Talk:32 County Sovereignty Movement

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Contents 1 Legal organisation 2 Pardon? 3 Interview -- Anything from here worth mentioning? 4 Cat

[edit] Legal organisation

I created the Category:Legal organisations in Ireland and Britain as I felt that such a category was required owing to the insistence by one contributer, User:Weggie that the organisation in question, the 32 County Sovereignty Movement, be cataloged according to the definition of one government authority, in this case the US State Department. By including the new category, I wanted to stress the fact that this organsation is not prohibited in Britain or Ireland and operates openly.--Damac 09:39, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Pardon?

No evidence that RIRA has even targeted the British?

• Attack on British Army base in County Derry?
• Attack on British Army base in County Derry?
• Attack on MI6?
• Attack on army training camp in Magilligan?
• Attack on British Army base in County Derry?

And so on.... One Night In Hackney₃₀₃ 18:25, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Interview -- Anything from here worth mentioning?

Former Omagh councillor Francis Mackey, chairman of the 32 County Sovereignty Movement, which many believe is politically linked to the Real IRA, said his organisation sees the way forward as political, involving the UN which could address the "illegal occupation of Ireland".

However, that organisation has not delivered on its responsibility to small nations seeking self-determination, he said. "If the (R)IRA are saying that they are going back to war, that's a strong indication that they see no progress by looking at peaceful alternatives... by looking to the UN or indeed the British government. I wouldn't confuse peace with a deliberate normalisation of British rule.

"British soldiers are still here, British helicopters are still flying around Omagh and mid-Tyrone. There is also a very deliberate process of criminalisation of those who disagree with Stormont and British rule in Ireland."

Mr Mackey said that the Sinn Féin and the "Provisional movement's leadership" are complicit in that.

"We would articulate the argument that the SF leadership have failed the republican base; they have violated Irish national sovereignty. They have been forced to admit that the Good Friday Agreement is not a republican document, and that it is not national self-determination therefore admitting that it's a violation of national sovereignty, so what is it that these great leaders have got from a republican position?

"They are not espousing republicanism any more and they are following in the steps of de Valera after 1922. They should relinquish the name of Sinn Féin before they sully it any more."

Asked if, as a politician he would ever say to the RIRA put down your arms and seek your goals in a peaceful and political way the 32CSM chairman said, "That wouldn't be a role that I have any responsibility in nor indeed would the Sovereignty movement. The only people who would have that role in an international conflict is the United Nations."

(http://www.nwipp-newspapers.com/UH/free/349259728115496.php)

24.32.208.58 (talk) 02:33, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Cat

As has been pointed out in previous edit summaries only the RIRA appear on the list, not the 32CSM. The Americans consider them the same and this should be mentioned, but only the RIRA are on the list. --Domer48 (talk) 08:58, 19 April 2008 (UTC)

Try reading page 40375 of the list. --69.248.59.67 (talk) 09:10, 19 April 2008 (UTC)

Read it and? --Domer48 (talk) 09:23, 19 April 2008 (UTC)

Weep? The page clealy shows the designation. --69.248.59.67 (talk) 09:25, 19 April 2008 (UTC)

You have breached WP:3RR, please self revert, or I will report the breach. Use the talk page, I will assist you all that I can to place the information you wish to add. FOR EXAMPLE: The link provides a number of different designation, establish which one using a source that is both WP:V and WP:RS. I would also suggest you read WP:TPG, WP:NPA and WP:AGF, your comments are not helpful. --Domer48 (talk) 09:36, 19 April 2008 (UTC)

Pretty interesting that you chose to report me, given that you violated the 3RR rule, and if fact did so while I only had two reverts:

• Diff 1
• Diff 2
• Diff 3

I decided not to report you out of courtesy. I wish you had done the same. You didn't, and the admins decided to take no action, so that's fine too.

As you may know, the only list that counts as to what the FTOs are is the list published in the Federal Register, in accordance with Section 219 (2)(a)(ii) of the Immigration and Nationality Act, as amended. In order to prevent legal loop holes, the Department of State frequently designates many different branches and fronts of FTOs as FTOs themselves. After 9/11, the government became very serious about cracking down on "charities" that give their money to terrorists. Under the Bush Doctrine, they themselves are considered terrorist organzations. Consequentally, the list of FTOs has ballooned to an unmanagable size. When the State Department mentions FTOs in press releases, it often leaves out these second-tier FTOs because having a 200 page press release would pretty much subvert the purpose of a press release to begin with.

The page I liked to clearly amends the Federal Register to add 32 County Sovereignty Movement as a FTO. It lists the Real Irish Republican Army to be an alias of the 32 County Sovereignty Movement. Ironically, by your logic, Real Irish Republican Army should be edited to say "Thie group isn't a designated foreign terrorist organzation, but only an alias of one," given that the 32 County Sovereignty Movement is listed as the primary name (although, to be fair, the RIRA also is listed as a primary one).

I find it most strange that you seem to be willing to admit that the Department of State considers the 32 County Sovereignty Movement to be an FTO, but object to it being stated that the Department of State has designated it as one. There is no difference. The Immigration and Nationality Act doesn't set up some system under which some FTOs are only "considered" and others are "designated." Either a group has been designated as an FTO, or it hasn't. There is a process that has to be done for designation to occur (the Congress must be advised, the Secretary of State must draft a designation, the Secretary of the Treasury must concur, etc.) This process was carried out for the 32CSM, and it was designated as an FTO in the Federal Register. It could not have gotten in there without designation having taken place.

From what I understand by your comment about verifyabilty, you don't consider the Federal Register itself to be to meet WP:V as to what the Federal Register says. Is that correct?--69.248.59.67 (talk) 20:45, 19 April 2008 (UTC)