User talk:219.93.174.110

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[edit] Early issues

I'd like to focus on unitarian (small c) doctrine here, i.e., non-trinitarian Christian ideas. The UU church is only one example, albeit the best known.

Over the weekend, I hope to get the chance to compare Unitarianism and Universalism each with the Unification Church. Since I was a UU before joining the UC, I might actually be able to do this. Cheers. --Ed Poor

---

Shouldn't this page be deleted, and replaced with a redirect to the article on the Unitarian-universalists?

I agree. Republishing a bunch of stuff from 1911 about such a dynamic religious tradition is very misleading. This content could be saved in a separate article about the history of unitarianism or something, but the enduring characteristic of unitarianism which all modern unitarians I know talk about is its progressive or reformist or heretical nature. NealMcB 04:56, 2004 May 9 (UTC)

This page had in my view a fair degree of bias, which I attempted to rectify. Please feel free to comment.

The main changes I put in are following : The principal reason to deny the "Christian-ness" of Unitarians is dt lack of belief in the trinity + lack of belief in the God head of Christ. The rejection of the unitarian baptism is simply expression of this much deeper conflict.

Further at the bottom I altered two things: I do not believe it is fair to make semi-quantitative judgements about peace and harmony in other religious movements, at least not in an encyclopaedic text, nor do I believe that similar minded religious people are "progressive", though they might feel this way, but others might feel different - hence I have edited this reference too. Refdoc 19:43, 15 Dec 2003 (UTC)

[edit] neutrality concerns in 'impact and criticism'

In naming Unitarianism a heresy the author does neither cites sources, nor speaks to any diversity of Christian opinion. This gives the erronious impression that Unitarianism is universally considered heresy. The phrase "Orthodox Protestants" is not defined, which leaves it too vague. 'Orthodox' is often used as a self-labelling term by Protestans groups to validate their own theology and doctrine. 'Heterodox' is used in a derisive way for Protestant groups that do not agree with them. I would be very surprised to learn that there is any universally accepted definition of Protestant Orthodoxy because of the diversity of Protestantism.

The idea that "...toleration of Unitarianism, as well as other forms of theological Liberalism, signalled the religious decadence of the West" is a point of view limited to some Fundamentalist, Evangelical, and other theologically conservative groups, and should be identified as such. The critique of Unitarian churches as 'dead' is also from a particular point of view in a discrete group of Christians and should be identified as such. In seeking to critique Unitarians, the author must fairly reflect the diversity of Christian and other opinion. There is also nothing said about the impact of Unitarianism on religion and soceity, even though the section is titled "Impact and Criticism."
unsigned comment 16:43, 6 August 2005 207.69.136.199

I've changed the emphases of the section considerably, by adding new material. — Mark (Mkmcconn) ** 06:52, 7 August 2005 (UTC)

[edit] revised intro

Unitarianism is a system of Christian thought and religious observance which asserts that the singleness and simplicity of God are contradicted by the doctrine of the Trinity, and therefore rejects that doctrine. The term is also used to refer to Unitarian Universalism.

Some other Christians hold that denial of the trinity and the consequent lack of belief in the deity of Jesus Christ are positions untenable to Christianity, and that Unitarians are therefore followers of a non-Christian religion. They further point to what they regard as the invalidity of baptism administered without use of the trinitarian formula.

After a weekend of study, I've put in place a revised intro. I think it gives a broader and more up-to-date view of the essential and enduring characteristics of Unitarians. Also, currently perhaps 90% of Unitarians, in the US at least, would not consider their movement or themselves to be Christian. Details on what some Christians think of baptism (which isn't even practiced in any UU congregations I know of) don't seem very apropos. NealMcB 04:45, 2004 May 10 (UTC)

From above: "...90% of Unitarians...would not consider...themselves to be Christian..."

Perhaps the error of this is in the assumption that "Christian" equals "Orthodox", a mindset emanating from the latter far more than the former. In my somewhat diverse and lengthy experience, those of Unitarian persuasion are a diverse group who consider themselves true followers of Christ while regarding those who frivously reject true believers in Christ (such as themselves) counterfeits. Many, perhaps most, do not consider alternate views (trinitarianism, oneness or modalism, etc.) to affect others' standing with Christ. Further explanation can be found at http://www.scatteredsheep.com/nature_of_god.htm . Phil Maxwell phil@scatteredsheep.com

You did'nt go back far enough. The fact that there is only one God go as far back as the creation. The concept of the trinity did'nt materialize until the Roman Catholics decreed it in 325 AD. --Emico 15:18, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Text added to article by anon

An anon user added the following to the beginning of the 'Origins' section:

PLEASE NOTE: THE WRITER OF THIS ARTICLE HAS THE POSITION ON GOD OF UNITARIANISM CONFUSED WITH THE POSITION OF APOSTOLIC ONENESS CHURCHES. THEIR VIEWS ARE EXTREMELY DIFFERENT FROM UNITARIANS WHO DO NOT ACCEPT THE LORDSHIP OF JESUS CHRIST. ONENESS APOSTOLICS WOULD RATHER LOOSE THEIR LIVES THAN DENY THE LORDSHIP OF THEIR GOD, JESUS THE CHRIST.

