User talk:71.35.161.45

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[edit] Mike Flicker

[edit] 15 April 2008

Hi zz,

Hi pdfpdf,

I am not so much upset as frustrated. Sorry, I will try to be more clear.

I'm afraid you didn't succeed; I'm very confused by some of your reply.
Also, I left you a number of questions - you answered very few of them.

I don't know if you took a look at the pictures and the video clip.

I did.

My point is this; the young Michael Fisher photo (circa 1967), the Michael Fisher video clip (1978) and the adult photo of Mike Flicker (present day) are all the same man.

Yes, you've said that a number of times. I'm not sure why you're mentioning it yet again. (i.e. I'm confused.)

My only point about the Whiteheart picture was to try to pin down the date of the photo and to show you that I am familiar with the city and the circumstances that shaped Heart during their early days.

I'm not sure why you are mentioning this.

Also, you have not commented on the interview with Nancy Wilson.

I presume you're referring to this one: http://www.believermag.com/issues/200708/?read=interview_wilson ? I don't have any comments. It says what you said it does.

Michael Fisher moved to Los Angeles to get into the music business. As for why he did it at age 16, you would need to ask him.

Thread 1:
Born 1952, so that would be 1968?
Actually, the Flicker web site suggests/implies the Zoo was formed before then, so lets say 1967?
So 1952-66 in Seattle, 1967-70 in LA, 1971-77 in Vancouver?
Thread 2:
It just doesn't seem likely that a 15/16 year-old in High School, playing in a band with his brother, would move to LA. What would the school leaving age have been in 1967? Various writings suggest/imply that the Fishers were a close family - at age 15/16, would he want to leave a close family? Moving from Seattle to LA at age 15/16 is a big step. What would his parents have had to say? Etc. etc. No, none of that is definitive, nor does it rule it out, but as I said, it just doesn't seem likely.
Thread 3:
Why would he change his name from Fisher to Flicker at age 15/16?
Thread 4:
The Nancy Wilson interview says:
Michael didn’t enlist when his number came up, so the Army broke in to his house late at night to get him—which was illegal, as we found out later. Luckily, he jumped out the window and ran before they could get him. He hitchhiked his way up to Vancouver and settled there.
The implication is that at age 18 he was Mike Fisher and living in Seattle.
Alternatives are:
  • Nancy's little annecdote is a fabrication. (Entirely possible!)
  • The incident happened to Flicker in LA. However, how did the US Army know that Fisher, the draft evader from Seattle, was living in LA? And hitching from LA to Vancouver, when the US Army are looking for you, would be quite a feat.
Thread 5:
What years were The Army and White Heart active?
What years was Fisher a member of these bands, and what were his roles?
However, what you say below DOES support the idea, so I guess it could have happened. But I would like to see some independent supporting evidence which explains what Fisher was doing from 1967-70.

Personally, I think it was his ambition. It may be hard for some to believe, with all the attention paid to the rock music scene in Seattle during the 90's, but in the 60's and 70's and even the 80's the local music scene was VERY PRIMITIVE compared to other big west coast cities like LA and San Francisco. The music scene in Vancouver BC was even more pathetic than Seattle, that is, at least until the early 70's. Anyone with real talent and ambition had to leave Seattle to have a chance of making it big. The list of those who left town is huge!

The move to Vancouver BC happened at a different time and for a different reason. MF was evading the draft.

Yes. Previously acknowledged and agreed.

It just so happened that he was of draft age in 1971, and that the Canadian music business was booming at the same time due to the change in content rules. Tremendous luck! Did I confuse you about this?

No.

To me it sounds as if you keep confusing the move to LA with the move to Vancouver.

Does it? I'm not confused about that. I'm not sure how/why you came to that conclusion.

I was hoping you would fix the problem of the confusing footnote because the phrase "moving to LA at age 16 to escape the draft" is just so ridiculous that I laughed out loud. I hope you didn't intend that to be taken seriously! No one would ever have moved INSIDE the U.S. to escape the draft BEFORE THEY WERE OF DRAFT AGE!

