Talk:7.62x25mm Tokarev

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[edit] Czech 7.62x25mm Ammunition and Vz-52 Failures

Could the poster please provide a source for the following information, preferrably as a link on the page (or as a simple reference if no URL is available)?

It is a rumor that this ammunition is not recommended to be used in other weapons besides the Cz 52 pistol. However, independent testing by numerous sources has indicated that the CZ 52 pistol is in fact dangerously prone to failure when firing Czech Tokarev ammunition due to its extremely thin barrel thickness at the point of highest gas expansion pressures. In most tests involving excessively loaded cases of 7.62x25mm ammunition, Tokarev T-33 pistols have fared much better than the CZ-52 pistol.

I have seen statements from various unverifiable sources that the Vz-52 was designed specifically to handle the 7.62x25mm "Czech load", referred to often as "M48". I have also seen statements that this load was designed for submachine guns only and shouldn't be fired from any pistol. At this point, I think it would be appropriate that at least one verifiable source be provided on this Wikipedia page before any solid statements are made either way regarding the use of Czech loads fired from any firearm, let alone the Vz-52.

There are two things I can reasonably cite as fact:

  1. This, and
  2. My own CZ52 handles the Czech-manufactured Sellier & Bellot 85 grain FMJ quite well, which is rated at 1,647 fps by S&B from the CZ52 (though independent testing (links below) has shown that this figure is exaggerated by about 100 ft/s). It has thus far digested 500 rounds of it without any sign of problems.

Thanks, Raygun 05:52, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Article renaming

--Commander Zulu 12:39, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

As per the general consensus from the team at Wikiproject: Military History, it would seem that this article really ought to be named "7.62x25", with no spaces. I'm not even sure the "TT" needs to be there, though. I can't find any reference to "7.62x25 TT" in any of my reference books. I thought I'd give people a chance to comment before arbitrarily changing the title, however. --Commander Zulu 07:03, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

Article moved. --Commander Zulu 09:45, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

I really think the mm should be included, I realize that the point symbol makes this an obvious metric measurement but it's included in every single piece of official literature I've seen. What may work for englis/US calibers isn't necessarily correct for metric calibers. Koalorka 03:31, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

FWIW, most of the print stuff I've seen tends to omit the "mm" if there's a name with the calibre as well- so, you'd have 7.62x25 Tokarev, 6.5x55 Swedish, 5.56 NATO, etc. If you didn't have the name, then you'd have the "mm". Most (if not all) boxes of ammunition that I've seen use this convention. The other thing is that if you start including the "mm", we end up with the Weights & Measures bots buggerising all the article titles to make them look like algebra equations written by someone typing v e r y slowly (7.62 x 25 mm Tokarev, for example). Simple answer: AxB (name), no "mm". I've had a look through some of my reference texts and you're right, many of them do have the "mm"- but not all of them, and even then, not always for every metric calibre (none of them mention the "mm" in relation to any of the Russian calibres except 7.62x39, and even that's called 7.62x39 Soviet in some cases). It's a tough one, but the system we have now seems to be working OK, and I'm inclined to leave well enough alone at this stage. --Commander Zulu 12:39, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Removed from Main Article

This really didn't belong in the article as it was. If someone wants to briefly summarize and include in another section at the end, that might be better. Twalls 21:11, 24 August 2007 (UTC)


In March 2000, Ted Curtis, ballistician at Accurate Arms, sent a letter to industry leaders and some consumers prior to the May 2000 published release the new higher pressure loads for the CZ52: ""7.62 X 25 Tokarev .. Due to the large number of handguns imported into the U.S. chambered for the 7-62 x 25 Tokarev Accurate Arms has developed the following load data for those shooters who wish to reload the little powerhouse. In determining the appropriate pressure limit for our load data we tested various military ammo from China, Russia, Austria Bulgaria and the Czech Republic. Commercial ammo produced by Sellier & Bellot was also tested. Based on these tests we arrived at a maximum pressure for our lad data of 42,000 C.U.P. Only the single lot of Russian ammo was significantly below this pressure averaging 31,000 C.U.P. The consistent pressures between all other types and manufactures was a welcome surprise . Indeed, the fact that Czech ammo, made for the CZ-52 pistol, produced the same pressure as that of the other countries was perhaps the biggest surprise of the whole project. This in spite of the "tribal lore" regarding this particular handgun and the ammo loaded for it claiming that shooting Czech ammo in any other firearm so chambered will causes spontaneous disassembly. The pressure data produced by the ammo tested certainly doesn't support this theory."" Since that letter and book, AA has recanted the high pressure loads for the CZ52 and now offers for free, corrected low pressure loads for the CZ52 on the AA web site.

I have removed this yet again. Twalls (talk) 08:00, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Photo. Armor piercing?

Is there anyway to confirm that the right hand cartridge in the photo is armor piercing. Sellier & Bellot sells surplus lead core FMJ in lacquered steel cases that looks identical to the pictured cartridge. Being a high velocity round 7.62x25 will pierce some levels of armor but lead cored bullets are not specifically designed to pierce armor. If no confirmation can be made I suggest the caption be changed to reflect brass vs. steel case instead of non-AP vs. AP. Nailedtooth (talk) 01:52, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Velocity Information Incorrect?

Every firearms article on Wikipedia has bullets in order from smallest grain size to largest. Then, corresponding to the size, the speed. The speed of the higher-grain rounds is always lower than the smaller (in the other articles). I don't know much about guns, but something seems wrong with the speeds. Paladin Hammer (talk) 05:05, 30 May 2008 (UTC)