User talk:7&6=thirteen

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Thank-you again, for being so helpful. I was speaking of certain Port Huron residents seeming to feel threatened. I can't find that Wiki Michigan project you mentioned, could you send me a link? Mphmi (talk) 16:03, 11 March 2008 (UTC)


Thank-you, Stan. I don't know if I'm posting this in the right place. This site is very confusing to me. Anyway, about my link-- I don't think Zygnoda will be happy no matter what I put for a description.

Wikipedia is clearly not against commercial content. I mean, there's a page for everything under the sun. A Myspace page, for example. Look at Frankenmuth's page -- in the External Links there, there's links for Tiffany's Food and Spirits, Bavarian Inn, frankenmuth-hotels.com -- all commercial links, but no one's complaining about them. Even so-called non-profit businesses still make money, so really, what is this about? Why do people around here seem to feel so threatened by my site? (I could give other examples.) ~Jenny —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mphmi (talk • contribs) 14:32, 11 March 2008 (UTC)


Plainly, your deletion of the Arts and Crafts Movement was wrong. You also have a different perspective as to which potters are not notable. Would suggest that the individual potteries be put into a different category, thereby not 'cluttering' the internal links (See alsos), while maintaining these. You may not realize, for example, the import of Pewabic Pottery. Your deletion was at the very least parochial and ill-advised. 7&6=thirteen 18:45, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

Hello 7&6=thirteen. It is ironic that you suggest I was parochial as to avoid this was a significant part of the reason for my edit. I editted what was becoming a very long list of individuals' personal favourites. Your accusation of being parochial is plainly wrong when you consider the edit left links to pottery related to Palestine, China, Japan, Native American, England, Greece, Iran and Holland. This lack of a parochial outlook is further supported as I am writing this from Colombia. I removed the Arts and Crafts Movement link as that article on has only a small inclusion on pottery, and that is limited to the USA. Also the import of Pweabic Pottery is very low. It is ony of relevance to the development of Studio Pottery in the USA, which from a global perspective is of such small importance as to be irrelevant. So rather than me being parochial it is you which show a parochial and narrow perspective.

Contents

[edit] You have been doing yeoperson work

at the Pewabic Pottery article and for that I award you the seldom coveted Thumbs Up Award. Might I suggest that you begin something to remove the red ink from Mary Chase Perry Stratton? The first decision, one that has held me in check is to decide what version of her name to use, or, put another way, whether to include the Stratton part or not. Life is good. Carptrash 19:06, 15 November 2007 (UTC) PS if you write something/anything on your user page then you will no longer appear in red either, and this is, I feel, a good thing.

[edit] Thank you for the recognition.

I have been doing this as a mitzvah, and expected none.

I would suggest that we start an entirely new article concerning Mary Chase Perry Stratton. There is lots of information on her and her glazes, just in the materials that are linked to this article. FWIW, I think that her marriage to the architect (Stratton) who designed the Pewabic building would deserve mention. Her partner in craft should also be mentioned in the Pewabic article, as well as in hers. She was really an important figure, and it would be a good complement to the article on Pewabic Pottery, which I believe still needs lots of work. Feel free to help out. 7&6=thirteen 19:39, 15 November 2007 (UTC) Stan

[edit] Guardian Building

Stan, FYI, here is a link to the Detroit News article [1] on the history of the Guardian Building. It does detail the ownership of the building during that time. Michigan Consolidated was the largest tenant and then became the owner in 1975.Thomas Paine1776 00:47, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Issues

My style at wikipedia is pretty much to back off problems and allow the other to have his/her way. In the article on Architectural sculpture, for example I said, fine, have it your way even though I do this [2]. However I will send a note to this other person and see where it gets us. I am a fairly long term wikipedian (I even got a bit of press here [3] ) and this sort of nah nah nahing is why I've cut way back. I just sort of got engaged with you because I liked what you were doing and wanted to be a part of it. So, we'll see. Anyway, thanks for asking and I will see what I can do. Probably not much before Sunday because tomorrow is our burning permit day. Which means not much to you but a lot to me. Carptrash (talk) 05:22, 17 November 2007 (UTC)

Good a.m. - I did leave a note with the tea pot fellow and am curious to see what happens next. However I should mention early in the process that my moves are not always linear - in chess I might be a knight - so we'll see. You are perhaps more direct, a castle perhaps? Oh yes, don't forget to sign your messages. A major wikipedia dictum. Carptrash (talk) 15:13, 17 November 2007 (UTC)


Thanks for the follow-up with Teapot George.

I think that the link I put the latest link (Brunk article from the Marshall Fredericks museum) I put in the Stratton and Pewabic article might be a good basis for us to put together a somwhat longer rendition on Statton's article, and could be used as the basis for a Caulkins piece. Good stuff. Thanks.

I'll remember to sign.

7&6=thirteen (talk) 15:19, 17 November 2007 (UTC) Stan

And one more sort of Amy Vanderbilt Etiquette thing, mostly folks post on each others discussion page and not the user page. It's sort of like . . . ........... parking on the driveway as opposed to on the lawn. It's not important to me, but others might freak out and in any case, knowledge in power and you should be at least aware of these things so that you're making informer decisions. And I really am not (or at least think I'm not) quite the fussy curmudgeon that this makes me sound like. Life is good. Carptrash (talk) 15:37, 17 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Yes

The picture is from a 1900 publication explaining the Boer War to Americans. these are Boers, looking for a hapless Englishman to shoot (from Carps History of All Things) Carptrash (talk) 23:01, 17 November 2007 (UTC)

PS not sure what Belle Isle phot you are referring to? more Carptrash (talk) —Preceding comment was added at 23:05, 17 November 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for the movie tip, so here is a wikitip in return. When you mention something such as Breaker Morant try putting brackets around it and see what pops up. My wife is a major Bryan Brown fan, so, yes, I've seen it. Oh yes, what are the two better trial movies? Carptrash (talk) 03:55, 18 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Perhaps more than you wanted to know, but . . ....

My wife will not watch (with only a few exceptions, one being true stories) movies in which there is a lot of tension or in which people are mean to each other. This cuts out a lot of viewing possibilities for together watching, but I recently scored a stack of library throwaways and have been watching them late at night. One, A Murder of Crows was two nights ago and you came right to mind. Last night it was Amistad, which is more trial though less "former trial lawyer". Anyway, we'd like to add My Cousin Vinny as another good trial flic - of a very different mode than the ones previously mentioned.

I did some time in the Labor trenches, so it's interesting to learn the direction that you are in. If you go to IWW you'll find my (former) Red Card there, and following that decade I was an unemployment advocate in Michigan for a bit. Not exactly The Law, but closeish. And so it goes. Now I have a septic tank to dig out, which, if not more fun that wikkiiing, more compelling in other ways. Einar aka Carptrash (talk) 16:16, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] the meaning of existence

Well certainly (yet another word for "my opinion") the heyday of the IWW was a century ago (carp-time), but they are still chugging along. The place I worked, The Peoples Wherehouse in Ann Arbor, Michigan wanted, or at least the workers wanted, a union that allowed them a carte blanche in contracts, negotiations etc, so as a result we became the largest active IWW shop at that time. No longer in existence, I do believe, though arguing about the meaning of existence is another direction that we could take. Now back to digging the septic tank. 75.91.169.120 (talk) 18:22, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

Whoooops. Turned out that I was not logged on. No surprise, I'm sure (yet another term for "My opinion"), but this is Carptrash (talk) 18:25, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] My mama taught me how to share

especially other folks stuff, but I am not sure what two year old bourbon barrel conditioned barley wine is exactly, or how i'd share it from New Mexico. Dixon is a wine growing (well grape growing, wine producing) area, so I am used to home grown, as it were. This stuff of yours sounds different. You mention "expensive", I drink Brandon's wine because it's free. He and I share air time on KLDK and well as being in the Pathetics together (see picture in KLDK article). Meanwhile it's off to Santa Fe for a day at Cool Shades. I am currently employed at a kiosk in a Mall there and the Big Season is almost upon us. Carptrash (talk) 13:48, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

I spent 30 odd years (some of them very odd indeed) in Ypsilanti and Ann Arbor much of it learning about the architecture of the area. I acquired a fair bit of knowledge about the buildings and the folks who created them. I know, for example, more about the life and work of Corrado Parducci than anyone else that I have ever met, or even learned about for that matter. And other stuff too. Getting a ticket to Metro is a great idea but I need to tell you that the only way that I do that these days is when someone else buys the ticket. Lydia, for example, got me one from Cleveland to Albuquerque recently when I drove her car for her from Santa Fe to Cleveland, but that's a story better told over the wine or beer or even Brandon's home grown red. Meanwhile I passed through a Sobriety Check Point in the Gorge tonight that made we feel good that I'd not tippled a few earlier. Life is good. Einar the eeeeeeeek Carptrash (talk) 04:00, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Welcome!

