User talk:86.10.231.219

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Attention: The Original Invisible Anon's Talk Page

This IP address, 86.10.231.219, is used by unregistered user The Invisible Anon. Comments left on this page will be received by The Invisible Anon. Caution should be used when blocking this IP or reverting its contributions without checking.

Other unregisted editors should note that this need not necessarily be the IP address of your computers. If you are frustrated by irrelevant comments appearing here, you can avoid them by creating an account for yourself.

This is once again the talk page of User:The Invisible Anon. User:Midgley was unmasked as having registered himself as User:The Invisible Anon and editing as if me using User:The Invisible Anon and Wikistalking me. He was following me around and adding edits as "The Invisible Anon". He also engaged in harrassment by applying to delete this my talk page under AfD and under a simultaneous MfD. Interestingly, he was not blocked for this behaviour despite numerous other transgressions before and since. The Original Invisible Anon at 86.10.231.219 15:30, 27 February 2006 (UTC) - updated by The Invisible Anon 14:05, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

This is substantially untrue. 86.10.231.219 irritated me so much that I registered the name he was pretending to, and then pointed it out. (Thus at that point, he was impersonating me!) If you read down here, you'll see that deleting this page would not have been a bad idea. Midgley 01:29, 21 April 2006 (UTC) & 21:09 2nd May 2006

To make your own mind up re: immediately foregoing see [[1]], [[2]] and [[3]] - The Invisible Anon 08:23, 21 April 2006 (UTC)

Welcome!

Contents

[edit] Time & Tide

Thanks for the note. Will be waiting. The Invisible Anon 16:48, 31 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Notes

[citation needed] - Talk - The Original Invisible Anon at 86.10.231.219 16:48, 31 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Please watch Talk:Autism

Finally a little on a talk page, eh? Please see what others might say to the question of diet and Autism there. The diet and autism section is weak in the article. By the way, why not just establish a presence with a logon? You could edit from other locations and when your IP address changes some time in the future you wouldn't lose your ability to track contributions ans such. Also you could elect to get eMail. That feature is nice, and Wikipedia won't reveal your eMail address. Kd4ttc 23:24, 1 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Sorry

My apology. The note on the User page appears to have been made by someone other than yourself. Kd4ttc 23:28, 1 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Comment removed from User page

An anonymous fringe editor publishing rubbish. (unsigned comment by User:Midgley removed from User page) 21:04, 1 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Votes of Anons Do Count

Votes of anons do count. Need strong evidence of bad faith not to count them. See [Rough Consensus] ".... administrators can disregard opinions and comments if ... strong evidence ... not made in good faith ... "bad faith" opinions include those made by sock puppets, being made anonymously, or being made using a new userid whose only edits are to the article in question and the voting on that article." Check edit history for evidence of good faith and do not presume bad faith. The Invisible Anon 12:28, 3 February 2006 (UTC)

I'm sorry if I am presuming to instruct an Englishman on English, but that page as referred to, and the text as quoted above are not easily construed in that fashion.
"..."bad faith" opinions include those ... being made anonymously..." is by far the most obvious way to read that composite sentence. I believe the same applies in the American version.
To test that, you could ask, or you could look for an example - a precedent or a common occurrence, of anonymous votes being counted.
I'm pleased to see this user now has a user page. Midgley 13:24, 3 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Woolf pack?

It would be much appreciated if you could remove your list of 'Woolf pack' members from your user page. I am not a puppet (sock- or meat-) of User:Jfdwolff, and I do not take direction from that editor or any of the editors on your list. I suspect that the other editors you have listed feel the same way.

It is also inappropriate to describe another good-faith editor as a 'medical graffiti expert', and you would be well-advised to remove that characterization. Making personal attacks on other editors is never an acceptable practice on Wikipedia.

To make communication with you easier and more reliable, I would strongly recommend registering a username. It's free, requires no personally-identifying information, and would allow you to have your own user space, rather than the anonymous space attacked to a random NTL IP address. Your preferred name, 'The Invisible Anon', is even still available. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 18:51, 3 February 2006 (UTC)

Thank you for your comments and I am taking careful note of what you say.
The 'medical graffitti expert' is a joke. It is quite a funny one. Let me explain. The user page was completely blank. Like a blank wall in the street. It had nothing on it. Then, suddenly, someone writes on it - just like a graffitti artist. And he wrote "An anonymous fringe editor publishing rubbish." See for yourself - here is the evidence [[4]].
I know Adrian Midgely enjoys a joke and this one is quite apt in all the circumstances. This is not a personal attack and I find it hard to characterise it as such. However, I will be happy to consider your view further on the point. Perhaps you might also let me have your views on these questions: was it the action of a good faith editor for Adrian to do that? Isn't that an attack on another editor and on his user page no less? Haven't I dealt with it in a light-hearted manner and not taken offence? But, shouldn't I be the injured party?
Regarding the user pages listed on my user page, if there is a Wiki policy I can turn to to see if there is anything and what it might be that is objectionable, if at all, that would be helpful. So it is important to know to what is being objected to. Do you not agree that time and again the same names appear to crop up on the same pages? A number of the users listed on my user page, for example all appear on the RfD page [[5]].
It is the same people every time. I can see that some of them co-ordinate with each other over these matters and there is evidence to show that. These are not all people acting in isolation but in co-operation and I keep seeing the same names over and over.
As for logging in, I have given that consideration. No other user is using this IP address to edit on Wikipedia. If one does, then I will consider the suggestion further. Until that time, if it were ever to occur and I doubt it very much, I am the one disadvantaged by not having registered on the system. I could ensure my messages are signed with pgp signature.
This is an example above. I have deleted the signature with this edit but the diff will always show the original message and signature.
I am certainly willing to consider modifying the text of the user page to take account of your concerns and any Wikipedia policy that is relevant. Do you object, for example, to just being listed as an editor who edits or comments on pages as I edit or comment on? The Invisible Anon 22:46, 3 February 2006 (UTC)


[edit] Anti-vaccinationists, discussions etc

Hmmm - there is a user & talk page as you said - I thought anons did not have - one learns something new every day :-). That said, unless you have a fixed internet link and stable URL number, the question arises is '86.10.231.219' always you ? If it is stable and only usable by you then why not register, if only to show to others that all contributions are from one person and allow people to engage in discussion, rather than perhaps it reflecting many people via an ISP sharing the same URL who might each hold opposing views and so make discussion difficult. I'm happy to accept that many desire or required to be "anonymous", so names without any reference to gender, religion, geographical location or political observation is admirable and indeed most WP usernames are effectively anonymous handles. Anyway, enough digressing and on with the discussion: Thank you for your courteous comments on my talk-page. Don't worry about your entry's length, although I think my talk page is getting overlong and in need of archiving. P.S. this entry seems even longer than yours:-)

I agree several other editors had failed to revert the deleted text, but you'll understand I was quite incensed at seeing the deletion (especially as it had taken me a couple of goes to post my vote, what with my computer crashing a couple of times - not you fault of course !)

The real problem for articles debating epidemiology/risks to complex issues is that the discussion must be held about complex research and data interpretation, which is probably at too deep a level for a general encyclopaedia such as wikipedia. I agree one can't just say "a minority disagree that X is safe for reasons that the majority reject", but getting too deep into a debate makes articles almost unreadable to the general casual reader. Heck, even I find the articles terse and a struggle to get through, but I have no magic solution to offer as to where to draw the line. There should be a role for external references to provide the greater detail, but articles can't be just bland one-line dictionary definitions with a huge numbers of references; they need to include some structure as to the outlines of the issues to give meaning and relevance to the deeper information to be found from a few selected references. Consensus on such articles will come I suspect less from agreeing the merit of specific arguments, but on NPOV summarising (vs. fully defending each POV) with then a few choice references outside and away from wikipedia. This then allows the reader to extend their understanding in either direction, and whilst the article wont be a "complete" discourse, it should be acceptable as an encyclopaedic entry.