I cut it from the article but put it here for discussion if the point needs noting - David Gerard 10:20, 28 Sep 2004 (UTC)

I'd like to focus on unitarian (small c) doctrine here, i.e., non-trinitarian Christian ideas. The UU church is only one example, albeit the best known.

Over the weekend, I hope to get the chance to compare Unitarianism and Universalism each with the Unification Church. Since I was a UU before joining the UC, I might actually be able to do this. Cheers. --Ed Poor

---

Shouldn't this page be deleted, and replaced with a redirect to the article on the Unitarian-universalists?

I agree. Republishing a bunch of stuff from 1911 about such a dynamic religious tradition is very misleading. This content could be saved in a separate article about the history of unitarianism or something, but the enduring characteristic of unitarianism which all modern unitarians I know talk about is its progressive or reformist or heretical nature. NealMcB 04:56, 2004 May 9 (UTC)

This page had in my view a fair degree of bias, which I attempted to rectify. Please feel free to comment.

The main changes I put in are following : The principal reason to deny the "Christian-ness" of Unitarians is dt lack of belief in the trinity + lack of belief in the God head of Christ. The rejection of the unitarian baptism is simply expression of this much deeper conflict.

Further at the bottom I altered two things: I do not believe it is fair to make semi-quantitative judgements about peace and harmony in other religious movements, at least not in an encyclopaedic text, nor do I believe that similar minded religious people are "progressive", though they might feel this way, but others might feel different - hence I have edited this reference too. Refdoc 19:43, 15 Dec 2003 (UTC)


[edit] Conflating Unitarianism with Unitarian Universalism.

The article equates all Unitarians with UUism. This is terribly misleading, since there are three different schools of Unitarian thought:

  • Unitarian Universalism
  • Rationalist Unitarianism
  • Biblical Unitarianism

The first group is adequately defined in the article; the second is conspicuous by absence; the third is mischaracterised as a branch of the first, with the theology of its pioneers (such as Servetus) left largely to the reader's imagination.

I shall correct this when I have more time. --Teutonic Knight 14:24, 26 Nov 2004 (UTC)

The three aren't quite so separate and distinct. If I am correct, the Unitarian side of UUism grew from the Rational Unitarians, which itself grew from the Biblical Unitarians. Regardless of whether I'm correct or not, I believe you are correct that there are, at least historically, different kinds of Unitarianism. Would you be so kind as to modify the article as you see fit to clarify? - UtherSRG 17:22, 26 Nov 2004 (UTC)
While they may share a common origin, this does not make them any less separate and distinct. After all, Protestantism sprang from Catholicism, but who would say that the two are not "separate and distinct" in every essential way?
Anyhoo, I'll chuck in a few definitions to clarify the point and see how we go from there. --Teutonic Knight 12:02, 29 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Sorted. Let me know what you think. --Teutonic Knight 13:26, 29 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Nice. I've modified it some to fit the wiki format better, giving the "Forms" section a heading and therby necessitating the historical sections be grouped under another heading. I'm sure there's lots more work that's needed before this article is "complete", though. It would be good to try to point to parts in the history when Rationalist though enters the picture, since where BU and RU overlap is probably the fuzziest area. Oh, and it's Unitarian Universalism, not the other way around. *grins* - UU UtherSRG 15:02, 29 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Thanks.  :) I'm new to wiki, so you'll have to be patient while I find my way around the various protocols.  :P I'll do some more work on the historical specifics when I have more time, but the general picture is this: BU was born in the 1st Century AD; RU was born during the post-Enlightenment era (partly as a result of Christianity's encounter with the new rationalism) and UU was born when Universalism was finally taken to its logical conclusion (viz. that if God is going to save all of us at some point in the future, it obviously doesn't matter what we believe in the meantime.) --Teutonic Knight 15:46, 29 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Not a problem. We all have to work together. *grins* - UtherSRG 16:55, 29 Nov 2004 (UTC)
I like your latest edits. Great work!  :) --Teutonic Knight 10:05, 30 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Teutonic Knight, your "logical conclusion" is quite biased and is no valid ground for the article or a discussion on contemporary UUism. If belief depends solely on God's judgement on a final day, then you deny personal responsibility, and all moral behavior is based upon blackmail: behave as I like, or you are doomed. OTOH it does not correspond to historical evolution of both religious movements. --Jdemarcos 18:04, 11 September 2005 (UTC)

[edit] History section

Isn't the subtitle "Early origins" redundant? Maybe, "Origins and early history" soverman 17 Jun 2005 0417 (UTC)

The history section is very confusing to read, I think we need to add more summaries Sep 27th 2005

[edit] Germany

I experimented with a bullet format in the Germany section. How does this look?Tydaj 21:07, 12 Mar 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Unitarian vs. unitarian

This word has two distinct meanings whether it is capitalized or not. A Unitarian is or was a member of particular religion, Unitarianism, which is now mostly embodied in Unitarian Universalist Association. On the other hand, a unitarian is one who holds unitarian beliefs, primarily expressed as a rejection of the trinity. There are many religions which espouse unitarian beliefs, and not all Unitarians are indeed unitarian (very few Quakers quake either). To most Unitarian Universalists, I would venture to say, the question of whether there is or is not a trinity is not particularly important to their religion.