Welcome!

Hello, 7&6=thirteen, and welcome to Wikipedia! Thank you for your contributions. I hope you like the place and decide to stay. Here are some pages that you might find helpful:

I hope you enjoy editing here and being a Wikipedian! Please sign your messages on discussion pages using four tildes (~~~~); this will automatically insert your username and the date. If you need help, check out Wikipedia:Questions, ask me on my talk page, or ask your question and then place {{helpme}} before the question on your talk page. Again, welcome! bd2412 T 01:45, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Now you have me doing it.

I'm whacking away at that list too. it is interesting (to me) to note how many of the movies on the first list were made between 1957 and 1967. Why do you suppose that was? Why was Hollywood focusing it's best anf brightest (some of it quite dark) on the Judicial system then. It brings to mind the Johnny Nash song, There are more questions than answers - at least to me. eeeeek aka Carptrash (talk) 17:25, 21 November 2007 (UTC) PS thanks for Vinnie, even if he is in red. Which is odd because I think that there was an Oscar involved.

PS Don't forget to sign your comments on the Discussion pageof AoaM with 4 of these ~ guys(or gals if you prefer). Carptrash (talk) 17:33, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

I see that there is a category Courtroom dramas whch might need/want to be looked at and perhaps expanded. Too bad it excludes Vinny. Carptrash (talk) 17:39, 21 November 2007 (UTC) Just like work, huh?

[edit] I noticed, or think I noticed

that here[4] you signed something "Stan" instead of Lucky 13. I read The Bounty Trilogy as a youth and remember that the courtroom scenes were particularly tense because I'd developed definate ideas about who should be hanged and who set free and that my opinions did not always match those of the Royal Navy. In fact, rarely do. My older brother, Ragnar ([5]) attended the Royal Naval School (see Autobiography of a Carp, Chapter 3) and was pulled out when my mother discovered that they featured public cannings of miscreants - not a bad description of Ragnar in his younger years. I sort of took over the role in Chapter 6 or so. Carptrash (talk) 19:36, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Here is one thing that you are risking

at Trial movies. Much of the article is your opinion. It is possible that we can slide under the wikipolice radar for a bit, but at some point some 12/22 year old with the rule book committed to memory will show up and proceed to slash and burn. it is what got me to stop contributing very much. But now you have weaseled me with the carrot to get back to it. However the stick is lurking out there. So think about the English (language) issue and M (film) and I'll chip away at what I know to be red flag words —Preceding unsigned comment added by Carptrash (talk • contribs) 16:15, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

There also needs to be a better introduction to the article before leaping into the 10 Best List. Check this out for some ideas. Western (genre). Carptrash (talk) 16:25, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] "and talk about the merits of individual movies"

That just becomes more opinion. We need to find sources and allow them to do the talking. Meanwhile a list of Ttrial movies with links to other articles is a good next step. Articles are judged (and executed sometimes) by the number of links to other articles. Let's do it. Carptrash (talk) 18:16, 22 November 2007 (UTC) PS I'm winterinzing the homestead today - so will be on and off.

[edit] Re Anatomy of a Murder, and other things

Greetings Stan and thanks for getting in touch with me. I read many of the messages left for you here and I'm sure in agreement with Carptrash with some of the things he mentions.

Personally, I think you are a super writer and are doing good work. I think the learning curve on Wikepedia is a long one, especially if one does not read many of the guidelines before mushing on. I've been slapped around many a times, and have learned the hard way. Generally, I delete NPOV and info that clearly do not belong in an article.

I leave original work alone, or look for references someone neglected to include. Carptrash is correct: someone will come along and place a nasty tag on an article with original work and no reference.

Now for Anatomy of a Murder: The critical reception first para I guess is fine. Mostly, I've seen over and over, and now do it as well, critical reception written like the article I edited yesterday. See: One of the Hollywood Ten. Yes, way too simplistic, but it works.

The plot section: I'm going to move a few paras because the plot should be a general blow by blow account of what happens in the film. I'll label the new sections: Legal aspects & Comparisons to book. The plot section proper probably needs some work.

Well, that's it. Cheers, Luigibob (talk) 22:00, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] American cinema barnstar

American Cinema Barnstar
I Luigibob present you with this American Cinema Barnstar for all of the hard work you've done on the Anatomy of a Murder article--your contribution to film articles is much appreciated! Luigibob
Hey Stan: How are ya doing'. Super job on adding references to the "Legal aspects" section of the article. I was worried some tag happy Wikepidian would place a tag on the section. Now I think we're cool. I think the section is the best part of the article. It provides something to think about when watching the film. It seems you have a legal background. In college I took six units of US constitutional law. I consider both courses my favs while in college, and the prof, now a good friend of mine, is a "fire and brimstone" kind of fellow. Warm regards Stan, Luigibob 16:16, 4 December 2007 (UTC)Talk to Luigibob!

[edit] think that a caption

is a good idea. I figured that you might want to add something, but I was not sure what. I'll set it up for you to just go to the edit mode and remove Caption and add what you will. It's sort of funny, but I have two images that I've been planning to add to that article - which is why I had it bookmarked and saw you show up. We must be in parallel dimentions or something. Carptrash (talk) 21:06, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Checked the vandalism on Pottery

Thanks for the tip - I reverted back to the last pre-vandalized version of Pottery, and added a warning to Kownudl's talk page. If you're interested, you can check out the article on handling vandalism and this article on how to revert several versions at once. I found them very helpful. Jackollie (talk) 01:54, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] There are two kinds of people in the world.

Those that divide everything into two groups and those who do not. There are two kinds of wikipedians - Inclusionists and deletionists. I am an inclusionist. If I like something and figure that we'd have a better article by adding it, then I do so. And, as you've discovered, some deletionist will come along and . . . . . . . . . . . ....... So my thought is Go For It. Carptrash (talk) 18:31, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

I have articles about a variety of obscure sculptors that folks pretty much leave alone because it's not worth the time and/or effort to locate them, much less deal with them. But someday someone will discover the number of unpublished manuscripts by one Einar Einarsson Kvaran that are part of the sources that anything could happen. Caspar Buberl is one of my favorites and you'll not find (opinion) a better anything about him anywhere. Carptrash (talk) 20:26, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] When you get back

to your curator at the MFSM would you ask if he/she/they still have a record of the fact that I loaned them a book of Fredericks sculpture at the U of M Administration building? It was a scrap book, presented by the architects to the U of M pressident and I'd had autographed by Fredericks. Might give you a bit more clout. Carptrash (talk) 21:09, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] A couple of notes

from the Carptrash's Big Book of Etiquette, if you'd like me to visit a page, such as Irving Jacob Reuter, then make it a link Irving Jacob Reuter so that I can do it in the easiest way. The page look good, I am surprised that the house did not get a mention in Eckert's The Buildings of Michigan. The second note is that thoughts such as your's are typically presented on another wikipedians discussion page rather than on his/her User Page. Not a big thing with me, but some others get weird and territorial about it. Also, if somethng is posted on my user page I don't get that You've got Messages note in orange (or whatever) that I so love. Carptrash 16:57, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for the review link. Do you have pictures of those tiles? Sound as if they'd make a nice addition it several articles. Sendin me links is fine I actually DO care. What I'm not thrilled about getting is messages from the Other Side telling us that if we all get up at 3 am and beat a drum for an hour or two that World Peace will result. What you sent is interesting in my world. Carptrash 20:02, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] It's hard to say

without seeing a picture of the building, but I think i get the idea. Okay, what we have here (opinion) is more British hi-jacking of the American - I mean United Statesian perspective. (Another whole can of worms for another day) Tudorbethan architecture is not a term used in America. Here is is called Tudor Revival or sometimes Jacobian Something. However someone has taken that link and redirected it to Tudorbethan architecture. I'll poke around and see what can be done. In the meanwhile I'll suggest that you call your place Tudor Revival for now and let's se what can be done. Carptrash 17:53, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

