have happened to this city, at least I don't recall ever hearing "Corunna". --Húsönd 16:52, 24 September 2006 (UTC)
Addendum: the fact that I have never heard "Corunna" might be because I used to live not far from that city and people around naturally use the local name, even in English. I will change my stance to "support" if more English speakers confirm that "Corunna" is still the prevalent form.--Húsönd 00:06, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
  • Support, I've only heard of this city as Coruuna. 70.55.84.87 17:05, 24 September 2006 (UTC)
  • Support, I came across to this page from WP:RM, I don't know anything about the story.. I know of this city as Corunna as well, it can be named as A Coruna in Galician Wiki, but in the English one it would be way too confusing for non-Galician or non-Spanish speakers.. Baristarim 22:32, 24 September 2006 (UTC)
  • Support or move to La Coruña, "A Coruña" would appear to be at best a third choice. The city's web pages use "La Coruña" on their English-language pages.[9] Gene Nygaard 22:50, 24 September 2006 (UTC)
Note: "La Coruña" is the Spanish name for the city. The Galician form is now more prevalent and the city nearly always appears as "A Coruña" in road maps and atlases. Furthermore, most people in Galicia speak Galician as first language. The website of the municipality/city hall is bilingual, both forms appear.--Húsönd 23:04, 24 September 2006 (UTC)
Ok, I had no idea, you see how it is confusing.. :)) Baristarim 00:12, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
Another note: I checked the other Galician cities' articles and their names appear in Galician. The Spanish form "La Coruña" is thereby to be rejected, just in case.--Húsönd 00:22, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
La Coruña (also spelled without the diacritic) seems to be the denomination preferred by the BBC in English [10] (I have removed entries related to the football team Deportivo La Coruña). The problem is that picking La Coruña over A Coruña may offend some people, and A Coruña is not common in English (road maps would indeed use the local official name in order to stop motorists getting lost, of course). Corunna is also used but this usage has decreased in the last twenty years. Asteriontalk 00:34, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
That is sound. But I still prefer to wait for more people to agree with "Corunna" before supporting the move.--Húsönd 00:54, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
Yes, Husond, the website is written in three languages. It is "La Coruña" in English as well as in Spanish, and "A Coruña" in Galician. We English-speakers, of course, are just as free to spell it differently from the way the Galicians do as the Spanish-speakers are. Gene Nygaard 13:27, 25 September 2006 (UTC) Or differently from the way the Spanish spell it, or differently from both, of course. Gene Nygaard 13:29, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
Fortunately, this move isn't a matter of different spelling, but rather a switch to a different form of the name as traditionally used in English.--Húsönd 21:03, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
  • Oppose; Corunna little-used in contemporary English writing, especially academically. Either A Coruña or La Coruña better. Aquilina 22:12, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
  • I'd support a move to La Coruña. "Corunna" is a bit archaic. "A Coruña" maybe locally used, but is not the way it is best known to English-speakers. I would prefer "Corunna" to the current title, but I think "La Coruña" is best. john k
  • Neutral. - the real (archaic) English name of Corunna is The Groyne (see 1911 Britannica). I'm surprised it's not in the article but that will change momentarily. -  AjaxSmack  01:57, 26 September 2006 (UTC)
  • Oppose per Aquilina; either the current form or La Coruña would be fine, but not this little-known variant. Palmiro | Talk 15:05, 30 September 2006 (UTC)
  • Strongly Oppose, there are many different english names for other foreign cities --> Dunkirk for Dunkerque, Brussels for Bruxelles, Oporto for Porto etc. 89.32.1.82 19:25, 30 September 2006 (UTC)
  • Oppose. Corunna is little used in current English, almost as little as Leghorn, besides which it conflicts with other places of the same name. I'd marginally favour "La Coruña", if only to help redress the Galician nationalist bias that seems to exist in many Wikipedia articles, but "A Coruña" is acceptable. --Blisco 21:51, 30 September 2006 (UTC)
  • Oppose per Palmiro. --Stemonitis 14:05, 1 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Comment the only reason most English speakers outside of Europe have heard of this place is in connection to the Napoleonic wars. So it would be "Corunna" 70.51.10.94 04:04, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Discussion