You eloquently set out the (dare I say it) acceptable concerns that might be raised about any treatment, namely what is the potential harm if a treatment is not used, how effective is that treatment and what are the adverse effects of so using the treatment. You are quite right that good research (leaving aside what this precisely is, and where anecdotal reports fit into evidence gathering), should in time help quantify the statistics. This should be agreeable by all, although quite how appropriate to put every last detail into wikipedia that is meant to be a general encyclopaedia rather than a research paper is debatable - that is the point of having references (I happy for a risk to be written in WP as 'about half' rather than a technically precise but emotionally empty '48.15%'). However I disagree with you that such agreed statistics would end debate or disagreement (I wish that it could/would):

  • Risk-benefit analysis is not only quantitative but also qualitative; being subjective in as much that each risk/benefit percentage must then be weighed by an importance-factor. Hence the effort in having to look both ways before crossing the road affects 100% of people, against being hit which is a smaller percentage. Yet the "statistics" do not result in us all crossing the road without taking care - clearly the cost of the 'effort' in checking is minimal although affecting everyone, yet the cost of being hit is huge. This makes discussion of a treatment's 'worth' harder than just a balance of percentages, there is scope here for genuine disagreement, for there is no intrinsic absolute truth in value judgements - I give below an example:
    • A young child (say 7 who is old enough to have some discussion with but too young to take absolute responsibility for their decisions) might refuse having a blood test due to needle phobia, irrespective of the possible benefit in their overall care (despite best efforts of doctors & parents to try to explain at their level of understanding) . A parent then 'forcing' their child to have a blood test, is certainly going to immediately feel some guilt for upsetting that child.
    • The statistical likelihood of the blood test helping to make a difference to the diagnosis, disease assessment, treatment options and eventual outcome can be debated - some of this may be hard statistical evidence, some is open to discussion or even great uncertainty (a blood test for an infection may allow correct treatment and life-saving cure, a test that confirms a cancer that after assessment proves incurable will, in retrospect, not have helped that child). Perhaps a more useful discriminator would have been some additional fact from the patient's history rather than resorting to a blood test.
    • So it is difficult to absolutely quantify the possible benefit of getting the test done against the blatantly obvious existence of emotional trauma involved in getting any blood taken.
    • Indeed in this respect medicine might be seen as partly an art in the application of science - I'm sure most doctors sometimes defer non-immediately-critical investigations/treatments they know from experience are likely to be for the best, for just such reasons (until perhaps circumstances change and greater weight applies to a particular course of action/inaction).
  • Next is the issue of data presentation and weight. I've seen media articles about some life-threatening adverse effect of a treatment stating that doctors claim it is safe yet (shock horror) that they admit to a third of patients experiencing side effects. Of course this sort of statement is (deliberately) misleading, as side-effects will include not only the exceptionally rare life-threatening events mentioned, but also the many time more common side-effects that are mild, transitory and with no long-term consequences. Whilst not dismissing the potential for serious reactions and the need to spot early, this type of statement tries to imply that a third of patients will have the life-threatening consequences. In case you were wondering I've seen such articles relating to antibiotics (perhaps 33% experiencing mild stomach or bowel upset \ anaphylactic allergic reactions a tiny risk \ in appropriate circumstances treatment life-saving) and some anti-malarials (many cause taste disturbance or poor sleeping \ psychiatric disturbance is rare \ getting malaria can kill).

So, with good reason, the idea that the 'facts will out' and everyone will come to a consensus is both probably impossible and will be argued over with bias.

I think in part the problem with contentious articles is that the aim of wikipedia is somewhat vague; in that it can try to be all things:

  1. At a very basic level is simple dictionary definition of terms e.g. "Flat-earth: the belief the world is flat and not a sphere" or "Vaccines: analogues of an illness that by injection into a person stimulate the immune system with the aim of conferring protection against the full infection". I hope both are NPOV even though flat-earth is rejected by most, vaccines accepted by most.
  2. The next level up is a definition at the level of a young teenager's encyclopaedia. This might describe slightly more fully: perhaps difference of virus and bacteria, of using just a part of the micro-organism in a vaccine, of having some soreness at site of injection, and then a hint of the issues that whilst recommended by most, some question how useful they are.
  3. However by the time one reaches a school leavers text book one should be discussing: levels of vaccine effectiveness, herd immunity and benefit this gives to those not yet vaccinated or failing to respond to a vaccine themselves vs. reduced likelihood of personal benefit.
  4. WP is though usually above this and generally seems to have articles that expand in their latter sections to under-graduate levels.
  5. The level of "ferocity" in some of WP's controversial articles seems more like that of the esoteric debates at post-graduate/research levels.

Now aside form the merits of any aspect within a debate about a topic, it is clear that the amount of information and thus presentation of mankind’s understanding (and thus shade of Points of View) builds up with the increasing target-level of the article. I think everyone could agree to NPOV at level 1 above, and within each side of the debate there is likely to be some POV disagreements at the stage of level 5. The question is the approach at the level of 3-4 of both maintaining overall article NPOV and the style of discussing each POV. I'm sure its just about possible, but 'about' is unlikely to be perfectly so.

As the complexity increases with each audience target level, so the amount and care with qualifying language needs to increase. Indeed at the deepest level of considering any facet of a topic is nearly always "this is the level of current understanding". Reaching this stage is likely to be inappropriate within wikipedia, or fall foul of original research rules.

All this I guess is a long way of considering how much info we want on vaccination, the arguments either for or against (either on specific issues, or conventional acceptance vs. alternative outright rejection) and the movements that hold these views. I don't know quite where I would place my own cut-off point, but would discussion about the "process of encyclopaedia compiling complex articles", rather than purely focusing on the details of the contents of an individual article, allow an acceptable article to be formed (vs. each side viewing an article as imperfect). I would suggest that abortion forms a good analogue - current article contains a dictionary definition of what it is & its history section (NPOV even if one disagrees with abortion), followed by the debate of the arguments against & the counter-arguments (the opposing POVs). The article neither suggest that abortion is a good thing (even pro-choicers would much prefer that a women never finds herself in a situation with an unwanted pregnancy), nor that all accept it is morally acceptable or unacceptable. Both pro-choice and pro-life viewpoints probably see the article as biased against their POV, but I think the article is a good encyclopaedic entry.

I do think that the anti-vacinationists article is in need of POV/NPOV consensus, but even more importantly consensus on what level to pitch debated medical topics, but I don't think that warrants Afd. I'll look forward to catching up with discussions after my wikibreak with a real-life week's holiday. David Ruben Talk 05:02, 4 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Please see comments on my talk page

Please see comments at User_talk:Kd4ttc#Rfd_Anti-Vaccinationists Kd4ttc 17:36, 5 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] RFC

RFC found here not originating with me. - JustinWick 22:45, 6 February 2006 (UTC)

a block paragraph is done with hard line breaks
and a single space before each line
otherwise they run and run and run and run and run off the side of the page and it's really annoying to read...  your comments on RfC have this error, please amend (preview is your friend).
- JustinWick 23:53, 6 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Ubernosy question

Just out of curiousity, why edit anonymously if you feel strongly about your edits? It has been my experience that editors often take anon edits less seriously... also login names do not appear to be easy to trace back to real world individuals (except in my case, where I just used my name, time will tell if that was a good decision). Cheers, - JustinWick 02:17, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

I still wonder that, as well. Why? Your explanation, if you please - best here. Midgley 09:51, 8 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Allopath

The problem with using the term allopath to describe a practitioner of conventional medicine is that it carries some ugly baggage. Allopath is defined simply as 'on who practices allopathy', a term for which you have already provided a definition. It was invented by Hahnemann as a deliberate caricature of his preferred homeopathy, and it was (and is) used as a pejorative term.

To an extent, the term has been co-opted or subverted (if you will) by mainstream medicine, and some organizations now consider 'allopathic medicine' a synonym of 'conventional' or 'Western' medicine. Note that the preferred formulation–if you must use it–is 'practitioner of allopathic medicine', and not 'allopath'. An allopath is one who follows Hahnemann's caricature, a practitioner of allopathic medicine is actually practicing conventional medicine.

In the context of vaccination debates, describing vaccination as 'allopathy' has a particular potential to confuse—vaccination is based on exposing patients to compounds and organisms very similar to those which cause disease.

From the standpoint of writing an encyclopedia article, the meanings of 'conventional' or 'Western' are understood by a much larger audience than 'allopathic'. There's no need to use a more obscure term when it is no more precise and when it is seen as loaded. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 14:53, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

Thank you. You are kind to take the trouble to explain this. I have also been looking at the definition of the term following the comments of others. The Invisible Anon 15:00, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Midgley

Please stop using the page User:86.10.231.219 as a platform to attack User:Midgley or to impugn the motives and good faith of other editors. If you would like to discuss the appropriateness of edits–addition or removal of material, name and location of articles–do so on the article talk pages. If you feel that more eyes are needed in an article dispute, the Request for Comment process is thataway.