Well it might be too late to 'let them argue it out." I've contacted an administrator and requested that We (Americans) get the Tudor Revival page if the limey's don't want it. Your building is definately what I'd call Tudor Revival, so it might be an early link. Meanwhile I need to knock together a creditable stub so that if I get the page cleared to use, that there will be something to put up. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Carptrash (talk • contribs) 18:46, 4 December 2007 (UTC)
Yes, so after we get this thing dealt with we can go back to the Pottery issue if you like. I suspect that you have enough wikiexperiance to pick-and-choose your fights and your path through the wikimine fields. Meanwhile, would you glance at Paul Williams (architect), go to the Work section and see if you think that the work vernacular is the right one. Also the article sugests that Williams did modern versions of Tudor Revival, when in fact (opinion) he was just doing Tudor Revival - which is a modern version of . ...... real Tudor. Make sense? Carptrash 19:07, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] I've done a fair amount

of Matilda Dodge research and know, which many don't, that she was the first woman Lt. Gov. of Michigan. Also was never accepted intp Grosse Pt. society because she started out as Dodge's secratary. Corrado Parducci did a lot of work for her, at Meadow Brook Hall, the Wilson Theatre (Music Hall) and on her mausoleum in Woodlawn Cemetery (Detroit, Michigan) In fact she is listed in red at that entry, just waiting for you to do an article on her.. I did a Parducci slide show at Meadow Brook years ago and unfortunately, gave them some of my best pictures. Oh well. Carptrash (talk) 21:32, 4 December 2007 (UTC) Meanwhile my real focus today is on my septic tank which . . ...... you probably don't want to know, and if you do then your are sicker than I'd imagined.

[edit] Harrisville, Michigan

Article should reference both D&M and LSR, as you suggest. Take a look at the current language. Bigturtle (talk) 16:55, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Don't worry about the link not working

You just put one instead of two sets of [ ] around it. As for the logo, just because a company folds it does not mean that someone else does not own the copyright to it. However I'll try and get it into the article and we'll go from there. I just got rid of a bunch of Michigan Train books that had belonged to my late father-in-law and that I donated to the Embudo valley Library book sale. Our library here is not a public one in that it gets no tax support, so all funds come from donations and grants and what not. Anyway, they are probably gone now, though if they did not sell will be in the storage are that as a Library BoD member I have access to. hmmmmmmmm Carptrash (talk) 17:06, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Sturgeon Point Light Station references need work

Hi, I don't see anything obviously wrong with the references in the article. It is more densely footnoted than I would like, but some editors interpret verifiability guidelines on wikipedia to mean that every sentence or even every clause of every sentence needs to be footnoted. Is there perhaps a more specific question about the references I might be able to help with? older ≠ wiser 14:38, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

That is just a way to re-use the same source without repeating the entire entry each time. Each letter links to a different point in the article where the source is referenced. It works OK for single pages on web sites or short print articles. For multiple references to separate pages within a book, I prefer to place the author's name and the page number in a note, and place the bibliographic details for the book in a separate section. However, several styles for citing sources are acceptable for use in Wikipedia articles. Which style is most appropriate may vary according to the subject and the available source material. older ≠ wiser 16:46, 8 December 2007 (UTC)
I understand. There are many styles that are acceptable that I don't particularly like, but I've learned it is usually not worth making too much of a fuss over. older ≠ wiser 17:03, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Notability of author and ISBN numbers

I had no idea you had added the author and the book with ISBN number, so there is no reason to take offense, because my edit was made in good faith. It's extremely common on the English Wikipedia for people to promote themselves, their books, their organizations, their political views, and so on, by inserting them into articles. If the author is notable, then the book and the book's ISBN number can be listed in the author's Wikipedia article (like the Judith Guest example). I think Harmony Weekend is notable, because it's an annual event that involves the entire city. I'd be happy to provide references. Why not simply provide an appropriate reference for this author and leave out the ISBN number, which really doesn't belong in an article about Harrisville? Best, MoodyGroove (talk) 01:24, 9 December 2007 (UTC)MoodyGroove

Placing the ISBN number in the footnote would be better (I try to include them if the reference is a book, for example) but don't be surprised if another editor comes along at some point in the future and questions the author's notability again. This is especially common when a stubby article like Harrisville gets developed and moves toward B status. No one likes to see their content get deleted or challenged, but the process is healthy for the project, and the end result is usually a higher quality article. What we are experiencing here is nowhere near an edit war, but rather, exactly the kind of communication expected between editors who share a common goal of writing a good article that is good for the project. The best thing to do if you care about this content is to substantiate it with a verifiable source. I'll even help you find one, if you would like. Best, MoodyGroove (talk) 14:26, 9 December 2007 (UTC)MoodyGroove
You can always click on my user page and then click "E-mail this user" in the toolbox to the left. Is it a URL to the article that you intended on emailing? Please feel free and I will format the reference. Best, MoodyGroove (talk) 18:12, 9 December 2007 (UTC)MoodyGroove

[edit] Long Lake (Alpena, Michigan)

No problem. Most of my editing is polishing/tidying articles where I can. Ravenna1961 (talk) 04:18, 17 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Grayling, Michigan

No problem. I think I fixed the image link, and two text page links. I also learned I have been mistaken for over 30 years about the name of central in Dallas, TX, I75 versus US75. Amazing what you learn on wikipedia :) JackSchmidt (talk) 22:07, 17 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Otsego County, Michigan

I didn't find a good link for all the business loops grouped together, and the business loops are given very little attention on Interstate 75 in Michigan (but enough I could use as a model). There is a longer list article List of Business Routes of the Interstate Highway System#Interstate 75 that was also useful. I ended up just linking the image and the local article, Interstate 75 Business (Gaylord, Michigan). Feel free to change the link labels, or add back in an I-75 link. JackSchmidt (talk) 19:29, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Pewabic Pottery

Tagging this as dubious is legitimate as ot os a very big claim that is only supported by a single reference from someone who is clearly biased as he is the Curator on Pewabic Pottery history. It either needs valid references or it should be removed. Please try to improve the article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.151.154.226 (talk) 20:33, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

Hopefully this part is addressed now. I tried not to change any content or tone of the article other than the one "finest" phrase. I moved most of the opening into the main article, which should hopefully make it easier to add more material. The article sounds very interesting, and it can definitely be expanded (perhaps onto the biography pages as well). Let me know if you want any explanation of what I did, or help continuing with it. JackSchmidt (talk) 01:42, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Northern Michigan

I made two edits so you could see which you prefer. The first one only works in FireFox (and lots of other less common browsers, but not IE7). It is very easy to tweak, though. You just add <div style="-moz-column-count:4; column-count:4;"> to the top and </div> to the bottom, where you can replace "4" (both times) with how many columns you want. 4 happened to be even, but 3 might be a better choice.

