Talk:.30 Carbine

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[edit] Frozen Soldiers

Can someone actually find primary source documentation that the .30 carbine failed to kill frozen soldiers? Am refutting, but removing.

Use in Hanguns included the Kimball Semi automatic pistol.

I have heard various arguments about stoppong power, including suggestions that some of the complaints were based on missing the target. no primary doc refs though, sorry

I've heard firsthand stories from Korean War vets about the .30 Carbine's lack of immediate stopping power after multiple direct hits. As with most anecdotal evidence, there is probably a substantial amount of truth behind it, padded with hyperbole and exaggeration, reinforced by the anecdotal evidence of others. That's a good point about missing the targets. I wouldn't want to be hit by multiple .30 Carbine slugs from an M1 or M2 Carbine, even if I were wearing a heavy ChiCom jacket. Twalls 15:32, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

But in Iraq some of the Insurgents took narcotics and a burst of 5.56 ammo didn't stop them. The .30 carbine is more muzzle power than most semi-auto pistol rounds. That heavy jacket would'nt stop any common millitary round unless it was kelver but that was the 50's Uber555 15:04, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Dominican Republic's Model 2 Cristobal carbine

Perhaps we should mention the Dominican Republic's Model 2 Cristobal selective-fire carbine that is chambered for the .30 Carbine. Detailed information is available in the 1989-90 Jane's Infantry Weapons. I can post information from said book as necessary. 66.191.19.217 04:26, 21 October 2007 (UTC)


[edit] WikiProject Military history/Assessment/Tag & Assess 2008

Article reassessed and graded as start class. Referencingand appropriate inline citation guidelines not met. --dashiellx (talk) 11:28, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] References for "Civilian use" section

The first statement of the section is attributed to a reference. Several other statements are not, including what I assume to be expert opinions: "is considered", "are considered", "causing little tissue damage". My attempts to tag these inline have been reverted twice, so I'll leave my concern here. The reverting editor, Asams10, claims references support the statements so I don't understand the reluctance to explain which reference. There are several references listed and the online references do not support the statements. Since these are (apparently) expert opinions, and possibly contentious, our readers require the ability to verify the statements presented as facts. Please cite accordingly. Thanks. --Ds13 (talk) 20:23, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

Every sentence does not require an inline citation, otherwise every article would be 90% citations. The references listed support the statements. If you disagree, read the references and then remove the material that is both dubious and uncited. Until then, your spam merely serves to cast doubt on referenced and verifiable information. That they are possibly contentious is your conclusion also not supported by the statements that you tagged. These are common knowledge, echoed in and verifiable by the references. When I find time, I will cite two other references in my library. There is no 'citation emergency' that would require the tags as the text are neither dubious nor disputed. --'''I am Asamuel''' (talk) 21:54, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
I see no "citation emergency" (your words). The inline {{fact}} template is considered good practice, and let me remind you why I'm using it here: This template is used in articles to identify sentences or short passages which are incomplete without an inline citation. ... Editors frequently use this template to "tag" material which they see as questionable or weak, but not obviously invalid. The date field in the template allows editors lots of time to respond with reliable sources before anyone should reasonably delete it. I consider this the polite way to raise the verifiability issue while still giving it enough visibility that a passing reader or editor will see the need for action and contribute a solution. I'm sorry you see this as "spam" because I see it as a fine way to ensure everything in an article is verifiable. It would be fantastic if you could find sources in your library. In the mean time, I will tag them again. Take your time and don't take it personally... nobody is going to delete the unverified facts. I don't believe your "common knowledge" argument is sound in a niche article like this; effectiveness of ammunition is not common enough knowledge to let statements like this slip by without pointing to a reliable expert source. --Ds13 (talk) 23:47, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
Wow, I 100% disagree that what's printed there -- echoed in the REFERENCED MATERIAL -- is weak or qustionable let alone invalid. You, sir, difer wildly in opinion than the VAST majority of writers on this subject. That you disagree is not bad, but your fact tags are SPAM, pure and simple. A rose, by any other name... --'''I am Asamuel''' (talk) 02:11, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
If it's echoed in the reference material, just supply a citation to it and be done with this discussion. The tags simply request reliable sources for those statements and you're reluctant to name and cite them, yet you claim they exist. It doesn't matter if my opinion (or yours) agrees with the vast majority of writers on a topic or not. Majority belief and true facts aren't what qualifies material for Wikipedia. The threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth—that is, whether readers are able to check that material added to Wikipedia has already been published by a reliable source, not whether we think it is true. Editors should provide a reliable source for any material that is challenged. --Ds13 (talk) 02:53, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
Uh, four of the 6 support the statements, haven't read the other two. It's REFERENCED, just not inline. If you doubt the statements, read the references or provide your own to refute them. I'm not going to do the research again for you. --'''I am Asamuel''' (talk) 03:19, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
As you suggested, I've just re-read 3 of the 6 references (#1: Winchester Ammunition, #4: The Box O Truth, and #6: The .30 Carbine Blackhawk). Those are three I can read right now. None support either of the tagged statements: 1) full-jacket ineffectiveness for self-defense, or 2) hollow-point effectiveness for self-defense. You're claiming that at least one of those three I read supported the statements and they don't. As a result, I've removed the unsourced statements. --Ds13 (talk) 03:46, 7 June 2008 (UTC)