Further testing the bounds and enforcement of our civility and personal attack policies is Not Done, all right? TenOfAllTrades(talk) 20:40, 9 February 2006 (UTC)

This comment is inappropriate especially from an Admin. You have chosen to closely associate yourself with User:Midgley's behaviour and you have a personal involvement. Here is some more evidence of User:Midgley's behaviour [[6]].
As a direct result of your involvement the user page was deleted on a demonstrably false complaint which you initiated and followed up for User:Midgley as is recorded here [[7]].
The information on the User page set out links to specific pages where User:Midgley's behaviour could be seen.
  • this kind of information served a useful purpose in protecting me from his and others attacks. If as a result of any such attacks anyone came to the user page they could see what he was up to and make their own minds up.
  • further, it's presence had a noticeable effect in reducing the poor behaviour of User:Midgley and some others.
  • in doing so it served to reduce the need to rely on dispute resolution or to involve the time of others in sorting out the kinds of things User:Midgley and his close associates have been doing on Wikipedia.
Here is an example of the benefits of this approach to making poor behaviour visible. Since this [[8]] information has been posted this [[9]] and this [[10]] is the first time in a long time that you have done anything about a long line of inappropriate behaviour by User:Midgley yet your remark here (my emphasis) [[11]]
"I'd strongly recommend avoiding edits like this to the talk page of an editor with whom you have an dispute. I don't disagree with your assessment, but there's no need to tweak him."
shows you choose still to demonstrate partiality for User:Midgley notwithstanding the behaviour shown above (and there is more elsewhere).
This personal association with the offensive "trolling" attack [[12]] is inappropriate and inflammatory. The necessity for setting out and documenting carefully what is going on is not "trolling" but something essential in the light of these kinds of attacks by you, User:Midgley and his close associates.
If you want to demonstrate good faith I suggest you start by being instrumental in getting the User page reinstated.
The Invisible Anon 06:17, 14 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Conduct

Two other editors have seconded my concerns regarding your conduct at the RfC for Talk:Anecdotal evidence. Having read your recent user history, my concerns have broadened. I am not a contributor to the pages or subjects where you are active so please take this as the advice of a neutral observer. We all feel strongly about some issues. This does not necessarily mean that those who disagree have violated any policy. And if some do, there are many ways to resolve the matter constructively. I say this because it looks like your own user conduct may merit an RfC. I'd rather not see that happen. Durova 22:11, 9 February 2006 (UTC)

Comment left at Durova's talk page 00:04, 10 February 2006 (UTC):-

Thank you Durova for your comments here [[13]].
How can I help? What do you consider of concern about Talk:Anecdotal evidence. It seems to me the content points you raised at Talk:Anecdotal evidence were answered in an appropriate manner. What did you find gave you concerns at Talk:Anecdotal evidence." Some specifics would be helpful.
Kd4ttc has personal involvement on a number of levels. What did the two editors who second your views think? I assume he is not one?
Your personal involvement includes a differing opinion of and defence of the behaviour noted here [[14]] of the anon editor using 4 different IP addresses to make comments worthy of a raised eyebrow.
The relevance of Kd4ttc's comment being "ganged up on by physicians with a narrow POV" defeats me I have to confess as I do not see anyone at Talk:Anecdotal evidence suggesting anyone is being "ganged up on". Is that what you think?

The Invisible Anon 00:07, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

You also posted to my user page and I replied there yesterday. Your reaction at Talk:Anecdotal evidence was not encouraging. RfC is a tool to help resolve a specific disagreement. If you really think the article deserves praise for excellence, then the place to seek feedback is Wikipedia:Peer review. I don't think this article is ready for peer review, but you have the right to try it. Durova 17:04, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

Still no response regarding alleged concerns re Talk:Anecdotal evidence. The only one so far is "[filibuster]ing" [[15]] which is clearly inapplicable as can be seen from what is necessarily a clear direct and plain reply to ensure there is no confusion [[16]] The Invisible Anon 19:58, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Follow-up

In the spirit of Wikipedia:Assume good faith I'd like to repeat my suggestion that you join the mentorship program. You seem like an intelligent and active person. You also seem like someone who hasn't yet gained a solid foundation in Wikipedia's formats, guidelines, and policies. This is leading to problems. Wikipedia is a flexible place, but it requires some flexibility in return. Durova 01:58, 13 February 2006 (UTC)

Thank you for your comments.
What are the problems to which you refer? I asked that question twice before and it was not answered then.
In the light of the following, you may want to consider who is in greater need of mentoring.
I also agree, Wikipedia is a flexible place - so flexible that "formats, guidelines, and policies" are clearly unimportant as:-
  • a user page was deleted on a demonstrably false complaint [[17]]
  • the Admin deleted when it did not qualify for deletion according to any policies
  • he just zapped it - no formalities - no policy or guideline followed
  • and notwithstanding no aspect of page protection policies apply, the page is now also protected.
So, on whose part should good faith be assumed? From the above example, it seems "good faith" is in shorter supply than people would have us believe.
Also, the comment you prefix your remarks with "in the spirit of Wikipedia:Assume good faith" implies you do not think I am acting in good faith because if you thought I was acting in good faith you would not even think of mentioning it.
Please also see a selection of a few of the examples of abuse and harrassment I have been getting from this user (who crops up with the same editors all the time):-
  • "You idiot" [[18]]
  • "An anonymous fringe editor publishing rubbish." [[19]]
  • Here I am accused of dishonesty [[20]] ("... spread your own untrue version of events").
  • "Bollux" appears in an edit summary about my edits. [[21]]
  • It is also said in the text "I think teh good faith of this anonymous editor .... is not something one should assume" same edit as above [[22]]
  • Another editor is attacked - "hissy fit" & lengthy ad hominem [[23]]
  • Another editor attacked "THis is quite clearly his usual behaviour, and is disruptive and dishonest." [[24]]
  • Another editor is attacked - "Paranoid ranting isn't it? (in an entirely lay/general sense of the meaning)" [[25]]
  • Here he calls author of peer reviewed medical paper a "conspiracy theorist and psychotic" [[26]]
  • Here he discloses the private identity of another editor who asked not to be identified [[27]]
Regarding the "ganged up" remark made first by Steve Kd4ttc here [[28]] and which you repeated, here is a comment by a completely independent editor [[29]] which is in very strong but civil terms. Do you not seem able to share that perspective?
You seem to have no problem accepting Steve [[Kd4ttc]]'s good faith. I have reasons to be cautious on that score. Here is a gratuitous and unnecessary remark in circumstances where it might be seen to be inflammatory [[30]] :and here is Steve ridiculing me another time [[31]] although perhaps he has not quite recovered from coming off worst as a result of his own provocative remarks.
Here is another encounter with Steve [[32]]
Here is a further encounter with Steve [[33]]
Now User:Tearlach's good faith - after my patience was tried to extremes on talk:anecdotal evidence here he is on the Admin's Noticeboard cherry-picking [[34]] and the filibustering allegation I had previously demonstrated more than once was unfounded but it appears on the Admin's Notice board? Hmmm.
Here is a good example [[35]] of my sticking to the issues and being polite but getting repeatedly personal remarks in return from Admin JFW | T@lk
I look forward to hearing from you.
The Invisible Anon 04:06, 13 February 2006 (UTC)
In response to the comment (here quoted in full from above) .....
  • "Here he calls author of peer reviewed medical paper a "conspiracy theorist and psychotic" [[36]]
.... the following comment added by Midgley at 00:14, on 14 February 2006 (UTC) (diff [[37]])
That is untrue, although it is repeated from a talk page. To suggest that giving a reference means that the author of the referred paper has personally the quality their paper discusses is so bizarre that it is hard to believe anyone who inhabits WP and sees references given in support of statements actually believes it themselves. Midgley 00:14, 14 February 2006 (UTC)
The Invisible Anon 04:56, 14 February 2006 (UTC)


What I intended above when I mentioned Wikipedia:Assume good faith is that I'm assuming good faith in posting to your user talk page. You've got some things to contribute to Wikipedia but you've been on a path that leads to conflict. I'd like to see more good things and less conflict. I'm flattered that you posted such a detailed response. It would be a good list to show to a mentor. I don't have time to assume that role.

You asked for specific examples of what problems caught my eye. These are a few:

  • It would help if you removed the warnings you posted to Wikipedia's RfC page and to the RfC discussion at Anecdotal evidence.
  • The formatting of the anecdotal evidence article doesn't conform to Wikipedia standards. Lengthy quotes should be indented, not boxed. Add Wikilinks to relevant articles in the body of the text. Move external links to the end of the page and place them in single set brackets.
  • Other editors commented on the content of that article. The most important points, to me, are WP:NOR and WP:NPOV. If you think there's a lack of consensus about the meaning of the term "anecdotal evidence," then locate a reputable source that states so and quote that source.