The other way, the way that works in IE7 and FireFox (and lots but not all less common browsers) is the {{multicol}} template. The only problem with it is you have to explicitly say where the columns break, so adding new items to the list is a pain in the butt. I suspect you rarely have to add cities, so I hope it was the right choice. It was the one I left on the article. Adjusting column lengths and widths just means moving, adding, or deleting those {{multicol-break}} tags.

Help:List has some information on doing this stuff, but leaves out the first solution both solutions. Math tends to use the first solution with the <div>, but probably because there are some commonly used math websites that worked better on FireFox for many years, and so everyone has FireFox.

At any rate the first one makes life easier for editors, but the second one makes life better for viewers. I went with the second, since I hope the list of cities will not change much. JackSchmidt (talk) 17:38, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

Sorry, I just noticed that Help:List is not very helpful. Template:multicol documents the second solution, and the first solution is just folklore in the math section of wikipedia. You can see it in action in Template:Reflist but this is hard to read. JackSchmidt (talk) 17:49, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Happy holidays Stan, the man

Hey, I trust you've been well. I'm sorry for not getting back to you sooner since you last left a message. As they say, "my bad." To respond: I'll try to work on the "trial movies" article in my SANDBOX and see what you think. Also, my local library has a copy of the film. I think I'll watch ANATOMY once more this week. As for the CATEGORY:color films, I don't think one exists. I'll let you know when I edit trial movies for your looksee. The article really is needed (so glad you started it) and without TAGS. Best to you Stan-- ♦ Luigibob ♦ "Talk to Luigi!" 21:00, 25 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Spelling

No worries on the spelling. I'm using a live spellcheck program to catch recent typos, so don't think I'm specifically following YOU around ;-) Tanthalas39 (talk) 03:34, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Indent

To indent you type a colon (:) or a series of colons (:::) at the beginning of your comments. Look at the code for this reply and you'll see how it's done.

First reply
Second reply
Second reply, second graph
Third reply

Usual practice on the talk pages is to indent one more level (one more colon) for each reply, until about four or five levels, then go back to the left side of the page. But by all means, don't let it stop you from commenting on the talk page. --Steven J. Anderson (talk) 13:59, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

You're welcome. I hope you understand that I'm not looking for a fight or trying to make an enemy of you. I can see that you're doing good work here and hope you'll continue. I just had doubts about that link. --Steven J. Anderson (talk) 14:19, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
I understand. I'm not particularly sensitive about editing. Especially when it turns out the editor got it right, and I got it wrong.
In my work I am like the supreme court. As Justice Henry Jackson once said: "We are not final because we are infallible; we are infallible because we are final."
Of course, in Wiki one is never final. And I was mistaken, as BKConrad graciously pointed out. So keep up the good work, as this was not taken as a personal attack. BTW, apparently you've been working hard on the Toledo War. You (and whomever) have done a very nice job!
Happy new year to you. 7&6=thirteen (talk) 17:58, 31 December 2007 (UTC)Stan

[edit] For no particular reason

Hope you have a good day! Nengscoz416 (talk) 02:10, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Limitation on use of signs

It may have, but then the article would easily have been prone to signitis, where signs are everywhere there's a mention of a route name. And there are many in both articles.

About a year and a half ago we just decided to limit it to exit lists and infoboxes (those things on the right.)

Thanks! —Rob (talk) 17:42, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, there's a link to current standards. WP:USRD/MOS. They change a lot, but not enough to merit too much concern. —Rob (talk) 21:29, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Interstate article intros

I've noticed that you've been editing some articles lately, and you might wonder why I've reverted some of those edits. It's already sufficient to start an article with '''Interstate 496''', abbreviated as '''I-496''' to get Interstate 496, abbreviated as I-496. Changing the intro so that it's a link to the same page being viewed, a) takes more characters, b) only bolds it anyway and c) removes the full name (which is needed) showing only an abbreviation. Also, interstates are never normally called US I-96 as US 96 and I-96 are two different highways, in two different states! (US 96 is in Texas, I-96 is in Michigan). If you have any questions, please feel free to ask me anytime. I'm glad to be of help! Imzadi1979 (talk) 22:43, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] from eeeek

It's nice to hear from you, particularly in these . . ...... troubled times. Here is the deal. This admin. is telling me that every piece of sculpture has to be written up as Fair Use and/or I'm not sure what and I am not up to it. I have hundreds of images on wikipedia and am not about to find them all and write 'em up one by one. About a week ago a friend of mine died, perhaps by his own doing upon getting a bad medical diagnosis. That's sort of how I'm feeling now. I'd rather do it myself. feel free to check out the copyright links that are in the postings above where you mailed me. I did and there is stuff about copyright expiring when the artist dies - pretty much all mine are dead, but . . ... I don't know. I am trying to get my book Shadowing Parducci ready to self publish by the end of January and have more hundreds of pictures to scan and photoshop and all and am not up for this at all. But it is good to hear from you and feel free to contact the fellow who is getting ready to delete my pictures and offer him a second opinion. Life is supposed to be interesting. Einar aka Carptrash (talk) 02:15, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

hmmmmmmm. Well there is no one harassing me, this fellow is trying his best, we just have different opinions as to what that means. If you go to my talk pages and go up a posting or two (from the bottom) you'll find a series of links to various copyright information. I suggest that you look over it before launching anything. It's interesting stuff - legal writing, and it's hard for me to get to the bottom of it. There seem to be a lot of "what ifs" involved and this editor has decided that all sculpture is copyrighted and thus can not be used. It might cause aminor riot in the wiki sculpture world, but, if he is correct then, so be it. But I do not think that he is right. Carptrash (talk) 02:28, 6 January 2008 (UTC)


So here is the US copyright law.

http://www.copyright.gov/title17/92chap1.html#120

Seems as if Sec. 106 is a place to begin.

There is more on Sec. 113

Sec. 107 is the Fair Use section and probably covers what i do, but that means writing out 500 or more separate explanations, and that I am not going to do.

The fact that all my sculptors are dead might come to bear (bare?) but do their heirs automatically get rights to the work?

What else can I do? What would a intellectual rights attorney want/need to know for an 8 minute diagnosis?

Architectural stuff before 1990 seems to be okay, so I might have pulled Lee Lawrie out a bit prematurely. Oh well.

In any case, thanks a lot for your interest and concern. Einar Carptrash (talk) 03:04, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Michigan's Thumb

I have never heard of the Sarnia to Alpena boat race, but then again I don't live in Sarnia or Alpena. Thanks for working on the thumb, it looks so much better than it did before. I have just started to work on a festival page for the thumb. I'm sorry I can't help you about that boat race, but do you know where M-25 starts in Port Huron? Check out the thumb talk page for my latest discussion.Cgord (talk) 17:40, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

Thanks again for working on the thumb and helping me put this region back on the map. I have just started working on the Southeast Michigan page, but I don't think it will ever be as good as Northern Michigan & the Thumb. With the new changes, the thumb wiki page is the first to come up on google when searching the thumb of Michigan. Thanks so much for all the work you ave done, keep up the good work.Cgord (talk) 01:56, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

I've visited the Clark Library website, and they've got something on everyting. Thanks for telling me.Cgord (talk) 01:10, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

Hey, do you know of any list of Michigan universities to help me on the thumb? Also, thanks for the link to Info Michigan, it is very usefull for history of cities and towns. Lets keep working on Flint/Tri Cities, Its getting a lot better.Cgord (talk) 23:24, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

Do you know how to make tables smaller, like the thumb large population table? Something the size of the population tables on the U.P. article would be great.Cgord (talk) 23:31, 4 February 2008 (UTC)
If you haven't noticed, I've been busy and havent had much time to work on wikipedia. Thanks for your message, I will check out the Michigan Lighthouses, you did a great job on Port Sanilac Light. I keep going to the Northern Michigan artical, but its so good, I can't seem to add anything to it. I've got to go, the Red Wings are playing! Cgord (talk) 00:32, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Edit Summaries

Hi there. When editing an article on Wikipedia there is a small field labeled "Edit summary" under the main edit-box. It looks like this:
Edit summary text box

The text written here will appear on the Recent changes page, in the page revision history, on the diff page, and in the watchlists of users who are watching that article. See m:Help:Edit summary for full information on this feature.

