Talk:20-Hydroxyecdysone
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I'm pretty sure that ecdysterones are non-androgenic and are not anabolic steroids. Currently ecdysterone "supplements" on the market are indicated for use to increase protein synthesis. Ecdysterone "supplements" on the market geared more toward muscle increase are usualy (commonly, mostly) "stacked" (within' the pill/powder/whatever) with other "supplements" such as Tribulus terrestris and pro-hormones (DHEA, Andostenediol, ect) leaving a large question mark as to wether or not ecdysterones have any significant effect on a human being at all. Furthermore there has been no significant research on ecdysterones, the bits of research that exist were not compiled through the combined efforts of experts but rather by one possibly bought, possible expert and a slew of researchers who's credentials and overall credibility is highly suspect, leaving a even larger question mark regarding their safety and effectiveness all together. I could be wrong but I did some quick research on ecdysterones just now and the information that I find is contradicting both this article and itself. - Mithotyn 16:07, 29 October 2005 (UTC)
GeeJo, could you please reference more reputable sources? This article sounds as if, when read, that ecdysterones are the next generation "under the radar" steroid and if somebody with little to no knowledge of phytonutrients, nutrition or body building would read this they would probably get a quick impression that ecdysterones are effective and safe, when research I have done on the topic is inconclusive that ecdysterones are either safe or effective, mostly effective. Right now I can understand that not much research information exists on the effects of ecdysterones on the human body, like most body building supplements it gets corporate attention from low-key researchers, in this case neither are reputable, and then hires a more seemingly reputable company (often times their own) to examine it and then includes what they wish with their product summary, Bodyonics is infamous for this treachery. I will put the template back up until I get some feedback. Mithotyn 10:19, 31 October 2005 (UTC)
- Finally returned to this page to find the tag and reasoning behind it. The problem is exactly as you described it. There is no unbiased information from reputable sources on human use of the drug. Lacking this, I fell back on the recommended procedure for Wikipedia — simply report what findings there are and cite sources. I completely agree with the factual accuracy tag. There's just not much I can do about it. GeeJo (t) (c) • 17:31, 9 March 2006 (UTC)
It is hard to find any information because many of them are in russian language. From the results of experiments of Todorov et al. (2000) are evident that a single administration of 20E isolated by extraction with liquid carbon dioxide from the roots of leuzea activates the biosynthesis of macromolecules (protein, RNA, and DNA) in organs of mice. A molecular mechanism of the 20E action is apparently very complicated, since the observed variations may result from interplay of at least three groups of processes stimulated by the drug. The first group includes processes related to a nonspecific pregenome activation of the system of secondary cell mediators. This is achieved by the interaction of steroids with receptors of the plasma membrane, followed by activation of the adenylate cyclase and guanylate cyclase systems capable of modulating (stimulating) the protein kinase activity. Various protein kinases, producing phosphorylation of some enzymes and protein factors, affect some aspects of the cell metabolism. Among the protein factors phoshorylated by protein kinases, an important position belongs to the translation initiation factors eIF-4F. This may account for the 20E-induced increase in the level of translation on mRNA present in the cells. The second group of processes contributing to the 20E activity in animals includes those pertaining to the activation of transcription. The data on the dynamics of protein and RNA biosynthesis in mice can be considered as evidence for a two-stage mechanism of the transcription activation – at least in liver, pancreas, and testes, which probably corresponds to the activation of 2 – 3 genes. The third group of processes is manifested by a systemic interaction between various organs. The twenty-day administration of ecdysteron-containing tincture of leuzea on humoral immunity of track and field runners for distances of 5,000-10,000 m increased the working capacity by 10 to 15% and significantly contributed to restoration of the lower IgG, IgA and C3 concentration in blood serum of athletes (Azizov et al., 1997). The preparations elton and leveton developed from leuzea reduced in in-vitro experiments the superweak luminescence of urine, which is evidence of their direct antioxidant effect, and increased physical