Talk:2005 UEFA Champions League Final

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Good article 2005 UEFA Champions League Final was a nominee for good article, but did not meet the good article criteria at the time. There are suggestions below for improving the article. Once these issues have been addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake.
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Contents

[edit] Goal timings

I've changed the timing of Liverpool's first two goals to 54' and 56' and altered "Six minutes of madness" to "Seven ...". The source for the new timings is from the UEFA website [1]. With the first goal scored in the 54th minute and the last scored in the 60th minute, the time between the first and last goals could be as short as 5 minutes or as long as 7 minutes, depending on exactly when the goals were scored within the minute. UEFA describes the goals as having been scored in 7 minutes [2] Peter Harriman 08:42, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

It would be useful to acquire the exact goal timings, with seconds, and then there really could be little argument. aLii 11:37, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

I'll see if I can find them. Peter Harriman 11:39, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

I've looked, but I can't find exact timings anywhere. I guess someone with a video of the game will have to re-watch it, stopwatch in hand! Peter Harriman 12:09, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

Review of footage on youtube shows Gerrard scoring at 53:04, Smicer at 55:03, and the penalty and third goal at 59:51.67.10.62.211 05:20, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

So the elapsed time is 6:47 - seven minutes. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Barfbagger (talk • contribs) 22:48, 6 April 2007 (UTC).

Surely Alonso's goal shouldn't be marked as a penalty as he scored with the rebound?

No beacause it wasn't a penalty, was it? El-Nin09 19:46, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Neutrality

I would question the neutrality of this article. The language suggests it was written by a fan of Liverpool. Can the language be adjusted? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Rico987 (talk • contribs) 18:52, 27 April 2007 (UTC).

I agree with the above statement. This sentence in particular stuck out to me: "The sense of injustice felt by Milan supporters mirrored that of the Liverpool fans after the first half's second goal, as in both cases the goalscorers had benefited from an unawarded free kick." Is this sentence not game analysis, rather than recap? It seems to be trying to justify the "equality" of the goals for both teams. (Note: I am neither a Liverpool or AC Milan fan). - JML

[edit] Nearly misssed...

It didn't nearly miss Alonso when Smicer took his '20 yard shot', it was Baros I'm going to change it now. Jazza5 10:24, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Penalty shoot-out controversy

From the article: "in the second round Andrea Pirlo's shot was saved by Liverpool's goalkeeper Jerzy Dudek, although controversy later arose over the goalkeeper's supposed movement off his goal line before the ball was kicked". Why the 'guarded' way of saying this? I just watched a recording of that match and it is clear that Dudek moves before the shot. Shouldn't the article reflect this? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Squishycube (talk • contribs) 21:20, 1 September 2007 (UTC)


[edit] GA review comments

Here we go...

  • "...thus lifted the trophy for the fifth time to keep permanently...." - English? Y Done
  • Good idea to use Liverpool's full title in the infobox i.e. with the F.C. added. Y Done
  • "Liverpool began their campaign at the 3rd Qualifying Round where, in the first (away) leg against Austrian Side Grazer AK two goals from Steven Gerrard secured a 2–0 victory for the club[2]."
    • Over capitalisation e.g. Qualifying Round, Side... Y Done
    • Badly placed reference, see WP:CITE for where to put them
    • "...in the first (away) leg..." was there a second (away) leg? No. Confusing, rewrite needed for the non-expert. Y Done
    • "...for the club" - which club? Rewrite required. - The Paragraph is about Liverpool so, Y Done
  • Why is the paragraph about Liverpool in the 3rd Q round not in the Liverpool section? Y Done
  • General - check all citation placements per WP:CITE.
  • 1st should be written first. Y Done
  • 54th Minute, over-capitalised - check throughout. Y Done
  • "...17th Minute goal ,..." - space before comma - copyedit required. Y Done
  • Excess spacing between first and second para of AC Milan's route to the final section. Y Done
  • "Milan were given..." used three times in quick succession - try variation, like "..were drawn against..." etc. - Removed
  • "...showed signs of complacency..." - this is POV and original research unless you can find a citation with the direct quote. - Removed
  • Last three paragraphs of the Liverpool section are too short, consider merging. Y Done
  • "Only 52 seconds into the match, Paolo Maldini scored for Milan, scoring the fastest goal and becoming the oldest player (at 36) to score in a Champions League final." - such claims need references. - Removed
  • Is it Hernan Crespo or Hernán Crespo? And avoid overlinking - he's wikilinked at least three times. Y Done
  • "...an exquisite finish...", "brought solidity to Liverpool's midfield", "which is sometimes hailed as the decisive factor in turning the game" - again all POV - needs citation or removal. - Removed
  • "In the final moment of the penalty shoot-out. Television commentator said what had always been Liverpool's fan's greatest dream "And now the European Cup has returned to England and to Anfield" Unknowingly signifying Liverpool's new era." - English? Citation? - Removed
  • The section describing the final needs serious citation.

