Talk:1986 Berlin discotheque bombing

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This page, linked from current events, appears neither to be neutral (the article spends much more time talking about the revenge attack rather than describing) nor up-to-date - the information on current events can't be found here. Anyone know enough to do an update? Pcb21| Pete 14:49, 12 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Contents 1 Noam Chomsky? 2 the opening links 3 100 people dead after US airstrikes in Libya 4 Some Sources to Consider... 5 Inappropriate category 6 Contacts with East Berlin

[edit] Noam Chomsky?

I find it interesting that one of the links regarding the supposed CIA/Mossad involvement is a Noam Chomsky piece. The man has been widely discredited as a complete loon --- except in the Left. Sad that people will actually believe his blathering.

Noam Chomsky is a widely known, respected scientist and political activist. His views, opinions and analysis are highly appreciated by a huge number of people around the globe. He has given talks and lectures on many major universities and world conferences. However, if he was not, his writings are still backed up by an overwhelming amount of sources, being his writings themselves an useful source of information for any research on recent historical and political events. And next time, perhaps you can sign so we can check your sources.--1052 14:34, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)

You can have your opinions about Chomsky, but keep in mind that most of his critics don't attack or discredit the facts he presents, only his character and viewpoint. Can you site any sources for him being "widely discredited"? Raharu00 16:12, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] the opening links

as i said in my edit summary i don't think they're appropriate. this article is to summarize the event, not to cite conspiracy and Noam Chomsky op-ed pieces. i may be willing to include the "CIA-Mossad" (though really, how cliche can you get) Berlin deal at the bottom, but it should first be analyzed (if it's possible -- i'm guessing it's pretty damned obscure) to see if it has any verifiable merit oustide of "this guy said this." J. Parker Stone 22:17, 11 July 2005 (UTC)

[edit] 100 people dead after US airstrikes in Libya

The BBC reported 100 deaths [1]

What is your source for only 15 deaths? Raharu00 17:00, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Some Sources to Consider...

At the risk of being "controversial," the article does seem to favor both the Reagan Admin. & the State Department's official line on the matter of the bombing despite a significant amount of material that suggests otherwise.

For example, no conclusive evidence had been given by US officials prior to the bombing by their own admission. As Gerald M. Boyd noted ("U.S. Sees Methods Of Libya In Attack," New York Times, April 6, 1986, p. 1): "Administration counterterrorism officials said there was 'strong circumstantial evidence' linking Libya to the bombing," (my italics) and "a 'consensus' within the Administration that the nightclub attack was part of a pattern of activity directed against Americans and American installations in which Colonel Qaddafi has been responsible."

Furthermore, the Associated Press on April 14th 1986, a mere half-hour before the US attacks on Libya began, published the following: "[T]he Allied military command [in West Berlin] reported no developments in the investigation of the disco bombing...U.S. and West German officials have said Libya -- possibly through its embassy in Communist-ruled East Berlin -- is suspected of involvement in the bombing of the La Belle night-club." Again, no evidence was offered at the time by either U.S. or German investigators, although Larry Speakes, the Reagan administration's spokesman, continued to assert the next day that US intelligence was "able to, in the last several days...tie Qaddafi in very directly to the Berlin disco bombing which resulted in the death of an American citizen" (Gerald M. Boyd, "Genesis of a Decision: How the President Approved Retaliatory Strikes," New York Times, April 15, 1986, p. A11)

In fact, a year after the US attack, the head of the West German investigation committee, Manfred Ganschow, maintained that no evidence had been found to support the Libyan connection. He said, "I have no more evidence that Libya was connected to the bombing than I had when you first called me two days after the act. Which is none" (Andrew Cockburn, "Sixty Seconds Over Tripoli," Playboy, May 1987, pp. 130f). Furthermore, then Chancellor of Germany Helmut Kohl had been cited by US officials as being in support of the Libyan assault when, in fact, he was not: "A senior adviser to the Chancellor [of West Germany] said Mr. Kohl was "furious" when he read that Reagan administration officials had described him as willing to condone military action against Libya in private while publicly opposing such a step. "He said nothing like this," the adviser insisted. . . . [Italian Prime Minister Bettino] Craxi's aides, too, were shocked to hear him described by Washington officials as having privately endorsed the American raid" (James M. Markham, "Libya Raids: Behind Allies' Reactions," New York Times, April 25, 1986, p. A6).

Of particular interest may be Bill Schaap's "The Endless Campaign: Disinforming the World on Libya," Covert Action Information Bulletin, No. 30, Summer 1988, pp. 70-71, in which he says: "Not only was there no evidence of Libyan involvement, there was considerable evidence to the contrary. Every Western European government except Mrs. Thatcher's -- which would support President Reagan if he said the sun rose in the west -- expressed skepticism, as did the West Berlin police authorities in charge of the investigation. In fact, U.S. Ambassador Burt, Secretary of State Shultz, and Secretary of Defense Weinberger all lied to bolster the story that the U.S. had clear proof of Libyan involvement. They said that the U.S. evidence -- intercepts of coded messages between Libyan People's Bureaus -- was so compelling that prior to the bombing U.S. military police in West Berlin had been put on the alert and had been clearing bars of customers that evening. Weinberger went so far as to say that the M.P.s were just fifteen minutes late to save the people at the LaBelle discotheque. In fact, this was a complete fabrication. As the Deputy Chief of West Berlin's military police told Bower, there was no alert, no one was going around clearing bars, and it would not have made any sense in the first place, since the intercepts made no mention of specific targets."

