User talk:208.65.188.149

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Contents 1 Stop Blogging 2 Administrator warning 3 PLEASE, REGISTER 4 2 week block 5 Jmabel comments on the situation 6 Block reset to 2 weeks starting today 7 Cuban prisons 8 == 9 Durova blocks El Jigue again for another two weeks 9.1 The source of all this confusion 10 TV stations in Cuba 11 Venezuelan Government denies Castro is swindling them 12 Sources on La Coubre 13 El Coubre research as my block continues 14 "blacklisting" tests 15 the Obelisk 16 History of Cuba 17 Venezuela 18 Hemmingway 19 Talk:Fidel Castro 20 El Jigue 21 An Automated Message from HagermanBot 22 An Automated Message from HagermanBot 23 An Automated Message from HagermanBot 24 Thanks 25 Attacked 26 Welcome! 27 Thank you 28 Unsourced edits 29 Reference style 29.1 March 2007 30 Bay of Pigs problem 31 Francisco Ciutat de Miguel 32 10 May 2007 32.1 May 2007 33 Luis Posada Carriles 33.1 Passenger list 33.2 Carlos the Jackal 33.3 Lead Section Changes 33.4 Passenger List Redux 34 Quality of edits 35 Edits to Cuba on 22 July 2007 36 Recent edit to Raul Castro lacked source 37 Fidel Castro Article 38 Cuba 39 Protest El_C is blocking and deleting for political reasons 40 Bay of Pigs 41 Bay of Pigs executions deleted 42 Interesting image of Che 43 Illustrations of El_C Page 44 Ejercito Rojo deletes citation to Cuban internal infighting in the Raul Castro site 45 Antonio Blanco Rico said a communist party member 46 Cuban government repression POV? 47 Ronald Herboldt 48 Bay of Pigs Invasion Content of "Soviet Advisors" Section 49 Registered User 50 October 2007 51 I did not remove material from talk page 52 Sign up for Wikipedia! 53 Regarding your edits to Cuba: 54 Gossiping/Blogging talk pages 55 Dirty words 56 Your ownership issues 57 Block 58 Has Freedom warrior been blocked too 59 Off they go to remove material 60 Dear Miss Martin 61 More deletions from the Cuba page 62 Your block and your talk page 63 Please feel free to attempt to make me a non-person

[edit] Stop Blogging

To the new IP address (under the name El Jigue), please stop blogging up the 'talk pages'. the 'Talk Pages' aren't for speculation/observations/conversations on article-related current events. The 'Talk Pages' are for discussing, what should/could be added to the Article, or removed from the Article. GoodDay 22:41, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Administrator warning

The purpose of article talk pages on Wikipedia is to discuss how to edit particular articles. These are not bulletin boards for tangential conversations. The Internet has many other sites that offer such services, if that is what you seek, but continued misuse of Wikipedia's talk pages can and does lead to administrative editing blocks. Please work on building an encyclopedia if you choose to participate here. Durova^Charge! 02:17, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

Durov: why don't you "ban" me again that way there will be less challenge to Castro's propaganda, that some seem to think is a source of "verifiable fact."..El Jigue 11-7-06

[edit] PLEASE, REGISTER

El Jigue, please become a registered user. That way we can converse about Cuban related events (on your registered personal 'talk page'). In the memory of Jose Marti, please register. GoodDay 04:35, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

Thank you, but no thank you....there is need of challenge to data presented as "verifiable fact" by the Cuban government. El Jigue 11-7-06

Hi, I wonder what do you mean by this: challenge to data presented as "verifiable fact"?--Constanz - Talk 15:41, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

Constanz an example is being placed on discussion page El Jigue 11-7-06

[edit] 2 week block

You have been blocked for 2 weeks for violations of WP:POINT, WP:NOT, WP:CIVIL, and vandalism. Particularly troubling was this edit. Durova^Charge! 14:39, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

I disagree with the block, I don't think it helps wikipedia in the long run. EJ's long association with wikipedia and some of his invaluable contributions are too important to be discarded. I have always viewed EJ's more unorthodox activities in light of Wikipedia:Ignore all rules. If EJ registered, would that mean that this block would become null and void? If not, what I may do is set up an rfc in support of El Jigue, a centralised area where various editors can have their say and some of the history of this business can be aired. And hopefully we can resolve this issue to everyone's satisfaction. I understand user Good day's sentiments, but as far as I am aware, Good day's contributions to Cuban related articles only began very recently and have been minimal. The views of users with long records of editing Cuban related articles, bringing them to good article and featured article status with EJ's invaluable help should be considered. I believe the Che Guevara article to be the best article on a controversial subject wikipedia (or any other wiki) has produced, this wouldn't have been possible without EJ's assistance. --Zleitzen 15:09, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

I express similar opinion.--Constanz - Talk 18:17, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

El Jigüe, we shall miss your contributions on the CG Talk page. May kindness and reason prevail.

Shortcut: WP:KC

The peace dove stands for Kindness Campaign

"Kindness in words creates confidence. Kindness in thinking creates profoundness. Kindness in giving creates love." — Lao-Tzu

-- Polaris999 17:40, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

I'd consider reducing the block if EJ pledged to enter Wikipedia:Adopt-a-user and abide by site policies. Registration is recommended but not essential; what I really want to see is those blog-like posts moved offsite; he's welcome to post a link to the new blog location from his user page. Additional factors that weighed against him were his defiant response to feedback and his vandalism of another user's talk page. I treated this investigation with kid gloves until that point, but any user who calls an administrator's repeated warnings mere difference of opinion and literally invites a block is going to get one. Durova^Charge! 17:52, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

Thank you kind folk. However, I chose to stand on my principals (e.g to sit down (:>)). My rationale is that when there is severe control and internal censorship of a country by the authorities of that country then with that kind of news blackout/and or distortion of that countries history by authorities of that country, all Wikipedia information on this matter needs to be evaluated in open debate. In this circumstance actions to limit debate are obstacles to any approximation of "truth," and objectivity. There are many who view Cuba, the Castro Brothers, Che Guevara etc. in an uninformed and naive way; to these individuals the harsh reality of life under controlling one party rule come as a surprise that not all can handle. (For parallels one can view the movie "Goodbye, Lenin! [1]. In other context, there were such as very talented poet Ezra Pound ( "I sat on the Dogana's steps/For the gondolas cost too much, ...) and his ill founded admiration of Mussolini ("the trains run on time"); and who ended his life is pseudo-madness and disgrace. Then there was Herbert Matthews whose admiration of Castro was continual and even the New York Times finally had to let him go..... El Jigue 11-9-06

There isn't any principle at stake here. I've already outlined how you can both remain active at Wikipedia and gain a far broader audience than you already have. You would probably become a very successful blogger and you're probably a good enough researcher and writer to publish articles in reputable magazines which you may then quote in Wikipedia articles. Those actions would do far more for the cause you profess to support. I hope you'll reflect on this and decide to cooperate because all of the steps I've asked you to take would help you achieve those goals. Durova^Charge! 19:09, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

Sigh, this whole situation is rather silly and unnecessary, I would agree with a previous statement regarding El Jigue's valuable contributions and his gentle prodding to folks in an effort to present both sides of the Cuba story. I have never seen this user behave in a spiteful manner. I understand some users taking issue of posts on the discussion pages that aren't 100% directly related to furthering articles but, rather discussions on the subject however, that in no way demands a 2-week block. I disagree with the block.

PS: That sentence of mine: "I understand some users taking issue of posts on the discussion pages that aren't 100% directly related to furthering articles but, rather discussions on the subject however, that in no way demands a 2-week block." was a doozy and a slap in the face of the English language - please forgive me Mr. Mulvey (high school English teacher).

Hope that brings some levity.

Cheers,

Goatboy95 20:28, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

Warmest Regards, Goatboy95 20:26, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

No one has offered an explanation of why it wouldn't be perfectly acceptable - and even preferable - for EJ to open a Blogspot account. His following here is limited to the users who frequent a few talk pages. Nor has anyone offered a reason why he shouldn't publish articles in mainstream magazines. If you respect him that much then help him move up to the next level. Durova^Charge! 20:57, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

An objective observer might conclude that this "offer" of Durova (the fact that this pseudonym is a Russian Woman Hero's name has not passed unobserved) is a mere sham. First it is condescending for I already have almost a hundred articles in different press publications and a good number of others on line. Second there seems no evidence Durova has contributed anything I know of to Cuba or Cuba related articles in Wikipedia, thus one could conclude he/she is a novice in this area. Third she/he does not contribute anything to the consideration that in a closed society reliable factual sources are hard to find and government data is very unreliable; thus there needs to be discussion of every point. Fourth such an offer could set up a circumstance when it is possible to block any contribution that I might make if it runs contrary to Durova's unsubstantiated and apparently very uninformed opinion on the Cuban circumstance. Thus, I cannot accept this reprehensible solution, where the righteously uninformed repress the thoughts of those better informed merely based on self-interpretation of Wikipedia rules and enforced aggressive insertion into this field. El Jigüe 11-9-06

If you really think I've acted improperly then here's what you can do about it: put a request for block removal template on this user page. You seem to be suggesting my Russian username implies a political sympathy toward Cold War communism that compromises my objectivity? Along with your block request, post any page diffs from my edit history to support that or any other relevant theory. Another administrator will review the evidence and decide whether to overrule me. Or as an alternative, you might entertain the possibility that I'm telling the truth. Durova^Charge! 03:16, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Jmabel comments on the situation

Please see User_talk:Zleitzen#El_Jig.C3.BCe. -- Polaris999 23:51, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Block reset to 2 weeks starting today

Per WP:SOCK for block evasion on another IP address. Durova^Charge! 23:21, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

I completely support & agree with this latest block. The disruptive anon-user continues to stubbornly go against Wikipedia policy. He's being selfish. GoodDay 00:25, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

Keep it civil, please. Durova^Charge! 06:29, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

Alright, I'll cool down. I guess I'm letting 'El Jigue' get under my skin. GoodDay 22:27, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

Perhaps Durova is not aware she has blocked a public use University Account. I suggest that she evaluate her draconian tactics or at least be a little more descriminating as to what she blocks. What she has done merely brings wider attention to her censorship. Buendia's agreement with this circumstance only makes it worse, and helps support my thesis that Wikipedia is subject to politically motivated control. El Jigue 11-16-06

Now the good Colonel Buendia, 'winning victories further and further way from the capital' (see a paraphrase in A Hundred Years of Solitude) is busy "blogging" endlessly on Raul Castro as the first "Vice president or just vice president," or Raul Castro an "able administrator" (given the present state of the Cuban economy Raul as an administrator compares to Roman Emperor Nero as a musician) see as if it made any real difference at all. Meanwhile factual errors such as confusing battle sites at Central Estrada Palma in the western foothills of the Sierra Maestra is still being confused with "Palma Soriano" on the plains far further east, have not been addressed. El Jigue 11-19-06

EJ, I adore Gabriel García Márquez and, believe me, there's nothing politically motivated about this particular block. Earlier you speculated about the origin of my username. Here's the actual background: Nadezhda Durova was the first female officer of the Russian army. She served about a hundred years before their revolution and had nothing to do with communism. However, she was nearly unique in having published her wartime memoirs before women normally had the opportunity to serve in the military.

I hadn't expected to join the armed forces or go to war until 9/11. My nearest relative was one of the last people to escape from the World Trade Center - he survived the attack from a high floor, watched his boss die before his eyes, and saw body parts fall from the sky moments after he fled the building and took refuge in a subway entrance. So when I went out on deployment I wasn't serving my country so much as serving my uncle. When I got out to the most dangerous part of my unit's mission I volunteered to stand double the usual number of armed watches. I'm glad I never had to fire that weapon - instead my command saved over 100 civilian lives - and although I'm not an exile from my country I probably share with you the experience of having been profoundly affected by historic events.

