Talk:.408 Chey Tac

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Contents 1 vs 338 Lapua 2 Barrel section 3 Lutz Möller's .408 Cheyenne Tactical Bullets Page (point of view) 4 Muzzle brake 5 References 6 .408 Chey Tac “close range” projectile performance claim 7 WikiProject Military history/Assessment/Tag & Assess 2008

[edit] vs 338 Lapua

How does this compare to the 338 Lapua Magnum caliber? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 82.131.210.162 (talk • contribs).

You might want to check your talk page about the tip on signing your comments.

And, as far as I know, .408 Cheytac is plenty superior ballistically, but hardly worth it (taking into account cost, weight, ballistics calculations and whatnot to actually get ranges beyond 338 Lapua). But I only know what I've read, so I'm a poor substitute for an expert. If you really must know, maybe you should try to contact Dean Michaelis. --Crimson30 16:06, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Barrel section

While the Cheytac Intervention is inevitably tied to this cartridge, this article is about the cartridge only and a seperate article already exists on the CheyTac Intervention. Please keep info on the rifle at its article. --Crimson30 16:20, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Lutz Möller's .408 Cheyenne Tactical Bullets Page (point of view)

(English is not my native language) Please don't link to this site. There are parts on this site that "glorify the Nazis in WW2 and there are also anti-semitic parts". --84.59.139.168 19:37, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

Attribution and citation are especially important for claims against a person. The solution, as with other controversial claims, is to put the accusation in quotes and identify who said it.

The Federal Republic of Germany has, as a legacy of their past, strict laws against propagating Nazism or Anti-Semitism and will try violators. Everyone in Germany can go to the police or the legal authorities and bring a charge against someone without revealing their identity to the accused. The public prosecutor then has to decide if the accusation requires legal action or is inadmissible.

[edit] Muzzle brake

The .408 Chey Tac's extremely light recoil is attributed to the McArthur PGRS Muzzle Break that was designed by Master Gunsmith and Firearm Inventor, Bruce D. McArthur owner of The Flint & Frizzen Gun Shop in Clarkston, Michigan. It is considered by many in the firearms industry to be the most effective muzzle break ever designed (threaded to the guns muzzle). McArthur designed it to strip gases from the projectile before it leaves the brake. 19:37, 20 May 2007 84.59.139.168

Thank you for your contribution on the McArthur muzzle brake. This article focuses on the .408 Chey Tac cartridge and its rather special projectiles and ballistic concept. There is another article that focuses on muzzle brakes where this information would fit in fine. A McArthur muzzle brake was fitted on the first .408 Chey Tac test rifle, but for the production CheyTac Intervention rifles another muzzle brake/suppressor system was chosen. The .408 Chey Tac produces a lot of recoil like every other very big high pressure cartridge, so fitting an efficient muzzle brake is almost mandatory if an operator wants to avoid developing bad shooting habits or injuries. Francis Flinch 19:15, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

Sorry that is simply not true! Chey Tac purchased over 100 of the muzzle breaks from Bruce McArthur's Company. Every Chey Tac Rifle that I have ever seen in pictures or Used in the movie "Shooter" were Bruce McArthur's Design. Unless they are reproducing the break and have stolen his design.

Thanks for clarifying this matter. Please write something on the McArthur PGRS Muzzle Brake and its efficiency in the muzzle brake article. A picture of this muzzle brake and an explanation why it is so efficient would be nice. Francis Flinch 08:25, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] References

Someone did a lot of work on this article, but it needs to really use the standard wiki reference model. I've done some cleanup as I could find it, and added fact tags for areas that need specific citations. It would be great if someone familiar with the reference material could go through and connect the statements to the correct sources. That would help a lot turning this into a very nice article. Arthurrh 08:45, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] .408 Chey Tac “close range” projectile performance claim

I saw a recent edit and removal of this edit on the .408 Chey Tac “close range” projectile performance claim that made me realize a ≈ 122 cm (48 in) high dangerous space (the area between first catch and first graze) is very hard to achieve for a 0 to 1000 yd trajectory for a rifle zeroed in at 1000 yd. Google for “THEORY OF SMALL ARMS FIRE ” for a paper that explains those and other relevant professional terms quite clearly.

The CheyTac information papers mentioned in the External links section contained this claim: 305gr. Battlefield Domination Round (BDR). The 305grain BDR round is used for rapid defense engagements from the rifle out to 1000. The maximum ordinate of this projectile over the 1000 yards range is 48 inches. The operator places an rifle sights elevation setting of 1000 yards and then aims at the mid thigh point of any target from 0 to 1000 yards away. The high velocity (3500 fps) and low maximum ordinate makes the flight time extremely short (1 second to 1000 yards), which makes the gun able to engage targets to 1000 yards about every 3 seconds. It is much less time for a semi-automatic gun. The normal data needed, such as range, winds, and environmental conditions are not needed at such high velocities.

Curiosity made me start an external ballistics prediction program (the Pesja based software used has no trouble predicting this kind of supersonic trajectories) to investigate the trajectory. Under International Standard Atmosphere sea level conditions a 0.612 BC projectile propelled to a muzzle velocity of 1067 m/s (3500 ft/s) would offer a dangerous space of ≈ 161 cm (63 in) high in a flat terrain scenario. Aiming at mid thigh height as the claim states changes things a bit. It reduces the realistic available dangerous space to ≈ 122 cm (48 in). The above ballistic setup would offer a 122 cm (48 in) high dangerous space up to ≈ 848 yd under international standard atmosphere sea level conditions. The computer prediction for the flight time to 1000 yd was ≈ 1.15 s. Is it possible to obtain a ≈ 122 cm (48 in) high dangerous space and a 1 s flight time to 1000 yd range at international standard atmosphere sea level conditions? Yes, but at a muzzle velocity of ≈ 1200 m/s (3940 ft/s). Could the CheyTac claim be that wrong? When I entered the 0.945 BC of the long-range 419 grain bullet, I suddenly saw figures that came close to the claimed performance figures. This suggests the writer of the claim mixed up the BC’s of the 305 and 419 grain projectiles.

Francis Flinch (talk) 18:37, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

Since it seems fairly clear that the claim is false, and it's currently listed as unsourced I think as well, we should probably just remove it. Speculations about whether they confused the BCs etc are original research and we should leave it for a third-party source to fix or provide new information. AliveFreeHappy (talk) 18:57, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

Odd ballistic claims often have to do with normal mistakes, but tricks (like choosing high elevations) to let projectiles move trough less dense air are also sometimes deliberately applied by manufacturers. So being critical towards/checking external ballistics claims is not unwise.

I suggest this edit without external ballistics (we can refer to the CheyTac paper): Lost River Ballistic Technologies also designed a 305 grain (19.76 g) Battlefield Domination Round (BDR). The BDR is loaded with a 305 grain (19.76 g) (claimed G1 BC = 0.612) bullet and is intended for short and medium range application using the point blank range aiming method.^[1] I will change the text accordingly in a few days unless someone suggest other alternatives.

Francis Flinch (talk) 12:57, 15 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] WikiProject Military history/Assessment/Tag & Assess 2008

Article reassessed and graded as start class. Referencingand appropriate inline citation guidelines not met. Add a reference for the use by Turkish Military and I see this be a B easily. --dashiellx (talk) 16:25, 24 April 2008 (UTC)