Rather, the US attack on Libya met with widespread global resistance: "Spain's major newspaper, the independent El Pais, condemned the raid, stating: 'The military action of the United States is not only an offense against international law and a grave threat to peace in the Mediterranean, but a mockery of its European allies, who did not find motives for economic sanctions against Libya in a meeting Monday, despite being previously and unsuccessfully pressured to adopt sanctions.'"

"The conservative South China Morning Post in Hong Kong wrote that "President Reagan's cure for the 'mad dog of the Middle East' may prove more lethal than the disease," and his action "may also have lit the fuse to a wider conflagration in the Middle East." In Mexico City, El Universal wrote that the U.S. "has no right to set itself up as the defender of world freedom," urging recourse to legal means through the United Nations." (Noam Chomsky, Pirates and Emperors: International Terrorism in the Real World, Boston: South End, 1991, pp. 131-132)

TO THE INDIVIDUAL WHO FEELS THAT CHOMSKY IS NOT A CREDIBLE SOURCE, I DEFER TO A 2001 SURVEY CONDUCTED BY THE INSTITUTE FOR SCIENTIFIC INFORMATION WHICH IDENTIFIES ONLY MARX, LENIN, SHAKESPEARE, ARISTOTLE, THE BIBLE, PLATO, AND FREUD AS BEING MORE WIDELY QUOTED IN ACADEMIC JOURNALS THAN CHOMSKY, WHICH SUGGESTS TO ME THAT HE IS NOT SO "WIDELY DISCREDITED" AMONGST SCHOLARS AS SOME HAVE SUGGESTED.

To continue, there have been alternative theories suggested for the Berlin bombing (which, I feel, should at least be mentioned in the article). Most notable of them was the Syrian/Jordanian connection: (1) Robert J. McCartney, "Clues Hint Syrian Link In '86 Berlin Bombing," Washington Post, January 11, 1988, p. A13 (2) James M. Markham, "Suspect Reportedly Asserts Syria Directed Bombing At A Berlin Club," New York Times, May 7, 1986, p. A1 (3) Roberto Suro, "New Data Linked to Terror Plots," New York Times, July 3, 1986, p. B11.

Also, as a point of interest, while the German judge did, in fact, rule in the favor of the US's summary verdict, he did criticize both the US and German intelligence for their failures at presenting viable "intelligence" to support the Libyan claim (Steven Erlanger, "4 Guilty in Fatal 1986 Berlin Disco Bombing Linked to Libya," New York Times, November 14, 2001, p. A7).

I hope these may be prove useful to future amendations. (Ajm323 01:55, 27 February 2007 (UTC))

[edit] Inappropriate category

The category Category:Palestinian terrorist incidents in Europe is inappropriate for two reasons. First Abu Nidal, while Palestinian, is not connected or motivated by the Palestinian national struggle. He is a freelance terrorist and it is improper to associate his acts with Palestinians in general. Second, the connection between this attack and Abu Nidal appears quite tenuous itself. I am removing the category from the article. --Abnn 04:19, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Contacts with East Berlin

US evidence against Libya for this 1986 incident (for which the US took revenge by means of Operation El Dorado Canyon) is based mainly upon alleged intercepts of communications between Tripoli and its embassy in East Berlin. What is generally under-reported is the link between the Lockerbie bombing "co-conspirator" Edwin Bollier's Radio North Sea International#Destination Libya and Alternative theories of the bombing of Pan Am Flight 103. Bollier was alleged to have been sending coded messages to the GDR early in the 1970s.

It was reported in 2004 that Libya took revenge for the April 1986 US bombing of Tripoli and Benghazi by hijacking Pan Am Flight 73 in September 1986. However, Libya's role in the 1988 Lockerbie bombing has never been fully accepted. Now that the Libyan convicted of the Lockerbie bombing has been granted leave to appeal (for a second time) against his conviction, we may have to overhaul the received wisdom concerning the La Belle discotheque bombing. [2]Phase4 21:40, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

I'm sure this is useful information for the Pan Am 103 case. But where and how, precisely, does this affect LaBelle? Your Guardian source mentions nothing at all about any possible connection and, frankly, neither do you. I'm all for overhauling received wisdom, but just because one court case may be flawed doesn't imply that all court cases are. Where ist the overlap? Bollier sending coded messages into the GDR 15 years before this case? Something else? Please elaborate. Azate 10:09, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

Perhaps I was a bit premature in raising this issue: let's see how the Lockerbie appeal goes. If it turns out that Libya was not responsible, then there are likely to be repercussions upon a number of other incidents that were blamed on Libya, including the La Belle bombing.Phase4 12:52, 6 July 2007 (UTC)