Filling in the edit summary field greatly helps your fellow contributors in understanding what you changed, so please always fill in the edit summary field. If you are adding a section, please do not just keep the previous section's header in the Edit summary field - please fill in your new section's name instead. Thank you.

[edit] Pere Marquette

How do you figure the Pere Marquette Railway being a current common carrier? My understanding is that it stopped existing when it passed to the C&O in 1947. Best, Mackensen (talk) 14:18, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Interurbans

Quick note here. I'm adding all the defunct railway companies I can find in Meints' book to List of Michigan railroads and I've added a separate section for interurbans to try and manage things. Mackensen (talk) 17:40, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Muskegon and Ludington

How's that look? Unfortunately, there isn't a special graphic for business loops (except the special green Interstate shields), but I have a trick to make one up. Just use [[Image:Business plate.svg|##px]]<br>[[Image:US ##.svg|##px]] as needed. Remember that 3-digit US highway shields are supposed to be displayed at 25px instead of 20px, so the business plate would also need to be wider to look right. Any more questions, just ask. I'm always happy to help. Imzadi1979 (talk) 21:32, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Muskegon and Ludington

How's that look? Unfortunately, there isn't a special graphic for business loops (except the special green Interstate shields), but I have a trick to make one up. Just use [[Image:Business plate.svg|##px]]<br>[[Image:US ##.svg|##px]] as needed. Remember that 3-digit US highway shields are supposed to be displayed at 25px instead of 20px, so the business plate would also need to be wider to look right. Any more questions, just ask. I'm always happy to help. Imzadi1979 (talk) 21:36, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

Oh, and for the County-Designated Highways, the A-## highways, the graphic used is [[[[Image:Michigan A-## county County.svg|20px]]. Imzadi1979 (talk) 21:36, 12 January 2008 (UTC)
You are a veritable fount of information on this roads and signs and anything else on this topic.
Ordinarily, all I do is edit/copy from another page, which has the virtue that I won't be making new mistakes (and the vice that I will be reproducing old errors, if somebody else did them). Essentially I am doing this in a brainless/mechanical way, without understanding what I am doing.
Your new images looked great, by the way. 7&6=thirteen (talk) 21:41, 12 January 2008 (UTC)Stan
You're quite welcome. Imzadi1979 (talk) 22:09, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] List of museums

I share your concern about the museum lists. Michigan is not the only place with a problem. Please stop in at Talk:List of museums in the United States and add your two-cents-worth (or more). --Orlady (talk) 03:13, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Yankee Air Museum

I'm new at this, so I'll ask forgiveness in advance for my errors.

I believe that The Yankee Air Museum in Belleville is the National Headquarters and the Wurstsmith and Saginaw are separate divisions (and separate museums). I would think they would each deserve their own separate mentions, and cross link to each other? I guess what led to my initial confusion was the Michigan Museums page listed Yankee Air Museum as Oscoda, but the click through clearly showed the Willow run entity. If the "see also" had been Yankee Air Force Wurtsmith Division, rather than Oscoda, I might not have so quickly assumed it was a cut and paste editing typo. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Annebethmi (talk • contribs) 17:54, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Speedy deletion of Henry Stephens (lumberman)

A tag has been placed on Henry Stephens (lumberman) requesting that it be speedily deleted from Wikipedia. This has been done under section A7 of the criteria for speedy deletion, because the article appears to be about a person or group of people, but it does not indicate how or why the subject is notable: that is, why an article about that subject should be included in an encyclopedia. Under the criteria for speedy deletion, articles that do not indicate the subject's importance or significance may be deleted at any time. Please see the guidelines for what is generally accepted as notable, as well as our subject-specific notability guideline for biographies.

If you think that this notice was placed here in error, you may contest the deletion by adding {{hangon}} to the top of the page (just below the existing speedy deletion or "db" tag), coupled with adding a note on the article's talk page explaining your position, but be aware that once tagged for speedy deletion, if the article meets the criterion it may be deleted without delay. Please do not remove the speedy deletion tag yourself, but don't hesitate to add information to the article that would would render it more in conformance with Wikipedia's policies and guidelines. ScarianCall me Pat 19:53, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] It is nice to hear from you.

Actually, I do not consider either the Buhl or the Wrigley to be art deco. Deco (opinion) is not about structure - both are constructed like many other deco buildings, but about surface ornamentation, and neither uses that. I see that the smash-and-grab folks are at your Stevens article. it is so intersted, to me, that any bit of current pop culture fluff can rate an article but when you start going back in time all of a sudden the nay-sayers start popping up. When I first got on the www in the 1990s in noticed that it was great for current things, and moved forward nicely, but when you tried going back it became less friendly. That seems to have not changed. Yes, I pulled out my Fredericks pictures, and probably more. The copyright issue is complicated, I got Parducci's son to give me carte blanche on his work, mostly because I'm writing a book about his work, but in contacting the State of Tennessee about the copyrights to the Alvin York statue they own (picture now gone) all I got was "We're not saying we do own it and we're not saying we don't." Life can get tangeled, but only when I hang on to the strings. Let go of them and they do not seem to be such a problem. I looked for a place to vote on the Steven's article, but could not find one. Usually the DELETE NOW stamps have aplace to go. Did I miss it? Life is good. Einar aka Carptrash (talk) 16:32, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Upper Peninsula

I looked at the link before I reverted the deletion of Suicide Hill and couldn't understand why it was removed. That's why I referred to it as vandalism. It's obviously noteworthy. I'm sure you could make it into a stand alone article. Take a look at this link.... http://info.detnews.com/redesign/history/story/historytemplate.cfm?id=149

I'll look at Tawas Point Light next chance I get.Asher196 (talk) 04:29, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Of course

i had to add something about the Murphy statue, so I did. This is a great article and I can't add more than i did. I am not a fan of footnoting outside links because they frequently disappear in a month or two and that's really annoying. ah well. Einar aka Carptrash (talk) 05:07, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

Here is a slight insight into me. I am not a finisher and polisher. And if Frank M needed anything it was that and my eye is not attuned to that sort of detail. I'm a broad strokes kind of a guy. But one of my claims is that I can tie a statue into anything and with Murph it was easy, since it was already there. I question the bit about Marshall Fredericks "helping" set the statue on the pedistal. Fredericks was one of those folks, who, when they see a spot light, even on someone else, can not help but step into the center of focus. like the Rev. Al Sharpton, but different. Einar aka Carptrash (talk) 21:30, 16 February 2008 (UTC)
"albeit on a 24 foot high penis" Now that pulls a chain. I wrote a section in the phallus article about phallic architecture and buildings that look like penises and it was removed as being original research. As if 98% of all humanity could not tell what, say the Nebraska Capitol building looks like. I am also frequently chastised for calling articles "mine," so i completely understand the feeling. Carptrash (talk) 22:00, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

So my Phallic Architecture still exists? Cool, but then that will get us arguing about the meaning of exiatance, and what chance would I have? Don't worry about your opinion too much. if you have a reference somewhere near that's probably good enough. Meanwhile I just volunteered to take a friend to CA of knee surgery, his wife just came down with theflu, so again I get someone else to pay for my travelling. It does not get much better. Leave tomorrow at sunrise. Einar akaCarptrash (talk) 02:12, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

I've been informed that part of my duties involve wplking Howard 10 minutes every hour. The EVERY HOUR was stressed. I;ll know soon if that means 24 or not. i want to do some arch sculpt stuff in Sacramento, but we'll see. Thanks for the thoughts. Einar akaCarptrash (talk) 03:02, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Leland, Michigan

I added the settlement infobox and some basic information. Feel free to add as much information to the box as you want. It's rather time consuming to start from scratch, but I'll add more info when I get a chance.Asher196 (talk) 17:03, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] South Manitou Island Light