Add any additional comments.--Asteriontalk 15:31, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

In Aldine University Atlas, London: George Philip & Son, 1969 this town is double listed in the index, as:

  1. La Coruña (Corunna), Spain
  2. Corunna, see La Coruna [sic], Spain

and on the map itself as:

  • La Coruña (Corunna)

with no listing at "A Coruña", blowing the wind out of Husond's unsupported claim above that "the city nearly always appears as "A Coruña" in road maps and atlases". Gene Nygaard 13:44, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

The explanatory material in the front of this atlas, signed by Norton Ginsburg of The University of Chicago, 1969, at the last unnumbered page before map page 1, says as follows. Gene Nygaard 14:23, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
The spelling of Place Names
The spelling of place names also presents difficult problems, especially in foreign areas. In this atlas the principle followed is that, for settlements at least and where the Roman alphabet is used, the indigenous spellings are used, except for a relatively few places which are so well known that the indigenous spelling would be confusing to the reader. For many of the names in this latter group alternative spellings are also given. For example, on pages 114–5, the Italian spelling of a number of major cities is used as the primary spelling, but the common English spelling is added in parentheses, as for Milano (Milan) and Torino (Turin). On maps of smaller scale, such as that of Mediterranean Lands (pages 110–11), only the better known English spellings are employed, a convention widely adopted by cartographers and with many advantages.
Hi Gene, in 1969 only Spanish was official, Galician name was frowned upon to say the least. --Asteriontalk 17:17, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
UK version of Microsoft Autoroute 2004 uses La Coruña (A Coruña). I'll try to get hold of my hard copy of the AA Europe road map later on. Regards, Asteriontalk 17:19, 25 September 2006 (UTC)


Well, there wasn't any internet either in 1969, but it is 2006 now, and Expedia Maps http://www.expedia.com/pub/ gives the following results:

La Coruña

(changed to) La Coruña, Galicia, Spain

Best matches

  • La Coruña, Galicia, Spain
  • La Coruña (second-order administrative division), Galicia, Spain
  • La Coruña (airport), Spain

A Coruña

(changed to) A Coruña [La Coruña], Galicia, Spain

Best matches

  • A Coruña [La Coruña], Galicia, Spain
  • A Coruña (third-order administrative division), La Coruña, Galicia, Spain
  • A Coruña (golf course), La Coruña, Galicia, Spain
  • A Coruña/Estación Marítima (ferry terminal), La Coruña, Galicia, Spain

Map itself (note size difference):

La Coruña
A Coruña

Corunna

several best matches, including most or all of above for either spelling with diacritics (note that there was very little overlap between them), others related to Coruña del Conde in Castille & Leon, an estuary, a railroad station, bus station, marina, as well as Corana in Italy, Coruja in Spain, and Coroana in Romania, and Koruna, Czech Republic likely showing up later in list because included only as similar spellings. Gene Nygaard 17:42, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

I just had a look at my old Inter-railer's and Eurailer's Guide - Independent Traveller's Europe 2001 published by Thomas Cook publishing and they prefer La Coruña. I'll try to get hold of some more books later on. House is a mess... Asteriontalk 18:29, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
Another one: Via Michelin uses "A Coruña (Corunna)". See [11] Asteriontalk 18:31, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Omissions

This discussion has failed to take into account the "La Corunya" and "La Coruna" spellings in English (even "A Corunya" too). I think most of you would be surprised how often they are actually used. Gene Nygaard 12:38, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

