Talk:1st Armoured Division (Australia)

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[edit] 1st Armoured Division disbandment

As part of my expansion of the Divisional history, I've restored my statement that the Division was disbanded in September 1943 with 1st Armoured Brigade surviving as an independant brigade. As 1st Armoured Brigade was a pre-existing unit prior to September 1943 it is not correct to state that the division was 'downsized to a brigade group'. Rather, most of the Division's units (including the Divisional HQ) were disbanded with the surviving units coming under the command of 1st Armoured Brigade. My source for this is Australian Armour. A History of the Royal Australian Armoured Corps 1927-1972 by Major General R.N. Hopkins (see page 129). --Nick Dowling 05:41, 3 December 2005 (UTC)

Nick, I guess it's a question of interpretation, as was my (now deleted) statement that the division was never fully-formed. A brigade group (a concept which was used widely by Commonwealth armies in WW2) is not a brigade; it is more accurately defined as a unit with the fighting strength of a brigade but all the other attributes (support staff, logistics, etc) of a division. Likewise I'm not sure that a "division" with only two brigades could be described as full-formed, but as I say it's a matter of opinion and I'm not that bothered about it. Grant65 | Talk 03:38, 4 December 2005 (UTC)

Grant, British pattern armoured divisions like the 1st Armoured only had 2 Brigades + supporting elements. Hopkins, who was a key player in the formation and design of the division, states that it was at full strength by early 1943. The 2nd and 3rd Armoured Divisions never reached their full strength though. --Nick Dowling 09:57, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

Fair enough, I didn't know that. Grant65 | Talk 11:36, 5 December 2005 (UTC)