I hope this points at the right direction. This is about as much follow-up as I have time for. Best wishes, Durova 07:11, 13 February 2006 (UTC)

I took time responding to your invitation [[38]] to see what the reply is. "... you've been on a path that leads to conflict."
I provide a raft of evidence, showing editors at work hard at ensuring the balance and factual information I present is prevented, even down to making plainly false complaints as I have shown [[39]]. But your response is to ignore all of that and the other evidence above. And when eventually you set out what you say you feel are "problems" (after three times of my asking you to say what they are) they turn out to be pretty trivial compared to the serious problems I have documented by evidence above, including evidence of a "POV war" from an independent editor [[40]].
Presuming or assuming good faith holds good until the evidence exists to show that such an assumption is misplaced. You have chosen to intervene in unusual circumstances. When I present just a small amount of overwhelming evidence, you choose to ignore it. Anyone so concerned for another's benefit to intervene would comment and offer advice, but you fail to comment on that evidence or offer any advice. Instead, you choose to criticise in one direction, and that criticism, when put is mild, but it ignores seriously bad behaviour in another. That is evidence to test faith.
And you should know that NPOV is a way of presenting both POVs in a manner in which the reader can see both and make their own minds up. Consensus was achieved in anecdotal evidence with a different editor who was neutral independent and who responded to the RfC [[41]]. But even if there were a POV in anecdotal evidence all User:Tearlach needed to do was assist in coming to a consensus, but User:Tearlach did not. When I had produced references and met finally all the points User:Tearlach had to put[[42]], User:Tearlach turned the RfC into a dispute over fact not POV or references [[43]]. He then took one cherry-picked one remark when the patience of saint would be tested and put it as a complaint on the admins noticeboard as part of the false complaint [[44]]. That is plainly bad faith.
In view of
  • your close correspondence and dialogue with those who have positively set out to cause mischief, as I have documented (and can document further), and
  • your involvement in anecdotal evidence and
  • because of the other circumstances of your intervention
I hope you can forgive my commenting that anyone who did not treat such an approach with caution would be reckless. There is too much trickery going on as I have shown [[45]].
The Invisible Anon 10:21, 13 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] More Deletion of Fully Referenced Information

Following comments from Midgley moved from User Page - my reply below:-

"And here is the actual content of that page, demonstrating the references offered do not actually say what was asserted":-
"In particular, I'd question the references":-
"In London, England uptake of the MMR vaccine is approximately 50% 54
"this is a link to the Mail article, in a news summary on the BMJ site. Quoting it as BMJ rather than Mail could be seen as an effort to raise its status from newspaper to learned journal, whjich, it has been asserted, is a common behaviour in anti-vaccinationist publication. Reading it, what it actually says about uptake is "The report reveals that in seven London boroughs, uptake of MMR remains below 50 per cent. " Not in London therefore, since there are more boroughs than that. One could easily think that was a deliberate misrepresentation in direct speech. You know, a lie."
"and in some areas uptake is a low as 10% 55".
"Figures from the Department of Health for 2004-05 showed that in Westminster, London, just 11.7 per cent of children were immunised by their fifth birthday."
"One area. Not actually, quite, if one were trying for accuracy, as low as 10%. In fact a completely truthful description might be more like "no area was as low as 10%" "
"In other parts of the UK the uptake is similarly low. 56 Was that referring to this quote: "Craven and Harrogate areas featuring among the country's 10 poorest performers at 52.8 per cent,"
"52.8% similar to 10% which is not the level which Westminster fails to achieve by age 5 (note that the Torygraph picks up that single jabs mean the course is completed later - if it is - so if you look at later ages you'll find a slow pickup from that.)"
"after that short intermission we return to something that might be science"
"The Cochrane review has been undermined by subquent further reports of harm caused by the MMR vaccine raised by the former senior UK government scientific advisor on vaccine safety. 57 "
"I think he might be a former senior ... rather than the singular definite article. Otherwise it would be creeping up his status, don't you think?"
"GOing to that article we see":-
"after agreeing to be an expert witness on drug-safety trials for parents' lawyers," ... "He called the sudden termination of legal aid to parents of allegedly vaccine-damaged children in late 2003 "a monstrous injustice"."
"Oh did he oh was he oh what a pity about the funding for his appearance going away. Gosh. Midgley 15:17, 9 February 2006 (UTC)"


In Reply

The main assertion is "the references offered do not actually say what was asserted" and there is lying and deliberate misrepresentation:-

  • "approximately 50%" is neither lying or nor misrepresentation of "54%".
  • a round figure of "10%" is neither lying nor misrepresentation of 11.7%
  • it is not lying or misrepresentation that other parts of the country have "similarly low uptake" to London (ie. 50%) when they do
  • the Daily Mail is not lying or deliberate misrepresenting London MMR uptake as below 50% when they did not say that and neither did my text
  • the former senior government scientist on vaccine safety who speaks out cannot have a financial conflict of interest when he is no longer a paid expert witness in litigation
others who spoke out are investigated by the GMC, so he is taking a brave position
  • it cannot be lying or misrepresenting a report being from the BMJ when the news story states clearly at the beginning it is from the Daily Mail
It is also interesting to note the censorship on Wikipedia - all of the links to the [Abolish The GMC Campaign] on a mere talk page have been deleted [[46]]. Oh, and Fletcher was the senior government adviser.

The Invisible Anon 11:03, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

Why Claudius?? Which is where the first "full reference" perhaps coincidentally numbered "54" points. It should and did point to where it does on the Talk:Anti-vaccinationist page which is where discussion of that should and does take place if you have any wish to inform rather than spread your own untrue version of events. Midgley 12:40, 10 February 2006 (UTC)
I see that although the phrase "similar levels" followed a mention of "10%" you assert it referred to the preceding 50% which meant 54%. Perhaps it should have been re-written? I do not recall Fletcher being the Chief Medical Officer - who is the senior medical adviser, in any case there ahve been since then several, if not many of them. And he is quoted immediately after ceasing to have held out to him payment for appearing in a legal case, and not before. Midgley 19:59, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

This means nothing to me. The Invisible Anon 20:20, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

Managed to work out this bit though - another incorrect statement "immediately after ceasing" - incorrect because funding for the litigation ceased in October 2003. The former senior government advisor Fletcher spoke out in 2006 three years later - which is hardly "immediately after". The Invisible Anon 06:47, 14 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Your user page

As I said on my edit to your user page, if you wish to have a user page, get an account and follow WP:USER. In general, publishing your disputes with other users on your user page is considered to be unconstructive: you might like to have a look at Wikipedia:Dispute resolution for other ideas as to how to pursue your grievances. Physchim62 (talk) 20:39, 11 February 2006 (UTC)

Many thanks for your reply. Please note:-
  • I have a full copy of my user page as at 17:35, 10 February 2006.
  • there is no message on it from you at that time
  • the User page was deleted by you less than 24 hours later at 14:08, 11 February 2006 ([[47]]
  • the place for messages is not user pages but talk pages
  • it is less likely someone will see a message left on a deleted user page as
- that is not strictly "left" is it?
- Wikipedia only generates a "new messages" notice for messages on talk pages
  • my user page was not publishing disputes with other users, but it was serving a very useful purpose
  • I cannot find the Wikipedia policy on summary deletion of user pages without notice. Can you help with that one?
Look forward to hearing from you. The Invisible Anon 11:31, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

Please use Wikipedia:Dispute resolution to resolve your problems with other editors. That's what it's there for. Wikipedia is NOT a soapbox, and if you continue to use it for such purposes, I will have to block you for disruption. Physchim62 (talk) 17:27, 12 February 2006 (UTC)


The remarks which Midgley posted to the Admins Noticeboard [[48]] to persuade you to delete my User page
  • were not on my User page
  • and they are not even by me
  • I have just seen the Admins Noticeboard [[49]]
  • a wholly independent editor just posted this regarding Midgley
"Added NPOV Template - this is the most biased entry on wikipedia I have ever seen" [[50]]
  • you were tricked into deleting my User page.
  • Please therefore do not block me. I am not doing any disrupting.
I am obliged to try and engage you in dialogue before instituting formal procedure regarding the deletion and Midgley's behaviour
The Invisible Anon 21:48, 12 February 2006 (UTC)
Ombudsman is right (for a change) - AfD is not appropriate. It should be MfD, as AfD is for articles, while MfD is for, as the name indicates, Miscellany. Michael Ralston 20:29, 25 February 2006 (UTC)
Clearly it has to go. WP may be big enough for any number of us, but only one by any one name at a time. The Invisible Anon 15:06, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Advice?

Hi, Invisible Anon - do you have any advice for dealing with ongoing harassment from an Admin? Submitting 3RR complaint didn't work - just drew snide remarks depicting me as trouble for submitting multiple complaints ("rants"). Here's the page with the situation: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Rankism&action=history

Also, I'm trying to figure out if there's anything I can do to help you in this Deletion threat. The link to the Noticeboard and the Deletion page both go to archived discussions. Sorry I didn't think to follow your link back here sooner. What I think is that there are some guys (including some admins) treating Wikipedia as a war game - trying to exploit the rules instead of following them, gathering alliances against weak targets, etc. If there's any page on Wikipedia where one can oppose this sort of thing, could you point it out? --Pansophia 05:23, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Midgley

Well.

If your allegations are accurate, then clearly what Midgley is doing is wrong.

I'm not yet ready to make that assumption either way - after all, going by what I know, it's equally likely that you're doing this yourself in order to try to get him in trouble.