The first one is Catalan, not English[12]; The second, is just La Coruña missing the tilde.--Asteriontalk 17:41, 28 September 2006 (UTC)
What's your point?
And "A Coruña" is Galician, not English. And "La Coruña" is Spanish, not English. The only one that is clearly English are Corunna and Coruna. But the Catalan version "La Corunya" is more often used in English than the Galician form "A Coruña".
Furthermore, "La Corunya" is most definitely not necessarily Catalan. In fact, that "ny" is a quite common transliteration of the "enye" into English: witness words such as canyon. Of course, even that "enye" name itself gives you a pretty good clue as to why this happens; in fact, that's basically how this letter with diacritics arose anyway.
Furthermore, La Coruna is a distinct and different spelling, one resulting in different results in entering something the box on Wikipedia and hitting "Go" or "Search", one resulting in different treatment in search engines and largely unpredictable results in the treatment in various searches in many of them, one which results in a different default sorting in Wikipedia categories is no sort key is added, and it is a legitimate and proper spelling. It is every bit as much as deserving of consideration here as any of the other alternatives which have been suggested. Gene Nygaard 02:51, 29 September 2006 (UTC)
Oh, and La Corunha is also used in English. Gene Nygaard 03:00, 29 September 2006 (UTC)
It's not English, it's a mistake. "Corunha" is the Portuguese spelling. "La Corunha" is a strange mix of Portuguese and Spanish. Not valid. --Húsönd 04:13, 29 September 2006 (UTC)
We're talking about English. It's not invalid, no matter what any Galician language police or Spanish language police might say. From what little I know about it, I'd suspect that "La Corunha" comes from Galician speakers anyway, neither Spanish nor Portuguese, probably some trying to get it closer to the old Galician-Portuguese. Note further that Google gives 1,340 hits for the exact phrase "La Corunha" when limited to the Portuguese language, and 132 hits when limited to the English language, and 1,170 hits when limited to the Spanish language. Gene Nygaard 13:25, 29 September 2006 (UTC)
Nygård is wrong.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 81.6.223.137 (talk • contribs).
Sure, if you are talking about spelling my name in English. Because you won't find reliable sources to verify it.
But that isn't valid as a general proposition. Gene Nygaard 13:22, 30 September 2006 (UTC)
I think that you should give me and Asterion some credit on this matter, considering that we're both from the Iberian Peninsula. If I'm telling you that "La Corunha" is a mistake, then you can be rest assured that it is, regardless of the language or Google hits. Furthermore, I shall remind you that I'm a native English speaker and I know well what is English and what is not.--Húsönd 17:02, 29 September 2006 (UTC)
O Great and Holy One, forgive me for not being mindful of being in the presence of a god!
But you are raising both facts not in evidence (I didn't know where either of you are from, nor your native languages, and I don't really care all that much), and facts not admissible on relevance grounds. If you want to claim it is a mistake, verify it. That it exists and is used is already quite evident.
I'd suspect that the Iberian peninsula has its fair share of village idiots, as does any other place. Living there doesn't automatically grant the inhabitants credibility on every issue remotely connected to the location. Everyone has their strengths and weaknesses, and there place of residence doesn't grant them any special intelligence nor grant them any immunity from being mistaken.
Don't take me wrong; I'm not saying that you're the one for your village, of course. But I'm sure that you've also run into many cases on Wikipedia of people making mistakes when writing about their "home town" or the surrounding area.
You certainly aren't alone as a native English speaker having difficulty understanding the niceties of language, either. Thanks for helping me to think of that observation.
Maybe you ought to read up on argumentum ad verecundiam and some of the other logical fallacies. Gene Nygaard 13:17, 30 September 2006 (UTC)
You were probably already familiar with the fallacy in my "god" or "village idiot" references above. Just wanted to make you aware of the flip side of the coin in the argumenum ad verecundiam. Gene Nygaard 13:29, 30 September 2006 (UTC)
Sorry Gene, this time I had to remind you to be civil on your talk page.--Húsönd 16:00, 30 September 2006 (UTC)
Pointing out the preposterousness of your infallibility claims ("If I'm telling you that "La Corunha" is a mistake, then you can be rest assured that it is") is not being uncivil. Gene Nygaard 00:54, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

<Back to margin>
Of course, "La Corunha" was only an afterthought in any case, not one of the serious omissions beging discussed in this section. I don't really care if you classify "La Corunha" as an error—even though it does have over 1,000 hits each in both Spanish and Portuguese, and that has been borrowed in a few English language pages. For the sake of this argument, let's just assume that it is a mistake, and get back on track.