I never edit World Trade Center or 9/11. I simply couldn't be objective there. There's a lot I could say - more than the above suggests - but the best parts of my knowledge wouldn't fit within Wikipedia's mission. I'd run into conflict with editors who hold opinions that I consider absurd (but whether I like it or not those opinions have been published in encyclopedic sources). I hold myself to that standard, which doesn't mean I would hold you back from editing pages you care about, but does mean you should observe site policies wherever you do edit. Probably more than most administrators I think I've earned the right to say that. Whether or not you agree, I hope you can respect my reasons. Durova^Charge! 04:50, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

Durova interesting cover story however far more details are required before it becomes credible and I can "respect" your reasons. Otherwise I would be tempted to think that it is rooted in a combination of the George C. Merino account [2] and the nonsense proposed by the World Socialist Web site [3], and surely you would not want that. Your rationale that eye witness experience denies rational factual evidence is a sophism and flies in the face of historic accounts such as that of Josephus [4]. As to Gabo, he like Ezra Pound before him, has become the house intelectual of a tyranny in return for massive public relations campaigns. By the way Gabo, even if his writing is excellent, is far from being the first Latin American writer of "Magical Realism." There were excellent writers of this genera before him such as: Julio Cortázar, Alejo Carpentier, Jorge Luis Borges and the seminal writer of this approach, Arturo Uslar-Pietri, author of the 1931 Venezuelan novel Lanzas Rojas [5]. El Jigue 11-22-06

Cover story? Thank you for the chuckle. You're kidding, right? Durova^Charge! 03:02, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Cuban prisons

With incredible nerve the Cuban government is holding a conference on penal science see the laughter at [6]. It reads:

Cuba, Model of Dignity and Resistance

Kiev, Nov 22 (Prensa Latina) Cuba represents for Ukraine an example of dignity, humanism, resistance and hope that a better world is possible, said Vasily Tereshuk, vice president of the Cuba-Ukraine Friendship Association.

Tereshuk added that Cuba proved that eliminating misery and underdevelopment are not a utopia but attainable goals via humanitarian missions like those involving Cuban specialists.

Cuba help the peoples develop not by exporting revolutions but because it proposes a better world with an experience that changes the human condition at any country.

The head of the Group of Friends of Cuba in Parliament recalled that Cuba has implemented internationalism and unconditional humanism in Pakistan, Guatemala, Bolivia, and Africa.

Tereshuk also recalled that Cuba's 16-year program of free medical aid to Ukrainian infants victims of the nuclear accident in Chernobyl has over 20,000 beneficiaries.

Hundreds of youth live thanks to this Cuban specialized assistance Tarara center and enjoys broad recognition in Ukraine regardless of political of ideological trend.

It proved that neither friendship nor human rights must not be negotiated.

Ukraine's Friendship Association groups since 1993 the Che Guevara Youth League, the Association of Cuban Internationalist military from the October Crisis and the mothers of Chernobyl children.

ef emw Oda

PL-40"

of course I am banned (excuse me blocked) for pointing out such arrant nonsense, El Jigue 11-22-06

[edit] ==

Thanx for Ukraine commies' stuff. Cuba represents for Ukraine an example of dignity, humanism, resistance and hope that a better world is possible, said Vasily Tereshuk(also [7]) - as we know, in the very Ukraine this so-called 'better world' lasted (by the support of rifle barrels) for about 70 years. For some reason, people replaced this paradise with the damned 'Capitalist hell' as soon as they were allowed choose.
Anyway, I wanted to ask you if you have any comments on the recent Nicaraguan election? Some years ago, one wouldn't have expected this 'Cold War hero' to once more gain presidency. All in all, it seems that the Latin American countries have been taking another left-wing shift for some years?Constanz - Talk 10:17, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Durova blocks El Jigue again for another two weeks

Durova: I notice that you renewed the block, thus your continuing blocking suggests far more than your denial of ulterior motive. One wonders if it is your intent to continually deny me access, and thus providing new information and or evaluation of circumstance until the Cuban situation reaches a more "manageable" state. In my humble opinion this "manageable" state is unlikely to happen until both Castro's are gone from the scene. El Jigue 11-24-24

BTW The following post from Castro's Prensa Latina, is such a flight of fantasy that it could be taken to suggest that desperate pro-Castro propagandists are exceeding even their own previous efforts:

"Cuba Looks at Penal Sciences

"Havana, Nov 21 (Prensa Latina) Nearly 200 delegates from 30 countries have confirmed their attendance at the 8th Congress on Penal Sciences, to be held from Tuesday through Friday in this capital."

"Among participants are lawyers, judges, attorneys, forensic experts, prison center staff, criminologists, victimologists, sociologists, psychologists, university professors and related students."

"Miguel Angel Garcia, from the Organizing Committee, told Prensa Latina that the aim of this forum is to foster exchange of experiences on the world development of penal sciences."

"According to the jurist, the Republic's Attorney General Juan Escalona Reguera will open the Congress, in which he will analyze reiterated international problems like the application of justice and the Cuban experience about this issue."

"The situation in jails, role of legal medicine and forensic psychiatry, criminology and other law sciences, organized crime, international drug and people smuggling are among issues to debate in this encounter."

"Also on the list is post-modernity penal law, the attorney's role in the modern penal process, trial in the modernization process, criminal investigation, prison treatment and social rehabilitation and more."

"Congresses related with this law branch have taken place uninterruptedly in Cuba every two years since 1992, attended by outstanding experts worldwide."

One imagines that these "outstanding experts" are merely being rained on by something it would be impolite to mention here. El Jigue 11-24-06

Your block log is available right here:[8]. I haven't blocked you since 12 November. Wikipedia's software can automatically extend a block against a user who attempts to edit during a block period. I've given you a list of recourses in case you think I've acted improperly in any way. If there really is any meritorious argument against my actions, these steps would get me desysopped pretty quickly. Some of them are also stated through the disclaimer link at my user talk page:

• Post a request for unblock template to this page.
• Read Category:Administrators open to recall. I am one of 58 administrators (out of over 1000) who have volunteered to stand for reconfirmation if six editors request it.
• Open a user conduct WP:RFC against me. Post all the evidence you have against me there (or e-mail it to someone who can post it on your behalf).

Durova^Charge! 16:47, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] The source of all this confusion

I believe I know what caused EJ to think that Durova had extended his block by another two weeks when in fact this was not the case (I hope). I, too, got that impression when I saw a posting Durova had made to this Talk page a few days ago, in the section entitled "Block reset to 2 weeks starting today". Because she posted her message to EJ re Gabo et al. inside that section, rather than beginning a new section for it, on the watchlist and history page her contribution shows up as:

04:50, 21 November 2006 Durova (Talk | contribs) (→Block reset to 2 weeks starting today)

which certainly gives the initial impression that she has extended EJ's block for another two weeks, although this is fortunately not the case. I also don't see any evidence that some mysterious Wikipedia "software" has extended EJ's block (see above). Therefore, if everyone can remain calm over the next few hours, the block on EJ contributing to WP should expire on the 26th or 27th of November. In the meantime, might I invite you both to join me for a nice cup of tea? -- Polaris999 20:09, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

Follow-up: I found the exact information re when EJ's block will expire -- here it is (bolding is mine):

23:21, 12 November 2006, Durova (Talk | contribs) blocked 208.65.188.149 (contribs) (expires 23:21, 26 November 2006, anon. only, account creation blocked) (resetting per WP:SOCK: user evaded block on another IP address)

EJ, when you start editing again, would you please take a look at the La Coubre explosion Talk page? I posted a message there for you re Father McKniff a while back ... -- Polaris999 03:20, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

Very good catch, Polaris. The tea is delicious too. Regards, Durova^Charge! 03:47, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

Apparently the block has not been lifted El Jigue 11-26-06

[edit] TV stations in Cuba

It might be wise to mention that most of these stations existed before Castro reached power, he merely changed their names......El Jigue 11-24-06

Beardo As you may now Durova has blocked my access again for another two weeks, and probably will keep on doing that. Of course I could circumvent the block but for now I prefer to let things stand, yet "Eso no se queda así, eso se hincha." Eventually somebody who can do something will notice her continual embarrassment to Wikipedia, since by now what ever the original pretext proposed such action amounts to political censorship of scholarship. As to TV at present in Cuba my statements seem to be correct (see citations below), yet I have no direct knowledge and was writing from memory of almost 50 years ago. Common TV signals have a short range, and I cannot go to Cuba of course since I will be arrested there. Wow Durova could ban me for ever for that charging that I would be “a criminal in Cuba." (;>).

TV arrived in Cuba early [9], Manuel A. Alvarez writes [10] "Television was inaugurated in October 1950 and expanded rapidly through the island. In 1958, 23 television stations were operating in the territory, composing of 3 national networks and 7 independent local stations in Havana and Camaguey Province. One of them a full color television station, Telecolor Channel 12 in Havana (3rd in America). One in 18 inhabitants had a television set."

"In 1959, the Marxist government of Cuba started the process of seizing radio and television stations, a process that ended in late 1960 with all radio and television channels under the control of the government. That was the end of freedom for the radio and television industry in Cuba." El Jigue 11-25-06

[edit] Venezuelan Government denies Castro is swindling them

It is a common saying in politics that an official denial is often a confirmation of fact:

"He (Minister of Energy and Petroleum Rafael Ramírez) dismissed remarks earlier this week by former Pdvsa directors Humberto Calderón and José Toro Hardy, who claimed that Cuba demanded a USD 339 million payment from Venezuela even though Caracas this year has shipped almost 100 million bpd of crude oil to the island -which exceeds USD 2.2 billion" [11]

One of the matters in discussion in official circles in Washington DC is when, after the Castros leave the scene, will the succeeding Cuban government be responsible for the Castros' vast foreign debts (in excess of 40 billion dollars). One of the factors is that if the Castros' can be considered foreign agents (e.g. given Raul Castro's training in the Eastern Block countries, and Fidel Castro's speech at the funeral of Fabio Grobart etc) then the 1898 Treaty of Paris applies, and the Cuban people are thus absolved of any responsability for this debt. El Jigue 11-24-06

The above comment is more garbage by the ultra-right fascists of Miami. To: El Jigue: You are a comemierda. That is the reason you can not go to Cuba. Your brothers and sisters inside the island reject you. Stay in Miami, you piece of SCUM. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.101.58.229 (talk) 21:44, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Sources on La Coubre

Still no access so posting some sources here; some benighted soul has been black listing the URL some of these sources, so the URL's have been modified in a way that can be read manually.

Anonymous 1999-2006 (last accessed 8-19-06) John J. McKniff, O.S.A. Augustinian Missionary and Pastor of the Poor. [12]

Ball, Ann 2001 Rogelio "Francisco" Gonzalez Corzo 1932 – 1961 Cuba. In : Faces of Holiness II: Modern Saints in Photos and Words Our Sunday Visitor Publishing. Division, Huntington, Indiana ISBN 0879734094 pp. 222-229. http://annball.com/books/new2.shtml

Bertuccioli, Marie-Dominique 2004 (accessed 9-27-06) La Coubre : un bateau français victime du terrorisme contre contre Cuba [13]: “Orlando Garcia Diaz, est aujourd'hui retraité… Ils avaient fait une pause, toutes les caisses de balles avaient été déchargées de la cale qui nous occupait. C'était le tour des caisses d'obus. Au hangar 2, j'ai demandé à des camarades de rester pour donner un coup de main, charger un autre camion de caisses de vis. ”

Beruvides, Esteban M. 1999 (last accessed 8-18-06) Recuento Histórico: El porque el PCC ordenó volar el barco "La Coubre." Guaracabuya. ttp://www.amigospais-guaracabuya.org/oagev003.php

Castillo Bueno, Maria De Los Reyes, Daisy Rubiera Castillo, Anne McLean (Translator) 2000 Reyita: The Life of a Black Cuban Woman in the Twentieth Century. Duke University Press, Durham NC. ISBN 0822325934 pp. 95, 99, 102, 119-121, 137-138 Anselmo “Monín" Rubeira, Reyita's son, died in this explosion he had been a rebel soldier whom warned by a “guardia” known as Peruchín, fled Bayamo and Batista Army Capitán Morejón Chief of that garrison, to the Castro rebel camp of Capitán Bárzaga where his other brother Nené was stationed in la Sierra Maestra. (I either did not know him by that name or did not know him at all.....)