working capacity of 44 athlets tested by bicycle ergometry with gradually increasing physical loads. (Azizov et al., 1998) Ecdysten and leveton originated from leuzea and preparation Prime Plus (combination of ecdysten from leuzea and pure protein) taken orally for 3 weeks diminished fat content under condition of daily aerobic-anaerobic training and elevated the muscle mass (Gadzieva et al., 1995).From more than 80 species of plants containing phytoecdysteroids only Leuzea extract was shown very safe for humans at even high dosages. The extract did not produce mortality after administration of very large doses (up to 4 g/kg). After administration of relatively high doses above 10 g/kg, there occurred some functional changes in CNS, manifested by weakening of some reflexes, a decrease in muscle tone, an increase of the narcotic effects of chloral hydrate and a tendency towards impaired learning and memory. In doses up to 40 mg/kg the extract was non-toxic. In certain doses in mice and rats R. carthamoides exerted a moderate central stimulation action, increased ambulating and rearing, increased central nervous excitability and improved learning and memory without any pronounced side-effects (Petkov et al., 1984). The leuzea extract applied intraperitoneally to male albino-mice in doses up to 40 g/kg was non-toxic (Petkov et al., 1984). 20-hydroxyecdysone, and polypodine B (5,20-dihydroxyecdysone) in doses up to 10-3 M/3μl of applied solution in Chick embryotoxicity screening test were not embryotoxic (Kosař et al., 1997).
Part of my dissertatin thesis, Kefir
Contents |
[edit] Effects on human
Koudela et al. (1995) present slightly anabolic effects on human, particularly in increased protein synthesis. Sláma (1996) also studied anabolic effects of 20E in Japanese quail, and confirmed the growth promoting effect of this ecdysteroid.
here you may find more: Koudela, K., Tenora, J., Bajer, J., Mathova, A. and Slama, K. (1995). Stimulation of growth and development in Japanese quails after oral administration of ecdysteroid-containing diet. European Journal of Entomology. 92: 349-354.
Sláma, K. (1993). Ecdysteroids: Insect Hormones, Plant Defensive Factors, or Human Medicine? Phytoparasitica 21: 3-8.
[edit] Negative side effects
Are there any negative side effects associated with the use of 20E? If does indeed function as an anabolic steroid in humans, or just by increasing testosterone production, then wouldn't it cause testicular atrophy? Dan Asad 05:19, 25 March 2006 (UTC)
I started taking a supplement with and 20-hydroxyecdysone L-dopa about 2 days ago. It has come to my attention that these chemicals (or supplements or whatever) are anabolic and possibly a steriod, which is cool by me, even though im only 15. But the question i have is that i have had sore muscles in my legs, mostly my quads, which is, coincedently, the only muscle i have been able to excersize (just everyday walking) since beginning the supplement cause I've been unable to hit the gym. Is it natural for this to occour? should i discontinue my supplement? any other advice? thanks.
Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Levodopa" (above site was posted by me, just the same thing under the L-dopa discussion catagory file)
- unsigned
I've been taking ecdysterones for years, they seemingly have no noticable effect at all (that you can feel) but since I have been taking them I have had less muscle pulls and no tears doing almost twice as many reps as I could do before I started taking it. So to try and answer your question... on a discussion page... you should probably ask your doctor and when he scratches his head and then tells you to stop taking leaf pills you should leave and realize something that you should already know, when it comes to this sort of thing you're entirely on your own. Opinions reign supreme, even the effect that it's had on me could be unexistent, the change could merely be a cohincidence, If I didn't get them for free i'd stop taking them. As for them being like actual steroids I would have to disagree, having injected pure testosterone and insulin as well as taking synthetic anabolic steroids I can say that you can notice your entire body change, the way you feel and think, the change in feeling is profound, profound enough to where you could never slip a steroid in somebodies drink and have them not know it, if you put some ecdysterones in somebodies drink they would never know it unless you told them. 71.10.17.28 18:02, 2 August 2006 (UTC
202.54.53.194 15:14, 6 October 2006 (UTC)K. Dhanabal M.Pharmacy., Research scholar IICB ( CSIR) India
Ancient litteratures from Sidha system of medicine indicates the 20E containing plants for the immuno modulation and for a long healthy life no more description of the muscle building is obtained from the ancient litterature. Until unless evidenced from the ancien litterature or research the use of 20E is unsafe for consumption.