Agreed. I think I put there that which I thought you were saying, and the grammar got garbled. i.e. I thought you were saying Fisher changed his name to avoid detection by the US Army. It didn't make any sense to me, but a 15-year-old moving to LA and changing his name doesn't make any sense to me either. (If I get time, I'll change it.)

You support the band's claims that MF was in Seattle in the early 70's

a) No I don't. b) Why do you say that? (i.e. I'm confused.)

even though we also know he was actually evading the draft in Vancouver BC. Why do you believe those claims?

I haven't seen any such claims; I don't know what you're referring to.

The fact that Nancy Wilson claims he sneeked back across the border is the only believable bit of evidence that he spent ANY time in Seattle during those years at all. Yes, I think this point is ABSOLUTELY relevant!

Which point is absolutely relevant to what? (You've lost me.)

It proves my point that many of the bands claims just are not credible.

As I said, I haven't seen any such claims, so I can't comment.

The band members have participated in an elaborate ruse to hide Mike Flicker's real identity for years! I think Ann in particular is either very confused sometimes, or deliberately trying to obfuscate the facts. In one video clip currently on Youtube she even claims the group is from Canada!! Very strange, particularly since the audience she was performing for was in Pullman, Washington on her side of the border. Why would she tell an audience from her own state that she not American, but Canadian??? Bizarre!!! Maybe it was just the drugs.

I have no idea. I think I'll quote you on this one: "As for why she did it, you would need to ask her."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0uvr3dmptvg Anyway, it is a great performance, be sure to check it out!!! Also, note at the end of the clip Mike Fisher is credited as the band's road manager. This is part of a one hour live concert produced by KWSU television in 1976.

Yes, within a fixed set of titles, they seem to be pretty random about which title they use for Mike Fisher at any given time!

I think that MF is a man of many many talents. Not only is he a good musician, but a skilled recording engineer, producer and businessman.

So it would seem. (And a prolific producer of children too - I think he has 10 at last count.)

I don't doubt for a minute that he has both skills on guitar, drums, and perhaps other instruments too.

Don't know. As I've said many times, I've not seen any evidence of him playing music. (More on that below.)

I really don't understand why you seem to keep worrying about which instruments he plays.

Because, As I've said many times, I've not seen any evidence of him playing music.

The information from the band about his guitar playing is just hearsay anyway.

I haven't seen any evidence of that, either. By the looks of it, I never will!!

I can provide more evidence of Fisher playing drums on Flicker recordings. But the only reason I bothered to is because you kept demanding it.

That's a strangely worded response. If I "kept demanding it" it was because you said there was lots of evidence on imdb, so I looked, but I didn't find any. And you hadn't supplied any.

I already provided 2 examples of Michael Fisher playing drums.

You provided the information AFTER "I kept demanding it", not before.

Did you look at it yet?

Yes, I have looked at it.

MF saw the huge potential in the Canadian music business at a time when few others did. He found top quality used studio gear in LA for very little money and moved it to Vancouver. He build a very successful recording studio which had a sound that closely rivaled the best in LA, but at much lower hourly rates. At that time the Canadian dollar was worth much less than the U.S. dollar, which made recording in Canada an even better value for American musicians. Recordings made in Canada get preferential treatment on Canadian radio and television. MF knew that he could create hits in Canada and then try to duplicate the same success across the border, though this did not work every time. MF persuaded investors to back his recording studio and record company ventures in the music business. That alone is a huge achievement. Not only that, but he made some really good records that turned into hits! He had ambition even from a very young age. He certainly would not let a little thing like the draft get in his way. I think that his type of talent is very rare.

BTW, I don't have the Behind the Music episode. I would like to get a copy also. zz97.113.12.219 (talk) 00:15, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Questions you haven't answered yet

Email

Hello pdfpdf,
I tried to send you an e-mail a few weeks ago, but I never got any confirmation that you received it.

Oh. That's annoying. Either, I never got it, or I didn't notice that I got it.
How about sending another - call it "email test" and then post a message here saying you sent it?
I'll keep an eye open for it, and will respond here when I receive it.
OK? Pdfpdf (talk) 15:21, 14 April 2008 (UTC)
Fisher playing drums in The Army and/or White Heart

There IS evidence that Michael Fisher (brother of Roger) played drums in "The Army" and "Whiteheart." I have seen early promotional pictures of the group from this era on Heart related fan sites. Sorry, I don't have the web addresses now, will try to find them again.

