Talk:7x64mm

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Contents 1 Correct dimensions 2 References 3 7 x 64 edits 4 Wilhelm Brenneke 5 Removed "Brenneke" from the page name

[edit] Correct dimensions

There seems to be some difference of opinion on the cartridge dimensions. I have several sources and I named the one I used previously from COTW. If you're going to change the data, please list your source. Otherwise I will correct it to match the published sources I have. In addition to COTW I have dimensions from Lee, Hornady, Handloaders Manual, and Custom cartridges (which is probably the most accurate of them all). In addition there are definitely multiple reamers for this cartridge with slightly varying dimensions. Arthurrh 06:49, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] References

There are many statements made in this article that need references. Please don't simply remove the fact tags. They're not there to challenge the statements, simply to remind people to find the correct sources. Someone is making a lot of edits on this page without listing their sources. It helps everyone to list where the info comes from. Arthurrh 06:52, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] 7 x 64 edits

The 7 x 64 article needs to have references connected to the statements. Do you have some sources not listed in the article? It would be very helpful to list them, and especially to use the inline wiki-style references. Plus somehow we need to check all the sources on the dimensions and try to figure out which one(s) are correct. See the talk page there for more. Arthurrh 06:57, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

Thank you for your contributions to the 7 x64 article. As a European I can see for myself that many European hunters have 7 x 64 rifles and 7 x 65 R chambered break barrel rifles in actual field use. Reliable sales figures on cartridges are sadly hard to get in Europe (commercial secrecy?), but the fact that the 7 x 64 is offered by American ammunition manufactures says a lot about its commercial importance. Those manufacturers only seem to produce the commercially most important European cartridges. The dimensions in the drawing in the article must be quite correct since they are the official CIP dimensions giving them undisputable legal status in the 7 x 64 country of origin. CIP governs all technical things related to cartridges for a lot of European countries by law. It does not surprise me that data from SAAMI or ‘Cartridges of the world‘ deviates from CIP rulings. Lots of European hunters (in some countries legal arbitrary hunting licence exams have to be passed before you can even own let alone fire a hunting rifle) are aware of cartridge dimensional and maximum allowed pressure differences between CIP and SAAMI. controlled countries. Europeans even speak of “Delta L” problems when a perfectly CIP conform cut chamber will not properly function with (certain) factory loads from non CIP controlled countries like the US. An example of a possible “Delta L” problem source can be found in the section on the differences between 7 mm bores in Europe and the US, though lead cored 7 mm hunting bullets generally shoot satisfactory out of European CIP and US SAAMI conform 7 mm barrels. The same applies for US and German 8 mm bores. The 8 mm Remington Magnum bore dimensions also are slightly differing from the bore dimensions of German 8 mm cartridges. Francis Flinch 07:44, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

I will try to check what I can tonight. I suspect I can find a referenceable source for the dimensions. How did you get the CIP dimensions? If we can just reference that it would be good enough, it doesn't need to be online. Re the popularity, I don't doubt it. What we need is someone saying it's popular, it doesn't have to be actual sales figures, just articles from reliable sources talking about the popularity. I think we can make this into a very good article by polishing it up. I think we might add a small section about the difference between european and american chambers for example, since it definitely exists. Then we can work on the 9.3 x 64 article. Arthurrh 17:06, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

CIP dimensions (in metric values) can be extracted from official CIP cartridge and chambering drawings. Since you have to pay for that information and the fact that CIP information is copyrighted you will have to do with the technical dimension overview drawing in the article. It also occurred to me that in Wikipedia lots of European cartridges are non CIP conform termed. CIP terms cartridges of European origin as (lands bore diameter) x (case length) (other stuff) leading to CIP cartridge names like 6.5 x 55 SE, 7 x 64, 6.5 x 65 RWS, 8 x 57 IS, 6.5 x 47 Lapua, etc. This observation might lead to nasty reactions, so I do not feel called upon to correct this.

At http://www.wildundhund.de/r30/vc_content/bilder/firma438/Archiv_2005/052_057_patronenportrait_0605.pdf I just found an elaborate reference source on the 7 x 64 in German. It even states that until the late 1970-ties the 7 x 64 was the favourite bolt action rifle calibre in Germany. After that the .30-06 Springfield took over the number one position in Germany. In France (ban on (ex) military cartridges) the 7 x 64 is still the number one cartridge according to the “Wild und Hund” (Game and Hound – German hunting magazine) article. Francis Flinch 07:23, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Wilhelm Brenneke

In addition, do you have enough background information on Wilhelm Brenneke to start working on an article? I'd be happy to help, but don't currently have a lot of info. I also don't think there is an article on Brenneke Gmbh. I do speak German if necessary to help decipher documents. I'm a bit rusty, but can plow my way through. And have you thought about joining the Wikipedia Firearms Project? You might enjoy it. There is a list of things that need to be done. Arthurrh 17:08, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

Google for "Wilhelm Brenneke" and short stories on the life and works of him (he also invented several bullet types) can be found on the internet in several languages. At http://www.lima-wiederladetechnik.de/Patronen/8x64S.htm a nice picture of Mr. Brennneke and his 8 x 64 S cartridge design (that Brenneke GmbH obviously tries to revive in Germany as an intermediate between the old German military 8 x 57 IS (commercially important) and 8 x 68 S (the only serious European alternative to the US .300, 8 mm and .338 magnums I am aware of) can be found. At http://www.brenneke.de/pdf/Imageprospekt_brenneke.pdf you find a Brenneke GmbH brochure in German/English/French. Francis Flinch 07:25, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Removed "Brenneke" from the page name

Though being a Brenneke design, there never was or is no 7 x 64 mm Brenneke. CIP only knows a 7 x 64 without any further additions. The source for this confusion lies in the fact that Mr. Brenneke got the honor of the official addition of his name for designing the 6.5 x 64 Brenneke and 9.3 x 64 Brenneke cartridges. Things like this make cartridge nomenclature rather complicated, since it does not follow strictly logical rules. Francis Flinch (talk) 19:39, 26 November 2007 (UTC)