Calderón Nelson Date: Thu, 31 Dec 1998 10:18:58 EST To: InfoNewsAg@aol.com From: InfoNewsAg@aol.com Subject: ^?SO-8859-1?Q? La Coubre (me lo contó mi abuelito) Por Carlos A. Galindo? Distributed by: INFORMACION NEWS AGENCY Nelson Calderón - Editor in Chief P.O. Box 4432 Clifton, NJ 07012-0996 Fax: (201) 692-1273 Off: (201) 692-1891 Email: InfoNewsAg@aol.com A HREF="ttp://welcome.to/NelsonCalderon">WWW.WELCOME.TO./INFORMACION.NEWS </A> or: ttp://www.welcome.to/NelsonCalderon "Me lo contó mi abuelito" -Transcurría el año 1959 (sic) era a mediados de año y no recuerdo exactamente la fecha, ese día me encontraba leyendo el periódico en el portal de mi casa cuando de repente una gran explosión lo estremeció todo, como si algo sumamente grave hubiera ocurrido...Minutos mas tarde dieron la noticia, pero sin proporcionar grandes detalles que un barco atracado al Puerto de la Habana había hecho explosión. .Se trataba de LA COUBRE barco de bandera francesa que transportaba armas y municiones para las Fuerzas Armadas Revolucionarias Cubanas. Dicha explosión produjo daños significativos entre muertos y heridos que fué una cifra alta aunque imposible de dar con datos exactos.....Aproximadamente como dos horas mas tarde se produce un boletín para todos los cubanos que estuvieran atentos pues el comandante Fidel Castro haría uso de la palabra en los próximos minutos......Cuando Castro tomo los micrófonos de las radioemisoras que se encontraban en Cadena Radial y a través del Frente Independientes de Emisoras Libres que sus siglas eran F.I.E.L y su lema Fiel a Cuba, Fiel a la Revolución y que su máximo dirigente era Carlos DeMan conocido comentarista y animador de televisión el cual había organizado a aquellas pequeñas radioemisoras en esa asociación.....Una vez Castro instalado frente a las cámaras y micrófonos empezó a fustigar a USA de ser el responsable directo de ese sabotaje y textualmente dijo..." Agentes terroristas , entrenados, financiados y desembarcados en playas cubanas han volado el barco La Coubre produciendo centenares de victimas entre la población " y as siguió su perorata por horas dando detalles de todas las pruebas que según l tenia en contra de USA...(Tiempo mas tarde se supo que dicho sabotaje había sido perpetrado por ARGELINOS los cuales sospecharon que ese envío de armas iba a LA LEGION EXTRANJERA que era el ejercito que tenia acontanodo Francia en Argelia y cual era comandado por el General "Roul Salam" el cual algún tiempo después encabezó un intento de golpe de estado que se produjo en Argelia cuando el presidente francés Charles De Gaulle decide dar la independencia a Argelia..) Este hecho marco el inicio de los ataques de Castro en contra de su vecino del Norte......Pero una voz, se alzó en contra de los argumentos de Castro y ese fué.. "Arturo Artalejo " que desde su pequeña emisora radial..."Radio Capital Artalejo" "dijo que el gobierno se estaba comportando de una forma irresponsable pues no tenia evidencias para acusar a ningún país extranjero de ser el autor de tamaño crimen y que debería de investigarse profundamente antes de llegar a una conclusión para llevarlos a los organismos competentes en las cuales pudieran juzgar ese hecho dentro de un marco estrictamente jurídico."...

No se hizo esperar la reacia El Frente Independiente de Emisoras Libres lanzo un ataque en contra de "Artalejo" y lo acusó de " estar vendido a USA y de ser un peón al servicio de los peores intereses reaccionarios."...

Seria conveniente para una mejor comprensión de estos hechos que se hiciera un poco de historia sobre el origen de este llamado "Frente de Emisoras Libres."...Originalmente el Sr. Carlos DeMan trabajaba en Radio Capital Artalejo en un programa que se llamaba Con la Manga al Codo y en la cual participaban, Arturo Artalejo, Carlos DeMan y Justo Méndez , mas conocido como " El Preguntón." ..Este programa trataba sobre temas generales, pero su platillo fuerte eran sus comentarios sobre "La Farándula." Al parecer Artalejo y DeMan tuvieron alguna disputa y ambos se separaron sin que pueda decirse con exactitud la índole del problema.....Tiempo mas tarde Carlos DeMan inaugura su propia Emisora Radial la cual se llamó "Radio Codazos" que tenia como lema..." Dediquenos un Boton en la Radio de su Auto."...Pues encabezados por esta emisora y el F.I.E.L fustigó de una forma implacable a "Artalejo" y se incitó a la población que concurriera masivamente a dichas instalaciones para demostrar el repudio a sus expresiones vende patrias.....Muy pronto Artalejo se vio rodeado de turbas enardecidas que querían su cabeza y milagrosamente pudo escapar y buscar asilo en una embajada...Hasta aquí la historia de este valeroso hombre el cual se le debe de render tributo el día que Cuba sea libre, pues fu, el primero que con una valentía fuera de lo común se enfrento al Tirano...Nota: Los datos que, en este escrito aparecen , han sido proporcionados por mi abuelo..!! recuerdos que quedaron marcados en su mente con una huella indeleble .....Su nombre es: Arturo Galindo y cuenta con la edad de 70 años posee una memoria prodigiosa y están basados en hechos de la vida real y acontecimientos que ocurrieron en Cuba....Carlos Alberto Galindo. CUBA-L Mailing list: cuba-l@geocites.com ttp://www.geocities.com/Eureka/Plaza/2075/

Castro, Fidel 1960 (accessed 8-27-06) -Speech on:“the Revolution will not stop.” Revolucion (Revolution), Havana, 7 March 1960 ttp://lanic.utexas.edu/la/cb/cuba/castro/1960/19600307 Fragment from introduction: “Dr Fidel Castro made it quite clear that the evidence collected excludes the possibility of an accident and that this must therefore have been sabotage although the actual sabotage action was not performed on the shore of Havana.” Fragment of speech: “…first of all, we conclude that this was sabotage and not an accident. And that I am sure of; nobody should doubt that because – what else could have caused it? Millions of tons of explosives are transported all over the world each year and we have no reports about ships being exploded (This is obviously false L.D.); here, in Cuba, we have been shipping and handling explosives for many years and we have never had any news of any kind of explosions. Of course, we remember the Maine whose mysterious explosion nobody has ever been able to explain perfectly well; this turned into a cause of war because the nation to which that ship belonged arrived at the conclusion that this must have been an act of hostility on the part of the supporters of Spain; this was true even though that country could not carry out any investigations here, even though they could not do what we did here, even though they could not interrogate anybody and talk to the workers or crew members; they could not conduct…” (I have a list of major explosions of this kind L.D.)

Davies Catherine 2002 review of María de los Reyes Castillo Bueno, Reyita: The Life of a Black Cuban Woman in the Twentieth Century, as told to her daughter Daisy Rubiera Castillo, translated by Anne Mclean, (Durham: Duke University Press; London: Latin American Bureau, 2000) Reviews / Comptes Rendus. ttp://www.historycooperative.org/journals/llt/50/br_30.html “the story stops in 1960, when Reyita is 53, shortly after the death of her son, a member of the July 26th Movement. He was killed in the explosion of the ship La Coubre in 1960.”

Lamot, Paul 1999 Encinosa, Enrique. (1994, second edition, 1995. Cuba en Guerra. Historia de la Oposicion Anti-Castrista 1959-1993. The Endowment for Cuban American Studies. Cuban American National Foundation. p. 36-37 ISBN: 1-884619-00-2) states that the ship La Coubre de Le Havre (that makes it Belgian) blew on March 3, 1960. The Polvorin de Punta Blanca, in Luyano, blew on June 27 of the same year. > PL Date: Thu, 26 Aug 1999 19:27:01 -0400

Padilla, Heberto 1984 La muerte y la brujula. Nuevo Herald, El (Miami, FL) July 26, 1984 final edition, editorial section. p. 7 My notes I never knew or heard of Luis Lorenzo Gonzalez I read that he a simple self taught country folk and a fighter in the struggle against Batista, I did not know him then. He was sentenced to twelve years of imprisonment by the Castro government at the time of La Coubre explosion, and later to more jail time as he was accused of being a smuggler since a police search turned up a compass and two oars and the Cuban government under foreign pressure for repression wanted to portray the resistance as mere common criminals. Luis Gonzalez was fascinated by the 1931 novel on the Venezuelan War of Independence “Las lanzas coloradas” (Red lances) by Arturo Uslar Pietri. For that reason Luis Gonzalez always wanted to go to Venezuela. Finally in the 1980í when many political prisoners were released he arrived in that country to die of a worn out heart at about age 45, however he died free but sad because his wife and child were still held in Cuba."

Regalado, Tomas 1985 La Coubre: 25 anos después. Nuevo Herald, El (Miami, FL) March 6, 1985 Final edition, ED section page 5. What the Cuban people were not told all safety rules were waived, there were no safety inspections, that most experienced dockworkers were replaced by rebel soldiers, unloading was done directly at the docks no lighter barges were used, and after the first explosion nobody, stopped the crowds of militias and rebels running to the rescue. However, Castro had horrendous photographs of mangled bodies and over a hundred coffins to parade and an excuse to blame the US and turn to the Soviets.

El Jigue 11-26-06

[edit] El Coubre research as my block continues

Will check on El Coubre but there seems no point except to gather data to polish a chapter of mine, since Durova keeps blocking my access. Still I have been chasing many details some of which refer to the notoriously hardnosed Abakuá who apparently they either were withdrawn or refused to unload (this may or may not related to concurrent immediate executions) and replaced with rebel soldiers many of whom died in the explosion, e.g.:

Regalado, Tomas 1985 La Coubre: 25 anos después. Nuevo Herald, El (Miami, FL) March 6, 1985 Final edition, ED section page 5. which reads in part "What the Cuban people were not told all safety rules were waived, there were no safety inspections, that most experienced dockworkers were replaced by rebel soldiers, unloading was done directly at the docks no lighter barges were used, and after the first explosion nobody, stopped the crowds of militias and rebels running to the rescue. However, Castro had horrendous photographs of mangled bodies and over a hundred coffins to parade and an excuse to blame the US and turn to the Soviets."

or

"Routon, Kenneth 2005 Unimaginable Homelands? "Africa" and the Abakuá Historical Imagination Journal of Latin American Anthropology, November 2005, 10, (2) 370-400 Posted online on January 11, 2006. [14]“La identificación abakuá con Africa sugiere que aún cuando exista una conciencia de pertenencia a la diáspora africana, ella responde no tanto a una nostalgia por un pasado mítico como a la necesidad actual de legitimizar una identidad de grupo y reivindicar una autonomía religioso-ritual frente al estado revolucionario cubano."

I still cannot find a list of names of the dead, just scattered details such as in:

Castillo Bueno 2000 Reyita: The Life of a Black Cuban Woman in the Twentieth Century, as told to her daughter Daisy Rubiera Castillo, translated by Anne Mclean, (Durham: Duke University Press; London: Latin American Bureau, 2000) this book has only a brief mention of the loss of her son, Anselmo “Monín" Rubeira, a rebel soldier in the explosion.

As to the good father McKniff you can find details in:

Anonymous 1999-2006 (last accessed 8-19-06) John J. McKniff, O.S.A. Augustinian Missionary and Pastor of the Poor. [15]

Cancio Isla, Wilfredo 2000 El cura se `La Coubre' a un paso de la canonización. El Nuevo Herald December 18, 2000 final edition, panorama section p. 15 A.

and a reference I have mislaid by Ann Ball who also wrote: Ball, Ann 2001 Rogelio "Francisco" Gonzalez Corzo 1932 – 1961 Cuba. In : Faces of Holiness II: Modern Saints in Photos and Words Our Sunday Visitor Publishing. Division, Huntington, Indiana ISBN 0879734094 pp. 222-229. [16]

El Jigue 11-26-06

[edit] "blacklisting" tests

[17] This pro-Castro sites passes black list filter

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[18] This Cuban exile site passes list (for now (:>))

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[19] This university archive piece (a Castro speach) also passes list

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ttp://www.welcome.to/NelsonCalderon This Cuban exile source giving data on La Coubre source is black listed as "spam" "The spam filter blocked your page save because it detected a blacklisted hyperlink. You may have added it yourself, the link may have been added by another editor before it was blacklisted, or you may be infected by spyware that adds links to wiki pages. You will need to remove all instances of the blacklisted URL before you can save." This results in a post being blocked. There is no apparent indication of how or why this site was blocked.

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[20] This site put together by a French communist and which follows the official Cuban line is not blocked.