I just created this article. If you get a chance, take a look and work your magic on it. Thanks!----Asher196 (talk) 14:20, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] From me Luigi

I just awantd to say hi! I hope you are enjoying being a Wikipedian. I am. As for me, I got to my library, and OMG, they have many Argentinian films. See: User:Luigibob/ForeignFilms. So I was able to add info to the articles. My best -- ♦ Luigibob ♦ "Talk to Luigi!" 14:03, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

Thanks so much for your comments. I've seen what you have added to many articles. Good job. You are helping so much. As for me, I just stick to films. Oh well, I guess that is my expertise. I should add to political science articles since that is my background. You take care sir. Luigibob (talk) 16:12, 3 March 2008 (UTC)
Did you see the squabble in the article (Anatomy of a Murder). Amazing...over such a trivial matter. That's why I never want to get involved bringing an article that I've been involved in to any status over B. And if it happens, I will not be involved. See my talk page for the full discussion and end. By the way, I suggest you change "inter alia" to "among other things." Food for thought. Best- your wiki-friend Luigibob (talk) 04:13, 12 March 2008 (UTC)
Sorry, I'll do the change. Trust me. Some Wikipedian will freak soon. I know what it means since I took two con laws classes, as I mentioned, but the layman reading an encyclopedia will not. Luigibob (talk) 04:19, 12 March 2008 (UTC)
Funny how people are telling me, I guess, and you indirectly, the diffs between footnotes, refs, and a bibliography. I have 200 units in higher ed college creds, you probably have 450. These egos...whatever...I reached out to a few Wikipedians, however. On another matter, I met someone who is so cool. He sent me a DVD of a film I remember so well, but is no longer available. The FILM: The Brotherhood of the Bell. My best -- Luigibob (talk) 06:46, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Catholic Diocese of Gaylord

You said: I notice that you have removed the statement and reference that Charlevoix, Michigan (and 30 other locales) is part of the Gaylord diocese of the Catholic Church. Your systematic removal of the accurate relationship of the geographic organization of the Catholic church in Michigan form a bunch of websites under the theory that "it has nothing to do with geography" is wrong-headed. If you narrowly construe the word "geography", you were still removing a pertinent, true and useful fact. It would have been far better (IMHO), if you had expended all this destructive energy in a constructive manner, i.e., moving the thought or reforming it into a message that would be of use to the readers while leaving the information there in one form or another. Of course, maybe it is that you have a different agenda.

My reply: I'd be curious to know what _your_ agenda is. You can't possibly tell me that every town and county in Wikipedia, even articles that are 3 paragraphs long, should have a reference to what Catholic Diocese it is a part of. It was not "destructive energy" at all - it was an attempt to keep the articles to an even and relevant level of detail. I'm a member of the Sierra Club. Does that mean that I should edit the articles for every town and county in Northern Michigan to say "Traverse City is considered to be part of the Traverse Group chapter of the Sierra Club."? No, of course not. If you want to add a section to these towns and counties that discusses their religious affiliations, I would have no problem with that. However, if you do that, you might want to consider including other religions as well. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.216.101.146 (talk) 11:44, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Hey my friend and trail films, hey why not

My friend, let me work with you on some films you mentiponed before, and a sectionen

[edit] Happy First Day of Spring!

Happy First Day of Spring!

[edit] I suggest

that you email Thom Brunk, tell him we are working on the changes and ask him how his book on th Masonic Temple is going. 03:12, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] CMU library external link

Hey there. I couldn't help but notice you added an external link about the chronology of Michigan lighthouses to a large number of seemingly relevant pages. You may want to familiarize yourself with WP:EL, specifically point #1 at WP:ELNO. All of the relevant information from your page could be incorporated into the articles, so the external link isn't warranted. If you have the time, you should make those additions. —Zeagler (talk) 15:17, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

Welcome to Wikipedia. Although everyone is welcome to contribute constructively to the encyclopedia, one or more of the external links you added to the page Marquette, Michigan‎ do not comply with our guidelines for external links and have been removed. Wikipedia is not a collection of links; nor should it be used for advertising or promotion. Since Wikipedia uses nofollow tags, external links do not alter search engine rankings. If you feel the link should be added to the article, please discuss it on the article's talk page before reinserting it. Please take a look at the welcome page to learn more about contributing to this encyclopedia. Thank you. --- Barek (talk • contribs) - 16:40, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

[6] This is your only warning.
The next time you make a personal attack, you will be blocked for disruption. Comment on content, not on other contributors or people. --Hu12 (talk) 23:16, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

You have been Blocked for personal attacks and harassment. If you wish to make useful contributions, you are welcome to come back after the block expires.--Hu12 (talk) 23:35, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] I have been wrongfully blocked from editing

Hu12‎ and Barek engaged in a deliberate and willful concerted and personal attack on me. They engaged in wikistalking and sock puppetry. When I protested their actions, they deleted my complaints from their talk pages. They deleted (without cause) a whole lot of work I had put into articles. This block is now in retaliation for my complaints. This is an abuse of editorial responsibility, and is part of a larger problem with Hu12, who apparently has issues and abuses his power on a regular basis. You need to put a stop on this abuse of power, position and irresponsibility. I accuse. 7&6=thirteen (talk) 23:59, 27 March 2008 (UTC)Stan

I have unblocked you. While I think Hu12 was a little hasty in blocking you, you also jumped to conclusions regarding his actions. I know it can be difficult when editors go and systematically undo your edits, but it is best to begin by assuming good faith and simply asking for a better explanation before making accusations. older ≠ wiser 01:31, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Harbor Beach

Thanks for the compliment. I'm sure some people won't like the format, but... --HB Edit (talk) 20:10, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Your message on my page

Let me get this out in the open first: I support your editing and think that the response to your edits was overblown and out of proportion to what was needed. You have done a lot of wonderful work in the areas relating to Michigan. With that said, you were not helping your case by alluding to Naziesque behavior and calling people "goons". That doesn't go over well on the WP:ANI pages. I really was trying to help you by pointing out what Hu12 did was wrong and such but the extreme language you used on the board turned a lot of people off to your cause. If you succinctly pointed out what happened instead of launching into a very wordy tirade, there probably would have been a different ending to the whole encounter. Short, sweet, and factual accounts usually get action. Long rants with lots of colorful language towards other users and administrators does not. That's it. I hope to see you around Wikipedia for a long time! spryde | talk 11:55, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Charity Island Light

Despite our prior disagreement, I am glad to see that you're still contributing. You are a valuable asset to Wikipedia.

On the article, I resequenced based on the WP:MOS, and removed some external links that already exist in the "Notes" section. As you commented on my talk page, I'm hoping I didn't cause an edit conflict for you. The only remaining change I was going to make was to change "Bibliography and further reading" to "Further reading" per WP:GTL#Further_reading, but I'll hold off in case you're still working on the article. --- Barek (talk • contribs) - 22:47, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

Just an FYI that I replied to you on my talk page. Incidentally, so you know why I have an interest in Michigan - that's where I grew up and attended college, and still have family scattered there and in Indiana. I now live in Washington state, but go back periodically to visit. I have an interest in some of the lighthouse articles, but I prefer working with WP:SHIPS, so will likely not touch many more lighthouse articles than those you've already seen me edit. --- Barek (talk • contribs) - 00:00, 3 April 2008 (UTC)
Thanks for the compliment, although I think you give me too much credit. But, how about a trade of contribution effort. I've been wanting to create the Marquette Harbor Light article, and your reference sources would be invaluable. If you could provide a pile of sources for me on that one, I'll go ahead and see if I can expand on Charlevoix South Pier Light Station, and work some of the sources into in-text citations. --- Barek (talk • contribs) - 00:40, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Lighthouses

I left a brief note at WP:AN/I regarding your complaint about Hu12 (talk · contribs). I didn't look much into the wikistalking thing, but I did note that he shouldn't use administrative rollback in content disputes. I'd also recommend that you don't get overheated in discussions and start using inflammatory terms.