Therefore, I'm going to post a Checkuser request. Whoever it is should definitely get into trouble. Michael Ralston 19:33, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

I think the world will be improved by not having this page, but in the meantime, I'd appreciate a cessation of use of it for attacking me. That is not one of the purposes regarded as proper on WP. I'm the only person here with any interest in WP, but I'm not the only person here or elsewhere who has noticed this situation. All anyone ever has to do to reserve a name is to generate an account. To not do that is just one of a myriad of things that anyone might perfectly reasonably refrain from doing but to pretend that one has done it is perverse. To pretend one has done it, and then complain when having come up with a memorable if rather Zen name that somebody else picks it is silly. And given the comment this user generates, it is surprising nobody grabbed it sooner. Midgley 20:24, 27 February 2006 (UTC)
Midgley, your behaviour here strikes me as being a violation of WP:POINT, among other things. As inclined as I am to agree with you on certain topics, you're making me very disinclined to want to help you with, well... anything. Michael Ralston 01:05, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] An olive branch, of sorts

86.10: This situation is completely absurd. Can the two of us agree to be civil to one another? We still disagree, but I think that if we ignore Midgley, we can at least come to an agreement on some issues. I'm willing to strike out all the "side moves" I've made (in, eg, the MfD for this page - indeed, I'll change my vote from Delete to Keep based on this entire mess), if you're willing to do likewise with the ones you've done about me.

That is, if you're willing to withdraw your accusations etc of me from AN/I, and we can mutually agree to strike out our pointless little discursion on the AV RfC, I'm willing to withdraw the hostile actions I've taken so far. Deal? Michael Ralston 01:05, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

I think we both have been civil and we can always be more civil. Of course we can disagree - a most useful phrase which our German speaking colleagues sometimes have difficulty with in translation is "agreeing to disagree". I appreciate your offer and I am willing to meet you on it. There is one thing first you might do to assist which I think you will have no difficulty with. If you can, then I see no reason not to agree on:-
  • your striking the side moves and changing the vote
  • my withdrawing the reports on AN/I and the accusations - provided naturally that if anyone later alleges the accusations were unfounded (esp. someone like User:Midgley) that I am allowed to defend myself - otherwise I will be happy to forget the whole episode
Is there a mechanism for withdrawing the reports? Or does that just require a comment added at the end? I have no problem with the whole thing being removed - albeit there will be an archive somewhere which I will also be happy to forget about if that assists.
The reason you will have no difficulty with the one thing I ask is because someone has already obliged. Can you put a supportive comment here - if you take a look at this [[51]] you will see that a sockpuppet (for someone who has clearly been following me around very closely) is trying to stir up more trouble. You will also see that an anon IP has answered - with some irony - "You know that's pretty amazing, seeing as how this is your first ever edit of wikipedia".
I hope I have captured correctly what you would like to achieve. Please let me know if it is not. Is that a deal?
Talk - The Original Invisible Anon at 86.10.231.219 01:47, 28 February 2006 (UTC)
It's a deal. I just want to ratchet down the disagreements. (And I do think your reports/accusations were unfounded... but there's a world of difference between "unfounded" and "in bad faith".) As far as I know for removing, just saying as such will do. And yeah, there's an archive... but as long as we don't need to pay attention to it, it doesn't matter. I think I've pretty much withdrawn what I've done - if not, I'm sure you'll let me know where the issues are. Michael Ralston 06:42, 1 March 2006 (UTC)


[edit] Midley

Hi, Invisible Anon - Midgley is now placing tags on my other articles to suggest that they be merged. I assume this is in retaliation for my support over the username incident? What should I do? I went to the Merge Recommendation page and didn't see my article on the list. --Pansophia 02:15, 9 April 2006 (UTC)

The merge recommendation was actually the outcome of an afd discussion on that article, (I don't think there are two, but by all menas name a second one). Merge tags have been simply removed by the main author of the article, which is not how things should be done. Midgley 21:17, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Please cease attacking and disparaging me

Alternatively, if you feel you have some reason - bearing in mind and explaining the earliest half dozen of your contributions to WP - let me know about it. Your conduct has been persistently contrary to several WP standards with respect most obviously to me. Midgley 20:07, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] User:Midgley - Please cease attacking and disparaging me and User:Pansophia

Dear Dr Adrian Midgley,

I should be obliged if you would cease attacking and disparaging me. You make generalised claims without foundation or evidence and you keep doing it. Kindly stop trying to pick a fight. You are doing exactly the same thing here [[52]] with User:Pansophia. There is also no obvious reason for your attacking her Wikipedia articles other than her involvement in your extraordinary behaviour impersonating me.

Your behaviour ever since you started editing on Wikipedia has been the cause of complaint by many individuals on many occasions. There is ample evidence in numerous places on Wikipedia.

However, nothing you do, not even impersonation of other editors has resulted in you being blocked whereas others are routinely blocked for relatively trivial reasons.

Just because you publish your identity on Wikipedia does not change the fact that your trying to publish or your publishing the identity of other editors is a WP:BLOCK offence - see [[53]] which can also amount to Wikipedia:Harassment.

You published User:Leifern's private identity after he privately emailed you. You have also published john's identity despite the fact he is on record on Wikipedia saying he objected when the same thing was done by User:Jfdwolff. Now you are trying to do the same to me. First you have been trying to find out where I live. Then you said I was called Stone and later Miller. Your behaviour is objectionable - I am not the only person to find it so and you should be blocked indefinitely. It is Wikipedia:Harassment.

It is notable that User:Jfdwolff was not blocked publishing john's name either. That is clear evidence that the allopathic lobby admins who are so keen to block others let you and others carry on regardless.

I also particularly note the abusive citation of WP:CIV and Wikipedia:Assume good faith. It is not uncivil to point out bad behaviour and require the perpetrator to rectify it. Where there is clear evidence of bad faith, as here, assuming bad faith is not an issue - there is no assumption being made.

Whilst I appreciate during your military career you may have picked up various ideas, but it is not acceptable for you to bring your military tactics to the civilian area to engage in disinformation campaigns to camouflage your current and prior behaviour.

I also draw your attention to Wikipedia:Harassment where it states:-

Harassment is defined as a pattern of disruptive behavior that appears to a reasonable and objective observer to have the purpose of causing negative emotions in a targeted person or persons, usually (but not always) for the purpose of intimidating the primary target. The purpose could be to make editing Wikipedia unpleasant for the target, to undermine them, to frighten them, or to encourage them to stop editing entirely.
Harassment is sometimes described as a violation of don't disrupt Wikipedia to prove a point or no personal attacks, but is properly both a subset and special case of both, while at the same time being separate from both for definition reasons.

I trust I have made the position clear.


Talk - The Invisible Anon 07:59, 19 April 2006 (UTC)

Not entirely, given the first few edits in your contributions - these appear to be you using WP as a vehicle to respond to something from elsewhere, which I reasonably assume to be part of activities in the rapid response columns of the BMJ. You are trying to cast your persistently predominantly disruptive activities on WP as retaliation for something - which if it was any excuse or justification could not have preceded them.

Your discription of many complaints is untrue - there are a small number of editors whose avocation is anti-vaccination who have been persistently unpleasant, and noticed to be so whose unpleasantness has included continued personal attacks, and nobody else. Again, these are not responses, they are origination, and a familiar tactic by the breed from elsewhere.

You don't like being reminded of WP:CIV so I'll remind you of the most relevant WP policy to you, which is WP:DICK. Midgley 09:10, 19 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Interaction with Midgley

Look, I understand that you and User:Midgley aren't particularly fond of one another. Frankly, neither one of you has been a paragon of good faith and civility in your dealings with others.

Nevertheless, I would strongly discourage you from engaging in a campaign that encourages other editors to harrass or hound Midgley. ([54], [55], [56], [57], [58]) From a purely selfish standpoint, it leaves you with unclean hands if you should ever be in a position to request sanctions.

If you would like to present a complaint about the behaviour of another editor, do so yourself. Don't try to form a lynch mob. It's unhelpful.

