Talk:7th Muslim Brigade

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Articles for deletion This article was nominated for deletion on 11 December 2007. The result of the discussion was no consensus.
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[edit] Sources

All the sources throughout the article are from the same site (balkanpeace)..but anyways:

They attained Bosnian citizenship, and are now living in several villages throughout Bosnia, where life is organized after the Islamic laws.

This is what I have a problem with, on what grounds do you write this? I don't know much about the rest of the article, I suppose it could have happened that Arab fighters were in Bosnia, but come on, both the surrounding christian countries and NATO have a desire to play this up, so please prove it a bit more.. Dan Carkner 01:17, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

Done. Fisenko 01:27, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

I read the sources. They actually don't support the thesis anon wrote. He just keeps putting the copy/paste text, without improving article, so some parts are duplicated in the article like Amir Kubura's verdict. He must distinguish that 7th Muslim Brigade was a brigade, unlike El-Mudzahid unit which was an independent squad of volunteers. It is writen even in his own source at the end: Its soldiers worked closely with mujahideen - unit of Muslim fighters from Islamic countries who were prepared to conduct a jihad, or holy war, in Bosnia.. Regarding "balkanpeace" source, it is Serb lobby source, which supports Slobodan Milošević nationalistic regime, full of nonsenses and contradictions. I think we should just use relevant ICTY or ICJ sources and official judgements, not yellow papers. Emir Arven 15:43, 10 March 2007 (UTC)
From the 1997 US Senate report: http://www.senate.gov/~rpc/releases/1997/iran.htm
The Islamization of the Bosnian Army
In cooperation with the foreign Islamic presence, the Izetbegovic regime has revamped its security and military apparatus to reflect its Islamic revolutionary outlook, including the creation of mujahedin units throughout the army; some members of these units have assumed the guise of a shaheed (a "martyr," the Arabic term commonly used to describe suicide bombers), marked by their white garb, representing a shroud. While these units include foreign fighters naturalized in Bosnia, most of the personnel are now Bosnian Muslims trained and indoctrinated by Iranian and other foreign militants -- which also makes it easier for the Clinton Administration to minimize the mujahedin threat, because few of them are "foreigners."
Prior to 1996, there were three principal mujahedin units in the Bosnian army, the first two of which are headquartered in the American IFOR/SFOR zone: (1) the 7th Muslim Liberation Brigade of the 3rd Corps, headquartered in Zenica; (2) the 9th Muslim Liberation Brigade of the 2nd Corps, headquartered in Travnik (the 2nd Corps is based in Tuzla); and (3) the 4th Muslim Liberation Brigade of the 4th Corps, headquartered in Konjic (in the French zone). [Bodansky, Some Call It Peace, page 40] Particularly ominous, many members of these units have donned the guise of martyrs, indicating their willingness to sacrifice themselves in the cause of Islam. Commenting on an appearance of soldiers from the 7th Liberation Brigade, in Zenica in December 1995, Bodansky writes: "Many of the fighters . . . were dressed in white coveralls over their uniforms. Officially, these were 'white winter camouflage,' but the green headbands [bearing Koranic verses] these warriors were wearing left no doubt that these were actually Shaheeds' shrouds." [Some Call It Peace, page 12] The same demonstration was staged before the admiring Iranian ambassador and President Izetbegovic in September 1996, when white winter garb could only be symbolic, not functional. [NYT, 9/2/96] By June 1996, ten more mujahedin brigades had been established, along with numerous smaller "special units" dedicated to covert and terrorist operations; while foreigners are present in all of these units, most of the soldiers are now native Bosnian Muslims. [Some Call It Peace, pages 42-46]
In addition to these units, there exists another group known as the Handzar ("dagger" or "scimitar") Division, described by Bodansky as a "praetorian guard" for President Izetbegovic. "Up to 6000-strong, the Handzar division glories in a fascist culture. They see themselves as the heirs of the SS Handzar division, formed by Bosnian Muslims in 1943 to fight for the Nazis. Their spiritual model was Mohammed Amin al-Husseini, the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem who sided with Hitler. According to UN officers, surprisingly few of those in charge of the Handzars . . . seem to speak good Serbo-Croatian. 'Many of them are Albanian, whether from Kosovo [the Serb province where Albanians are the majority] or from Albania itself.' They are trained and led by veterans from Afghanistan and Pakistan, say UN sources." ["Albanians and Afghans fight for the heirs to Bosnia's SS past," (London) Daily Telegraph, 12/29/93, bracketed text in original]
217.134.234.26 00:34, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