I would suggest that all "upper-case" Unitarian aspects of this page be merged with the article on Unitarian Universalism, and this one only deal with the "lower-case" unitarianism as a belief. Then links from other unitarian religions are not confused with Unitarian Universalism. shoaler 17:17, 21 Mar 2005 (UTC)

While you are correct in your assessment of the distinction between Unitarianism and unitarianism, I disagree with your solution. This article deals with (to some degree) both "U" and "u", primarily the history of the christian heresy of "u" and how it has found its way through the years. If anything, this article is lacking other avenues that unitarianism has taken besides into modern Unitarianism. Further, Unitarian Universalism is primarily a United States phenomenon; the predominant Unitarianism outside of the US is often more Christian unitarianism than Unitarian Universalism. I intive you to be bold and add sections to the article to make it more complete, as well as to do the same with other articles. - UtherSRG 21:42, Mar 21, 2005 (UTC)
Agreed. Other examples of unitarians would be of interest. The Iglesia ni Cristo is notably vigorous in unitarian belief - but currently would be very difficult to slot into the article without a major overhaul, as it doesn't fit the generalisations of the introduction and elsewhere. For instance, it's highly vociferous in its 'one true church' stance. RayGirvan 02:26, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Iglesia ni Cristo

I just knew any attempt to document this would cause problems. Beware all edits by Emico on the topic of Iglesia ni Cristo (INC). He is the subject of a current Request for Arbitration for obstructing edits on other related pages. The INC is described in The Concise Oxford Dictionary of World Religions (Ed. John Bowker. Oxford University Press, 2000) as "The largest Protestant church in the Philippines ... Based on a literal reading of the Bible, unitarian in christology..." therefore its inclusion alongside types of Bibilical Unitarianism is valid. RayGirvan 02:38, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)

  • [Oxford] defines protestants as separated or disunited from the Roman Catholic church, which the INC did not do. It's obvious your source did not research carefully either. Please check your facts thoroughly before posting. Note that Raygirvan is one of people who started the arbitration because of exchanges similar to this. --Emico 14:20, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)
    • It may be that the article, Nontrinitarian, is a better fit for the remark regarding the Iglesia ni Cristo, RayGirvan. This is not because "Protestant" and "unitarian" do not properly describe the group according to ordinary conventions. Rather, there are extraordinary conventions at work here - nontrinitarian groups sometimes strongly object to being called "Protestant". The reason given by Emico is a typical objection. Mkmcconn (Talk) 01:16, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)
      • Hmm. OK. I suppose it's down to the slant of this article, which focuses on Unitarians (the specific area of religious thought) rather than unitarians (ie non-trinitarians). Still, Oxford is a thoroughly respectable reference, so I don't feel too bad about citing its classification. RayGirvan 01:28, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)

FYI: There's an active conversation about this issue at Talk:Iglesia ni Cristo#Unitarian.

[edit] Hungarian / Romanian

I am curious as to the reason that some place names in the section Transylvania and Hungary have been changed from their Romanian name to the Hungarian form. I'm not trying to put forth an opinion on this, I'd just like to know how one would determine which is the better choice. -Tydaj 18:06, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Whether you're Hungarian or Romanian? There have been hot disputes of similar issues of Eastern European names. I'd generally go with the name that was current at the time the article was discussing; I might go with just the current name if it's well-known and the article just mentioned well-known cities.--Prosfilaes 18:38, 7 August 2005 (UTC)

But Transilvania is a part of Romania so the name must be the romanian version.

Translvania is now part of Romania, but at the time most of things in this article happened, Romania didn't even exist. We write about Constantanople and Babylon where appropriate, not Istanbul and Baghdad. --Prosfilaes 22:03, 20 August 2005 (UTC)
Another important point is that the Transylvanian Unitarian Church is mostly Hungarian-speaking, as the original (i.e. non-immigrant) population of Transylvania is, and names of individuals and places in Transylvanian Unitarian documents are always written it its Hungarian form. --Jdemarcos 17:28, 11 September 2005 (UTC)

[edit] American Unitarian Conference reference corrected

Originally the article stated that the American Unitarian Conference has a creed. Fact is, it does not. So I corrected it. Peace.


[edit] Reform Judaism Equivalent?