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[21] This Cuban-exile site is not blocked (yet (:>)

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Well live and learn El Jigue 11-26-06

My access to editing is still blocked El Jigue 11-26-06

The block was implemented at 23:21 GMT on 12 November and the most recent posts to this page were made around 22:00 GMT on 26 November. You should be free to edit now. I'll unblock manually just to make certain (in case the block timer got auto-reset in the final hours). Post again if there's any further problem. Durova^Charge! 00:46, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

Can't wait for the next excuse to block me (¿ Que van a inventar ahora ?), still until then as a good Jigue should, I will splash and play in this forest pool for perhaps some willing and wanting, naked and nubile Taina will wander by as is their legendary want. El Jigue 11-26-06

As long as you observe site policies you have nothing to fear from me. Given your knowledge of the subject I hope no other block will be necessary. I do wonder about your research skills, considering some of the allegations you've made about me. But there's nothing personal in this - just doing my best to maintain site standards. Respectfully, Durova^Charge! 20:16, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

Thank you, i appreciate it for in your view you are correct. However, from my point of view the way you see this matter readily can be taken to suggest a mind set and a life view which could be interpreted to raise some quite interesting inferences. El Jigue 11-27-06

One of Wikipedia's cornerstone policies is to assume good faith. Don't worry, I'm not raising this point as a buildup to blocking you, rather I'm explaining something. You helped raise one article to FA and have essentially blogged on four talk pages. Suppose every editor who was a major contributor to a featured page did the same thing: if we suppose that each featured article has 2 or 3 major contributors and round off the number of featured articles to 1000, then 10,000 Wikipedia talk pages would become blogs. Obviously that would set an untenable precedent for the rest of the encyclopedia since many of those blogs would be on featured articles or good articles and it would be basically unenforceable to write a policy stating only FA contributors could do this. So either I make a special exception for you and only you - damaging my own reputation for fairness and objectivity - or else I enforce an equal standard. As far as I'm concerned you're welcome to edit in accordance with policy, but I'll block again if your actions merit it, and if you woke up tomorrow morning with a change of heart and sung Fidel Castro's praises it wouldn't make one whit of difference. Durova^Charge! 00:53, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

Durova, go ahead.... since you define "blogging" as contributing data you disagree with.. such actions will only make Wikipedia look bad. BTW your time stamp seems to place you in Eastern Europe, you should change that since it looks bad in this context..... El Jigue 11-27-06

Please stop blogging the CUBA, FIDEL CASTRO & RAUL CASTRO talk pages. Furthermore, why are you adressing me as Buendia and why are you continuing to suggest Administrator Durova has communist sympathies? GoodDay 22:04, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

Hi EJ, I'm a bit confused - are you referring to me as "Giles?" If so, who is "Giles" and why the source of confusion? Cheers.

Goatboy95 22:48, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

Giles is an alusion to "Giles Goat-Boy" by John Barth. Giles ends up by being "shafted" in a dramatic way. This is an excellent reference on academic infighting. Buendia is an reference to "El coronel Buendia" one of the Gabriel Garcia's Marquez's Magic Realism characters.. The good Colonel instead of being defeated wins battles further and further away from the capital. This cite refers to sophistry in writing history. El Jigue 11-29-06

I see. Thus, you believe I have presented some sort of fallacious argument somewhere down the line?

EJ, you certainly have a unique sense of humour. Colonel Buendia? I'd prefer the nickname GD. GoodDay 21:09, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] the Obelisk

EJ, you should add the Obelisk fact to the Fidel Castro article, as you have varifiable sources to back it. PS- personally Castro doesn't deserve an Obelisk; hopefully when democracy comes to Cuba (and it will), the obelisk will be destroyed. GoodDay 20:53, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Alright, we'll waint until the obelisk is built. GoodDay 21:50, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] History of Cuba

(Taken from La Coubre explosion) page

Please see History_of_Cuba#Cuba_under_attack, where I've written a section on the British capture of Havana in 1762 if you are interested.--Zleitzen 16:53, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

Thank you will read again for more detail. Some consider the resistance to the English by the Mayor of Guanabacoa "Pepe" Antonio as a starting point for Cuban Independence thought. I also have a chapter that deals with some of that, apparently the Spanish did not have enough muskets at the time to give them to the militia. It gets very detailed. BTW there is a famous rhyme from that time which reads:

"Las Muchachas de la Habana no tiene temor de Dios and andan con los Ingleses en los bocoyes de arroz?"

Did not see if you mentioned that most of the English and troops from the English Colonies in North America died of yellow fever. Dunno why so many died for mortality is normally far from 100% but apparently the treatments must have aggravated the disease or these troops were particularily susceptible. El Jigue 12-1-06

I briefly mention that disease ravaged Edward Vernon's earlier attempts to build a colony at Cumberland bay. I also remember reading somewhere about the extreme level of prostitution between the British troops and local women going on at the time, perhaps from yourself on one of your monologues in the past, I don't remember. I haven't added much detail, it is simply an overview, but in time the History of Cuba page - which needs a huge amount of work will splinter off and a lot more detail can be explored. As for the diseases, it should be remembered that the British, though conquerors of a huge empire by methods yet to be truly comprehended, still need inoculations to leave the house. And perhaps more than any people in the world are utterly useless in temperatures higher 65 degrees Fahrenheit - I once fell asleep on a Canary island beach in my younger days, and needed to be treated for severe burns before being released back into society. Where I was stared at by disbelieving locals who uttered "El diablo" under their breath at the shocking sight of my scarlet face.--Zleitzen 08:13, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

Z: not sure that prostitution is the correct word, any more than a modern single woman may accept a good meal and a nice evening, the line is blurred. The Taino and Guajiro traditions expect sexual encounters as a normal part of life. As to the virulence of yellow fever among the English such things could relate to scurvy and lack of vitamin C to fight off disease.....El Jigue 12-2-06

Perhaps they were the first generation of jineteras? -- Polaris999 17:47, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

Polaris: Not really, such had existed for a long time before in Cuba (as well as elsewhere), in the first saga written in Cuba there is mention of the forest "nymphs" coming out to greet the victors of Bayamo after they defeated a pirate (:>). One can also note that prostitution continues even in the most advanced and prosperous societies. One also notices that Madelyne is still a favorite name for women, El Jigue 12-4-06

[edit] Venezuela

Have you got any idea why so many communist, socialist groups (incl hardline ones, according to corresponding wikipedia articles) have supported the centre-right opposition?[22] Just some personal hatred between different commies and Chavez, or...? Constanz - Talk 16:12, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

Constanz "dunno" there are always more radical movements wanting overthrow even the most radical communist government. There is another factor to consider "puritanism" the Chavez government is quite corrupt, and this offend many including those on the extreme left. And yet this corruption is probably a reason (aside from the price of oil) why the Venezuelan economy has not completely collapsed. If you are corrupt you do not want a Pol Pot type to arise and take all you have stolen from you, and thus honest private commerce can exist in the shade of these "protectors." El Jigue 12-4-06

[edit] Hemmingway

Thanks very much for your link to Larry Daley's piece on Hemmingway, EJ. One question I would have to ask - if Castro viewed Hemmingway so poorly, why did he keep a picture of them together in his office for so many years? Castro, a man known for harsh denouncements of those he doesn't like, spoke well of Hemmingway throughout his life. Much food for thought.--Zleitzen 01:08, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Talk:Fidel Castro

Hello, EJ. You should check the 'edits history' of the Fidel Castro discussion page. An anon user(or users), are using your moniker. The IP address of the anon-user in question is 63.113.199.109. GoodDay 01:45, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

Nevermind, I know now it's you on that new IP address. GoodDay 21:37, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] El Jigue

See Discussion page on User:63.113.199.109, for my apologies. GoodDay 01:59, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

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[edit] Thanks

El Jigue,

Just wanted to drop by and thank you for your words of encouragement left on the Cuba talk page. Although I've decided to "hang my hat," I really appreciated your comment and wish you the best.

Take care,

Goatboy —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Goatboy95 (talk • contribs) 20:53, 2 February 2007 (UTC).

[edit] Attacked

I'm getting attacked from all corners EJ! After my mauling from Goatboy, Teemu Ruskeepää has returned to moderate my "anti-Castro attitudes". [23].--Zleitzen 17:29, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Welcome!

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[edit] Thank you

Wiseman, that is most kind, however I am not a "joiner" prefering to be independent of all entanglements El Jigue 2-5-07208.65.188.149 00:42, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Unsourced edits

Welcome to Wikipedia. We invite everyone to contribute constructively to our encyclopedia. However, adding content without citing a reliable source, as you did to Neo-Taino nations, is not consistent with our policy of verifiability. Take a look at the welcome page to learn more about contributing to this encyclopedia. Thank you. -- Donald Albury 13:46, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

Taino Ti Donald: You might find it appropriate to keep in mind that I wrote most of that page, I will insert the appropriate references (which already are in the extensive bibliography of that page) after I submit sample chapters of my next book to the publishers today.

One of my ancestors used to sing (notice the spelling of Siboney):

• Siboney con orgullo me llamo
• Y soy hijo del sol del del agua
• Con mi arco y mi linda piragua
• Soy feliz y no espero otro bien

• Yo sufro, yo sufro, yo sufire
• Por volver a mi Cuba querida
• A Cuba, a Cuba done donde yo naci.

see also:

• Ripan S. Malhi,1 Jason A. Eshleman,2 Jonathan A. Greenberg,3 Deborah A. Weiss,2 Beth A. Schultz Shook,2 Frederika A. Kaestle,5 Joseph G. Lorenz,6 Brian M. Kemp,2 John R. Johnson,7 and David Glenn Smith2,4 2002 (accessed 2-2-07) The Structure of Diversity within New World Mitochondrial DNA Haplogroups: Implications for the Prehistory of North America Am J Hum Genet. 2002 April; 70(4): 905–919 [24]

El Jigue 2-20-06-7208.65.188.149 17:40, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Reference style

Hi EJ, the wikipedia reference style is indeed a bit unusual, but getting it right is key to ensuring that material stays on the page! Take a look at this edit here : [25] where I've added details of Castro's violent student days. This is quite a controversial subject, but has stayed on the page - without any question - because I've managed to format the citations correctly, and I've also deliberately referenced sources not known to be anti-Castro. I've discovered that in many cases, using soures against type is helpful. I have a book of Cuban history by Richard Gott which is considerably favourable to Castro, and thus becomes good source to use when citing a point critical of the revolution when it is found. It stands to reason in the minds of ourselves and other editors that if a leftist like Gott is detailing a negative aspect, then it must have additional validity. Try to think in terms of protecting key information from all comers in the best way you can. -- Zleitzen^(talk) 17:00, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] March 2007

Welcome, and thank you for experimenting with the page Cuba on Wikipedia. Your test worked, and it has been reverted or removed. Please take a look at the welcome page to learn more about contributing to our encyclopedia. If you would like to experiment, please use the sandbox. Kimon^talk 01:58, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

If this is a shared IP address, and you didn't make the edit, please ignore this notice

[edit] Bay of Pigs problem

When someone talks about an unknown "fox" general of hispanic/russian origin who was in the red army, I tend to be skeptical. and it seems to be slanted to the Cuban side. JohnHistory 22:34, 25 April 2007 (UTC)JohnHistory

John that is merely a bad translation, not unlike Rommel who was the "Desert Fox." I used a number of sources at least two are mentioned in the article. Read: # de Paz-Sánchez, Manuel 2001 Zona de Guerra, España y la revolución Cubana (1960-1962), Taller de Historia, Tenerife Gran Canaria ISBN 8479263644; # Lynch, Grayston L. 2000 Decision for Disaster: Betrayal at the Bay of Pigs. Potomac Books Dulles Virginia ISBN 1-57488-237-6; Hunt, E. Howard 1973 Give us this day. Arlington House, New Rochelle, N.Y. ISBN-10 0870002287 ISBN-13: 978-0870002281; Johnson, Haynes 1964 The Bay of Pigs: The Leaders' Story of Brigade 2506. W. W. Norton & Co Inc. New York. 1974 edition ISBN 0-393-04263-4:Franqui, Carlos 1984 (foreword by G. Cabrera Infante and translated by Alfred MacAdam from Spanish 1981 version) Family portrait with Fidel. 1985 edition Random House First Vintage Books, New York. ISBN 0394726200 pp. 111-128;Vivés, Juan (Translated to Spanish from 1981 Les Maîtres de Cuba. Opera Mundi, Paris by Zoraida Valcarcel) 1982 Los Amos de Cuba. EMCÉ Editores, Buenos Aires. ISBN 9500400758. Besides I was in Cuba at the time. El Jigue208.65.188.149 23:02, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Francisco Ciutat de Miguel

Hi El Jigue IP! I've just created the article. Please review. -- FayssalF - ^{Wiki me up®} 13:49, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

A stub of Erneido Oliva as well. -- FayssalF - ^{Wiki me up®} 14:16, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

FassalF: Thank you, some of the info was new to me, it seems to be an excellent start and is much appreciated. I will be quite busy the next few days, but will work on both after that. El Jigue208.65.188.149 19:08, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

P.S. Somewhere in the back of my mind I place Ciutat as a junior officer in the Rif War(La Guerra del Rif), do you know if this is so. El Jigue208.65.188.149 19:13, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

I worked for a couple of weeks Chemical weapons in the Rif War and had to do a lot of research but never heard of Ciutat participating in the Rif War. Probably because he was a communist while the Rif War was fought by Nationalists. Indeed, he surely was too young at the time because he was still in the Academy during 1930's, a decade after the war was fought. -- FayssalF - ^{Wiki me up®} 20:21, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

