Talk:.308 Winchester

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The 308 Winchester and 7.62X51 are identical cartridgesThe cartridege was developed in the USA as a commercial round with an Imperial measurement ie .308 inches. The cartridge was adopted in Europe where all military calibers- even in the UK who still use miles instead of kilometres- all calibers are metric hence 7.62x51 millimetres. What differs and confuses people is that headspace 'field' gauges for military weapons are normally more lenient than 'field' for commercial rifles. Obviously a cartridge case having been fired in a military rifle on the limit of the military 'field' gauge can never be chambered in a commercial rifle unless it is full resized.

Just to confuse the issue- my 'military' FN FAL semi automatic rifle is stamped 'cal 308' as it was sold in Rhodesia in the 70's as a 'sporting' weapon whereas my Musgrave single shot Bisley competition rifle is stamped 'Cal 7.62'The Musgrave competition '7.62' has all chamber dimensions on minimum and will not chamber any round fired in another 7.62/308 (without full sizing the case)whilst the semi auto '308' has 'field' dimensions and will chamber just about any fired 308/7.62

Brian41.244.122.31 15:21, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] .308 vx 7.62x51

I noted that this article says the dimensions for 7.62 x 51 are different than the .308 Winchester. Also, there are separate articles for each of these rounds, that maybe should be merged into one article, since they are really variants. Regarding the dimensional difference, the referenced link on the 7.62 x 51 mm NATO article goes to a source that does seem to be authoritative. Can someone try to check this out and post a reliable source for the stated dimensional difference? I've only found some sources that wouldn't pass WP:RS that seem to say older military rifles may have a slightly difference headspace. To save time, here are the sources I have checked:

• SAME The Handloader's Manual of Cartridge Conversions, Book by John J. Donnelly, Stoeger Publishing, 1987, ISBN 978-0883172698 p. 356
• SAME Handbook for Shooters & Reloaders vol I, Book by P.O. Ackley; Plaza Publishing, 1962, ISBN 978-9992948811 p. 420
• SAME Designing and Forming Custom Cartridges, Book by Ken Howell, Precision Shooting, 1995, ISBN 0-9643623-0-9 p. 228
• SAME Hornady Handbook of Cartridge Reloading vol I, Sixth Edition; Book by Hornady Mfg Co, 2003 pp 384,391
• SAME * Accurate Smokeless Powders Loading Guide Number Two (Revised), Book by Accurate Arms Co, Wolfe Publishing, 2000 p. 260

Note that for those who don't have access to them, the 2nd and 3rd references are books devoted almost exclusively to cartridge drawings and dimensions. Probably we need someone who has a more military focused reference manual, I suspect that's what's missing. Or perhaps it's just tolerances - see http://www.armalite.com/library/techNotes/tnote11.htm Thanks in advance. Arthurrh 21:44, 14 July 2007 (UTC)

.308 Winchester and 7.62x51mm NATO
Case Specifications

	.308 Winchester	C.I.P. max. dimensions	7.62x51mm NATO	Difference . 308 Win./7.62 NATO
Bullet Dia.	0.308"	0.308"	0.308"	0
Neck Dia.	0.344"	0.343"	0.338"	0.006"
Shoulder Dia.	0.454"	0.454"	0.447"	0.007"
Base Dia.	0.470"	0.471"	0.466"	0.004"
Rim Dia.	0.470"	0.473"	0.470"	0
Rim Thck.	0.049"	0.067	NA	NA
Case Length	2.015"	2.015"	2.018"	0.005"
Cartridge Length	2.75"	2.80"	2.75"	0

The following table was generated from data referenced in the book Cartridges of the World, 9th Edition by Frank C. Barnes (Edited by M.L. McPherson), Krause Publications, 2000, ISBN 0-87341-909-X p.90 (.308 Winchester) and p.345 (7.62x51mm NATO) and the 2007 C.I.P. TDCC.

This is the reference point I was referring to when I wrote the statement "The 7.62 × 51 mm is smaller by a few thousandths of an inch in some dimensions". I will note it in the article. I'm currently attempting to locate the NATO specifications for 7.62x51mm to see what they have to say regarding case measurements and how those relate to SAAMI specs for .308 Winchester. It is entirely possible that the data from my source is simply incorrect, though I do consider the source authoritative.

I don't think there can be much argument when it comes to chambering specs. They're very widely reported to be different.

Raygun 09:05, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

Excellent work! Also note that what you've come up with shows 7.62 NATO to be smaller than .308, which matches what I've heard: 7.62 NATO in .308 chambers is "OK", the reverse can be an issue. Hga 09:47, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for the info. I added a C.I.P. cartridge drawing and provided a link to the C.I.P. TDCC rulings on the .308 Winchester in the article. Now there are 3 dimensions sets. It seems the UK MOD and NATO use the C.I.P. proofing pressure standard for this cartridge. This does not rule out that the 7.62 NATO dimensions differ from the C.I.P. .308 Winchester dimensions. To avoid problems it is normal that factory cartridges produced in C.I.P. countries are slightly smaller dimensioned than the here quoted maximum by C.I.P. allowed dimensions. Francis Flinch (talk) 18:52, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Cartridge dimensions diagram

Why are the Cartridge dimensions in metric? This Cartridge was designed by a US company long before metric was ever used in the USA. The USA still has not adopted the metric system. The Cartridge dimensions diagram is confusing to Americans. Since the Cartridge was designed by an American company, by Americans, for Americans - the dimensions should be in inches, not metric. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 168.39.183.58 (talk) 16:01, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

It probably has something to do with the fact that the United States is one of only three countries world-wide who have not at least partially adopted the metric system. The .308 in the form of the 7.62x51mm NATO is widely deployed, and as such it only makes sense that the measurements are in metric. I do, however, wish there was an alternative Image, or a version with both. Scott Paeth (talk) 07:27, 10 June 2008 (UTC)