Talk:7.62x54mmR

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Contents 1 Russian vs. Rimmed 2 Questions.... 3 Article renaming 4 Specifications question

[edit] Russian vs. Rimmed

Very few people refer to it as the 7.62 "Rimmed". [1]CynicalMe 19:46, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

Really? I've only rarely encountered the "Russian" title. It's also incorrect. Saying 7.62 "Russian" is misleading. It could refer to 7.62x39mm or 7.62x25mm Tokarev. Basically, the Russians named it x54R for a reason and that reason isn't national identity. My revision stands. El Jorge 20:45, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

Well, I've never encountered the "Rimmed" expression. I agree that it stands for "rimmed", I never said that it stood for Russian. What I mean is that the round itself is referred to as the 7.62 Russian. The x39 M43 round is called the 7.62 Soviet, so the potential for confusion is limited. If we can come to some compromise in the language for the article, I think we could both be satisfied. CynicalMe 20:39, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

Agreed. :) No hard feelings? El Jorge 20:45, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

Ok, I've made some changes. Let me know what you think. CynicalMe 21:08, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

I approve heartily. El Jorge 01:14, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Questions....

Neat website, surfed in from another site and had a question/correction. What is "super-incendiary"? Never heard of that one before.

Also bullets 2 and 3 are not armor piercing, just plain ball. The Czech ammo is "light" ball (silver or no color tip) and the Hungarian is "heavy" ball (can be either yellow or yellow/silver tip). The 2d from the right round doesn't look Yugoslav, it looks more like Bulgarian. Any chance the headstamp is 10 over 53? If so it's Bulgarian.Jeremy2171 01:59, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

Actually, they are armor piercing, as they have a steel core. I took the picture, so I have verified this. I will check the headstamp on the other one though. You could be right about that one.CynicalMe 02:02, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

Steel core does not = AP. Steel was used instead of lead as it was often cheaper than lead. The steel used in the "ball" ammo is a mild steel and has minimal advantages over lead cored ammo. Actual "hardened" steel core "AP" ammo will go through hardened armor test plate like a hot knife through butter while regular steel core will not.

I use the steel insert from a 50cal "AP" round as a center punch and the tip is still sharp....after about 10 years of hammering on it. I can easily deform the steel insert from Czech ammo with a hammer. Jeremy2171

Oh yeah, what was the "Super-Incendiary"? Jeremy2171 02:36, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

Well, steel-core is what is commonly used to define armor-piercing. The fact that some types of steel are more suited is not at issue. Also, super-incendiary is the Raufus ammunition. CynicalMe 23:26, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

This comment displays a lack of knowledge of metallurgy. Not all steels are created equal. As a matter of fact, new steels are being created all the time. Most steels used in automobiles today, for example, did not exist 10 years ago. Soft steel is just that...soft. Hardened steels are a different kettle of fish entirely. If you don't believe me, try to drill a hole in the steel receiver of an M1903A3 Springfield sometime using standard drills! Good luck!!! The use of soft steel cores for bullets is a cost saving measure and not an attempt at manufacturing armor piercing bullets.--72.35.103.49 08:59, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

Have you overlooked the Explosive round called the "PZ"? Why would the Russians use a Swedish projectile? Also there is Armor Piercing Incendiary AND API-tracer as well. The Czechs also have the short range practice bullet and there is also and E. German short range round as well. Did you check the headstamp on that one round? Jeremy2171 00:02, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Article renaming

As per the general consensus from the team at Wikiproject: Military History, it would seem that this article really ought to be named "7.62x54R", with no spaces. I thought I'd give people a chance to comment before arbitrarily changing the title, however. --Commander Zulu 07:03, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

Oppose as a waste of time and effort. What we have is just fine, well within the variation of usage for something with no universal convention. Gene Nygaard 19:48, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

How is it a waste of time? The current format is the least common of the conventions for firearm calibres, and it will take 30 seconds to have it adjusted to the most common one. --Commander Zulu 09:40, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

It's the other associated costs that are the problem. First, those who have become accustomed to making direct links will now making links through redirects. Then some other damn fool with too much time on his hands is going to go waste a whole bunch more time making those indirect links into direct links. And that's only the tip of the iceberg. That's why a certain amount of stability is a good thing. Gene Nygaard 16:35, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

The majority of people making direct links will be involved in WP:MilHist anyway, and we're pretty much in consensus that the current naming conventions are wrong anyway... I agree stability is good, but it needs to be the right kind of stability, and "But that's the way it's always been!" isn't an especially good argument, IMO.--Commander Zulu 00:31, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

I moved the page. I strongly disagree that page moves to more common conventions are a "waste of time". As for the "tip of the iceberg", I'm curious what constitutes the remaining 91% of problems caused by a sensible page move, as implied by that metaphor. -GTBacchus^(talk) 16:31, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

So... is using one space some kind of lame compromise now? I suggest it be fixed one way or the other as there are some awesome double redirects as it stands right now. Plus it's super-confusing. --Zytsef 00:04, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

No, someone moved the page back to the "old" name and I couldn't move it back to 7.62x54R for some reason; I'm going to put a request for a move on the appropriate page now. --Commander Zulu 03:47, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

• This cartridge is also called the "Mosin" officially in Russian documentation, being adopted simultaneously with the M1890 rifle. It would appear that 7.62x54mmR Mosin would the proper name for this cartridge in accordance with our standardization efforts. What's your take on this one Zulu? Koalorka (talk) 00:57, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

WP tries to go for most common usage, and in that spirit I think the current name of 7.62x54R is fine. No text I can find refers to the cartridge with the "Mosin" designator, and we don't need the "mm" either for it either. I've never seen a box of cartridges with "7.62x54mmR" on them, either- all the boxes I have seen say "7.62x54R". Similarly, when the cartridge name is spoken I've only ever heard it called "7.62x54" or "7.62x54R". All this is a long and complicated way of saying I think the Russian cartridge oages shouldn't be titled using the "mm" standardisation that's being implemented, based on common usage amongst shooters and collectors.--Commander Zulu (talk) 06:51, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

Leaving it makes me somewhat uneasy, it would not fall under any naming category, and Ordnung muss sein, Ja? as they would say in my native tongue. As much as I respect common usage among sports shooters and enthusiasts we have to keep in mind that this is an encyclopedia and we must recognize official or original names and designations. I agree the 7.62x54mmR Mosin is somewhat awkward and therefore I will seek to change the name to simply 7.62x54mmR. My Mosin is stamped this way and several published references list the caliber this way including my user manuals and Russian sources. I've also encountered this type of naming for rimmed ammunition boxes, with the "R" after the metric measurement as in AxBmmR, albeit, can't remember exactly which caliber it was I was shooting at the time. Koalorka (talk) 07:20, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

wikipedia article names usec commonest name in that language by convention. official names can

be mentioned in the text.GraemeLeggett (talk) 14:30, 25 November 2007 (UTC)z

[edit] Specifications question

In the specs, it lists the "nominal" charge to be 3960-J or approx. 2920 ft-lbs. While this is in the realm of ballistics for the 54R, what specific round was this figure established with? Some Russian Light Ball ammo [149grain, 2855fps] was pushing 3672-J or about 2708 ft-lbs. I'm not particularly trying to argue, but just wondering what the basis of this factoid was.209.114.201.30 13:57, 8 December 2006 (UTC)