So, I'm failing the GA for now, it really needs some work on the citations and several POV phrases. The Rambling Man 16:28, 18 August 2007 (UTC)


[edit] Picturtes

This article really needs some more pictures. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Richard LVP Real (talk • contribs) 15:13, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Further review towards GA

Okay, here we go...

  • "It was the fifth time Liverpool had won the competition and, as a result were given the UEFA Badge of Honour to wear appears on there European kits." - terrible English problem here. Y Done
  • "... and got through..." - clumsy, and too many "just"'s...Y Done
  • 1st should be "first" for "1st goal" and "1st game" etc... Y Done
  • Check all references are placed to the right of punctuation as WP:CITE advises. Y Done
  • Kaka is wikilinked twice in a row. No need. Plus, it links to a disambiguation page.Y Done
  • "group" or "Group" games?Y Done
  • "Milan now lead ..." - led?Y Done
  • "Milan also won the second leg at the San Siro 1–0, once again, a goal from Crespo this time on the 61st minute was the difference." - this sounds like Crespo scored in the 61st minute in both games, did he really?Y Done
  • Probably a good idea to mention that AC and Inter share the same ground.Y Done
  • "A.C." or "AC" - consistency required.Y Done
  • Probably best to use British English since this is a European article, half of which is about an English club, so "behavior" needs a u.Y Done lol
  • "Milan were given..." odd turn of phrase, perhaps "Milan drew" or "Milan were drawn against..." Y Done
  • "Away goals rule" doesn't need the A capitalised in the prose.Y Done
  • "Home" or "home" - consistency required. Y Done
  • "Quarter Finals" and "Semi-Final" - hyphen or no hyphen? Consistency required. Y Done
  • Inline link to "Match report" is inappropriate. Either make it an External link or use it as a reference and use {{Cite web}} template. Y Done
  • "net the bounce seemed" - some punctuation missing. Y Done - removed second part.
  • "Liverpool's play in the first half both in attack and defence was below expectations." - OR, cite or ditch.Y Done - ditched
  • "a tight offside" - POV. Just offside or cite "tight". Y Done - Changed to just offside.
  • "a wonderful through-ball" - POV. Cite or remove. Y Done
  • "even the most optimistic Liverpool supporter probably thought the match was over given the apparently vast gulf in class between the two sets of players in the first half." - POV, OR, awful. Non encyclopaedic.Y Done rm.
  • In fact, all of this match report is POV/OR. It needs copyediting by someone else besides the original author. - Y Done
  • Image:Liverpool Champions League.jpg has inadequate fair use rationale.Y Done - New image
  • Trophy section completed uncited. Y Done (I think you mean completely but oh well)

That's it. Again, a considerable amount to do. Let me know when you're done, or if you need help on the way. The Rambling Man 17:17, 15 November 2007 (UTC) Y Done -- WOO HOO! F9T 16:01, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Image:Liverpool V A.C. Milan.svg

Anyone know why this image was deleted? Buc 13:56, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

Nope, but seeing as I am to try and get this to GA or FA soon, i think that a photoshot of action from the match should be used. the BBC should provide some good ones. F9T 17:11, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Fair use rationale for Image:LFC Champions of Europe.jpg

Image:LFC Champions of Europe.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images uploaded after 4 May, 2006, and lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.

BetacommandBot (talk) 13:23, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

Y Done added -- F9T 17:17, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] GA comments

This article is about the UEFA Champions League Final yet the 'Road to the Final' section seems longer than the 'Final' section itself. Most of the road to the final is a quite boring detailing of which minute the goals were scored in at relevant stages. I reckon the 'Road to the Final' could be drastically cut.