Fayssaf: Ciutat,if he was there, would have been a very junior officer. You seem to be correct; although Spanish traditional armed forces often had very young officers. El Jigue208.65.188.149 20:00, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] 10 May 2007

Welcome to Wikipedia. It might not have been your intention, but your recent contribution removed content from Cuba. Please be more careful when editing articles and do not remove content from Wikipedia without a good reason, which should be specified in the edit summary. Take a look at the welcome page to learn more about contributing to this encyclopedia. If you would like to experiment again, please use the sandbox. Thank you.--Guinnog 14:15, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

G: You might note that I have long been a major contributor to the Cuban page. El Jigue208.65.188.149 14:32, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

G: You have sure bolixed up the Cuba page and deleted whole sections, I have tried to correct your deletions without success, since there is some kind of software problem now it you fix it. El Jigue208.65.188.149 14:49, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

G: You have sure bolixed up the Cuba page and deleted whole sections, I have tried to correct your deletions without success; since there is some kind of software problem now it is up to you to fix it. El Jigue208.65.188.149 14:50, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

I disagree. In this edit I restored a deletion you made. There doesn't seem to be anything wrong with the software that I can see. --Guinnog 17:03, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

G: Perhaps you did not notice but your "corrections" deleted afigure showning "La Raspadura" the obelisque in the former Plaza Civica (now known as La Plaza de la Revolucion) which I liked and had corrected long ago and a whole section on the so called structure of the Cuban government (which is a farce, and I do not like), El Jigue208.65.188.149 17:19, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

Perhaps I owe you an apology if your edit was not intended as vandalism. Please use edit summaries in future, and that will make it easier to see your intentions. --Guinnog 01:57, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] May 2007

Please do not delete content from articles on Wikipedia, as you did to Luis Posada Carriles. Your edits appear to be vandalism and have been reverted. If you would like to experiment, please use Wikipedia:Sandbox for test edits. Thank you. Ali 16:48, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

If this is a shared IP address, and you didn't make any unconstructive edits, consider creating an account for yourself so you can avoid further irrelevant warnings.

Ali: I hope you are not the Venezuelan oil minister and former guerrilla Ali Rodriguez [26] nor Tariq Ali [27] [28])a paid partisan of Chavez since such would mean that you are part of the process and thus not allowed by Wikipedia rules to edit this article. BTW Your allegation of vandalism is incorrect. El Jigue 208.65.188.149 17:56, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Luis Posada Carriles

• I noticed that you changed, "Documents released by the National Security Archive on May 3, 2007 reveal the links Posada had to" to "Documents released by the National Security Archive (a private data source) on May 3, 2007 are taken to "reveal the links" Posada had to".

The National Security Archive is indeed a private data source. However, the documents in question are FBI and CIA reports that have been declassified. There isn't any real doubt that they are authentic. The only question would be what the FBI and CIA reports mean. The reports often contain information from less than reliable informants. As we have seen with Iraq and the weapons of mass destruction, CIA reports aren't always accurate. Thus, I plan to change this to not even mention the National Security Archive and just mention and link the reports directly. I'll try to indicate that such reports aren't always accurate.

On another subject, while Wikipedia should always try to be completely accurate and neutral and your edits are good to try to make sure that anything posted is factual, you seem to be trying to go beyond this sometimes because Posada is an anti-Castro person. It is important to remember that even the side of good can have bad people in it. The Allies in World War II included Stalin and my support for the Allied side there would not include trying to excuse his conduct. According to the NY Times, Posdad pretty much admitted to placing bombs in tourist hotels and restaurants in Havana. Bombing Cuban secret police or even military barracks is an act of war, bombing civilians is terrorism. Regardless, his article should be fair and neutral and I will work to help make it that way. I hope we can work together to do so. Fanra 22:12, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

F: Tue, however, the problems with the National Security Archive documents include that they are that they are selected by the archivists of this often militant organization; they are not original documents but those which have been selectively censored and it is not always clear if the sections blacked out include material other than censored by the source. Still if one keeps in mind those caveats these documents can be useful. I would prefer if the National Security Archive origens of the documents were mentioned... selective removal of material, in one socks (:)) is not unknown in US archives. However, this is better than the 70 year or so limitation of some European countries. Will try and insert names and origins of passengers on flight 455. Trying to track down a report that the Cuban government did not wish the plane's recovery when this was offered by the British Government. There may be far more to this than seems apparent at first sight. 208.65.188.149 22:51, 12 May 2007 (UTC)El Jigue

[edit] Passenger list

• You seem to have missed my post where I said that the passenger list doesn't belong in Luis Posada Carriles but in Cubana Flight 455. If the list is somehow important to the story, then you can place a short comment about how it is important and why in Luis Posada Carriles, but not the whole list. If you disagree with this, please let's discuss it. But I think you can see that the list belongs with the Cubana Flight 455 article. Fanra 23:51, 12 May 2007 (UTC)
• If you go to Cubana Flight 455 you will also find some information which might help you:

  All 48 passengers and 25 crew aboard the plane died: 57 Cubans, 11 Guyanese, and five North Koreans. Among the dead were all 24 members of the 1975 national Cuban Fencing team that had just won all the gold medals in the Central American and Caribbean Championship; many were teenagers. Several officials of the Cuban government were also aboard the plane: Manuel Permuy Hernández, communist party director of the National Institute of Sports (INDER); Jorge de la Nuez Suárez, communist party secretary for the shrimp fleet; Alfonso González, National Commissioner of firearm sports; and Domingo Chacón Coello, an agent from the Interior Ministry. The 11 Guyanese passengers included 18 and 19-year-old medical students, and the young wife of a Guyanese diplomat. The five Koreans were government officials and a cameraman.

  Fanra 00:10, 13 May 2007 (UTC)
• I'm going to remove the passenger list from Luis Posada Carriles. It serves no purpose. If there was a need to list the passengers, it should go in Cubana Flight 455, not Luis Posada Carriles. However, I can't even see the need for it there, even if that is the proper place for it, if it was needed anywhere at all. See Wikipedia:List guideline. If you look at Cubana Flight 455, you will see what I listed above, that they break down the people on the plane into groups, therefore illustrating who was on board. There is no need to list every single person. Really, I can't see why you feel you have to list everyone. Encyclopedia articles on disasters do not list everyone who died, only the numbers of how many died and the names of notable people. Lists of people who died can be linked in the External Links. It may seem callous to not list everyone but Wikipedia is not a Memorial, see Wikipedia:What Wikipedia is not. What purpose does listing the name of every passenger serve that can not be served better by just listing the notable people or a break down of the people, like the Cubana Flight 455 article has already done? The breakdown shows that there were officials of the Cuban government aboard, and that innocent people were also aboard. That covers both sides of the POV. Going beyond that is unnecessary and beyond what an encyclopedia is for. Should there be any other facts about anyone on board that you feel are important to the article, you can post them without listing every single person. Fanra 18:57, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Carlos the Jackal

• "Hugo Chavez' lack of objectivity in regard to terrorism in general is readily demonstrated by comparing his demands to try Posada with his attempts to get Carlos the Jackal freed from French imprisonment.[34][35]"

  Ok, I followed both those links. 34 says nothing about Chavaz. 35 mentions that Chavaz called him "a good friend," and "Dear compatriot" and "with profound faith in the cause and the mission, now and forever."

So unless you have some sources you can cite that say so, we should remove that he is attempting to get Carlos freed. You can substitute that he calls Carlos a good friend, but we have to be accurate. We have nothing that shows he is trying to get him freed. Fanra 01:07, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

F: Thank you: you make an excellent correction and a fine point considering that Chavez when calling Carlos, a well defined and very definite terrorist, a good friend is even better evidence of partiality. Very careless of me to rely on my memory, I will find reference on Chavez seeking the Jackal's release El Jigue208.65.188.149 15:56, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Lead Section Changes

• Please read what I wrote on the discussion page about your changes. Here is my version of how it should read:

---

Luis Clemente Faustino Posada Carriles (born February 15, 1928) is a Cuban-born Venezuelan anti-Castro militant.

A former CIA operative, Posada has been accused of involvement in various terrorist attacks and plots in the Western hemisphere, including involvement in the 1976 bombing of a Cuban airliner which killed seventy-three people[1][2][3] and is said to have admitted to his involvement in other terrorist plots including a string of bombings in 1997 targeting fashionable Cuban hotels and nightspots, these bombings resulted in one fatality (details see below).[4][5][6] In addition, he was jailed under accusations related to an assassination attempt on Fidel Castro in Panama in 2000, although he was later pardoned by the Panamanian authorities.[7][8]

Posada, nicknamed Bambi,[9] is regarded as a hero by some Cuban exiles hostile to the government in Havana. According to Pepe Hernandez, president of the Cuban American National Foundation, "He's been fighting one of the worst tyrannies this continent has experienced," Posada, who has denied involvement in the Cubana 455 bombing, insisted his "only objective was to fight for Cuba's freedom".[10] His opponents consider him a terrorist and label him as such; however, his supporters point out that details of Posada's involvement is not documented well enough to label him such. They point out the people he allegedly attacked are not civilians, although there seems to have been considerable collateral lethality to innocents, the attacks have involved opposing violent activists (North Korean agents, Cuban security forces, etc.).

In 2005, Posada was held by U.S. authorities in Texas on the charge of illegal presence on national territory before the charges were dismissed on May 8, 2007. His release on bail on April 19, 2007 had elicited angry reactions from the Cuban and Venezuelan governments.[11] The U.S. Justice Department had urged the court to keep him in jail because he was "an admitted mastermind of terrorist plots and attacks," a flight risk and a danger to the community.[6]

---

Also, if you are saying, "his supporters point out that...", then you need to put in citations to his supporters pointing this out. Fanra 15:41, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Passenger List Redux

I'm removing your Passenger List since you haven't responded to my several notifications that it doesn't belong in the article and serves no purpose. Fanra 15:41, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Quality of edits

Hi. Look, you've been here for years now, but you're still conducting yourself as if you've been here for weeks: in terms of style, in terms of original research and clear citations, in terms of neutral point of view. This cannot continue indefinitely. Thanks. El_C 20:39, 14 May 2007 (UTC) Como Ud manda comandante, wait wait a minute have not taken orders from El C(omandante) for almost 50 years.... BTW Fidel Castro it seems is now ineffective, and Raul is drunk, who the heck is in charge of Cuba....El Jigue208.65.188.149 22:22, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Edits to Cuba on 22 July 2007

In the </ref> (close ref) code, the virgule goes before, not after, "ref." You're messing up the article a lot with your incorrect edits. Deor 23:54, 22 July 2007 (UTC) Thank you, took care of that "vigule." El Jigue208.65.188.149 22:18, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Recent edit to Raul Castro lacked source

On a recent edit to Raul Castro you discussed a visit to Italy and potential significance thereof; you mentioned a citation, but failed to provide it.

Due to BLP concerns, I have reverted your change. If you have a verifyable citation and can re-add the material with the proper citation, please feel free to do so. But please be more careful with adding biographical material and making sure that you cite appropriately. Thank you. Georgewilliamherbert 21:39, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

George you might have done a search of news reports yourself and found one of the reports on this matter, and added it to the page, instead of erasing the addition. The way you have chosen to address this circumstance by simple deletion could readily be interpreted as the action of a partisan of the Cuban Government something I am sure was not your intention. El Jigue208.65.188.149 23:14, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

That is a borderline personal attack on me. Please don't do that again, and please remember that it's the responsibility of the person adding biographical material to make sure it is properly sourced and accurately attributed, per WP:BLP.