I understand that the Unitarians have arrived from a different tradition. Still, considering where they are today, wouldn't it be a fair assessment to make the comparison between them and Reformed Jews? --Philopedia 19:16, 11 September 2005 (UTC)

In what sense? --Tydaj 22:15, 11 September 2005 (UTC)

Unitarians follow one God, not three and accept the metaphoric content of the Hebrew Bible. They share with reform jews an anti-dogmatic, intellectual and ethical approach which emphasises tolerance and compassion; champions liberal causes, are open to scientific enquiry and feature a broad diversity of outlooks within their own ranks. Turning the question around, how can you tell them apart? --Philopedia 11:57, 12 September 2005 (UTC)

I don't see any good reason for doing that. Unitarianism is not a form of Judaism. For a comparison with Reformed Judaism, I would rather suggest a historical pro-Jewish split from Unitarianism called Sabbatarianism. --Jdemarcos 06:42, 12 September 2005 (UTC)
Unitarians follow one [Christian] God, not three - this may be true of classical (read 19th century) Unitarianism, but as Unitarianism in America became less a Christian religion and more a universal religion, the emphasis on Christian dogma was gradually removed. The process of merging with the Universalists in the late 50s and early 60s also moved the movement away from Christianity (although it did more to move Universalists away from Christianity). [They] accept the metaphoric content of the Hebrew Bible - no more so than the New Testament or the Quran or the writings of Buddha or the teachings of science, etc. - UtherSRG (talk) 14:11, September 12, 2005 (UTC)
They are similar in that both are liberal religions, but as they pointed out, there are also a number of differences. Unitarians (that aren't Unitarian Universalists) are/were still Christian, in one sense of the word or another. Jewish opinion over Jesus varies greatly, but to Unitarians he is still an important figure, even if he's not "God incarnate". --Tydaj 16:28, 12 September 2005 (UTC)
The German Unitarians in Deutsche Unitarier are certainly not Christian. --Palnatoke 06:40, 13 September 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Not Christians

Today, most Unitarian Universalists do not consider themselves Christians, even if they share some beliefs quite similar to those of mainstream Christians. Isn't it only the catholics that beleive that you have to believe in the trinity to be a christian. --Pomegranite | talk 03:13, 25 November 2005 (UTC)

No, there's quite a bit of Protestants that believe that. --Tydaj 23:38, 30 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Mainstream unitarian, Islam, Judaism

This questions are not directed to Universalists.(I would like to assume there is a mainstream unitarian church but if there is none, ok) Is Jesus still an important figure and the New Testament, the 'bible' or the most authorative document? Are Judaism and Islam unitarian or considered unitarian? Are sacraments practised or useless, eg baptism, eucharist, jewish passover, blessing,etc.--Jondel 01:19, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

A lot of the answers probably vary by particular church. There is no international Unitarian church, but there is the International Council of Unitarians and Universalists which is an association of different Unitarian and Unitarian Universalist bodies. Many more Unitarians than Unitarian Universalists consider themselves Christian. I know that, for example, the Romanian Unitarian church still places a strong emphasis on Jesus' teachings. I believe they also have something akin to confirmation. For an example of a unique Unitarian ritual, see Flower Communion, which was created to be distinct from the Eucharist and other Judeo-Christian rituals.

Often the distinction is made between "Unitarians" and "unitarians", the latter being anti-Trinitarians that do not belong to a Unitarian organization. Islam teaches that Jesus was human and that the Trinitarianism is a form of polytheism. Judaism also generally rejects Jesus being part of God, let alone a "rabbi." --Tydaj 02:19, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

We know about Islam's view on Jesus and Judaism's view. Jesus was once at least a Rabbi. Is it is hard to categorize Judaism and Islam as unitarian, since the context or Unitarian is ussually associated with Christinanity isn't it? Most are former members of mainstream Christianity(?). I think I can say that the Bible is still significant as a reference to unitarians(?). There are some Christainity associated religions like the Jehovahs and Adventists, and Iglesia ni Cristo(which I 'm trying to categorize) etc and it would be good if we could distinguish them. --Jondel 02:48, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

I would like to distinguish again or against/exclude Universalists, which is too broad. Universalists might include Buddha, Shiva, etc. and direct this question to Unitarianism only.--Jondel 02:53, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

When speaking of Unitarian Universalism, it is quite difficult to seperate the two. Unless you mean traditional Unitarianism as seperated from UUism. --Tydaj 05:16, 1 December 2005 (UTC)
In "Unitarian Universalism", the word Universalist refers historically to the Universalist Church, not to Buddha or Shiva. --Jdemarcos 21:36, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

Some denominations want to be associated with Christianity and feel that their religion is the only path. They will probably resist the idea of Universalism . In the INC talk page, an anonymous insists that INC is simply non-trinitarian and resists being associated with Unitarianism. There is a distinct section Nontrinitarianism#Other_groups_which_reject_the_Trinity_doctrine with only one member. They are as Tydaj says unitarian being anti-trinitarian. Universalism does not refer to Buddha or Shiva but the definition of Universal religion includes Buddhism and Hinduism which I'm sure the INCs will abhor being associated with. (I'm Catholic but the INC is a significant religion in the Philippines). --Jondel 00:43, 2 December 2005 (UTC)



[edit] Early issues

I'd like to focus on unitarian (small c) doctrine here, i.e., non-trinitarian Christian ideas. The UU church is only one example, albeit the best known.

