User talk:209.60.12.58

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In any case, I hope you enjoy editing here and being a Wikipedian! Please sign your comments on talk pages using four tildes (~~~~); this will automatically produce your IP address (or username if you're logged in) and the date. If you need help, check out Wikipedia:Questions, ask me on my talk page, or ask your question and then place {{helpme}} before the question on your talk page. Again, welcome! ·:· Will Beback ·:· 03:12, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

Please join the disucssion at talk:Half Dome. You are adding dangerously incorrect information. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 23:35, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Endless edit/revert cycling on Half Dome

Dear anonymous editor: you are adding material to the Half Dome article that does not follow the guidelines for Wikipedia editing, hence is constantly being reverted. It doesn't matter that you believe going off the cables is safer. It does not matter that Will and I believe this to be false. The important thing about Wikipedia is that the articles are verifiable (that is, any fact can be traced to a reliable source, such as a book or newspaper), and written in a neutral point of view (i.e., does not favor a particular set of opinions).

If you wish to have your material stay in the Half Dome article, you have to come up with a reference that states that it is safer off the cables --- you cannot rely on your own knowledge or intuition: you have to prove it to the rest of us. Further, if it is a controversial assertion (which this one is), then you need to phrase it as such. For example, if some association is favoring leaving the cables, then we could add:

Association X claims that leaving the cable is safer than waiting, while the National Park Service wants people to stay on the cable for safety.

Notice that this sort of phrasing does not talk about the absolute truth of whether it is safer or not: it reports who believes it to be safer and who does not. These should be official organizations or well-known experts --- we can't cite random people in blogs, for example. Again, both of these assertions should be backed up with references. We can help you format the references, don't worry.

I would urge you to find a reputable source that recommends leaving the cables. Until you do so, I predict that the unsourced assertion is so controversial that it will probably just be reverted on sight.

Feel free to ask any more questions on Talk:Half Dome. Thanks! hike395 02:58, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

I cannot imagine, that NPS gives any recommendation. This area is nature and everyone is free to go the way he wants. It is an obvious fact, that overcrowded routes are less safe for all. So why not writing in Wiki, that there are alternatives for the last view steps to the top and pointing out the related difficulties and dangers using the accepted class rating system. People, who are not familiar with the classes, can look it up easily in Wiki. Rating in Class 3 with cables and Class 5 without cables is widley accepted, just look for different sources online and the definition of the classes. The possibility of climbing outside the cables is given, or is there anyone stating, that it is impossible? So all Wiki criteria are met.

Thanks for engaging in discussion on this topic. What may be obvious to you is not obvious to everyone. Untrained hikers without climbing equipment should not climb a class 5 route. To mention that it's possible in this article makes no more sense then saying the Empire State Building can be climbed outside. The NPS specifaclly recommends staying within the cables.[1]
  • Tips while using the cables: Remain on the inside of the cables
  • Do not attempt the ascent if: The cables are down for the winter
Let's reflect the standard viewpoint on this topic rather than idesyncractic views . ·:· Will Beback ·:· 04:01, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
I believe that the article, as it stands now, is NPOV and has reliable sources: climbing outside the cables is class 5, with a source. Can we agree on it? hike395 05:02, 5 September 2007 (UTC)