Yes please. Pdfpdf (talk) 15:21, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Other stuff

I would never have picked the lady as Ann!

I think that if you look at her facial features the lady in the 1973 picture looks A LOT like Ann, just with different hair.

Oh yes, knowing it was Ann, it's easy to see the resemblance. What I was trying to say is, if someone randomly handed me the picture and asked, "Who's the lady", I would never have picked the lady as Ann.

[edit] New questions

Is there any evidence of what Mike Fisher was doing 1967-71, or does he just disappear off the face of the earth?
Why did he change his name in LA?
Why is there still a Mike Flicker in LA, as well as a Mike Fisher with 10 kids? i.e. Why does MF continue to support two identities some 30 years after the amnesty?

Cheers, Pdfpdf (talk) 14:45, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] "Reference" material

Here is an interview with Nancy Wilson where she talks about MF's draft evasion. Interesting how after talking about Fisher, she later starts talking about Flicker as if he just appears out of nowhere: http://www.believermag.com/issues/200708/?read=interview_wilson

Some of the many Mike Flicker productions that also credit Michael Fisher on percussion:

More later, zz97.113.12.219 (talk) 21:51, 12 April 2008 (UTC)

Yes please. Pdfpdf (talk) 15:21, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

Rare 1978 Heart backstage video from "The Midnight Special." This might be your only chance to see vintage video of Michael Fisher. http://youtube.com/watch?v=35WOxH8eQu0 zz97.113.12.219 (talk) 23:33, 12 April 2008 (UTC)

Cool. Thanks. Pdfpdf (talk) 15:21, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

Here is an early picture of "Whiteheart" [Is this http://phoenixheart.org/heart/whiteheart.JPG the picture you're refering to?] with the Fisher brothers on the left, before the either of the Wilson sisters joined the group. The 4 young men in the photo are Roger Fisher, Michael Fisher, (unknown), and Steve Fossen.

Cool. Thanks. Pdfpdf (talk) 15:21, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

For my future reference:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0uvr3dmptvg
http://phoenixheart.org/heart/army.jpg - The Army
http://phoenixheart.org/heart/heart73.JPG - Heart '73
http://phoenixheart.org/pages/hrtearly.jpg - Early Heart
http://phoenixheart.org/pages/526.jpg - Roger Fisher
http://phoenixheart.org/hchives.html

[edit] more old news and unanswered questions

If Fisher was born in 1952, then he was 16 in 1968, and 18 in 1970.
There is evidence he moved to Vancouver in 1974.
What evidence is there that he moved anywhere before 1974?
Why would he have moved to LA before 1968?
Pdfpdf (talk) 05:49, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Related WP pages

[edit] Mike Fisher - verified/verifiable facts

OK. So, what do we know and can verify?

  • From the 1976 Canadian 12" vinyl release of Dreamboat Annie:
    • Mike Fisher is not mentioned as a band member of Heart
    • Major credits are: "Ann Wilson, Nancy Wilson, with Steve Fossen, Roger Fisher, Produced by Mike Flicker"
    • There are no song-writing credits or "musician credits" for Mike Fisher
    • However, there is one mention, on the record sleeve: "Special Direction: Mike Fisher"
    • (Mike Flicker credits include: Magic Man, percussion; Dreamboat Annie (Reprise), Tympani; Album Produced by Mike Flicker; Arrangements by Heart and Mike Flicker; Engineering, Mike Flicker and Rolf Hennemann)

Pdfpdf (talk) 09:30, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] What do we think we know

Fisher:

  • Fisher born 1952 - Source?
  • Fisher member of The Army 1963 (aged 11?) - Source?

Flicker:

Pdfpdf (talk) 16:15, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Things to resolve

  • Was Fisher ever a member of Heart?
  • What did Fisher do after 1979?
  • Where does Fisher live now?
  • What did Flicker do between birth and 1967?(when "Chocolate Mousse" was released)
  • Where does Flicker live now?

Pdfpdf (talk) 16:15, 29 March 2008 (UTC)