The word 'Shahid' does not mean 'suicide bomber' nor has it ever meant that nor it it 'commonly used to describe such people (other thatn by those who have no knowledge of what the word means (which I assume includes yourself) All Muslims are buried in a white shroud (again, what on earth are you talking about???) If you intend to engage in discussion then have the common decency to use correct terminology.

Hi, the US Senate press release on the connection between Bosnia and the Mujahideen does have some information about the 7th Muslim Brigade. It has also been reprinted in the website of the Canadian organization Global Research. A good additional, though primary, source is the ICTY verdict in the Amir Kubura case, which has a section on the 7th Muslim Brigade. These could be used to improve the article.Osli73 (talk) 11:12, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Edit War

This seems to be going back and forth between different users without any resolution. Maybe we can come to some kind of compromise..? Or ask for outside comment? Dan Carkner 00:20, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Contradict sources

The first source in the version which replaced the old one by Methodije doesn't prove the thesis that Arab volonteers were a core of the brigade. The third source presented by Methodije in his version disproves his first source because it says that Mujahid according to ICTY conclusion were not part of the brigade: Moreover, a close analysis of the possible links between the Mujahedin and the 7th Brigade fails to establish beyond reasonable doubt that the Mujahedin were under the effective control of the 7th Brigade command. Finally Methodije replaced the whole version of the article and removed the cause of Arab arival in Bosnia. They came after brutal massacres commited by Serbs in Eastern Bosnia against Bosnian Muslim population. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 85.158.35.210 (talk) 16:35, 15 May 2007 (UTC).

Read senate report above. Even this ICTY's whitewashing doesn't show what you say: no effective control, but they were still formally a part of it. The "cause of Arab arival" being mass rapes and death camps is hopelesly out of touch with reality: no such things happened. Nikola 05:06, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

I read senate report. Nothing there about the unit. They were not formally part of the brigade. Just in your dreams. I also provided the second source which proves it, in the introduction of the article. First read it, then comment. Regarding mass crimes against humanity committed by Serb forces, they are proven in different courtes, not just in international but also in Serbian courte. Just in ICTY there are 160 Serbs. In other courtes all over the world there are around 1000 Serbs accussed or convicted of war crimes. Serbia is the only country in the world which violated Genocide Convention. Serb army and police are the only instutions of an ethnic group which committed genocide which was proven by the courte. And you are saying crimes didn't happen?! Well pal, this is not Serbian parlament. Get real. Information I provided were sourced. So your removal was an act of vandalism, your denial of hundreds of verdicts is typical for people who are afraid to accept the truth which is horrible and proven by different kind of courtes all over the world.

As one note of advice to our anonymous user, please be aware of the content forking guideline. This article should only be about the 7th brigade. If you have a point to make about the genocides, and how sides were differently treated after the war, take it to Talk:Bosnian Genocide. Someguy1221 22:12, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

Here is the quote you are asking for (this is Courte conclusion), and not mine source but the source presented by other side:

  • The evidence shows that foreign volunteers arrived in central Bosnia in the second half of 1992 with the aim of helping their "Muslim brothers" against the Serbian aggressors. Mostly they came from North Africa, the Near East and the Middle East. The foreign volunteers differed considerably from the local population, not only because of their physical appearance and the language they spoke, but also because of their fighting methods. Initially, the foreign volunteers gave food and other basic necessities to the local Muslim population. Once hostilities broke out between the Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina and the HVO (Croat forces), they also participated in battles against the HVO alongside Army of BiH units.