Over the weekend, I hope to get the chance to compare Unitarianism and Universalism each with the Unification Church. Since I was a UU before joining the UC, I might actually be able to do this. Cheers. --Ed Poor

---

Shouldn't this page be deleted, and replaced with a redirect to the article on the Unitarian-universalists?

I agree. Republishing a bunch of stuff from 1911 about such a dynamic religious tradition is very misleading. This content could be saved in a separate article about the history of unitarianism or something, but the enduring characteristic of unitarianism which all modern unitarians I know talk about is its progressive or reformist or heretical nature. NealMcB 04:56, 2004 May 9 (UTC)

This page had in my view a fair degree of bias, which I attempted to rectify. Please feel free to comment.

The main changes I put in are following : The principal reason to deny the "Christian-ness" of Unitarians is dt lack of belief in the trinity + lack of belief in the God head of Christ. The rejection of the unitarian baptism is simply expression of this much deeper conflict.

Further at the bottom I altered two things: I do not believe it is fair to make semi-quantitative judgements about peace and harmony in other religious movements, at least not in an encyclopaedic text, nor do I believe that similar minded religious people are "progressive", though they might feel this way, but others might feel different - hence I have edited this reference too. Refdoc 19:43, 15 Dec 2003 (UTC)

[edit] neutrality concerns in 'impact and criticism'

In naming Unitarianism a heresy the author does neither cites sources, nor speaks to any diversity of Christian opinion. This gives the erronious impression that Unitarianism is universally considered heresy. The phrase "Orthodox Protestants" is not defined, which leaves it too vague. 'Orthodox' is often used as a self-labelling term by Protestans groups to validate their own theology and doctrine. 'Heterodox' is used in a derisive way for Protestant groups that do not agree with them. I would be very surprised to learn that there is any universally accepted definition of Protestant Orthodoxy because of the diversity of Protestantism.

The idea that "...toleration of Unitarianism, as well as other forms of theological Liberalism, signalled the religious decadence of the West" is a point of view limited to some Fundamentalist, Evangelical, and other theologically conservative groups, and should be identified as such. The critique of Unitarian churches as 'dead' is also from a particular point of view in a discrete group of Christians and should be identified as such. In seeking to critique Unitarians, the author must fairly reflect the diversity of Christian and other opinion. There is also nothing said about the impact of Unitarianism on religion and soceity, even though the section is titled "Impact and Criticism."
unsigned comment 16:43, 6 August 2005 207.69.136.199

I've changed the emphases of the section considerably, by adding new material. — Mark (Mkmcconn) ** 06:52, 7 August 2005 (UTC)

[edit] revised intro

Unitarianism is a system of Christian thought and religious observance which asserts that the singleness and simplicity of God are contradicted by the doctrine of the Trinity, and therefore rejects that doctrine. The term is also used to refer to Unitarian Universalism.

Some other Christians hold that denial of the trinity and the consequent lack of belief in the deity of Jesus Christ are positions untenable to Christianity, and that Unitarians are therefore followers of a non-Christian religion. They further point to what they regard as the invalidity of baptism administered without use of the trinitarian formula.

After a weekend of study, I've put in place a revised intro. I think it gives a broader and more up-to-date view of the essential and enduring characteristics of Unitarians. Also, currently perhaps 90% of Unitarians, in the US at least, would not consider their movement or themselves to be Christian. Details on what some Christians think of baptism (which isn't even practiced in any UU congregations I know of) don't seem very apropos. NealMcB 04:45, 2004 May 10 (UTC)

From above: "...90% of Unitarians...would not consider...themselves to be Christian..."

Perhaps the error of this is in the assumption that "Christian" equals "Orthodox", a mindset emanating from the latter far more than the former. In my somewhat diverse and lengthy experience, those of Unitarian persuasion are a diverse group who consider themselves true followers of Christ while regarding those who frivously reject true believers in Christ (such as themselves) counterfeits. Many, perhaps most, do not consider alternate views (trinitarianism, oneness or modalism, etc.) to affect others' standing with Christ. Further explanation can be found at http://www.scatteredsheep.com/nature_of_god.htm . Phil Maxwell phil@scatteredsheep.com

You did'nt go back far enough. The fact that there is only one God go as far back as the creation. The concept of the trinity did'nt materialize until the Roman Catholics decreed it in 325 AD. --Emico 15:18, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Text added to article by anon

An anon user added the following to the beginning of the 'Origins' section:

PLEASE NOTE: THE WRITER OF THIS ARTICLE HAS THE POSITION ON GOD OF UNITARIANISM CONFUSED WITH THE POSITION OF APOSTOLIC ONENESS CHURCHES. THEIR VIEWS ARE EXTREMELY DIFFERENT FROM UNITARIANS WHO DO NOT ACCEPT THE LORDSHIP OF JESUS CHRIST. ONENESS APOSTOLICS WOULD RATHER LOOSE THEIR LIVES THAN DENY THE LORDSHIP OF THEIR GOD, JESUS THE CHRIST.