[edit] Here's an American study on 20-hydroxyecdysone
Google reveals a FASEB conference poster from a group at Baylor University in Waco, Texas. A serious study on a small group of athletes. They found no beneficial effect from 20-hydroxyecdysone. Their funding came from a supplement company, but since they found no benefit, perhaps it's legit.
EdJohnston 05:35, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
Why didn't the scientists try to supplement with 20E and a high daily protien intake???
- You do realize that because it's from a supplement company, the study may be biased?
- I'd be guessing that the company that funded the study doesn't sell ecdysterone products, especially considering that there are only :around five or six ecdy products out there.
- The company's study might have been engineered to make a competitor's ecdy look bad and then make their product look good. Perhaps :something like, "Many have tried so-and-so ecdy product, but according to our study, it doesn't work, so try our brand new :micronized creatine!" You get the point.
- To add on to my statement above, the study might be an attack by MuscleTech on the Universal/Animal brands, which as-of-late have :been selling a product dubbed "Universal Animal M-Stak" which contains beta-ecdysterone, methoxyisoflavone, and a couple of other :ingredients. Encrypted Soldier 00:32, 25 May 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Rhaponticum Research
There is additional information on the Rhaponticum page on research with the whole herb (also known as Lecuza) which contains 20-E. The herb is an adaptogen which means that it is nontoxic in normal quantities, it generally benefits the HPA axis and the immune system and broadly benefits the body. It is considered a food-grade herb as opposed to a toxic herb. However it is important to realize that herbs are not the same as isolated constituents and the herb may be less toxic than any given constituent. Ksvaughan2 18:51, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
- Hello Ksvaughan2. I looked at the new material that you added to Rhaponticum carthamoides. It appears that you went to some trouble to establish the correct botanical name, which is good. Most of your sources for the beneficial effects of the plant extracts seem to come from Eastern European researchers, for instance Bulgaria. Also you use the term 'adaptogen' that probably is a familiar term for herbalists but won't impress standard scientists, or be used in applications to the US Food and Drug Administration. I'm afraid that the Wikipedia article adaptogen looks like deletion bait, but someone who goes there and reads it will probably not be seriously misled, since they won't expect to find lab science. Since nobody has added anything useful to the present article for some time, your addition to Talk here is welcome, though I'm not sure I am convinced of the scientific support for the new info you've added over at Rhaponticum carthamoides. EdJohnston 20:22, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Thought you might find this interesting
Found this on trulyhuge.com:
BETA ECDYSTERONE
This plant extract can increase performance and muscle mass.
By Bryan Haycock, M.SC., C.S.C.S.
Some of the greatest athletic achievements of the past century have come from the former Soviet Union and other countries of the Eastern Bloc. The training methods and practices of the government-run programs were closely kept secrets. Once the Cold War was over and the walls of communism began to fall, however, many of these secrets of the Eastern Bloc leaked out. Not only did we learn about their training practices but also of their experimentation and use of ergogenic aids to enhance sport performance. One of these secrets is the use of an extract from the Rhaponticum carthamoides plant. The active ingredient in Rhaponticum carthamoides is a compound called 20-hydroxyecdysone. The Russians classified it as an “adaptogen” because it enabled animals to resist the effects of physical stress. This may sound a lot like the way they classified ginseng, but don’t be too quick to judge: The effects of 20-hydroxyecdysone far exceed those of ordinary ginseng.
Twenty-hydroxyecdysone is a phytoecdysteroid, which is a type of phytosteroid. Phytosteroids are compounds that come from plants that have a steroidlike structure. Ecdysteroids were first discovered by a scientist named Peter Karlson in 1950. Scientists have since isolated more than 100 ecdysteroids, many of which occur not only in plants but also in insects. In fact, ecdysteroids are even found in viruses, as well as in parasitic worms and crustaceans (lobsters, crabs, etc.).