I fail see how this justifies any of your changes. And where does this specifically to the 7th brigade? And where does it mention that they were sent because of genocidal actions? Someguy1221 22:17, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

Because you didn't read the article. You should first read it, then comment. The previous version, has nothing to do with the 7th brigade, because it confused it with the arab volunteers which are not the same thing. That version is completely false, unlike this, which is based on Courte decision. Arab volunteers were not sent, they came according to the courte, because of serb agression. Later ICJ concluded that those serb actions were act of genocide.

Please also be aware that synthesis of multiple sources into a single idea is also OR. Someguy1221 22:26, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

I am aware of that, but this is not the case. I even use the sources of the other side (I just included one in the article). The problem is that they didn't even read their sources, which are contradict, and as I said above, the 3rd source, disproves the 2nd etc. But according to WP:RS, all my sources are reliable unlike the other side sources, because I use official courte decisions. My right is to edit as anon user, but that doesn't mean that I am POV or biased or vandal. I asked them so many times to discuss here, but some people don't want to accept courte decisions. I ask you to help me improve the article, as I can see you are reasonable person. Please read the article, and propose you suggestions then we will together improve this.

I read the article, and I still don't see a justification for your claimed reasons for the muslim aid to arive. I also still don't see a justification for your seeming POV comparison of how different sides were treated after the war. Someguy1221 22:39, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Section: Background

Appears to be biased. Rapes, mass murders etc were committed by all sides. This section should be written from a neutral stand point.

[edit] Bosnian Mujahideen redirects here incorrectly?

Why does Bosnian Mujahideen redirect to 7th Muslim Brigade? This sounds wrong. From the article:

It was often misinterpreted by Serb and Croat media, which confused it with the squad of Arab volunteers known as El-Mudžahid - foreign fighters from various Islamic countries that fought during the 1992-95 Bosnian War. The 7th brigade had over 1,000 local soldiers and was a part of the 3rd corps of the Bosnian Army. The El-Mudžahid was an independent detachment.[1]

So what's going on here? -- KarlHallowell (talk) 16:04, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

It obviously a pov-dispute. I'm seeking full protection on the other article during the mediation. --Ronz (talk) 21:29, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Problems with this article

Here is a list of issue I have with the article which I feel need to be adressed. Until they are, I believe the POV and SOURCE tags need to remain:

  1. Introduction statement that "It was often misinterpreted by Serb and Croat media, which confused it with the squad of Arab volunteers known as El-Mudžahid - foreign fighters from various Islamic countries that fought during the 1992-95 Bosnian War." is not only a bit odd given that the El Mujahed were part of brigade, it is also not sourced. The ICTY source refers to the situation before the El Mujahed were formed in 1993. Either the author misunderstands or misrepresents the source.
  1. Background statement that "Bosnia-Herzegovina received humanitarian aid from Islamic countries as well as from the West, because of intensive and widespread killing, mass rapes, death camps, ethnic cleansing committed by Serb and, to a lesser extent, Croat forces. The main targets were Bosnian Muslim civilians. The world's highest court concluded that these crimes, committed during the 1992 -95 war, were crimes against humanity and genocide (dolus specialis) regarding Srebrenica region according to the Genocide Convention" is equally POV for an article about the 7th Brigade. Clearly the author is using the ICTY source to push a larger POV agenda about the nature of the Bosnian war (WP:COATRACK). Likewise, starting the next paragraph with "Following such massacres" followed by "to help the Bosnian Army protect the Bosnian Muslim civilian population" are equally POV as it tries to portray the cause for the arrival of the volunteers as being massacres of Bosniak civilians - which is a subjective analysis and should be portrayed as such.
  2. Numbers of Mujahideen is misrepresented, claiming that they were "from around 300 to 1,500" while many sources cite 4,000 or (according to a recent Sky News documentary, link available on the Bosnian Mujahideen talk page) as many as 6,000. Please see the Bosnian Mujahideen article for sources.
  1. Popularity: the author goes on to claim that "They [the mujahideen] quickly attracted heavy criticism, who considered their presence to be evidence of violent Islamic fundamentalism at the heart of Europe. However, the foreign volunteers became unpopular even with many of the Bosniak population, because the Bosnian army had thousands of troops and had no need for more soldiers, but for arms". Not only is this strange for an article supposedly about the Muslim 7th Brigade, it is also not sourced. Finally, considering that they were integrated into the Bosnian govt. army and later married local Bosnian Muslim women, they cannot have been too unpopular. At the very least, it is a biased POV statement.
  2. Inappropriate source: the claim that "According to general Stjepan Šiber, the highest ranking ethnic Croat in Bosnian Army, the key role in foreign volunteers arrival was played by Franjo Tuđman and Croatian counter-intelligence underground with the aim to justify involvment of Croatia in Bosnian War and mass crimes committed by Croat forces. Although Izetbegović regarded them as symbolically valuable as a sign of the Muslim world's support for Bosnia, they appear to have made little military difference and became a major political liability" is sourced to a self-published 'analysis' on a Bosniak Islamist/nationalist webpage (see below). It is not an appropriate source.
  3. Controversy: this section is started by stating that "Although Serb and Croat media created much controversy about alleged war crimes committed by the squad, no indictment was issued by ICTY against any of these foreign volunteers." Although correct, it is POV of the author not to mention that several commanders in the Bosnian army (ABiH) have been indicted and on two occasions found guilty, of war crimes conducted by the Bosnian Mujahideen under their control/influence.
  1. Predrag Matvejević: how is 'analysis' of an obscure "modern prosaist" self-published on a nationalist/Islamist website relevant here? It's completely inappropriate.
  1. Jackie Arklöv: how is the conviction of a Swedish neo-nazi who fought for the Croatian forces relevant to either the 7th Muslim Brigade or to the Bosnian Mujahideen?
  2. Serb propaganda: the article then dives into a long text about how Serb propaganda and how it used terms like "mujahideen" and accusations of baby killing to whip up hatred. Not only is there no source for this (though I'm sure there could be) but how is it relevant for the article on the 7th Muslim Brigade?

The entire article is obviously grossly POV, poorly or not sourced at all and, most important, not really about the "7th Muslim Brigade". I strike that it be delted. If it to remain, it would have to be totally rewritten to actually focus on the 7th Muslim Brigade. Preferably by another author.Osli73 (talk) 16:11, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

When you talk about Predrag Matvejevic, please remain civil. Predrag Matvejevic is not a Muslim, nor his article is on the nationalist/islamist website. His father is a Russian, and his mother Croatian. He is well known Italian prosaist. Maybe you shouldn't use Serb propaganda when insulting other people, the war is over, Kosovo is de facto independent, Bosnia is independent, Montenegro is independent, Croatia and Slovenia are independent, so your effort is useless. For more information about Predrag Matvejevic read this Italian web site: [1]: Predrag Matvejevic è presidente del Comitato Internazionale della Fondazione Laboratorio Mediterraneo, vice presidente dell'Associazione mondiale degli scrittori P.E.N. Club e membro fondatore dell'Associazione Sarajevo a Parigi e a Roma. Regarding the numbers, you are wrong. And your claim is false again as usual. Sky News source is not documentary, it is an 8 minute report made after the Bosnian war (so the information is pretty old), not supported by the evidence presented in the ICTY. The most recent information (few months ago) from the ICTY says there were between 300 and 1,500 volunteers. Read the ICTY sources. So the article is very relaible based on WP:RS. The only problem here for you is it contains Serb propaganda efforts about foreign volunteers (verified by the International court), and that is the reason you are trying to delete some other articles, but hey ICTY is an Internationa court, not some news report. The Dragon of Bosnia (talk) 15:03, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

Dragon, I still don't feel that you have adressed the issues at hand here:

  1. Intro.: you still state that the El Mujahed were not part of the brigade when in fact, between 1993-1995, they were. The icty court document you're sourcing from refers to the period before they became a formal part of the 7th. That needs to be rectified.
  2. Background: this text remain a violation of WP:NPOV by using the text to expound on the nature of the Bosnian War (WP:COATRACK). It needs to be deleted.
  3. Numbers: clearly there are different estimates. If the article is to quote a range it should quote the different estimates which exist from credible sources. The Sky News report is specifically about the Bosnian Mujahideen so should be considered credible enough. By not quoting the entire range you are cherry picking. The full range of estimates needs to be included.
  4. Popularity: this paragraph remains. It is out of place (considering the article is on the 7th, not the Bosnian Mujahideen), unsourced and POV. It needs to be deleted.
  5. Inappropriate source: I never claimed Predrag Matvejevic was a nationalist/Islamist/Bosniak, I did however, point out that the source is a self-published on a Bosniak nationalist/Islamist website. If, as you state, he is a member of the Italian PEN (ie an author/publicist) I cannot see that his views have any validity. This source and statement needs to be deleted.
  6. Controversy: this is clearly a POV choice of facts. This needs to be replaced with war crimes indictment of commanders of the 7th.
  7. Jackie Arklöv: this is completeley irrelevant and needs to be deleted.
  8. Serb propaganda: completely irrelevant to this article. Needs to be deleted.

Clearly, you have not adressed any of the issues I raised about the article. This is why I insist on maintaing the POV tag (and think the article deserves to be deleted or completely rewritten, though we'll see about that later). However, start adressing these issues in a serious way, and the article has potential.Osli73 (talk) 16:13, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

Osli73,

  1. Intro is fine. It can be improved with additional information, but the information regarding different perception of 7th Muslim Brigade within Serb/Croat (nationalistic) media is very valuable. El-Mudzahid was an independent unit which cooperated with 7th Muslim Brigade, and the bond between the two is still to be verified in Delic trial.
  1. Background section is very important because it explains the cause of the foreign soldiers arrival in Bosnia: (ICTY conclusion) The evidence shows that foreign volunteers arrived in central Bosnia in the second half of 1992 with the aim of helping their Muslim brothers against the Serbian aggressors. So you cannot talk about them without mentioning the cause of their arrival. They came after Serbs committed so many war crimes on civilians, raped so many women, created so many concentration camps, and besieged so many towns.
  1. Numbers: When you talk about this precise information, there is a Wikipedia rule about verification I quoted so often. Read it again. There are verifiable sources (such as court decisions), and those which are not (such as newspaper stories).
  1. The rest of your claims is nonsense. The propaganda section is very importan because Serbs created so many fabrication it became a certain phenomenon, not just about this topic, also about Markale massacres, Srebrenica genocide, Prijedor massacres etc. Predrag Matvejevic tried to research Serb propaganda efforts so the source is very good. Deletion of such source is vandalism.

Regards. The Dragon of Bosnia (talk) 08:02, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

DoB,

  1. Intro.: the Bosnian Mujahideen were officially part of the 7th during the period 1993-1995. That is not contested by any of the sources. You are misrepresenting or not understanding the sources.
  2. Background: first of all, you're talking about the Bosnian Mujahideen, not the 7th. Second, you're using this to present an general view on the nature of the Bosnian War (WP:COATRACK). Third, it is grossly WP:POV.
  3. Numbers: the numbers I'm citing are verifiable/sourced. Not including them is POV.
  4. Other issues: you are obviously unable to present any answers to my claims here.

I will reinsert the tags as they are appropriate. Please also see the comments on the Afd page.Osli73 (talk) 10:12, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

  • They were not part of 7th Muslim Brigade, because Bosnian Mujahideen didn't exist. El Mudzahid was an independent company.
  • I am not talking about Bosnian Mujahideen. It is the term fabricated by yourself.
  • Forums, blogs and web sites are not verifiable sources per WP:RS.

Regards. The Dragon of Bosnia (talk) 14:40, 21 December 2007 (UTC)