Talk:1st Cavalry Army (Soviet Union)

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[edit] 1st Cavalry Army or 1st Horse Army?

I think it important that the unit was the Konarmiya (Pervaya Konnaya Armiya) and not the Kavarmiya.

Each army was designated # Konnaya Armiya, while each (Red) division was designated # Kavaleriiskaya Diviziya (some but not other White divisions were # Konnaya Diviziya) so the Russian designations did distinguish between "Horse" units and "Cavalry" units. 72.66.40.17 (talk) —Preceding comment was added at 23:21, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

Mr 72.66.40.17 has a point. Mrg3105, should we change the name of this page to 1st Horse Army? Secondly, whatever the practice with later Soviet formations, was this army refered to usually as 'First' or '1st'? What do the various documents say? Buckshot06 (talk) 04:25, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

To what? 1st Horsed Army? 1st Horse Army? 1st Mounted Army? This is besides the fact that most of its engagements were fought as dismounted infantry! The simple truth is that there were no Cavalry Armies in the Imperial Army with all cavalry divisions being attached to field Armies. Speculatively I would say that had there been such formations in the Imperial Army, they would have been Cavalry and not Horse, because only two units had the name Horse in Imperial Army and that was Life-Guard Horse Grenadier and Life-Guard Horse regiments (both heavy cavalry!). The last use of Horse in line cavalry went out with the Horse Yegers, and the only other units that had konno applied to them were the so called "tuzemniye" or native regiments, Dagestani, Chechen, Cherkess, etc. Since the Konarmiya was, or purported to be cavalry, or at least so it says in their song "Мы красная кавалерия" (We are the Red Cavalry) (however other names of the song are "Мы красная кавалеристы" (We, Red cavalrymen) and "Марш Буденного" (Budenny march), but earlier was known as "Марш красных конников" (March of the Red horsemen)!) I'd stick with the later version approved by Budenny ;o) and continue with the 1st Cavalry Army--mrg3105 (comms) ♠♥♦♣ 05:32, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

I'm not sure what you are trying to argue here; the designation was Pervaya Konnaya Armiya.

Now there are two key guidelines in Wikipedia article titles: (1) to use common names instead of obscure ones and (2) to use clear language instead of unclear language. That leads to the following questions:

• What is the most common English-language name for the Konarmiya?
• What name best translates the Russian name?
• What name best reflects the distinctions within Russian naming?
• What name best describes the army?

I don't see why the term "horse army" suggests mounted combat and the term "cavalry army" suggests dismounted combat. I'd expect some readers to make the same assumptions with either title, but other readers to assume mounted long-distance movement, horse artillery, and so on, but not mounted combat with either title. 72.66.53.107 (talk) 04:27, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

Whichever title best fits these criteria, we should have redirects from Konarmiya and from the other title. 72.66.53.107 (talk) 04:31, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

The most common name is 1st Cavalry Army. In this case the best translation from Russian into English would be nonsensical. It used sabres, therefore it was cavalry unlike these blokes, although they still charged. Cavalry best describes it; the troops carried sabres and were armed with cavalry carbines. All horse armies throughout history everywhere were mounted on horses! Cavalry Army does not suggest dismounted combat, but mounted mode of movement...to the envy of PBI. Most cavalry were capable of dismounted combat though. I can provide you with an example of Austrian cuirassiers "charging" a village on foot if you like. How many English readers do you think are likely to search for Konarmiya to warrant a redirect? However, if you feel so inclined....--mrg3105 (comms) ♠♥♦♣ 06:14, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

"The most common name is 1st Cavalry Army" - news to me. I had thought I had found "1st Horse Army" and "Konarmiya" more common but my memory may be off. I don't understand your interpretation of the meanings of "horse" troops vs. "cavalry" troops. "Horse" units can fight mounted, but often fight dismounted, the same as 20th century "cavalry" units. 72.66.53.107 (talk) 05:22, 9 April 2008 (UTC)