That said, I was looking through your talk page and your contributions (oops, now I'm wikistalking) and I noticed you've been doing a lot of work on lighthouses, historic sites, and museums. Here's a useful link on an inventory of historic light stations in Michigan. I don't know if you've already used that site, but it could prove useful in filling in some of the fields in {{Infobox Lighthouse}}. I do a fair amount of work within Wikipedia:WikiProject National Register of Historic Places when I'm not being a heavy-handed admin, so you're welcome to check that project out. (Actually, I don't like to think of myself as being a heavy-handed admin, but I've been struggling with Calpis (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) recently.) --Elkman (Elkspeak) 16:46, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

Dear Elkman:
Thanks for the information. So the record is clear, I don't willy-nilly go around making accusations, so you are in no danger. Nor do I think that you are being a "heavy-headed' admin. I've been using that particular inventory fairly often -- something I do is put in too many external links (which do have all -- or most -- of the pertinent information that you can find on line). The strategy is (I think anyway) to give readers what they need, even if we don't have it, and to give future editors at least a direction, so that they can make the article bigger, and eventually incorporate them in as line citations).
FWIW, I don't know anything about infoboxes, and I've been recruiting people (asher196 for example) to help me out, and he graciously has done that repeatedly. The quid pro quo is that he's recruited me to edit some articles. Of course, any sources that can help the quality of the product are greatly appreciated by me. So far that compartmentalization seems to work well.
Feel free to write anytime. Best regards. 7&6=thirteen (talk) 16:55, 3 April 2008 (UTC) Stan
I was pretty much joking about being a heavy-handed admin -- in fact, I've tended to think of myself as being a heavy-handed admin in situations before this. As far as infoboxes go, if you're interested in learning them, one way to learn them is to edit articles that already have {{Infobox Lighthouse}}, like Split Rock Light (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs). --Elkman (Elkspeak) 17:10, 3 April 2008 (UTC)
I answered some of your questions at my talk page. (You might want to watchlist it.) --Elkman (Elkspeak) 15:18, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Glad to see you're back

Now try not to keep me too busy.....Asher196 (talk) 04:53, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Huron Lightship

The image is indeed correct. From The Terry Pepper site: "The Huron then continued on under her own power to the Twelfth District Headquarters in Milwaukee, where she arrived on June 9th. Sported a bright red Hull with the word "RELIEF" painted on her hull sides, indicative of the purpose for which she was originally commissioned."....Asher196 (talk) 16:54, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

I'll post that to the Huron Lightship talk page. Thank again. 7&6=thirteen (talk) 17:29, 5 April 2008 (UTC)Stan

[edit] Tawas Point Light image

I'm drugged up right now, that's keeping me going. You can change the image back if you want. I just thought it looked better zoomed in. I don't think the article is long enough to warrant two images. It won't hurt my feelings if you go back to the other image....Asher196 (talk) 03:07, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Charlton Heston

I saw your question on the Charlton Heston talk page. Check out this link if you haven't seen it yet. http://blog.mlive.com/bctimes/2008/04/charlton_heston_left_heartfelt.html Asher196 (talk) 02:54, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

I put the link in as a reference in St. Helen, Michigan Thanks. 7&6=thirteen (talk) 00:27, 18 April 2008 (UTC) Stan

[edit] Granite Island Light

Check this out. http://www.nps.gov/history/maritime/light/granite.htm Asher196 (talk) 18:38, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] St. Helena Island Light

Thanks for your hard work on this article. Bigturtle (talk) 23:46, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Round Island Light (Michigan)

Small changes and additions made, with story rearranged chronologically. 8,000+ bytes. Bigturtle (talk) 22:13, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Lewis lamp

Just wondering if you had any sources that provide more detail on Lewis lamps. I created the article about two weeks ago based on info from Terry Pepper and one other site; but if you have additional sources that could be used to expand the article a bit, that would be great.

I ran into one problem with the article; the two sources that I used have different information about some of the specifics on how Winslow Lewis acquired the contracts (so I left out a good portion of that detail, as I was uncertain as to which source was actually correct). I'm hoping that if additional sources can be found, they may help shed some light on the discrepancies between the other two. --- Barek (talk • contribs) - 20:55, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

I was pleased when those links went blue, but didn't think much about it. I've not given it any thought. I will in the next few days. Maybe its on line somewhere. Kind of old and obscure nautical trivia, I think. BTW, I trust Terry Pepper (although he does have typos, as he has done most of that work himself and without staff or support, and it is a huge data base -- I send him corrections and suggestions regularly, and we now occasionally do correspond -- bottom line, it is easy and inevitable to make mistakes. Of course, there are also limits to his knowledge. His website throws up his hands because he didn't know how to get to Charity Island Light, and I've corrected that in Wiki and let him know. Anyway, my main point is that if he doesn't have it, then it will be hard to find, because by and large he is a very good workman and researcher. I could look in my 1911 Encyclopedia Britannica (I think that's on line, too, but I have a hardback set). I'll get back to you. I've got a meeting to go to. 7&6=thirteen (talk) 21:05, 16 April 2008 (UTC) Stan

[edit] American Museum of Magic

My pleasure! Im a fan of anything 'magic' related. I think your article is interesting + wld be happy to help expand on it if you can provide further info +/or additional sources. Thanks! --15ParkRow (talk) 14:09, 19 April 2008 (UTC)

The image they provided you must be public domain. Here is the Wikipedia policy:

"Wikipedia does not accept images that are licensed for "non-commercial" use, licensed only to Wikipedia, for which permission is required for reuse, or that do not permit derivative works to be created. There are several reasons for this policy, but the short version is that Wikipedia's mission is to provide free content and having images encumbered by restrictive licensing schemes runs counter to that mission" Asher196 (talk) 21:31, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

I'm sorry to say this isn't going to be easy. You have to get the copyright holders permission to release this image to the public domain. This article explains exactly what to do and provides a sample letter you can use to get permission. This is the legal way to do this. The other way to do it is to upload the image to Wikipedia and claim to be the author of the image, and release it yourself. I don't recommend that.Asher196 (talk) 02:31, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Portage Lift Bridge

Of course the Lift Bridge is important to Keeweenaw County. So is the Mackinaw Bridge, for that matter. Let's look at the paragraph in question:

The Portage Lift Bridge crosses Portage Lake, connecting Hancock and Houghton, Michigan, by crossing over Portage Lake, which is part of the river and canal system that crosses the entire peninsula. The Portage Lift Bridge is the world's heaviest and widest double-decked vertical lift bridge. Its center span "lifts" to provide 100 feet (30 m) of clearance for ships. Since rail traffic was discontinued in the Keweenaw, the lower deck is used to accommodate snowmobile traffic in the winter. This is the only land based link between the north and south section of the Keweenaw peninsula, and is crucial.[2]

The paragraph creates the mistaken impression on a reader unfamiliar with the area that it is within Keeweenaw County. Of the whole thing, for reasons known only to the author of the paragraph, only the final sentence is in any way pertinent to Keeweenaw County - and it is only pertinent if the lift bridge should be out of commission for a significant period. If that is a serious possibility, the paragraph fails to mention it. In my opinion it does not belong in an article on Keeweenaw County, so I decline your nomination. Plazak (talk) 19:45, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Bois Blanc Light

I rewrote the article. Take a look and see what you think.Asher196 (talk) 03:55, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Oscoda-Wurtsmith

I did not intend to remove so much of the material. It was some sort of bug in the rollback function that I used. I only meant to remove the portion that I removed in my second edit. I removed it because I felt that it was written in a way that seemed to promote the Community Center's activities and that one particular event (the one in May) seemed very unnotable. I do see how including the presence of the Community Center can be notable, I just don't think that was the best way to do it. I'll go ahead and re-insert the presence of the community center. -Drdisque (talk) 02:18, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Granite Island