Better still, contribute to an article. That's what we're all supposed to be here for. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 13:09, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Response To User:TenOfAllTrades

User:TenOfAllTrades' comments are inappropriate for a number of reasons. The following should put User:TenOfAllTrades' latest attempt at intervention and protection of User:Midgley in its proper context.
It is presuming an extraordinary degree of bad faith to accuse six editors of acting as a "lynch mob". Only Admins have the privileges to behave in such a manner (and see below for specific examples relevant to these issues where they have so used them). Other editors have to use due process and that particularly applies to the editors about whom User:TenOfAllTrades is so uncivil without evidence, cause or justification. User:TenOfAllTrades further accuses the editors concerned of being about to harass and hound User:Midgley which is again presuming an extraordinary degree of bad faith. It would be wise for User:TenOfAllTrades to apologise to each of them or risk further diminishing authority.
This is all in relation to an editor User:Midgley of whom he said "You will be blocked from editing if you engage in any obnoxious behaviour from now on." [[59]]. Naturally, User:Midgley has still not been blocked despite continuing his behaviour. This also demonstrates that this has nothing to do with personalities despite User:TenOfAllTrades's attempt to describe it as such (a further inappropriate comment from him).
User:TenOfAllTrades' suggestion that I present a complaint about the behaviour of User:Midgley is inappropriate because I am personally directly involved in the incident which provoked the suggestion. When I approach a number of other editors to suggest formal action be taken, it is also inappropriate to describe that as trying "to form a lynch mob" when these mature adult and responsible people are perfectly capable of deciding in a cool and rational manner whether any action should be taken. They also have no power to behave as "lynch mob", which is therefore a most inapposite term in the circumstances.
User:TenOfAllTrades is closely and personally involved with User:Midgley as demonstrated here [[60]]. There are other examples.
Further, User:TenOfAllTrades has made no secret of his personal animosity to me which includes use of uncivil and abusive terms like "dick" [[61]] (among other things). Comparing me to User:Midgley is also inappropriate when there is no similarity. In particular, his comment "Frankly, neither one of you has been a paragon of good faith and civility in your dealings with others." is not true as applied to me, is not supported by any evidence but it does exemplify his personal emotional involvement and harassment of me.
User:TenOfAllTrades' close association with User:Midgley also includes being directly involved in making disparaging and unsubstantiated remarks as part of User:Midgley's false complaint [[62]] which led to the regrettable kind of behaviour that User:TenOfAllTrades describes as "lynch mob". In an unfortunate and inappropriate use of Admin privileges User:Physchim62 summarily destroyed my user page on the strength of that false complaint without a sideways glance at due process or policy. The deletion was gross behaviour of an unusual degree of impropriety.
I would also remind User:TenOfAllTrades of further "lynch mob" behaviour of User:Essjay his close friend [[63]] who
  • personally vandalised AN/I by deleting my edit [[64]] - note especially the evidence of intention - the edit summary he added claiming he was just reverting to a prior version by him when he had not created any prior version and knew that full well at the time
  • claimed I was responsible for his vandalism of my own edit [[65]] - note also the reference to harassment of User:Thsgrn which is fallacious and another editor noted that I was the one being harassed.
  • and imposed a block on me for this vandalism committed by him [[66]] - note the reference in the log claiming falsely he had blocked me for "Vandalism at AN/I" when it was his own vandalism
  • and whilst I was blocked (so could not do anything about it) User:Essjay deleted text from this talk page [[67]]. That text was text in which I directly noted previously inappropriate behaviour by User:TenOfAllTrades.
Talk - The Invisible Anon 00:42, 21 April 2006 (UTC)
Ten, it is clear from your prior comments that you tend to side with the perspectives of those who have wantonly deleted content and links that would help bring medical articles toward npov status. The Invisible Anon's objective is clearly not related to inciting harassment of Midgely, but rather to induce some degree of restraint on his wayward behavior, which has continued unabated in part, seemingly, because of the apparent encouragement of editors like yourself. Ignoring the user doesn't seem to help, nor do gentle but clear hints. The administrative processes available for dispute resolution are not particularly user friendly, especially with the increasingly vehement rhetoric spewed forth by a number of gangs that have formed to push mainstream or politically correct povs, and at times the processes seem to resemble public stocks. You seem to have mis-cast The Original Anon's request for assistance (hopefully not deliberately) as something quite the opposite of his obvious intent, countering the egregious behavior of Midgely. His misbehavior has continued for months, unmitigated due to the advantage of having mainstream dogma at his back and perhaps unintended misrepresentations like yours above. If you are dedicated to the notion of building a comprehensive encyclopedia, you would put a little more effort into assuring that editors, like Francesca of MindFreedomBC and Cesar Tort who have attempted to bring balance to dogma prone artiles, don't get hounded out of the Wiki. Ombudsman 17:38, 20 April 2006 (UTC)
I have never met TenOfAllTrades, nor collaborated with him in any substantial subproject, nor IIRC had any non-visible communications with him. The comments above are typically inverse. Midgley 22:49, 21 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Mediation

Will you accept, ask for or agree to mediation? Midgley 22:24, 21 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Appropriate Remedies for Appropriate Circumstances

Midgley is most unusual. Here he asks for mediation, but within less than 30 minutes of that request he describes what I wrote here [[68]] as "complete bollocks" using an edit summary [[69]] to hide it by referring to WP:CB.

Clearly contrary to WP:NPA, he seems unable to stop himself engaging in this behaviour and this on top of everything else he has been doing. It seems to answer to his own question I fear, but someone else has already been asked that question and also answered it here [[70]].

Should anyone be expected to go through mediation with someone who displays unremitting recidivist behaviour when as another editor has noted here [[71]] the

" administrative processes available for dispute resolution are not particularly user friendly, especially with the increasingly vehement rhetoric spewed forth by a number of gangs that have formed to push mainstream or politically correct povs, and at times the processes seem to resemble public stocks."

Regrettably, a very long if not indefinite block seems to be the appropriate treatment. A life sentence at the moment seems the only sensible solution unfortunately for this poor fellow because he shows no signs of changing.

What should any justice system's response be to anyone who asks for "mediation" when repeatedly caught red-handed? Would mediation be considered an appropriate mechanism in those circumstances?

And after all, I do not have a dispute with Midgley. His offences are ones against everyone, not me. I am not here to police Wikipedia - that's what we have admins for - if only one could be found who acted impartially fairly and did the job. Little chance of that I fear in the light of this response [[http://meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Angela&oldid=297045#Growth_of_Powerful_Subcultures_in_Wikipedia ]] from Angela, a Steward responsible for policing the Admins.

Talk - The Invisible Anon 09:40, 22 April 2006 (UTC)

You assert that we do not have a dispute.
Was that a yes or a no on mediation? Midgley 09:54, 22 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] More Disruption

Midgley added the following comment to the above text

This is untrue. The comment referred to is by Ombudsman, and is contrafactual to an extent described by the WP non-policy commentary at WP:CB. Midgley 09:56, 22 April 2006 (UTC)
Regrettably it is true as anyone can see - he describes another editor's edit as "complete bollocks" within 30 minutes of requesting mediation. And again, as he has done so many times Midgley disrupts the edits of others as seen in this example - hence it has been moved here. Talk - The Invisible Anon 10:28, 22 April 2006 (UTC)
This statement above is untrue, and my edit was not disruptive, nor is it proper to describe it as disruptive. Midgley 10:32, 22 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] clarification

FOr ease of reading, the annotation and comment are reproduced here - the last edit tended to obscure the clear relationship between them. " Midgley is most unusual. Here he asks for mediation, but within less than 30 minutes of that request he describes what I wrote here [[72]] as "complete bollocks" using an edit summary [[73]] to hide it by referring to WP:CB.

This is untrue. The comment referred to is by Ombudsman, and is contrafactual to an extent described by the WP non-policy commentary at WP:CB. Midgley 09:56, 22 April 2006 (UTC)

" Midgley 10:31, 22 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] "clarification" regrettably untrue

User:Midgley does not deny describing other editors' edits as "complete bollocks" within less than 30 minutes of seeking mediation. His denial is much more unusual. His "denial" is that he described only one of the editor's edits as "complete bollocks" (User:Ombudsman's). Apparently in his eyes this makes him "not guilty", whereas regrettably, he did it.

Evidence:
  • request for mediation here [[74]]
  • edits here [[75]] are described by User:Midgley as "complete bollocks" here [[76]] using an edit summary to hide it by referring to WP:CB.

Talk - The Invisible Anon 22:38, 22 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] RFC

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Requests_for_comment/86.10.231.219 Midgley 20:13, 22 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Obfusc untrue accusation of lying

This is actually quite simple as the history of the page shows.

Starting from

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:86.10.231.219&diff=prev&oldid=49512219

Below Ombudsman's attack on user TenOfAllTrades which said " Ten, it is clear from your prior comments that you tend to side with the perspectives of those who have wantonly deleted content and links that would help bring medical articles toward npov status. The Invisible Anon's objective is clearly not related to inciting harassment of Midgely, but rather to induce some degree of restraint on his wayward behavior, which has continued unabated in part, seemingly, because of the apparent encouragement of editors like yourself. Ignoring the user doesn't seem to help, nor do gentle but clear hints. The administrative processes available for dispute resolution are not particularly user friendly, especially with the increasingly vehement rhetoric spewed forth by a number of gangs that have formed to push mainstream or politically correct povs, and at times the processes seem to resemble public stocks. You seem to have mis-cast The Original Anon's request for assistance (hopefully not deliberately) as something quite the opposite of his obvious intent, countering the egregious behavior of Midgely. His misbehavior has continued for months, unmitigated due to the advantage of having mainstream dogma at his back and perhaps unintended misrepresentations like yours above. If you are dedicated to the notion of building a comprehensive encyclopedia, you would put a little more effort into assuring that editors, like Francesca of MindFreedomBC and Cesar Tort who have attempted to bring balance to dogma prone artiles, don't get hounded out of the Wiki. Ombudsman 17:38, 20 April 2006 (UTC) "

I added "

I have never met TenOfAllTrades, nor collaborated with him in any substantial subproject, nor IIRC had any non-visible communications with him. The comments above are typically inverse. Midgley 22:49, 21 April 2006 (UTC)

"

For the avoidance of all doubt, I do consider Ombudsman's comment to be wholly rubbish, complete bollocks, untrue and without merit,

The edit summary, which does not "hide" anything, but rather puts in a terse but sufficient way the nature of the correction I made to this page's contents points, not for the first time, to a WP page giving detail, rather than writing it out at length. The only person up to now who has mentioned complete bollux on this page is 86.10.231.219 himself - typically he accuses someone else of having done that. The effect of moving comments around, by 86. is to obscure the meaning and sequence, typically, he accuses someone else ...