The important ones are La Coruna and La Corunya, with hundreds or thousands of times as many hits.

Google hits English
Spain "La Coruna" -wikipedia -Coruña -site:en.wikipedia.org 3,360,000 915,000
Spain "La Coruña" -wikipedia -Coruna -site:en.wikipedia.org 4,620,000 282,000
Spain "La Coruna" -wikipedia -site:en.wikipedia.org 5,640,000 1,640,000
AltaVista hits English & Spanish
Spain "La Coruna" -Coruña 888,000 854,000
Spain "La Coruña" -Coruna 0 0
Spain "La Coruna" 1,410,000 1,360,000
NOTE: The middle one shows that AltaVista uses
different sorting algorithms from those used by Google

Gene Nygaard 13:17, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

Gene, your results are not completely accurate. Not only the figures, as shown below, but you fail completely to understand the way Google works for discrimating languages and determining whether a page is in English or not, that is using metatags such as <META HTTP-EQUIV="Content-Language" CONTENT="EN">. The problem is that unless the webmaster does alter the preferences on their software, it will default to Spanish or whichever other language they use generally, therefore making it something like <META HTTP-EQUIV="Content-Language" CONTENT="ES">. As an example, every single one of the results for Spain "La Coruña" -wikipedia -Coruna -site:en.wikipedia.org -deportivo without even using the setting "English language only" in the first six pages is in English, which basically proves my point. So, it seems that, at the end of the day, La Coruña is indeed the most widespread name in English language. Personally, I would still prefer Corunna for historical reasons but I think we needed to put the record straight after your comments above. Regards, Asteriontalk 15:40, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

No, it doesn't show that "La Coruna is indeed the most widespread name in the English language." It doesn't even attempt to do so, it is only looking at two of the possibilities.
You are right that limitations by language aren't very reliable at all. I've often pointed that out myself.
Taken as a whole, the Google and AltaVista results are pretty good evidence that "La Coruna" is more common in English than "La Coruña" is.
You don't disprove that by looking at six pages (of how many hits; that's user specifiable, of course) out of four million, six hundred twenty thousand hits (or even out of two hundred eighty-two thousand hits, if thats the one you used), especially when you are looking at them in the search in which the spelling "Coruña" is likely to be weighted (see weight function) more heavily in the results than the spelling "Coruna" is, so that the Coruña spelling is predictably more likely to occur in the first six pages. Gene Nygaard 01:09, 1 October 2006 (UTC)
As weighted results, you should know these are the most popular, most linked to, pages. Therefore La Coruña is more widespread than La Coruna in English. I am not sure whether you would be able to overcome your hate for diacritics and accept this. Best regards, Asteriontalk 14:10, 1 October 2006 (UTC)
Totally wrong. Note that "popularity" and "linked to" are different things, and even taken together they are a small part of the weighting process used by search engines. Putting a minus sign in front of a word is another part of it; in logical search engines, that means the results do not include any articles with that word, but obviously (to anybody familiar with set theory, at least) Google does things differently. Other weighting factors used by Google include more weight to the spelling actually used to the search than to alternative spellings or synonyms, and changing effects based somehow on the number of search terms. Like search engine tells us, "Google and most other web engines utilize not only PageRank but more than 150 criteria to determine relevancy." Then, just set your hits to display to 100 and look at the flip side of the coin from the one you looked at, the first page of hits for the Spain "La Coruna" -wikipedia -Coruña -site:en.wikipedia.org search [13] Gene Nygaard 00:26, 4 October 2006 (UTC)
Google hits English
Spain "La Coruna" -wikipedia -Coruña -site:en.wikipedia.org -deportivo 1,750,000[14] 744,000 [15]
Spain "La Coruña" -wikipedia -Coruna -site:en.wikipedia.org -deportivo 3,100,000[16] 214,000[17]
Spain "La Coruna" -wikipedia -site:en.wikipedia.org -deportivo 9,010,000* [18] 1,110,000* [19]