I cut it from the article but put it here for discussion if the point needs noting - David Gerard 10:20, 28 Sep 2004 (UTC)

I'd like to focus on unitarian (small c) doctrine here, i.e., non-trinitarian Christian ideas. The UU church is only one example, albeit the best known.

Over the weekend, I hope to get the chance to compare Unitarianism and Universalism each with the Unification Church. Since I was a UU before joining the UC, I might actually be able to do this. Cheers. --Ed Poor

---

Shouldn't this page be deleted, and replaced with a redirect to the article on the Unitarian-universalists?

I agree. Republishing a bunch of stuff from 1911 about such a dynamic religious tradition is very misleading. This content could be saved in a separate article about the history of unitarianism or something, but the enduring characteristic of unitarianism which all modern unitarians I know talk about is its progressive or reformist or heretical nature. NealMcB 04:56, 2004 May 9 (UTC)

This page had in my view a fair degree of bias, which I attempted to rectify. Please feel free to comment.

The main changes I put in are following : The principal reason to deny the "Christian-ness" of Unitarians is dt lack of belief in the trinity + lack of belief in the God head of Christ. The rejection of the unitarian baptism is simply expression of this much deeper conflict.

Further at the bottom I altered two things: I do not believe it is fair to make semi-quantitative judgements about peace and harmony in other religious movements, at least not in an encyclopaedic text, nor do I believe that similar minded religious people are "progressive", though they might feel this way, but others might feel different - hence I have edited this reference too. Refdoc 19:43, 15 Dec 2003 (UTC)


[edit] Conflating Unitarianism with Unitarian Universalism.

The article equates all Unitarians with UUism. This is terribly misleading, since there are three different schools of Unitarian thought:

  • Unitarian Universalism
  • Rationalist Unitarianism
  • Biblical Unitarianism

The first group is adequately defined in the article; the second is conspicuous by absence; the third is mischaracterised as a branch of the first, with the theology of its pioneers (such as Servetus) left largely to the reader's imagination.

I shall correct this when I have more time. --Teutonic Knight 14:24, 26 Nov 2004 (UTC)

The three aren't quite so separate and distinct. If I am correct, the Unitarian side of UUism grew from the Rational Unitarians, which itself grew from the Biblical Unitarians. Regardless of whether I'm correct or not, I believe you are correct that there are, at least historically, different kinds of Unitarianism. Would you be so kind as to modify the article as you see fit to clarify? - UtherSRG 17:22, 26 Nov 2004 (UTC)
While they may share a common origin, this does not make them any less separate and distinct. After all, Protestantism sprang from Catholicism, but who would say that the two are not "separate and distinct" in every essential way?
Anyhoo, I'll chuck in a few definitions to clarify the point and see how we go from there. --Teutonic Knight 12:02, 29 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Sorted. Let me know what you think. --Teutonic Knight 13:26, 29 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Nice. I've modified it some to fit the wiki format better, giving the "Forms" section a heading and therby necessitating the historical sections be grouped under another heading. I'm sure there's lots more work that's needed before this article is "complete", though. It would be good to try to point to parts in the history when Rationalist though enters the picture, since where BU and RU overlap is probably the fuzziest area. Oh, and it's Unitarian Universalism, not the other way around. *grins* - UU UtherSRG 15:02, 29 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Thanks.  :) I'm new to wiki, so you'll have to be patient while I find my way around the various protocols.  :P I'll do some more work on the historical specifics when I have more time, but the general picture is this: BU was born in the 1st Century AD; RU was born during the post-Enlightenment era (partly as a result of Christianity's encounter with the new rationalism) and UU was born when Universalism was finally taken to its logical conclusion (viz. that if God is going to save all of us at some point in the future, it obviously doesn't matter what we believe in the meantime.) --Teutonic Knight 15:46, 29 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Not a problem. We all have to work together. *grins* - UtherSRG 16:55, 29 Nov 2004 (UTC)
I like your latest edits. Great work!  :) --Teutonic Knight 10:05, 30 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Teutonic Knight, your "logical conclusion" is quite biased and is no valid ground for the article or a discussion on contemporary UUism. If belief depends solely on God's judgement on a final day, then you deny personal responsibility, and all moral behavior is based upon blackmail: behave as I like, or you are doomed. OTOH it does not correspond to historical evolution of both religious movements. --Jdemarcos 18:04, 11 September 2005 (UTC)

[edit] History section

Isn't the subtitle "Early origins" redundant? Maybe, "Origins and early history" soverman 17 Jun 2005 0417 (UTC)

The history section is very confusing to read, I think we need to add more summaries Sep 27th 2005

[edit] Germany

I experimented with a bullet format in the Germany section. How does this look?Tydaj 21:07, 12 Mar 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Unitarian vs. unitarian

This word has two distinct meanings whether it is capitalized or not. A Unitarian is or was a member of particular religion, Unitarianism, which is now mostly embodied in Unitarian Universalist Association. On the other hand, a unitarian is one who holds unitarian beliefs, primarily expressed as a rejection of the trinity. There are many religions which espouse unitarian beliefs, and not all Unitarians are indeed unitarian (very few Quakers quake either). To most Unitarian Universalists, I would venture to say, the question of whether there is or is not a trinity is not particularly important to their religion.