86. You assert you have no dispute with me, I do not think that anyone looking at your behaviour will accept that as truth. The RFC on your behaviour, overall, since your first edit, is now quorate, and it would be appropriatge for you to respond to it.

Midgley 23:08, 22 April 2006 (UTC)


It is not clear what the above lengthy denial is about or its purpose. Talk - The Invisible Anon 23:22, 24 April 2006 (UTC)

Yes it is. Midgley 00:37, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
OK, if it is clear, then you must surely be able to please explain in a simple sentence. It is not at all clear to me.
Talk - The Invisible Anon 00:41, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] More Personal Attacks

The above is an example of trolling by User:Midgley. I am obliged to him from drawing my attention to the appropriate definition of this kind of behaviour. He has been asked to explain - says it is clear - but is unable to provide an explanation. There is none it would seem. He has not been accused of lying. The personal attack against me by his accusations of lying is uncivil. Talk - The Invisible Anon 07:07, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

Your accusations of trolling and personal attacks are equally uncivil. He most likely did not respond because he believed you were trolling by feigning ignorance of something so simple. It is indeed ridiculous to assert that you have no dispute with Midgley, as the very way you are accusing each other of lying/attacks/etc. constitutes a dispute, and I see nothing but incivility between you and Midgley from the very beginning of your edit history. Would you care to explain why there has been no truce reached between you? Surely it is a waste of your time to argue with Midgley and attempt to convince others that he deserves to be blocked. –Tifego(t) 07:42, 26 April 2006 (UTC)
Replied to on User Talk:Tifego - See full reply here [[77]]
Talk - The Invisible Anon 09:51, 26 April 2006 (UTC)
For the record, your reply did not address anything at all in my comment above (except for the first half of the third sentence, for which you provided no evidence). I didn't ask you to provide condemning evidence of Midgly's actions, and it's really not relevant. –Tifego(t) 18:17, 26 April 2006 (UTC)
Thank you for that. I have re-read your earlier comment. Please accept my apologies for not appreciating first time around that it is carefully thought out. On a second reading it is an endeavour to get to the issues - whatever they are. It is worthy of an alternative response.
Whilst I am not, on first pass, adding links to evidence to support what I say here, if you see the sense of this and want to see evidence, then the task of tracking it down can be undertaken if there is any useful gain to be had from that.
On your first point, if I made out a case with evidence in support that User:Midgley is "trolling", that I assume would not be uncivil as it goes beyond mere accusation? There is evidence and I have a possible example in mind.
As for the issue of there being a dispute with User:Midgley, there are two levels to that. On the higher level, I have no dispute with User:Midgley. My dispute is with the system on Wikipedia which allows someone to do the things which he does which, from my perspective are unacceptable (and I am not alone in thinking that).
On a paragraph-by-paragraph basis I and many others have disputes with User:Midgley. The most instructive and lengthiest series is that User:Leifern's endurance stands testament to in his earnest endeavours to achieve NPOV on the Anti-vaccinationist page.
The "dispute" on this page about the "complete bollocks" remark is an example of a transient paragraph-by-paragraph dispute. It is now no longer - it would seem - a dispute about whether User:Midgley did within less than 30 minutes of requesting mediation describe the comments of myself and/or [[User:Ombudsman] as "complete bollocks". It now seems to have moved on to a dispute about some other aspect and I am waiting to hear further from User:Midgley what that might be.
As for feigning ignorance, I thought I had worked out what User:Midgley was saying concerning the "complete bollocks" remark, but it seems from the most recent exchange (below) that is not the case. I am waiting for User:Midgley to explain.
As for achieving truces with User:Midgley, I think it is necessary to understand how he acts from the perspective of someone who seeks to put an alternative POV to appreciate that it is unlikely anyone will ever achieve a truce with him. All the people I have seen just avoid editing where he is involved, as I do. That is the closest thing to a "truce" that I have seen.
As for seeking to have User:Midgley blocked and incivility, the chronology tells the tale well. I was asked by User:Panophia what to do. She was supportive to me when User:Midgley registered The Invisible Anon and Invisible Anon as sockpuppets and started impersonating me. Following that episode she was concerned because User:Midgley started following her around Wikipedia and started editing articles she edited but which were topics well outside the normal purview of User:Midgley. User:Midgley also engaged in other objectionable behaviour so I openly canvassed other users on whether a block should be sought.
User:Midgley's response was to apply to have my talk page deleted. When that was unsuccessful he made the RfC that we currently see, accusing me of being a "troll". The speed with which these actions were undertaken suggest they were undertaken out of pique.
If it were not for the fact that User:Pansophia had asked for my assistance, the present position would not pertain. Accordingly, your last point (blocking/incivility) would have been academic were it not for the actions User:Midgley took to provoke the present situation. [User:Tearlach]] has put himself in the position of being in line for an RfC on his conduct for having weighed in on User:Midgley's seemingly ill-considered RfC against me.
Does this assist to answer the points you have raised? Does that assist you to understand the present situation and whether there are in fact any disputes capable of resolution?
Talk - The Invisible Anon 22:33, 26 April 2006 (UTC)
Tearlach put it very nicely in the quote from the RFC to which 86 has chosen as yet to make no proper response to.

"...cracterised this user's communications as "filibustering, addressing criticism with pages of verbal fog while professing the utmost reasonability in doing so. Like someone who spits in your soup in a restaurant, then when you complain says: "Thank you for your comment. What do we mean by spit? What do we mean by soup? The 473 differing recipes for soup in Larousse Gastronomique show that there is no agreed definition of soup. Your complaint fails to address specifically how the supposed soup might be improved. I welcome constructive discussion to reach an amicable solution". "

The user page of User:86.10.231.219 this user was blanked and locked shut because he persisted in using it as an attack page. This is unusual and indicates an unusual obduracy and sustained behaviour which seems incompatible with anyone being here to make an encyclopaedia. This talk page is being used essentially in the same way, and includes some of the same material, retrieved from the deleted user page to continue the attacks. The closing admin for the MfD for this page took the view that erasing the evidence would not be the best thing to do.

Higher in this page it is suggested that I identified "John", which is not something I recall - many claims have diffs attached to them, some of which point to places which may be relevant, but that one does not.

Separately, with respect to 86., identifying a troll who has followed one to WP in order to wikistalk and comit personal attacks as an aim rather than in the course of an argument is both reasonable and clearly necessary, but if the assertion that it should not have happened is accepted, then 86. is making a WP:POINT in persistently linkning my name and details to his claims. Midgley 08:11, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

Midgley save if for the RfC - all above by Midgley incorrect and disputed. See responses in due course to RfC.
Talk - The Invisible Anon 09:51, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] You have just been "Midglied"

Dear Tifego(t),

If you please read my talk page closely again you will see that "trolling" is accurate and not unjustified. You also seem to think there is a dispute, but there is not.

User:Midgley denied several times describing as "complete bollocks" what I and/or User:Ombudsman said and that he did this within 30 minutes of asking for mediation.

But in the passage you comment on he now admits it. He does it in a very lengthy passage and ends up claiming it was me all along. He also claims I am lying and accusing him of lying. That is classic "trolling" within the meaning of the definition you kindly provided. Proof of that is the fact you are blaming me for it and not asking User:Midgley to explain himself.

Further, as User:Midgley has now admitted the behaviour he previously was denying and which was disputed by him, there is no longer any dispute over it.

More Examples
How long have you been acquainted with what User:Midgley does?
User:TenOfAllTrades told him after he created a sockpuppet to impersonate me "You will be blocked from editing if you engage in any obnoxious behaviour from now on." - See [[78]]
If you want more examples of classic trolling, take a look here [[79]] and here [[80]].
You could also usefully ask User:Leifern about his experiences with User:Midgley. He has suffered extensively whilst trying to do what we are all supposed to try to do - write an encyclopaedia.
You could then ask User:Pansophia her opinion.
I intend to start dealing with the recent oppressively lengthy RfC on me by User:Midgley et al soon. You will then see more about this and that what I am saying is true.
If you check out the RfC listings you will also see to save himself the bother of having a dispute, then having to attempt to resolve "it" and mediate "it" he has "relisted" an old RfC. This is the RfC against User:Ombudsman. See here [[81]].
He also seems to have engaged in the "relisting" in order to coincide with the RfC on me which you will also see there and another RfC he has listed against john.