* (flawed results, as google also includes ñ as n)

If Google always "includes ñ as n", then the middle one would be zero, as it is in AltaVista. In actual fact, if you both include and exclude a word that differs only in a diacritic letter, then Google changes its algorithms. Gene Nygaard 00:55, 4 October 2006 (UTC)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

[edit] Francoist spelling?

Quote: The city has a football club in Spain's top division, Deportivo de La Coruña (note that the club name still uses the Francoist spelling). In La Coruña we use to talk in Spanish. Adalbertofrenesi 18:21, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for pointing this out. There's no need for that sort of comment. I got rid of the POV text.Asteriontalk 18:30, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] La Coruña vs A Coruña

A typically stupid Spanish argument. The simple fact of the matter is that the name La Coruña is the Castillian Spanish name for the city. A Coruña is in the Galician language.

The sign with the city name on it as you enter says, La Coruña, although someone has spraypainted over the letter L. I know because I see it every day.

Certain members within the Galician National Party (BNG) insist that the name be A Coruña, as opposed to a large percentage of members within the Spanish Nationalist Party (PP) who insist that it is La Coruña. It is a politacal argument that has been going on for 25 years, when it is simply the name of a city in 2 different languages. Much the same as London vs Londres.

I really hope we are not going to start seeing petty Spanish political arguments thrashed out here.

All 3 names are valid as all have been used at variuos times in history. And obviously 2 are stll being squabbled over.

sincerely

Anonymous Anthropologist —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 212.166.253.244 (talk) 17:32, 2 February 2007 (UTC).


All of this could be avoided if the spanish (and the galicians, in imitation) didn't insist in considering the article as part of the name. The spanish go as far as writing nowadays officially 'de/en/con/a/para A Coruña', which is unidiomatic, as they should use their own article; in galician, those are, of course, 'da/na/coa/à/prá Coruña', as all those prepositions contract with the article (though coa/prá are mostly colloquial, the others are mandatory).

In galician, anyway, the traditional name was 'Crunha' (with -nh-, like portuguese, for current -ñ-, as traditional usage didn't have a graphical standard), without an 'o'. I even suspect the 'o' is a literary development, to avoid a cluster felt as low class. The etymology may or may not be 'columna'; nowadays, I'm convinced it's pre-Roman.

As to what name should be used, it's quite simple. Either use a traditional english name, or the current official name - it's what wikipedia does EVERYWHERE. And currently the only official name is the galician one, as is only fair since we're talking about GALICIA. The usage of the spanish name here would actually be vexing since the spanish name isn't any different from the galician original, except in the most obvious phonological developments which separate spanish from galician/portuguese; as a result, using the spanish name in any other language than spanish sort of like gives a spanish identity to the city which erases the native galician. Which is far from being a considerate approach.