Ecdysterone and Athletic Performance
Research has been done to explore the effects of phytoecdysteroids in mammals. Considering the structural similarity between plant steroid molecules and animal steroid molecules, it was speculated that these ecdysteroids might have hormonal effects in animals. To explore the “myotropic” (muscle-promoting) effects of ecdysterone,
researchers tested two groups of animals, one using
ecdysterone and the other using Russian dianabol (Dbol). It was shown that “ecdysterone, possessing a wider spectrum of the anabolic action on the contractile proteins of the skeletal muscles, exerts a more pronounced influence on physical endurance” than dianabol. Now, that is a strong statement! Not only did the ecdysterone have a more pronounced effect on muscle performance, it also increased protein synthesis in a variety of slow- and fast-twitch fibers, whereas the dianabol only induced protein synthesis in slow-twitch fibers.
After these promising results in animals, human trials were soon to follow. A study using 117 speed skaters showed that supplementation with ecdysterone increased total work capacity, VO2 max and body weight. Another study involving 112 athletes demonstrated that within five days of taking ecdysterone, a reduction in over- training symptoms, such as fatigue, apathy and declining performance, was reported in approximately 90% of the athletes taking the supplement.
Ecdysterone and Muscle Growth
I’m sure many of you are just as interested, if not more so, in muscle growth as you are in performance. Ecdysterone has also been shown to be a powerful anabolic in muscle tissue. In a study done at the Czech Academy of Sciences, quail were fed either the seeds of Leuzea carthamoides (known
to contain ecdysterone) or a pure extract of ecdysterone
from the seeds. They were able to show a dose response to the anabolic activity of ecdysterone, resulting in a 115% increase in body mass of the birds fed the pure extract. These same anabolic effects have also been documented in mice and rats.
Of course, no one can expect you to believe that animal research guarantees that a supplement will work for you and me. Fortunately, human research with ecdysterone is also promising. In a study published in Scientific Sports Bulletin, researchers were able to show significant effects of ecdy-sterone on muscle mass and fat loss when combined with protein. Seventy-eight highly trained athletes were given either placebo, protein or ecdysterone with protein. The c ombination of ecdysterone and protein resulted in up to a 13% reduction in body fat and a 6% to 7% increase in muscle tissue. This was within a period of only 10 days. Later, researchers were able to show significant anabolic and fat-loss effects of ecdysterone during three weeks of training.
What makes ecdysterone even more attractive is that it does not work through the endocrine (hormone) system. In other words, although it is anabolic like testosterone, it does not affect testosterone levels or work through testosterone receptors. This was both interesting and perplexing to early Russian scientists. Researcher V.N. Syrov of the Academy of Sciences of the Republic of Uzbekistan, who was involved in many of the ecdysterone studies, was able to show that ecdysterone does not increase the level of mRNA or blueprints for protein as testosterone does, but instead increases the rate of ribosomal activity. Ribosomes are cellular proteins that actually hook amino acids together to form new proteins. This has the effect of enabling the muscle cell to “work faster” to put amino acids together into protein chains.In addition to increasing performance and muscle mass, phytoecdysteroids have been shown to have beneficial effects on insulin sensitivity, arrhythmias and red blood-cell count. Clearly, phytoecdysteroids have tremendous potential as a dietary supplement.
More Potent Than Ever Before
There was a time when extracts of ecdysterone were very weak, containing only about 10 to 12 mg of active ingredient per capsule. Today, the extracts have increased in potency up to 97% ecdysterone. This makes a tremendous difference in the effectiveness of phytoecdysteroids. To take advantage of this greater ability to synthesize proteins, an athlete must consume a high-protein diet and train intensely with heavy
weights at the gym. This will serve two purposes: The high
protein diet will ensure that there are plenty of amino acids available for the busy ribosomes, and the heavy training will guarantee that there are blueprints in the form of mRNA floating around for the ribosomes to work from.