I would suggest that all "upper-case" Unitarian aspects of this page be merged with the article on Unitarian Universalism, and this one only deal with the "lower-case" unitarianism as a belief. Then links from other unitarian religions are not confused with Unitarian Universalism. shoaler 17:17, 21 Mar 2005 (UTC)

While you are correct in your assessment of the distinction between Unitarianism and unitarianism, I disagree with your solution. This article deals with (to some degree) both "U" and "u", primarily the history of the christian heresy of "u" and how it has found its way through the years. If anything, this article is lacking other avenues that unitarianism has taken besides into modern Unitarianism. Further, Unitarian Universalism is primarily a United States phenomenon; the predominant Unitarianism outside of the US is often more Christian unitarianism than Unitarian Universalism. I intive you to be bold and add sections to the article to make it more complete, as well as to do the same with other articles. - UtherSRG 21:42, Mar 21, 2005 (UTC)
Agreed. Other examples of unitarians would be of interest. The Iglesia ni Cristo is notably vigorous in unitarian belief - but currently would be very difficult to slot into the article without a major overhaul, as it doesn't fit the generalisations of the introduction and elsewhere. For instance, it's highly vociferous in its 'one true church' stance. RayGirvan 02:26, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Iglesia ni Cristo

I just knew any attempt to document this would cause problems. Beware all edits by Emico on the topic of Iglesia ni Cristo (INC). He is the subject of a current Request for Arbitration for obstructing edits on other related pages. The INC is described in The Concise Oxford Dictionary of World Religions (Ed. John Bowker. Oxford University Press, 2000) as "The largest Protestant church in the Philippines ... Based on a literal reading of the Bible, unitarian in christology..." therefore its inclusion alongside types of Bibilical Unitarianism is valid. RayGirvan 02:38, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)

  • [Oxford] defines protestants as separated or disunited from the Roman Catholic church, which the INC did not do. It's obvious your source did not research carefully either. Please check your facts thoroughly before posting. Note that Raygirvan is one of people who started the arbitration because of exchanges similar to this. --Emico 14:20, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)
    • It may be that the article, Nontrinitarian, is a better fit for the remark regarding the Iglesia ni Cristo, RayGirvan. This is not because "Protestant" and "unitarian" do not properly describe the group according to ordinary conventions. Rather, there are extraordinary conventions at work here - nontrinitarian groups sometimes strongly object to being called "Protestant". The reason given by Emico is a typical objection. Mkmcconn (Talk) 01:16, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)
      • Hmm. OK. I suppose it's down to the slant of this article, which focuses on Unitarians (the specific area of religious thought) rather than unitarians (ie non-trinitarians). Still, Oxford is a thoroughly respectable reference, so I don't feel too bad about citing its classification. RayGirvan 01:28, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)

FYI: There's an active conversation about this issue at Talk:Iglesia ni Cristo#Unitarian.

[edit] Hungarian / Romanian

I am curious as to the reason that some place names in the section Transylvania and Hungary have been changed from their Romanian name to the Hungarian form. I'm not trying to put forth an opinion on this, I'd just like to know how one would determine which is the better choice. -Tydaj 18:06, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Whether you're Hungarian or Romanian? There have been hot disputes of similar issues of Eastern European names. I'd generally go with the name that was current at the time the article was discussing; I might go with just the current name if it's well-known and the article just mentioned well-known cities.--Prosfilaes 18:38, 7 August 2005 (UTC)

But Transilvania is a part of Romania so the name must be the romanian version.

Translvania is now part of Romania, but at the time most of things in this article happened, Romania didn't even exist. We write about Constantanople and Babylon where appropriate, not Istanbul and Baghdad. --Prosfilaes 22:03, 20 August 2005 (UTC)
Another important point is that the Transylvanian Unitarian Church is mostly Hungarian-speaking, as the original (i.e. non-immigrant) population of Transylvania is, and names of individuals and places in Transylvanian Unitarian documents are always written it its Hungarian form. --Jdemarcos 17:28, 11 September 2005 (UTC)

[edit] American Unitarian Conference reference corrected

Originally the article stated that the American Unitarian Conference has a creed. Fact is, it does not. So I corrected it. Peace.


[edit] Reform Judaism Equivalent?