On a related note, to consider 'galician nationalism' on equal footing with 'spanish nationalism' is perverse - the former is about fighting for the survival of galician culture in its own territory, the latter is about imposing spanish culture in places where it isn't native. It's ridiculous that the desire that wikipedia uses the galician name for a galician city, of which is it the only official name, a name which moreover is nearly the same as the spanish one and poses no problem to searches, should be considered 'galician nationalism'. 85.241.113.244 (talk) 19:12, 14 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Change in Infobox

I changed the names in the infobox. A Coruña was as the Spanish name, and La Coruña as the Galician name. --Fryant 02:07, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Non exact data

There are several uncorrect data in the article, which I would like someone to correct:

1st. It is not true that A Coruña is the most important city in NW Spain or Galicia. Vigo has more inhabitants and is the industrial centre and main port (no A Coruña), and Santiago de Compostela is the political capital. A Coruña is the financial and economical centre of Galicia, where the leading banks and companies have their headquarters (Caixa Galicia, Banco Pastor, Zara, Martinsa-Fadesa). Its port is just the first regarding petrol and coal, no regarding fish, neither containers. The information given regarding population neither is true. A Coruña and Vigo develop their population more or less at the same pace.

2nd. Regarding the polemica on the name of the city. The Galician form is the unique name of the city both in Galician and Spanish, as even Spanish Supreme Court (Tribunal Supremo) supports. [20] and, especially, the TS sentence: [21]

Regarding the use of the names, in Galician A Coruña is the only name used, in Spanish both A Coruña and La Coruña are used (even Coruña, without article, is used, too). In the area of A Coruña and in Galicia, A Coruña is the most (almost the unique) form used, even among Spanish-speakers (A majority in Coruña speaks Spanish, although it is still the municipality with the larger number of Galician speakers, some 100,000 or 125,000), so the statement "The Spanish form is more used" is FALSE.

3rd, the subdivision of the city in "districts" has varied, now there are only two, but, as this is a non very used (neither very useful) subdivision, I do not remember their names.

4th and last: You can found evidence of the use of "The Groyne" in D.Defoe's Robinson Crusoe. (After they go out of the island, they come to Europe and arrive in Spain, where Robinson decides not to embark in The Groyne and go through the Pyrenees instead. [in my edition, Penguin 2001, p.227]). I've read that it was usual that sailors named foreign cities with names of parts of the body, but I have no citacions to back me.

Thankyou! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.51.52.8 (talk) 19:43, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Hello

Is anybody active on this page? I was just wondering if there was anybody thinking of improving it. The article seems to have been written by a non-native english speaker and has a terrible amount of typos and badly written sentences (no offense to the original writer). I've done my best to correct any mistakes but there are quite a few instances where its not actually clear what's wanted to be said, or the mistakes are so bad that whole paragraphs would have to be changed. The whole history section is also badly titled. There seems to be confusion over terminology. You can't title a section as 'Middle Ages' and then mostly talk about premiddle ages, as in, before at least 1200 AD. The 'Modern Age' section, a period of time which is from the 18th century up to now, is filled with dates in the middle ages. The whole article needs a gramatical tidy up and then probably an expansion and improvement in general. I'm guessing the original writer is Spanish, and English as a language is not their mother tongue. I don't want to be mean in what I've written above but to be honest if your going to write an article on the English Wiki you should atleast have gotten help from a native English speaker. The article needs a lot of work, so I was just wondering if there's anybody with more then a passing interest in La/A Coruña that would want to collaborate and improve the page. Ru (talk) 04:16, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

I'm responsible for the badly-titled History section, my apologies. I just titled it à la Spanish, forgetting about cultural contrast. Regarding badly used English, I am Galician, I have Galician language as my mother tongue, and I apologise again if I actually made any linguistic mistake in the History section. In fact, it was worse earlier, and I tried and corrected what I could. In relation with the linguistic issue, English is not my mother tongue, though I feel I am competent enough to write on the English Wiki, my opinion about this is that natives of a place/city/country should write and give the most info about what they know, and, should it appear any linguistic mistakes, there would always be plenty of native speakers to mend it, don't you think? However, my knowledge of A Coruña is limited, as I am not exactly from there, so, I am not the person you are looking for. However, I can tag as incorrect any false data, as I did above. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.51.52.5 (talk) 18:59, 9 June 2008 (UTC)