I recommend you to review WP:NPA and WP:BLP and make a better effort to comply with them in the future. Thank you. Georgewilliamherbert 23:17, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Fidel Castro Article

It is irrelevant what my interests are, but I frankly don't care too much about one small Caribbean island. Give me a good reason or suggestion about what we might do with your contribution to the talk page, and then I will do my best (as will others) to accommodate into the article. That is all I ask. Thank you.IamMcLovin 23:49, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Cuba

You appear to have added a personal/irrelevant link to this article. Your change has been reverted. If this was incorrect, let me know. Bfigura ^(talk) 15:27, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

If you continue with outright provocations the block length will increase substantially. El_C 22:50, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Protest El_C is blocking and deleting for political reasons

I have been blocked by El_C for obvious political reasons. Please go to his page for readily verification. El_Jigue208.65.188.149 23:00, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

You're the one who removed the Israel flag, not me.^[29] Next time, look more closely before you insinuate racism/ethnocentrisms. ^[30] All I'm doing is advancing the point that "Jews" should never be spelled in uppercase, as "jews," and you go on one of your infamous diatribes. El_C 23:10, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

El_C you know that is not true. El Jigue208.65.188.149 23:15, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

The.links.don't.lie. El_C 23:19, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

Not to mention that the 1st time you placed the flag after the name (whereas all the other ones have it preceding it), and the second time, you failed to link to the Jew article. After years of misformatted edits, you're still appear to be incapable of preforming even the simplest formatting-related tasks. Time to shape up is now long overdue, El Jigue. You cannot keep abusing Wikipedia indefinitely. El_C 23:19, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

I'm not particularly happy with this user's bias, but the lowercase "jews" usage dates back a while in the article (days at least), and doesn't seem to be something El Jigue added. I think you may have been too hasty on that point... Georgewilliamherbert 23:48, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

GWH thank you El_Jigue208.65.188.149 23:58, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

It does look like you were the original author of that section, though, El Jigue, back on Sept 5th: [31] Georgewilliamherbert 00:00, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

I do not think that is correct. L'Shana Tova El_Jigue208.65.188.149 00:01, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

I went back 500 edits, then walked forwards until that section appeared (in several jumps forwards and back, but...). The diff I provided is the first one I found that section in, and you were the author. Unless the section was there more than 500 edits ago, and you were just putting it back, that appears to be your work from Sept 5.

I don't think that you being the original author of that section automatically makes you antisemetic just due to the capitalization. Any number of people could have corrected it in the almost 10 days since then; lacking a pattern of antisemetism, I can assume it was lack of understanding rather than abusive intent there at the beginning. Georgewilliamherbert 00:07, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

Perhaps the whole section, however, I never knew any Palestinians in Cuba, and only one Lebanese family. I certainly would not have inserted the Palestinian flag, and absolutely certainly not then omitted the Israeli. Although it would be more proper in this case to use Askenazi type national flags to indicate national origins e.g. Polish, Russian and Rumanian. Then Sephardic Jews would probably be offended if either the Spanish or the Turkish flag were used or worse the green banner of the Califate of Bagdad. It is unlikely that I wrote Jew in lower case, although possible because I am bilingual and "Jew" in Spanish is "judio" or "hebreo" written in lower case as are all nationalities in Spanish. El Jigue208.65.188.149 00:14, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Bay of Pigs

El J/208, with respect, I have posted to Bay of Pigs discussion page pending action on your recent edits. I anticipate your response.

As a very recent but registered editor I would have to ask you, why not sign up? Your name and IP address are obviously inextricably linked. Also I would predict that were you to change either IP# or moniker, you would readily be identified by the Wiki community by your content and/or writing style. They (maybe we now) seem to be pretty good at that. Why not take the next step?

I'm prepared to start from scratch and answer to everything I contribute or change from day one forward. You have made a lot of contributions. Aren't you able to do the same? Franamax 02:15, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

Franamax I am being blocked right now, apparently because El_C accused me of using jew in lower case and then blocked me. Apparently the records indicate I did not do that. However, using lower case to express nationality is correct in Spanish. As to your questions on the Bay of Pigs and Ronald Herboldt. The world of agents (apparently it is rude to call them spies) such as that South African Ronald Herboldt makes activities difficult to prove, however, later Herboldt became a senior communist party member in Cuba. Several "things" indicated that he was a communist when he arrived in Cuba these include his immediate acceptance into high level Cuban government circles even though he arrived very late in 1958 a circumstance which normally would have given him low rank. (Believe me I was there and although I had spent quite some time in the rebel forces I always remained at lowest rank during the War Against Batista.) The ship, the recycled liberty vessel Constantia, that he used to reach Cuba was transporting sugar, a matter that seems most odd since South Africa is a major sugar producer. During the Bay of Pigs the Cuban Government placed a most rigorous security crackdown, Soviet specialists were already in charge of security, and they were directing the jailing and execution of all and sundry including good number of former rebels from the War Against Batista (I was lucky I was only jailed). I am sorry you worry about Spanish language sources, but there is little one can do about that, since in Cuba Spanish is the usual language. and scholars of Cuba, must be able to read that language. Thus, much of the best work on Cuba is written in Spanish, for instance the histories of Professor Manuel de Paz. For instance the Cuban version of the sinking of the Baire (source is author Norberto Fuentes, who before he defected was a Cuban government propagandist) at Rio Las Casas, the mouth of the river of that name, is available only in Spanish. Former Comandante Huber Matos for instance does not speak English (testy old blighter he is (:>). Most of the work of scholars visiting Cuba who write in English, is most carefully monitored by their minders, who do such tasks as go to the Cuban National Library and pick up materials; thus this material is of interest but must be evaluated with great caution. I could go on and on El Jigue208.65.188.149 12:18, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Bay of Pigs executions deleted

New user 216.239.212.187 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/216.239.212.187 without previous activity (except for on entry on German language detail) has deleted the following from the Bay of Pigs Invasion page:

Between April and October 1961, hundreds of executions took place in response to the invasion. They took place at various prisons, particularly at the dreaded Fortaleza de la Cabana and El Morro Castle, 18th-century Spanish fortresses built to protect Havana Harbor. Castro had converted their dungeons into prisons, their walls into paredones de fusilamiento (firing squad walls). Infiltration team leaders Antonio Diaz Pou and Raimundo E. Lopez, as well as underground students Virgilio Campaneria, Alberto Tapia, and more than one hundred others died within these colonial prisons. ^[1]

No explanation was offered

[edit] Interesting image of Che

An interesting image of Che is offered at:

http://www.powerlineblog.com/archives/2007/09/018473.php

[edit] Illustrations of El_C Page

In my opinion I find it very interesting that El_C personal page carries photographs and text promoting both Lenin and Ernesto Guevara. This is tremendously hurtful to people who have lost friends and relatives to communist terror. Personally I lost a friend and fellow anti-Batista guerrilla to one of "Che" Guevara's executions, he was a courier for the non-communist Frank Pais organization (not the later Raul Castro communist group). Not only was my friend killed, but he was maligned and robbed of the money he was bringing from Santiago to the Sierra Maestra.

In this free society in which I live and support, this action on the part of El_C such is merely a tolerated consequence freedom of speech and I defend his right to do so. However, this same expression of freedom of speech, readily suggests that much of that El_C writes and many of those who El_C blocks (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special%3ALog&type=&user=El+C&page=), derive at least in part from his own political opinion. The block log of El_C seems to suggest that he blocks something on the order of a thousand contributors a day (often at a rate of more than one block a minute); how he does all that I do not know. Perhaps El_C is a computer program blocking from a list provided by others. In other words El_C appears to demonstrate a level of POV that he does not tolerate from others who differ politically from him, and he does this a a tremendous rate. El_Jigue208.65.188.149 21:55, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Ejercito Rojo deletes citation to Cuban internal infighting in the Raul Castro site

One notes with wry amusement that Ejercito Rojo 1950 (e.g. Red Army 1950) has deleted reference to internal struggles inside Cuba http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Ra%C3%BAl_Castro&diff=159050012&oldid=157854840

"Exile sources which seem to know a great deal about internal Cuban politics suggest a power struggle between Raul and younger pretenders (delfines) is underway. [32] It is notable that these critics of the regime use terminology proper for a monarchy. "

A flattering report on a Raul Castro speech was left untouched. El Jigue208.65.188.149 14:16, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Antonio Blanco Rico said a communist party member

Fuentes, Norberto 2004 La Autobiografia De Fidel Castro Editorial Planeta, Mexico D.F ISBN: 8423336042, ISBN: 9707490012 p. 692 states that Batista’s military intelligence “SIM” colonel Antonio Blanco Rico killed by urban rebels of the non-Castro “Directorio” was a secret communist party member and when this was made known to Castro he regretted the killing. p. 692 Joaquin Ordorqui is quoted as saying “Si, Fidel. El coronel Antonio Blanco Rico, jefe del Servicio de Inteligencia Militar. Era un hombre del Partido (comunista) “ Description of this assassination is on pages 689-693 El Jigue208.65.188.149 14:23, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

Joaquin Ordorqui was involved with the Humbolt 7 betrayal, Will see if I can find a reference. E; Jigue208.65.188.149 19:06, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

Apparently it was Marcos Rodríguez, alias Marquitos a young communist who did the actual betrayal, however Joaquín Ordoqui, one of the most important members of the Partido Socialista Popular (PSP, the Cuban communist party) and his wife Edith García Buchaca, who then lived in Mexico and according to this reference received between $2,000 and $3,000 U.s a month via Teté Casuso y Teresa Proenza.

• Rodríguez, Osvaldo Fructuoso (accessed 9-20-07) Humboldt 7 y el hombre que delató a mi padre. s G o o g l e's cache of http://www.autentico.org/oa09876.php as retrieved on Jul 27, 2007 09:59:48 GMT.To link to or bookmark this page, use the following url: http://www.google.com/search?q=cache:Qte0I_Wfn98J:www.autentico.org/oa09876.php+%22Joaquin+Ordoqui%22+Humboldt&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=1&gl=us

There is reason to believe that this source is reliable since theauthor is the son of one of the those killed at Humbolt 7, an apartment building near the Malecon and not too far from the Hotel Nacional. And because years later when the matter was no longer deniable, Castro had Marquitos executed and Joaquín Ordoqui imprisoned for life.

Thus it is reasonable to assume that Joaquín Ordoqui was a multiple agent, he certainly was a communist, and according to this source on the CIA payroll, and know well known as an informant for Batista. El Jigue208.65.188.149 19:30, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

Heavily politicized, "edited" and altered to protect the communist party are found in:

• Departamento de versiones taquigráficas del Gobierno Revolucionaria 1964 (last accessed 9-20-07) Segunda vista del juicio contra el delator Marcos Rodríguez. Bohemia April 3rd 1964. www.latinamericanstudies.org/cuba/Bohemia-4-3-1964.pdf

• Unknown transcriber 1964 (accessed 9-20-07) Vista del juicio que se sigue contra el procesado Marcos Rodríguez Alfonso, en la causa numero 72 de 1959, por los delitos de traición y confidente. Transmitido por Radio Rebelde El DIA 23 de marzo de 1964. Copia textual. www.latinamericanstudies.org/cuba/marcos-rodriguez-3-23-1964.pdf

El Jigue208.65.188.149 00:15, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Cuban government repression POV?

Apparently reports on Cuban government repression are merely POV or so according to Oxymoron83 at http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Cuba&diff=159193264&oldid=159186487

Who inserted {{NPOV-section}} in human rights section of Cuba page. El Jigue208.65.188.149 18:15, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Ronald Herboldt

There is no question that Ronald Herboldt was a communist since he held medium high level positions in the Cuban government where such is a requirement. A more open topic is whether he was a communist at the time he arrived in Cuba, or during the Bay of Pigs Invasion (this is probable because he was quarter master a position of considerable responsibility. Several other points are not clear one the report that the ship he took to Cuba apparently carried manganese ore (not sugar)to South Africa, why I do not know, this mineral is as common in South Africa as Cuba, as is sugar.

"In 1958 Frank Wilkinson (788) abandoned his farming activities in Rhodesia (now Zimbabwe) to become Navigation Officer at Gordon's Bay. Some ten years earlier Frank had been Master of the "Constantia" - one of the three Victory ships which inaugurated trading by the newly established South African Marine Corporation. The vessel's first round trip from the United States was not without mishap. After dropping the pilot off Durban at the commencement of the return voyage, the "Constantia" struck an "uncharted" object in the vicinity of the north breakwater and was forced to return to port with its full cargo of manganese ore. Repairs were carried out without dry-docking, using the new technique of underwater welding - a first in South Africa."

from Old Boy's Association of the S A T GENERAL BOTHA S (accessed 9-17-07) Search results for Constantia http://www.generalbotha.co.za/ (this can be inferred to be a right wing source, but I do not know this for certain).

