Talk:20th Waffen Grenadier Division of the SS (1st Estonian)

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

	This article is within the scope of the Military history WikiProject. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the project and see lists of open tasks and regional and topical task forces. To use this banner, please see the full instructions.
Start	This article has been rated as Start-Class on the quality scale.
Additional information and associated task forces: This article has been checked against the following criteria for B-Class status: Referencing and citation: criterion not met Coverage and accuracy: criterion met Structure: criterion met Grammar: criterion met Supporting materials: criterion met Associated task forces (nations and regions): Baltic states military history task force Associated task forces (periods and conflicts): World War II task force

	20th Waffen Grenadier Division of the SS (1st Estonian) is part of the WikiProject Estonia, a project to maintain and expand Estonia-related subjects on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, you can edit the article attached to this page, or visit the project page, where you can join the project and/or contribute to the discussion.
Start	This article has been rated as Start-Class on the quality scale.
High	This article has been rated as High-importance on the importance scale.

[edit] Questionable source

Petri added a source about "Involvement of the Estonian SS Legion in War Crimes" (full name "Involvement of the Estonian SS Legion in War Crimes in 1941-1945 and the Attempts to Revise the Verdict of the Nuremberg Tribunal in Estonia"). It is in the web page of Embassy of the Russian Federation in Denmark, author anonymous. I am not sure it is a valid wikisource, even cursory glance reveals several mistakes, both factual and language errors. However, because of the recent events, I will not remove it as a reference, but request that an independent editor with knowledge about 20th Waffen Grenadier Division of the SS (1st Estonian) would review the source and determine its suitability. DLX 13:15, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

I have reviewed the reference, and believe it is not a reliable source on the topic. The reference would be worthy of deletion if it wasn't made notable by virtue of endorsement by Russian Federation.

Thus, I recommend removing it as a reference, and adding a brief section on the order of "Russian officials have made assertions ... (see, for example, ...)." Digwuren 13:37, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

Well, maybe not that brief once all the mistakes are pointed out ... Digwuren 13:39, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

Petri, at least three other editors agree that it is not reliable source. Please stop your childish edit warring - or at least, give a reason why an obviously flawed and unreliable source must be included to Wikipedia. DLX 15:22, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Cleanup

This article is messy. needs reworking. Will do ASAP. Meanwhile I just tag it accordingly.--Termer 19:33, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

Made a first pass on it but it's still a mess...shall continue ASAP, feel free to help meanwhile --Termer 08:39, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

Hello, here is what I'd do, call the article Estonian National Army Units in 1941-1944 or in WWII and work out a section for each, including the Finnish Infantry Regiment 200, the 22nd Territorial Rifle Corps and The 8th Estonian Rifle Corpsin the Red Army. Simply because it's going to be easier to put everythin in context. And then once we have enough sourced material for each unit, it would make sense to spread out new articles about each. Please let me know if there are any objections to the suggestion. The first thing to do would be sorting it out according to the chronology providing historical context as it goes...Thanks!--Termer 08:14, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

BTW: "Selection of insignias issued to the Estonian Waffen Grenadier conscripts" is fake. And it looks like a fake too even on the photograph, therefore the image should be removed and deleted from Commons I'd suggest. Sources like "Estonian Vikings" by Richard Landwehr cite clearly that in general officially any national insignia was not issued. Some of the Estonians though did it on their own, added Estonian national insignia to the uniforms, mostly in 1944 when the Germans didn't care as much any more. --Termer 08:22, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

If I understand you correctly, are you intending to rename this article to something like Estonian National Army Units in WWII? If so, it will be contested, since this article is specifically about the 20th division. I suggest you create a new article rather than modify this one Martintg 12:09, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

PS, those insignias are real enough, see here: [1] Martintg 12:14, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

Hi Martintg

OK, thanks for clarifying... if this article is supposed to be about the 20th division then it should be written about it. Currently there is "Narwa Regiment" mixed in. The fact is, when Battalion Narwa returned to Estonia in March 1944 it was reformed, it ceased to exist becouse of the general conscription call-up and a newly formed Waffen-Füsilier-Battalion der SS was the one that joined the 20th division. So currently everything is mixed together and it's not clear at all that the article is about the 20th division.

regarding the image you provided for ref, it further illustrates the fact that Estonian national insignia (I.m talking about insignia of the Republic of Estonia) was not used and/or officially provided for those troops. Since "real enough" isn't good enough for an encyclopedia, I'm going to remove the image from this article. Please have it deleted from commons whoever has uploaded it...thanks!--Termer 22:00, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

PS. regarding rewrapping this article, then it's going to be structured around the 20th division, and all the rest like Narwa etc are going to need their own articles and then later on, one general story about, something like Estonian National Army Units in WWII is going to be made. How about that as a plan?--Termer 22:00, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

That sounds okay, though I think mention of the identity of the earlier units that were merged into the 20th should be mentioned. Of course these units should have seperate articles. In regard to the insignia, the tri-colour was used, although I have not seen the one with three lions. As for the proposed article Estonian National Army Units in WWII, I think some thought needs to be given on the title, since during WWII there was no actual Estonian National Army in existence since the Soviets disbanded the army and arrested many of the general staff in 1940. Perhaps Estonian Military Units in WWII may be a better title. Martintg 00:51, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

Good point Martintg National Army can sound like it was the army of the state. Estonian Military Units should be much more clear what it's all about. Regarding the units that were merged into the 20th, I've laid it out, further work is needed of course. the tri-colour insignia, in case anybody can dig out an authentic photo from the era that would be another story than using photos of home made fake labels on WP.--Termer 06:42, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

OK, ruffed out the header according to the title. Further work is needed of course to make the whole article about the 20th division . Termer 00:03, 16 July 2007 (UTC)