I understand that the Unitarians have arrived from a different tradition. Still, considering where they are today, wouldn't it be a fair assessment to make the comparison between them and Reformed Jews? --Philopedia 19:16, 11 September 2005 (UTC)

In what sense? --Tydaj 22:15, 11 September 2005 (UTC)

Unitarians follow one God, not three and accept the metaphoric content of the Hebrew Bible. They share with reform jews an anti-dogmatic, intellectual and ethical approach which emphasises tolerance and compassion; champions liberal causes, are open to scientific enquiry and feature a broad diversity of outlooks within their own ranks. Turning the question around, how can you tell them apart? --Philopedia 11:57, 12 September 2005 (UTC)

I don't see any good reason for doing that. Unitarianism is not a form of Judaism. For a comparison with Reformed Judaism, I would rather suggest a historical pro-Jewish split from Unitarianism called Sabbatarianism. --Jdemarcos 06:42, 12 September 2005 (UTC)
Unitarians follow one [Christian] God, not three - this may be true of classical (read 19th century) Unitarianism, but as Unitarianism in America became less a Christian religion and more a universal religion, the emphasis on Christian dogma was gradually removed. The process of merging with the Universalists in the late 50s and early 60s also moved the movement away from Christianity (although it did more to move Universalists away from Christianity). [They] accept the metaphoric content of the Hebrew Bible - no more so than the New Testament or the Quran or the writings of Buddha or the teachings of science, etc. - UtherSRG (talk) 14:11, September 12, 2005 (UTC)
They are similar in that both are liberal religions, but as they pointed out, there are also a number of differences. Unitarians (that aren't Unitarian Universalists) are/were still Christian, in one sense of the word or another. Jewish opinion over Jesus varies greatly, but to Unitarians he is still an important figure, even if he's not "God incarnate". --Tydaj 16:28, 12 September 2005 (UTC)
The German Unitarians in Deutsche Unitarier are certainly not Christian. --Palnatoke 06:40, 13 September 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Not Christians

Today, most Unitarian Universalists do not consider themselves Christians, even if they share some beliefs quite similar to those of mainstream Christians. Isn't it only the catholics that beleive that you have to believe in the trinity to be a christian. --Pomegranite | talk 03:13, 25 November 2005 (UTC)

No, there's quite a bit of Protestants that believe that. --Tydaj 23:38, 30 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Mainstream unitarian, Islam, Judaism

This questions are not directed to Universalists.(I would like to assume there is a mainstream unitarian church but if there is none, ok) Is Jesus still an important figure and the New Testament, the 'bible' or the most authorative document? Are Judaism and Islam unitarian or considered unitarian? Are sacraments practised or useless, eg baptism, eucharist, jewish passover, blessing,etc.--Jondel 01:19, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

A lot of the answers probably vary by particular church. There is no international Unitarian church, but there is the International Council of Unitarians and Universalists which is an association of different Unitarian and Unitarian Universalist bodies. Many more Unitarians than Unitarian Universalists consider themselves Christian. I know that, for example, the Romanian Unitarian church still places a strong emphasis on Jesus' teachings. I believe they also have something akin to confirmation. For an example of a unique Unitarian ritual, see Flower Communion, which was created to be distinct from the Eucharist and other Judeo-Christian rituals.

Often the distinction is made between "Unitarians" and "unitarians", the latter being anti-Trinitarians that do not belong to a Unitarian organization. Islam teaches that Jesus was human and that the Trinitarianism is a form of polytheism. Judaism also generally rejects Jesus being part of God, let alone a "rabbi." --Tydaj 02:19, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

We know about Islam's view on Jesus and Judaism's view. Jesus was once at least a Rabbi. Is it is hard to categorize Judaism and Islam as unitarian, since the context or Unitarian is ussually associated with Christinanity isn't it? Most are former members of mainstream Christianity(?). I think I can say that the Bible is still significant as a reference to unitarians(?). There are some Christainity associated religions like the Jehovahs and Adventists, and Iglesia ni Cristo(which I 'm trying to categorize) etc and it would be good if we could distinguish them. --Jondel 02:48, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

I would like to distinguish again or against/exclude Universalists, which is too broad. Universalists might include Buddha, Shiva, etc. and direct this question to Unitarianism only.--Jondel 02:53, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

When speaking of Unitarian Universalism, it is quite difficult to seperate the two. Unless you mean traditional Unitarianism as seperated from UUism. --Tydaj 05:16, 1 December 2005 (UTC)
In "Unitarian Universalism", the word Universalist refers historically to the Universalist Church, not to Buddha or Shiva. --Jdemarcos 21:36, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

Some denominations want to be associated with Christianity (or Judaism) and feel that their religion is the only path. They will probably resist the idea of Universalism . In the INC talk page, an anonymous insists that INC is simply non-trinitarian and resists being associated with Unitarianism. There is a distinct section Nontrinitarianism#Other_groups_which_reject_the_Trinity_doctrine with only one member. They are as Tydaj says unitarian being anti-trinitarian. Universalism does not refer to Buddha or Shiva but the definition of Universal religion includes Buddhism and Hinduism which I'm sure the INCs will abhor being associated with. (I'm Catholic but the INC is a significant religion in the Philippines). --Jondel 00:43, 2 December 2005 (UTC)



These jokers know all about it don't they. In fact wikipedia knows all about it.

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