Talk:.38 Super

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Contents 1 Headstamp 2 Special Operations substantiation 3 WPMILHIST 4 .38 ACP 5 Should this article be split?

[edit] Headstamp

My Speer #13 manual says that the official headstamp is "38 Super Auto +P" to help differentiate between modern 38 Super ammo and older Colt 38 ACP ammo. I'm not sure if this has ever been a real problem, though, at least not since the 1950s, as I don't think there have been many pistols chambered for the lower powered 38 ACP other than Colt's 1900/1902 models.

I have some doubts about the appeal of the 38 Super as an armour-peircing round, and particularly its development to fight 1930s gangsters armored cars.

It has been reported in some cable TV documentaries that *Browning Automatic Rifles* (BARs) were popular with some gangsters (Dillon and/or Bonnie and Clyde) and some law enforcement officers (those that ambushed Bonnie & Clyde used a BAR, in addition to other weapons) due to the .30-06 rifle cartridge's ability to penetrate car sheet metal. But this preference was established large because of the inability of PISTOL rounds to reliably punch through cars, and the BAR used a real rifle round.

Other strikes against this theory are the fact that Colt released it in 1929, long before the 1930s gangster phenomenon, and currently the number of 38 Super pistols available is pretty small and usually limited to high-end target and competition weapons.

The .357 Magnum notion is even less so -- the .357 Mag was originally sold as the ."357 Registered Magnum" and was literally "registered" by S&W and sold in limited numbers as a collectors item. It became popular and had some hunting appeal, and gainsed popularity with some law enforcement organizations due its increased power and backwards compatibility with the widely-used .38 Special.

I don't doubt that some law enforcement organizations and even some specific "famous" officers claimed 38 Super or 357 Mag as armor piercing rounds, but that's relative to 45 Auto and 38 Special, not an absolute.

Most likely, by "armor" they would've been referring to the padded vests popular among criminals of the time, which .38 Super and .357 Magnum would indeed pierce far more effectively than the low-velocity .45 ACP. Whether .38 Super was developed for that purpose has no bearing on whether it got the job done, which it and .357 Magnum both did. 71.203.209.0 03:11, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Special Operations substantiation

I'd like to see the claims that this is an armor-piercing-capable round substantiated. I've never heard that, and am an avid .38 Super shooter. Furthermore, specops seem to use carbines rather than pistol rounds for close work (observe the springfield 16 socom, and FN SCAR rifles, to say nothing of the M4). Avriette 20:28, 30 December 2005 (UTC)

Any projectile with enough speed behind it becomes armor piercing by sheer physics. For example there's the 7.62x25 Tokarev pistol round; It's construction is the same as any other FMJ ball round, simply lead with a copper jacket. But it's speed allows it to easily defeat Class II vests. --Mfree 17:36, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] WPMILHIST

The WPMILHIST tag has been removed due to this article not being military related.--Oldwildbill 09:15, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] .38 ACP

I have to disagree that the .38 ACP was Browning's least successful semi-rimmed cartridge. That dishonor would go to the 9mm Browning Long. According to Bady's "Colt Automatic Pistols," the Colt M1902 Military Model and M1903 Pocket Hammer Model pistols in .38 ACP were popular enough that Colt kept them in production until 1927. This is, of course, when the .38 Super was introduced. D.E. Watters 04:30, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Should this article be split?

.38 ACP and .38 Super may have basically the same dimensions and a shared design history, but the same is true of the 7.63x25 Mauser and 7.62x25 Tokarev. Or, for that matter, 7.62×51 NATO and .308 Winchester. For all their similarities, they're not the same cartridge. 71.203.209.0 03:03, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

DONE I thought it was strange myself. They should have their own articles. Arthurrh 03:07, 3 September 2007 (UTC)