Ecdysterone is a valuable addition to the supplement market. There are more sports-nutrition options with real potential today than at any other time in history, so it’s an exciting time to be an athlete. With the right diet and training program, high-potency ecdysterone will take your muscle growth to a new level.
Get the Most From Your Ecdysterone
Eat adequate protein. Try to get at least 1 gm of protein per lb of body weight per day while using ecdysterone supplements. Never miss your post-workout protein drink. This is the time when protein is used most extensively for muscle protein synthesis. Keep your weight loads heavy. Use rep ranges of 6 to 8 while supplementing with ecdysterone. This will ensure that the boost in protein synthesis leads to real increases in muscle size and strength. Consume adequate calories. Eat at least 12 cal per lb of body weight each day.
.~.~.~.~.
The only thing I see here is that if you consume 1 gm of protein per lb of body weight and consume enough calories for muscle growth, you can definitely expect putting on massive pounds, unless you're already quite advanced.
- The above extremely lengthy comment, which sounds like advertising, I think ought to be deleted per WP:REFACTOR, because it does not propose any actual changes to the present article. If no-one responds to my question here, I'll assume there is consensus to remove it. EdJohnston 20:25, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
Sorry, I didn't want to make an advertisement out of this.
However, I thought that the above contained decent information about yet another study done with the ecdysteroid.
It is however, off of a site trying to sell it as the next greatest thing in bodybuilding and powerlifting which isn't tested for. So, obviously, take it with a grain of salt.
As I stated above though, it does contain a study which might be useful for sourcing/continuing the debate. However the study is old, probably wasn't a double-blind, and might've been rigged to be pro-ecdysterone (we can't really tell until new long-term government-funded double blind studies come out). —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Encrypted Soldier (talk • contribs). 3 June 2007
[edit] Reply to User:Encrypted Soldier
It's good somebody is trying to watch for new information. However, additional studies from eastern Europe are unlikely to be very convincing on this question. Those of us who aren't fluent in those languages can't read them, and it's hard to judge the scientific level. Any hormonal treatment is likely to have a multitude of effects, so treatment safety is a concern, and is unlikely to be covered well in a study of a handful of subjects. The eastern European studies are presumably small, because large studies are expensive. So I would vote that we wait for new large studies by reputable scientists published in Western languages before updating the article. EdJohnston 03:13, 4 June 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Two strange claims in lead section
1. "It has been suggested as a disruptor to avian influenza which can be transmitted through such vectors." What vectors...? I suppose blood-feeding insects like mosquitos could transmit bird viruses, but even if they do I can't see how 20E could be usefully applied to prevent this. Production costs and metabolic instability mean that it isn't commercially feasible to use 20E as an insecticide in agriculture, veterinary science or medicine. The claim doesn't seem to be developed later in the article or to be referenced, so I think it should be demoted or deleted.
2. "It acts through a heterodimeric receptor comprising the ecdysone receptor and the ultraspiracle proteins (USP) to cause a positive nitrogen balance in the body". No problems with any of that except for the last 6 words. In arthropds 20E causes moulting and metamorphosis, which is a little more dramatic than just affecting the nitrogen balance. If this claim refers to mammalian physiology, then 20E won't be acting through the EcR:USP heterodimer because mammals don't have these proteins. If - despite this - the claim about nitrogen balance is in respect of mammals, then I suspect it's controversial and (at the very least) should be demoted from the lead section to the relevant subsection. The true importance of 20E to biology is its pivotal role in arthropod development rather than its possible effects on mammals, and the lead section should reflect that.
If there's support (or no opposition) to these suggestions in a reasonable timeframe, then I'll make the changes.
LloydGraham (talk) 03:43, 22 January 2008 (UTC)
OK, I've revised the lead section to give what I hope is a more balanced summary - I've done my best to keep it general and open-minded.
LloydGraham (talk) 04:29, 25 January 2008 (UTC)