Herboldt is commonly described as being a Person of Color this is not readily sustained by the only photograph I have found of him (or of an actor playing his role) see page 24 of Tri continental film vestival 2007 held in Cape Town www.ukzn.ac.za/ccs/files/TCFF07progFINAL.pdf

"I was a shipmate of Ronald on that voyage the 'Constantia' made to Cuba - the captain was George Smith [the navigator was IAN Branch, who lost his Master's ticket some years later after crashing his first command off Cape Town. The 'Connie' sailed lightship (unladen) from NYC to Guayabal to load unrefined sugar which was delivered to New Orleans for refining. After New orleans we loaded mixed cargo at various Gulf and Eastern Seaboard ports and NYC (Brooklyn, Red Hook)for the return voyage to Cape Town. A day out of CT there was a fuel oil blowback which covered the newly-painted ship with the black stuff. It took a day of 'soogying' by all hands to clean her sufficiently for the return to home port. There is no question that Ronald was NOT a communist at that time; nor was Fidel Castro - communism arrived with Che Guervara and became entrenched as a result of the US embargo, the Bay of Pigs, Missile Crisis, and all that. Socialists yes, but during Batista and the US Mafia's reign who wouldn't be? Ronald, who died recently, was a 'Cape Coloured' ethnically." <BenVee@btinternet.com>

Thank you Ben, that was useful, tell me about when the Constantia ran aground and the manganese ore in the cargo hold. Please give more details they are most interesting really liked the comparison of Herboldt and Castro, since it is my understanding that Fidel as well as Raul were recruited by the Cuban communist party somewhere between in 1944 and 1948. In this interpretation of history Raul was an overt communist, and Fidel apparently was a covert recruit... If this were true we would both be correct, since my definition of communist (note lower case) includes both overt and covert members, and apparently you define Communist as openly linked to the Cuban communist party (Partido Socialista Popular). BTW Glad you spelled Guayabal with b and not v, I presume you mean the port of Santa Cruz del Sur on the Gulf of Guacanayabo, just north of Manzanillo [33]. This would be a sugar exporting port. Did you load the sugar in sacks or in bulk. It must have been difficult to navigate there since the water is relatively shallow and there are many small keys, reefs and shoals. El Jigue208.65.188.149 22:00, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

P.S. Batista was far more heavily pigmented than Herboldt appears to be judging from his photograph and politically was far more to the left than is generally assumed. Even Pablo Neruda, praised him for that. El Jigue208.65.188.149 22:05, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

"If the Constantia did run aground under Captain Wilkinson's command, I would have been 10 years old at the time. There might be a confusion with her sister ship SS Vergelegen which I know split its hull rounding the The Cape in heavy weather and had to be welded 'at sea'. As regards Fidel's communism: For his first attempt at revolution in Cuba (1956?) he and a small force were trained in Mexico by the CIA. I believe their attempted landing from the yacht Granma was intercepted and Fidel spent some time in jail. However, I have not researched heavily into the subject and at the time relied an Radio Miami for info. - I could still receive Radio Miami on AM all the way to Cape Town. Yes, I took one taxi trip to Santa Cruz [not sure here as I remember the name Santa Cruz but not that of Amancio, but the trip seemed to go a short distance directly inland. Not sure about about Las Tunas province either as I remember Camaguey province. But then geo-political names change all the time!] to tour the crushing plant there, and one in the New Orleans refinery. The sugar was in sacks. BTW my 06:00 duty was to scrub the flats on the engineering deck. They were never so clean. The sugar tracked in by engineer and deck crew apparently broke down the oil usually tracked up from the engine room. The only bulk cargo I remember the Connie carrying was tallow from SW Africa (Namibia) and bauxite which we loaded from barges off British Guyana bound for Alcan at a port on the St Lawrence seaway. We had a Cuban pilot and there didn't seem to be any problem coming in. On about the third day in port the 'rebels' took over the ship, and Ronald disappeared, and the white officers were barred from going ashore. My memory after almost 50yrs is that we were held there for at least a couple of months. On New Years Eve I heard on Radio Miami that Batista had fled the country and very early the next morning we were released (at least the guards had disappeared) or 'escaped' putting in to Cienfuegos later that day for refueling and revictualing. On my afternoon shore leave I walked into town and came across the main square. There was a huge crowd with everyone dressed either in fatigues or red and black, the Anarchist colors. When I asked '?Que passa?' I was told that Fidel had just finished a 6-hour speech. There were still people on the platform which could have included the Castros and Che. Unfortunately my camera had run out of film and I of money. From later photos I felt sure that I recognized Raoul and Che. It would have been a trek for Fidel to get there from Santa Clara where some accounts have it he first came down from the mountains, but that is what I saw. Later that afternoon, New Years Day, they began their 'triumphal march' on Havana. I have a photogragh of Ronald on my desk right now, from his funeral program sent by my friend Vince Kolbe who met some of our surviving shipmates at the funeral. He appears to be just a shade lighter than myself - a sort of rich mahogany. You can google 'Cape Coloured People' for many articles on this ethnic group. Quite different from the US or British understanding of 'colored'--- 27.09.07 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.78.124.70 (talk) 01:33, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

Ben: That is most interesting information. Thank you, the red and the black, were Castro's colors. You might check the CIA involvement in Mexico and other details since they conflict with what is generally accepted. For instance Castro's flirtation with the CIA, apparently with without relinquishing any other ideological alliances is usually dated circa 1948, where his true loyalties lay is subject to discussion. The New Year found Castro at the old sugar mill "Central Oriente," and he reached Havana on the 8th. However, much of what you say, most especially your first hand memories, is novel and useful to me and others can I have your permission to add details. As Batista grew in power apparently his skin color decreased (;>))El Jigue 208.65.188.149 19:24, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

Ben will check and see who was in the middle provinces who could look like Castro in December 1958. Camilo had too full a beard; will check photos of such as Victor Bordon, Jaime Vega etc....to see if there is any who could have resembled Castro. El Jigue208.65.188.149 19:03, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

Ben: You are correct on date of grounding of Constantia see: Igpen, Brian (research by Willie Le Roux, photographs and illustrations by other contributors). 1996 Safmarine. Fernwood Press Capetown ISBN 1874950113 p.23 talks of grounding on August 22, 1947 at Table Bay, South Africa

[edit] Bay of Pigs Invasion Content of "Soviet Advisors" Section

There is a challenge to sources on Francisco Ciutat de Miguel prior and during this Invasion. The quoted source is (Paz-Sanchez, 2001, pp 189-199) de Paz-Sánchez, Manuel 2001 Zona de Guerra, España y la revolución Cubana (1960-1962), Taller de Historia, Tenerife Gran Canaria ISBN 8479263644

Professor Manuel de Paz Sanchez is an eminent Spanish historian, with residence in Universidad de La Laguna, Tenerife, Canary Island. He writes prolifically and has writen many historical articles and books. Google lists 510 citations to him. Professor de Paz is one of the most eminent historians on recent events in Cuba. Lists of some of his work are found at

http://www.edicionesidea.com/aplicacion/autores/ver.asp?ID=510 http://www.edicionesidea.com/aplicacion/autores/ver.asp?ID=241

Publications of Prof de Paz include:

Manuel de Paz Sánchez et al.: El Bandolerismo en Cuba. Presencia canaria y protesta rural, 2 vols., Santa Cruz de Tenerife, 1994.

M. de Paz Sánchez: “‘Maten canarios hasta que se les canse el brazo’: la presencia canaria en Cuba hasta la crisis de 1933”, revista Del Caribe, Santiago de Cuba, 1996, nº 25, pp. 63-73.

PAZ SÁNCHEZ, M. de: Wangüemert y Cuba, Santa Cruz de Tenerife, 1991 y 1992, 2 vols.

PAZ SÁNCHEZ, M. de: Zona rebelde. La diplomacia española ante la Revolución cubana (1957-1960), C. C. P. C. , Santa Cruz de Tenerife, 1997.

Manuel de Paz Sanchez Zona De Guerra: Espana Y La Revolucion Cubana, 1960-1962 b(8479263644 9788479263645 84-7926-364-4)

Manuel de Paz Sanchez La Ciudad: Una Historia Ilustrada De Santa Cruz De La Palma by (8479264276 9788479264277 84-7926-427-6)

HERNÁNDEZ GONZÁLEZ, M. y M. de PAZ SÁNCHEZ: "Caballero Sarmiento y Canarias. Notas sobre un comerciante ilustrado", A.E.A., nº 31, Madrid-Las Palmas de Gran Canaria, 1985, pp. 457-476.

[edit] Registered User

Hello El Jigue, I sure wish you'd reconsider and become a registered user. It would make things easier for you at Wikipedia and would make things easier for others. Please, give it try. GoodDay 17:19, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

Goodday, thank you for your suggestion that is most kind. Still have scruples about it, but will rethink. El Jigue208.65.188.149 01:49, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] October 2007

Welcome to Wikipedia. Everyone is welcome to contribute constructively to the encyclopedia. However, talk pages are meant to be a record of a discussion; deleting or editing legitimate comments, as you did at Talk:Cuba, is considered bad practice, even if you meant well. Take a look at the welcome page to learn more about contributing to this encyclopedia. Thank you. Gscshoyru 19:31, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

If this is a shared IP address, and you didn't make the edit, consider creating an account for yourself so you can avoid further irrelevant notices.

[edit] I did not remove material from talk page

I did not remove material from talk page that was "Beltran" and now I have to restore it. El Jigue208.65.188.149 19:37, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

Yes, you did. See this diff. Gscshoyru 19:46, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

No way that was Beltran who removed the stuff I wrote, how he did it is a matter of speculation. Why would I want to remove my own material. El Jigue208.65.188.149 19:54, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

No, that was stuff that he wrote, and you removed it. The diffs show it was you who did it. All I did was warn you not to do it, you don't have to deny it. Gscshoyru 20:00, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

Amazing you are accusing me of removing the material that I inserted. That is not logical. El Jigue208.65.188.149 20:02, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

Perhaps you're confused as to what I mean -- you removed his comments from the talk page. That's what I was warning you about. I'm not talking about the actual article at all. Gscshoyru 20:11, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

Let me repeat, I did not remove the material from the talk page. I never remove such comments either written by myself or by others because I understand the process. "Dunno" how it happened. Still it is such things that keep me from belonging to Wikipedia. Right now I am trying to repair damage caused by ignorance in the Maine section. What we have now is a very old analyses, heavily influenced by the Spanish government of the time. However, I have not erased any of it but merely pointed out that this is a minority (and quite antique) view of that circumstance. El Jigue208.65.188.149 20:33, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

For the second time, see this whether by accident or purposefully, it shows that the entire section he added was removed, by this ip. Whether it was purposeful or not, I warned you not to do it. Denying that you did do it is foolish, as the diffs don't lie. But if you understand not to do it again, then that's good, since that's the whole point of the warning. Just be more careful in the future, if it was an accident. Gscshoyru 20:39, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

Please do not accuse me of prevarication. All I know is that I did not erase this section. It is a mistake to believe that the Wikipedia difference data is infallible, my personal experience is that it is not, especially when two or more contributers are submitting simultaneously. Any human or computer construct is subject to errors, perhaps the system itself should be subjected to greater scrutiny. El Jigue 208.65.188.149 20:50, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Sign up for Wikipedia!

Hello, 208.65.188.149, and Welcome to Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia! You don't have to log in to read or edit articles on Wikipedia, but creating an account is quick, free and non-intrusive, requires no personal information, and gives you many benefits, including:

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• Your IP address will no longer be visible to other users, because there are bad people in the world that try to do bad stuff.

We hope you enjoy your time here on Wikipedia and that you choose to become a Wikipedian by creating an account. Feel free to ask me any questions you may have on my talk page. By the way, you should sign your name to your posts and comments with 4 tildes:~~~~.