If there was an info box on the lighthouse (not sure there was) it's gone now. 7&6=thirteen (talk) 02:31, 17 May 2008 (UTC) Stan

I'm not sure what to do here. The article is about the island, and as such, has an island infobox. Should I add another infobox for the lighthouse?Asher196 (talk) 01:41, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Welcome back

Glad to see you're back. I hope you have your connection issues resolved....Asher196 (talk) 03:01, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

Had to depend on my neighbor's satellite connection, which is at best intermittent. Much better here. 7&6=thirteen (talk) 03:13, 28 May 2008 (UTC) Stan

[edit] Round Island Light (Michigan)

There must be a mistake on the Terry Pepper site. He lists the focal plane as 53 feet and the tower as 57 feet. That can't be right. You may want to write him and ask. The focal plane can't be less than the tower height unless tower is sitting in a hole. NPS says the tower height is 53 feet. http://www.nps.gov/history/Maritime/light/roundmi.htm....Asher196 (talk) 23:29, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

Asher:
I already did that concerning Whitefish Point Light. Part of this (I think) is that the tower is measured from the base to the top of the vent on the light. The focal height plane is measured from the center of the lens as against the mean high water mark. I wrote to him because I had the same reaction you did. Typically, one loses 2 1/2 to 4 feet from the distance form the middle of the light to the tip of the vent. The factor then is where the mean high water mark is.
I also wrote to him about Sturgeon Point Light -- he wrote to me and admitted he had it wrong.
As a result of all this correspondence, he completely redid the lighthouse tower height chart, put together a whole new spread sheet, and put in references for the source of each of his figures. He has a collection of original coast guard documents.
He also did a completely new chart, which is now the focal height plane chart. If you go to the Whitefish Point Light discussion, I put links to his two pages. As I said on the Whitefish Point discussion, he actually sent me photographs of the 1939 inventory, which listed the tower height, focal plane height, characteristics of the light, characteristics of the fog signal, and range of the light.
It would be possible (and I think Whitefish Point Light is an example), where the mean high water mark would overlap the base. This gives you some very odd looking numbers.
In the case of Round Island Light, he says the numbers from the cited Coast Guard chart happen to be identical. This is because you lose some at the top of the light, and you gain it back in the difference from the mean high water mark to the base. Take a look at the data yourself. Terry goes to considerable lengths in his discussion on the two charts to explain it. I think I understand it, and I've tried to articulate my understanding. I hope you agree.
Maybe this discussion should be put in the Round Island discussion. 7&6=thirteen (talk) 23:50, 28 May 2008 (UTC) Stan
I'm having a hard time visualizing how this happens, but I won't make an issue out of it, as I'm sure he knows what he is talking about. If you could send me a copy of that sketch, I would appreciate it.Asher196 (talk) 03:35, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Tower height vs. Focal Height

Thank you for the emails. The source of my confusion was the conflicting ways that tower height is reported in various web sources. In some places it apparently means from the ground to the ventilator ball. In others it means the height of the structure from the ground to the lens/service room. Now I'm wondering about the accuracy of many of these articles in that respect.Asher196 (talk) 15:40, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

Me too. Terry Pepper just redid his two lists (tower and focal) in his data base, with references. He did it as a result of some of my questions (particularly about Sturgeon Point). I think he's trying to be consistent, and he has original documents, so he's closer than most of the other sources. Not to mention that he's spent 15 years compiling this stuff. Of course, we have the Coast Guard light lists (historical and Volume 7), and the Michigan government list and the National Park Service inventory. As I've been working through these articles, I've put all those links into them, so it is pretty straight forward to find the right link. 7&6=thirteen (talk) 15:59, 1 June 2008 (UTC) Stan
I would also add that height from mean water mark is used by the Coast Guard in its light lists. And it is most relevant as a source for figures for triangulation by mariners (before GPS), who were trying to extrapolate their position from the sizes of the lighthouse(s) on (and from) the horizon. Ventilator balls could (and sometimes were) used, but mean water mark to focal plane is more visible over a much greater distance. I'm no Terry Pepper, but that's what the explanations in his data tables say (IMO) 7&6=thirteen (talk) 10:41, 4 June 2008 (UTC) Stan

[edit] Question

Casual question: What is template reflist|2 and how is it different from reflist? Bigturtle (talk) 23:19, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

They're actually the same template: {{reflist}}. The |2 added to the end is a template variable that causes the references to be generated in two columns instead of one (note: on some browsers, even with the |2 added, the list still displays in a single column). --- Barek (talk • contribs) - 23:33, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
See WP:CITE#Say where you found the material for more details....Asher196 (talk) 23:36, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
I have little to add. I only put those in because some of these reference lists were (a) getting long; (b) contained relatively short lines; (c) seemed to look better in the context of the article (filling up voids). As I am no expert like Barek in the finer nuances of Wiki philosophy and policy, I can't give you a citation. The downside is that the type is smaller in the "footnotes." Ultimately, this seems to be a question of aesthetic and editorial judgment, and I would imagine that opinions can and will differ on the subject. 7&6=thirteen (talk) 10:33, 4 June 2008 (UTC) Stan


[edit] Hoffmaster State Park

Sorry, I was trying to get rid of the Contents box, which seems to show up in an awkward place. I have undone the deletion of references. Jllm06 (talk) 02:41, 11 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Thank You

Thank You for your kindness, you took the time out to encourage me on my talk page... I am new to contributing and really do want to help. It makes me feel good when I know a subject and want to contribute.  :) --Crimson Red Fox (talk) 19:43, 11 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Lighthouse infobox

In the coming days, I'm going to be creating a new Lighthouse infobox template, as I'm not happy with the current one. Some changes I want to make include allowing for user to create the text at the top of the infobox, instead of taking on the name of the article. Also, I want to create separate Tower height and Focal height headings instead of the current Height and Elevation. Are there any other changes you would like to see?....Asher196 (talk) 22:01, 11 June 2008 (UTC)

As a general rule - it's a bad idea to fragment the infobox usage. Better to tweak and adjust the current infobox rather than create a second one. Every time multiple infoboxes get created, there ends up being a project at some point down the road to merge them all together again. Why not skip the middle step and go straight to having a single unified version that allows more options than the current one, but is still compatible with the older usage of the infobox?
If you need a hand with the template syntax, let me know. I'm not an expert, but between another wiki on which I used to be an administrator plus my time here, I've created and modified several. --- Barek (talk • contribs) - 22:57, 11 June 2008 (UTC)


If you look at one of the infoboxes that I've cobbled together, (Sturgeon Point Light?) maybe, I think I have everything that needs to be in there. You need original lens, current lens, original range, current range, NHR Number, station creation date (real useful if there have been multiple lights on a site), tower creation date, intensity, markings, shape, owner, operator (if different than owner), website (maybe?), characteristic, disposition of previous lens, location, active, open to public. And of course, there are those other things that show up in lighthouse info boxes, but I don't remember them, and don't know what they are (they're probably from overseas). State historic register status? I think that's all I can think of for now. 7&6=thirteen (talk) 22:20, 11 June 2008 (UTC) Stan
You could also have a section for "Private Aid to Navigation" which one would put "Yes" or "No" on. This relates to USCG status on certain lights that are no longer officially "Coast Guard" lights. Sometimes the Coast Gurd talks about dates (e.g., May to Nov.) during which a light is operational. I think the Structure includes whether it is free standing etc., and is subject to interpretation. If you look at Volume 7 of the Coast Guard material, there may be other things they deem relevant. Hope that helps! 7&6=thirteen (talk) 22:42, 11 June 2008 (UTC) Stan


[edit] How to add user icons on my talk page

Thirteen,
How do I add user icons on my talk page? I've found the icons but don't know what to do to put them on my page. --Crimson Red Fox (talk) 23:17, 11 June 2008 (UTC)

Fox: I don't know. But Barek will, and he monitors this page. 7&6=thirteen (talk) 23:29, 11 June 2008 (UTC) Stan