There also seems a lot of POV comments in here too.

  • AC Milan easily advanced.
  • unacceptable behaviour from the Inter Milan fans. - Just tell us what they did.
  • Olympiakos then shocked Liverpool
  • A great defensive performance
  • This change meant Steven Gerrard was given the freedom to attack from his midfield position. - recollecting the match this is right, but please provide a reference.
  • At this point the Liverpool supporters in the crowd began to get behind the team even more so than they already had.
  • At this point the game began to settle.
  • Serginho was the first player to take a penalty, possibly put off by Dudek dancing on the goal line, he blasted the ball horribly over the crossbar.
  • Jerzy Dudek, although controversy later arose over the goalkeeper's movement off his goal line before the ball was kicked - as above with Gerrard. There must be a reference out there somewhere.
  • Dudek dived to his right, but somehow managed to reach his hand behind his leg

Quite a few cliches too.

  • At the end of normal time there was nothing to separate the teams - in scoreline maybe. Just say the scores were level at the end of normal time.

Also

  • At the fourth round, Kaká netted for Milan, which, temporarily levelled the score at 2–2. Do you really need to say temporarily. Temporarily for how long? Another team were always going to score at some point.

I reckon the whole article could do with a substantially good copy edit. Peanut4 (talk) 22:13, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] GA review

It's good, but like the other three GA reviews, I have some problems:

Lead
  • The lead section is a little short for an article as this lengh. For a GA, try and expand it to two paragraphs worth of writing.
  • Also in the lead there is this sentence: "It is considered to be one of the greatest ever games of football", clear cut POV. If you wish to keep this you need to word it to say "According to X" or "It is considered by X to be the greatest...". As it currently stands, this sentence suggests that Wikipedia itself thinks this, which it shouldn't because it holds a Neutral Point of View. Y Done
Route to the final
  • I will let go the "easily progressed" bit as, IMO, you've justified it, although you could say that Barcelona would win the competition in the future.
  • I personally think the group stage isn't really worth talking about, personally I'd only talk about two noteworthy games in the group stage - perhaps against Celtic and Barcelona? N Not done
  • "unacceptable behaviour from the Inter Milan fans", can we please try and expand on this - you cannot say something like that without justifying it - some people may take offense. Y Done
  • I think it's worth saying that PSV Eindhoven won the Dutch league a number of times, eg. "...draw against X times Dutch League winners PSV Eindhoven".
  • Same applies with the Liverpool ones. Y Done - but relative to Champions League, as opposed to League titles
Match Summary
  • "who was 20 yards from goal and struck a shot with power and precision, which Baros did extremely well to avoid, past Dida" - Try and avoid needless POV like this for a start. ;-) Y Done
  • Also, I don't really like the idea of the enbolded parts in the Penalty shoot out section. I think you should just delete them because it is mentioned later in the Match Details section Y Done
General
  • Finially, I have a minor problem with the images, I applaud the fact that you've tagged them, but I would like you to add a Fair use rationale specifically for this article, not just a general FU. -Been deleted so I'll get back round to this

Anyway, let me know how you've got on and I'll be happy to got over what you've done.--Phill talk Edits Review this GA review! 13:22, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Inter Milan > Internazionale

I understand that some Internazionale fans can be offended by being called Milan (as this is what AC Milan are commonly referred to, I shall set it to F.C. Internazionale here. // Finns 07:53, 11 April 2008 (UTC)


[edit] BBC consider it to be one of the greatest matches of all time

Just because the source is the BBC website? Believe me there are millions upon millions of people who consider it to be one of the greatest mates ever. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.219.95.3 (talk) 13:09, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

But the source is the BBC, which means that the BBC believe it is, and it may not reflect public opinion. // Finns 20:12, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

If you want, you can add about one thousand sources of websites of newspaper articles which state that it was one of the greatest games ever. It doesn't matter if you're from Britain, Spain, Argentina etc. Millions of people around the world consider it to be one of the greatest mates ever. And that "Considered by the BBC" has been taken out, so now there isn't anything which states it is considered to be on of the greatest matches ever. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.4.227.114 (talk) 12:01, 18 May 2008 (UTC)