-Goodshoped 19:40, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Regarding your edits to Cuba:

Your recent edit to Cuba (diff) was reverted by an automated bot. You have been identified as a new user or a logged out editor using a hosting or shared IP address to add email addresses, phone numbers, YouTube, Geocities, Myspace, Facebook, blog, forum, or other such free-hosting website links to a non-talk page. Please note that such links are generally to be avoided. You can restore any other content by editing the page and re-adding that content. The links can be reviewed and restored by established users. Thank you for contributing! // VoABot II 04:33, 11 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Gossiping/Blogging talk pages

What must myself and others do, to convince you - Please, stop using the talk-pages as gossip pages. How many times must we tell you that. GoodDay 21:22, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

At first I thought, it was a 'language barrier' that was causing you to not understand. But now (regretfully) I see you have absolutely no respect for Wikipedia's policies against Blogging/Gossiping at talk pages, nor does it seem you're ever going to. Sorry, but I've just lost all respect for you. GoodDay 20:42, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Dirty words

I see you like to add dirty words to the Cuba article... Karpeth (talk) 22:03, 18 November 2007 (UTC)

Explain El Jigue208.65.188.149 (talk) 22:23, 18 November 2007 (UTC)

Karpeth good catch that must have crept in when using another version in corrections. If I had really wished to insert a "dirty" word it would have been more imaginative. El Jigue208.65.188.149 (talk) 22:33, 18 November 2007 (UTC)

Acctualy, according to the page history, you added it.Karpeth (talk) 13:13, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Your ownership issues

Consider this your final warning. Your ownership of Cuba is unacceptable. You have reverted every edit you've come across today, including reverting minor formatting fixes and reverting back to versions that have vandalism in them. You are not the only editor of the encyclopedia, and you need to figure that out as soon as possible. Please read Wikipedia: Ownership of articles. If you continue in this manner, it's inevitable that you will eventually be banned. Natalie (talk) 01:56, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

I'm not really sure what you're talking about. You're behavior is disruptive, disrespectful, and will not be tolerated. Are there other people I've been warning, besides, yourself, that would lead you to think there is a purge? No, there aren't. For the last time, stop accusing every single person that disagrees with you of pro-Castro-ism, stop mindlessly reverting every single edit made to Cuba (including re-inserting vandalism!) and get over yourself. Natalie (talk) 04:52, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

I have opened a discussion on your editing style at the Administrator's Noticeboard. Natalie (talk) 05:26, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Block

You cannot seem to see that Wikipedia is a collaborative project either here or at any other language project. Until you can understand this, you are not only blocked but banned from the English Wikipedia as you cause more damage to it than helping it with your ownership of the Cuba article.—Ryūlóng (竜龍) 05:33, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

To those who seem to be in favor of blocking free speech and the very principle of wikipedia: I am for one amazed that someone's access is being blocked. The opinions of EJ might be wordy, and might not fit in the talk page, but that's what auto archival is for. Just because you don't agree with his edits and you happen to have the power to prevent his access doesn't give you the moral or ethical right to do so. The purpose of blocking is to prevent vandalism and destruction. Not the exchange of opinions and information. Unless of course you believe in an entirely different moral or ethical system, in which case you might be the one needing blocking.

To EJ: I do suggest that you register. I know these individuals are intentionally trying to get under your skin and it seems you are intentionally not registering as a result. The purpose of registration is being misused by these individuals to prevent you from making changes, yet they also have enough of a point that they can hide behind it. Registration will avoid a lot of the trouble. If you are concerned about privacy, well, that was long gone when your IP address was attached to your first posting.Aki Korhonen (talk) 19:20, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

Aki:

Thank you, my concern is that observing that such is happening my registration could be take to suggest that I tacitly accept the ethics of many in the more politically oriented "pages" and areas of Wikipedia. Right now Natalie Erin Martin a 24 year old graduate from Antioch Ohio, with very little knowledge of the Cuba and Cuban history finds herself in the unenviable position of having to justify all changes. Thus, I am merely watching the changes she is inserting, or allowing, which vary from the absurd (Spanish Civil War is viewed by her as a small conflict, and mention of Fabio Grobart the senior Kremlin agent in Cuba from the 1920s to 1990s and mentor to Raul and Fidel Castro -- Raul has called Grobart his teacher-- was deleted in one place). As a result much mention of the English adventures in Cuba and other matters of import in Colonial times, the modern day export of skilled labor (e.g. doctors, sailors, shipyard workers) and the misappropriation of their wages are gone and a few parts of the text have been altered to yield a marxist interpretation of history. I find their implicit racist interpretations of my background amusing and informative. As it stands at present perhaps 80% of the article is still derived from my contributions and I feel satisfied with that.

Keep up your good work on tin "whiskers" it is my understanding that this is quite important. El Jigue208.65.188.149 (talk) 20:21, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

Thanks. It is possible that wikipedia is doomed by the fact that its very nature tends to attract those with idle time, radical views, and little actual knowledge to back it all up. What I find inexcusable are times when some who try to inject balance or sanity are shouted down by a chorus. Oh well. It seems that the worst that can happen is that all the work of countless volunteers will be wasted, as this experiment is destroyed by content that is so inaccurate and unreliable as to be useless for any purpose other than brainwashing.

As to tacitly accepting the ethics of some yahoos somewhere just because you register, I can assure you that there are many very ethical individuals who are registered and who contribute. Their total contributions would, I expect, greatly outweigh the lack of any by some others. I leave it to you to decide on that topic, as I agree with the position that you need not be registered to contribute. The whole point of not requiring registration to contribute is fundamental to the experiment. A known pattern in history is to require registration before regulation. Regulating content easily leads to propaganda. Hence no enforced registration. Shame on those limiting the free flow of verifiable information. Aki Korhonen (talk) 20:44, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

Aki:

Thank you for your kind words, they have given much thought El Jigue208.65.188.149 (talk) 21:31, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

El Jigue, your comments above demonstrate why we ended up in conflict in the first place. Please forgive me if I'm overexplaining something, but you seem to misunderstand what I am trying to do. You write: "Right now Natalie Erin Martin a 24 year old graduate from Antioch Ohio, with very little knowledge of the Cuba and Cuban history finds herself in the unenviable position of having to justify all changes. Thus, I am merely watching the changes she is inserting, or allowing, which vary from the absurd (Spanish Civil War is viewed by her as a small conflict, and mention of Fabio Grobart the senior Kremlin agent in Cuba from the 1920s to 1990s and mentor to Raul and Fidel Castro -- Raul has called Grobart his teacher-- was deleted in one place)." Firstly, I'm 23. It says that quite clearly on my userpage, which makes me wonder how carefully you actually read what is written here. You also are misrepresenting, or misunderstanding, why I deleted the sentence about the Spanish Civil War from the main Cuba page.

The page Cuba is an overview page. It is not the place for an expansive discussion of the history of Cuba. There is a page, History of Cuba, which should have more information than the main Cuba page]]. I do not think that the Spanish Civil War is a minor conflict, nor did I ever say so. What I said is that it is too minor in regards to the history of Cuba to be included in the main article about Cuba. The appropriate place for that information is the article History of Cuba. Part of the problem with your editing is that you have expanded the history section of Cuba beyond all reason, without making any edits to the subarticle on Cuba's history. When I attempted to streamline the page, you mindlessly reverted.

The footnotes, which I have attempted to shorten, are obviously contrary to Wikipedia's citing policy. It is excessive and annoying to quote paragraphs and paragraphs of information in a citation. And finally, unlike yourself, I use edit summaries for every single edit and also explain more complex situations on the talk page.

Contrary to what you might think, I actually do not have strong feelings about the political and economic situation in Cuba. I came to the Cuba article for some basic information for a class I am taking and found the page to be a formatting mess. When I attempted to correct these problems, you jumped in to push your ideological viewpoint. Your behavior is simply not acceptable for a collaborative encyclopedia. I suggest you consider slowing down, reading what people say carefully, and putting a lid on the paranoia. Natalie (talk) 20:14, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Has Freedom warrior been blocked too

It appears that Freedom warrior has been blocked for edits on the Fidel Castro page. Is this so? El Jigue208.65.188.149 (talk) 19:50, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

El Jigue, I haven't been blocked from that page, yet. Since there hasn't been much movement on that page, I've been using the peace and quiet to clean up a couple of other articles of interest. Nonetheless, I'm sure that some pro-regime editor (either on the island or with no ties to Cuba, as can be imagined) will start something soon. As you well know, keeping these pages truthful is an incredibly difficult task. The fact is that we're up against individuals who do not justify their edits (EjercitoRojo), know absolutely nothing about the on the ground situation in Cuba, and administrators who are willing to abuse their prerogatives to perpetuate the myth that Cuba is a socialist workers paradise. We must persist, however, because of the importance of this forum and the fact that a lot of individuals form their first impressions on here. We cannot allow this page to convey misinformation. Freedomwarrior (talk) 21:21, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

FW: Thank you, I am keeping a log on the Cuba page of all that shows ideological bias, there has been a little since I was banned but not sufficient to make a good case, when or if this process reaches a certain point, the press will be contacted again. Last time the material was also forwarded to an academic and the resulting paper enjoyed at least some circulation. Natalie has been identified (see other sections above). Will work on identifying others if their ideological biases are followed by actions that would justify such. El Jigue208.65.188.149 (talk) 22:52, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

BTW that line about Castro being forced to go communist e.g. at http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Fidel_Castro&diff=prev&oldid=173011889 is bunk he and Raul were recruited very early (1944-1948) by Fabio Grobart. This is not rumor for Raul memorialized Grobart as his teacher, and there are officially authorized photographs (almost comical because of the great difference in height)showing FC and Grobart in tight embrace. El Jigue208.65.188.149 (talk) 23:12, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Off they go to remove material

Apparently "Captin John" is misreading the section on Class Privilege for instance he interprets the link to say Castro's villa, when the material discusses the many villa the "Cuban President" has. And in really convoluted "logic" wishes to remove the entire section. El Jigue208.65.188.149 (talk) 17:17, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

Firstly, mister(?) exile cuban, if you think he is wrong, don't blog about it, just counter him, if he is wrong. Secondly, all his claims are valid. Thirdly, he wouldn't remove if you said it shouldn't be removed. If you want to watch it be removed and wail, just do that. Karpeth (talk) 18:42, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Dear Miss Martin

Dear Miss Martin Thank you for your kind attention to my posts they were most illuminating. El Jigue208.65.188.149 (talk) 22:22, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

Karpeth, in English but not in Spanish, the word Cuban is capitalized. El Jigue208.65.188.149 (talk) 22:22, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

Captin John. I suggest you leave that section alone, if only for the simple reason that it seems apparent that you do not read Spanish well. Castro has not one as you state, but many large number of mansions all over Cuba as the citation indicates. As to the credibility of the sources, if you had read further, you would see that the sites of these mansions is corroborated both by photographs and satellite imagery. The statement that access to higher education is limited by approval of the local political committees of vigilance, who have to vet the candidate for her/his political reliability. I fully expect you to remove this section; however, the consequences of such actions to the reputation of the Cuba page, and Wikipedia in general may be more far reaching than you imagine. As to your own page one might well conclude from reading it that your jesting remarks about your political allegiance suggest a POV that is not exactly impartial. El Jigue208.65.188.149 (talk) 22:22, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] More deletions from the Cuba page

This was deleted two days ago although it was on Fox news and had been previously accepted and defended:

• This division of hospitals has been the object of some criticism from abroad and within the island. According to the government's detractors, the quality of care available to those who go to such clinics is superior to the quality that the average Cuban citizen can obtain. Yet recent video smuggled out of Cuba paints a far different picture.[34]

And to those whose first language is Spanish, when criticizing "right wing Cubans" please use "rabid" rather than the incorrect "rabious" (from rabioso). El Rábido208.65.188.149 (talk) 17:56, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

Now Public Health section is completely unbalanced, and turned into an advertisement for health tourism. El Jigue208.65.188.149 16:38, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Your block and your talk page

Hi, El Jigue. As you're obviously aware, you've been blocked for several months. Since your block administrators have been relatively lenient in letting you orate on your talk page. However, Wikipedia's blocking policy is quite clear that, while you are blocked, you should not be using your talk page to attempt to edit the article. If you'd like to contest the block, please do so.

If you'd like to discuss the block and the reasons leading up to it, I'd be happy to do so. I would also be happy to explain some of the core policies you seem to not understand. I think you probably have a lot of knowledge to contribute to Wikipedia, but your current editing style is too disruptive to allow you to continue editing. Mentorship may be available, if you're interested.

So far, however, most of your talk page messages have been of the same variety for which you have been blocked. If this continues, your talk page will likely be protected for the duration of the block. Natalie 16:46, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Please feel free to attempt to make me a non-person

Natalie: I hope you realize that eliminating my criticism of Wikipedia will not protect the page on Cuba or any other page from criticism for attempting to enforce ideological conformity. In particular, your efforts to protect the Cuban government's health system from criticism, and such will at best only result in harm to the reputation of Wikipedia as an unbiased source, and at worst place this page in same category as such as Plowman Press, or the Militant. Thus with this in mind please feel free to continue your attempts to make me a non-person on Wikipedia, since the harder you try to do this the worse Wikipedia looks. Thank you for your time and attention. El Jigue208.65.188.149 20:17, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

I'm not trying to make you a non-person. You were blocked (not by me, I might add) and blocked users have no right to edit any part of Wikipedia. You have not filed an unblock request for whatever reason, but your continued misquotation and misrepresentation of other editors from your talk page means you will no longer have this avenue. I will be protecting the talk page shortly - if you wish to contest your block you'll have to do so through email.

Your suggestions that my attempts to copyedit an article somehow indicate support for any particular political ideology are ludicrous, and indicate that you have not actually read any messages that have been sent to you. I'm sorry the concept of collaboration and good faith are beyond you. Natalie 20:27, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

Your user and user talk page have been protected for the duration of your block. I'm sorry you were not willing or able to reform. If you decide at some point that you are interested in learning how to properly participate in a collaborative project, you can email me at natalie dot wiki at gmail dot com. Natalie 20:30, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

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