Talk - The Invisible Anon 09:45, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

The comment below by User:Midgley (disputing text by me)was inserted after the immediately following sentence by me. The comment is moved here to avoid disrupting the above edit:-
Further, as User:Midgley has now admitted the behaviour he previously was denying and which was disputed by him, there is no longer any dispute over it.
This is untrue. Midgley 18:25, 26 April 2006 (UTC)
Perhaps User:Midgley would be kind enough to explain as briefly as possible which part he believes to be "untrue".
Talk - The Invisible Anon 21:39, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] WP:NPA added by User:Midgley

Following was added to the beginning of this section by User:Midgley and moved here to avoid disrupting the above edit:- "Please see Wikipedia's no personal attacks policy. Comment on content, not on the contributor; personal attacks damage the community and deter users. Note that continued personal attacks may lead to blocks for disruption. Please stay cool and keep this in mind while editing. Thank you. Midgley 00:17, 27 April 2006 (UTC)"

Talk - The Invisible Anon

[edit] Meaning of "troll"

See Internet troll.

I replied on my talk page, but forgot to respond to your question about what "troll" might mean. –Tifego(t) 06:42, 24 April 2006 (UTC)

Oh, and see Wikipedia:Troll too; that may give a more relevant definition. –Tifego(t) 06:50, 24 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Anecdotal evidence

Thanks for the kind words about my edits on that article. Jokestress 01:39, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Comments Placed on User talk:Tifego

For the record - comments placed on User talk:Tifego's talk page here today [[82]]

Talk - The Invisible Anon 11:51, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] If you have a complaint

Take it to mediation, or to RFC, or by all means go directly to ArbCom as you have previously been advised by more than one admin. Please cease making allegations about me on other people's talk pages. They are so carefully inaccurate and persistent despite correction that they are unmistakably personal attacks. If they relate to the RFC in progress then I suggest that ratehr than claiming yourself to be likely to be busy soon you actually write a response - certainly I see no likelihood of anyone believing a claim by you that you have not had time. Midgley 16:37, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for the advice. See [[83]].
Lets get on with the real matters in hand - and get these disputes dealt with in a civilised manner according to the accepted protocols.
Looks like you are doing the same thing with me as you did with User:Leifern over the personal attacks - to make it look like he was the one making them when he was defending himself against your attacks.
One thing I do try to be is accurate - and here we see further attacks against me by you on that and other matters. These are all contested. Please do try to stop making personal attacks.
Advised to go direct to ArbCom? Where do you claim that is? Does that sound like a good idea to you?
Talk - The Invisible Anon 18:06, 26 April 2006 (UTC)
It is advice which I have seen appended to your remarks on an admin's user page. I am not offering you advice on beyond that on it, nor am I going to chase up a reference for it for you. If it helps, it was in the context of an admin who wished you to cease bothering him with demands he do something to me, and reminded you to go via mediation, RFC, and ArbCom if you thought you would be safe to do so. If that doesn't narrow it down much, or it does stand out in your memory you may care to consider whether it should have been received more than once by anyone, if as many times as one.
You may wish to view the discussion on etiquette on the village pump and on the relevant page - Etiquette since you regard your signature as proper. Please don't let me distract you from getting on with the resolution of however many disputes you are involved in (your count differs from mine and Tearlach's and presumably you would cahracterise that as disputed as well) - the proper channel is the response section and the talk page of the RFC on your behaviour. Note that it is still open to you to request mediation, and entirely possible that if you do so one of the mediation cabal will pick up the request and offer you assistance. Midgley 18:20, 26 April 2006 (UTC)
Mediation is premature. There have to be attempts to discuss the issues. As for the RfC, I have made clear already to User:Tearlach the problems that procedure has and why it is premature.
The comment regarding mechanisms for dispute resolution was, if I recall, by Archie(?) Norman(?) in relation to dealing with the question of obtaining a block and did not relate to current matters in hand.
Talk - The Invisible Anon 22:46, 26 April 2006 (UTC)
OK, which dispute are you talking about now? Midgley 23:18, 26 April 2006 (UTC)
For the avoidance of doubt, is your considered response to the RFC called by Tearlach and I as you give above - "I have made clear already to User:Tearlach the problems that procedure has and why it is premature."? If it is, it could reasonably go in the response section of the RFC, if it is not, what is it? Midgley 23:20, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Dual identities

You appear to have been editing using two IP addreses eg at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Requests_for_comment/Ombudsman Do you care to either confirm or deny that this is the case? 00:24, 29 April 2006 (UTC)

Here is a link giving the other IP address - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:81.111.172.198#4_day_block Midgley 00:27, 29 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Finished Adding "Disputes" To the RfC Yet?

Re User:Midgley's comments here [[84]] - I prefer to know when User:Midgley and his fellow RfC protagonists have finished adding "disputes" to the RfC.

So, when will you all be finished?

I have asked and have had no answer. Instead much wikilawyering amongst User:Midgley and fellow protagonists claiming RfC = beanfeast & disputes can be added by anyone at any time all the time [[85]].

It would seem there is some considerable sense in requiring clear confirmation User:Midgley and colleagues have finished their go so I can start mine.

Talk - The Invisible Anon 05:50, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Calling people liars (again) - yawn

Usual pleasantries here [[86]]. User:Midgley claims:-

  • Monday = holiday in England
  • no one works Thursday/Friday before holiday
  • ergo The Invisible Anon liar re: earning living

Tha's odd, those people working last Thursday and Friday - new immigrants from East Europe praps?

NB. User:Midgley is on "extended study leave" not to disrupt but to edit Wikipedia. Contrastingly, others who have to work for a living are liars apparently because they state that somewhat simple and obvious fact.

Whilst I await confirmation you folks have finished your part of the RfC I will earn a living. So if you would be so kind as to advise when you have quite finished, that would be appreciated so I can have my turn.

Talk - The Invisible Anon 05:50, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

This is untrue, I am not on leave, study or otherwise, extended or not, however in common with most of England, I did have a restful long weekend over the Bank holiday. I have not bothered to call whoever this user is a liar, but note now that what he says is untrue. User:86.11.84.3 above represents himself as the Invisiblae Anon, and claims that the talk page for 86.10.231.219 are his - this level of un-needed complication is typical, as is the accuracy. Midgley 08:50, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Evidence Dr Midgley himself says he is on leave

To defend myself against (yet again) being called a liar it is necessary to point out that

  • Dr Midgley himself claims he is on extended study leave
  • the computer media also carried the announcement - a little bird tells me.

See Dr Midgley's user page (version today [[87]]) link to his website [[88]] in turn linking to his practice website which claims it is bang up-to-date to May [[89]].

The news page [[90]] says Dr Midgley's absence on "extended study leave" is being covered by another doctor who joined the practice. There is no statement that this state of affairs has come to an end - and if it has, why does the website still claim it exists?

Accordingly, repeated use of the "liar" word is neither necessary nor appropriate and is an unfortunate choice (again regrettably). There was no need to suggest it in the first place regarding the need for others to earn a living. This is a further example of another dispute created by User:Midgley where another editor must defend himself against unpleasant allegations published on the internet via Wikipedia.

Talk - The Invisible Anon 09:58, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

User:86.11.84.3 who also claims to be the Invisible Anon and presumably has convinced Tenofalltrades that this is so, says various things above. To pick one, the Homefield Surgery news page states clearly that Dr Kinteh has moved on to be a partner in another Practice. I repeat, I am not on study leave, extended or otherwise, and when I was it was not for the purpose of working on WP. (If WP had actually been started at that time it had not reached the level of consciousness in the public, press, and trolls that it has now.) The date given on the news page actually is 2001, down at th bottom, and there is no claim anything on it is up to any date other than that applied to it. If anyone is bored enough to read any part of this they'll note that 86.11.84.3 doesn't actually point to anything backing up his strange claims. Midgley 13:05, 2 May 2006 (UTC)
This page is being used for unencyclopaedic purposes, in fact it is beginning to resemble a badly written page about me. Alas, most people do not consider me so notable to produce a WP page about me, but we seem to have three who are working on their own POV forks of one, but out of the article space - which is probably the only thing that avoids them being deleted as useless miscellaneae. Midgley 13:05, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Answer Requested - Please Confirm RfC Changes Complete

It would be helpful to have an answer to the question asked here [[91]] which is when will User:Midgley and his fellow RfC protagonists have finished adding "disputes" to the RfC.

So, when will you all be finished?

Talk - The Invisible Anon 09:58, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] IP Address changed overnight

I will continue here until edits etc can be re-attributed. Can be a long process apparently. See [[92]].

Talk - The Invisible Anon 07:57, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

You want the edits made by a user from 86.10.231.219 to be altered so that they say they were made by a user from 86.11.84.3 ? You just ran up against a reason for using a user identity, but I expect you'll be able to explain to anyone you ask why it should be different for you. Midgley 08:20, 2 May 2006 (UTC)