Talk:1983 Beirut barracks bombing

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Contents

[edit] Is this really a terrorist incident?

The Definitions of terrorism page says the following about terrorism: " Generally speaking a definition of terrorism should examine each of the four major criteria, which are as follows:

Target. It is commonly held that the distinctive nature of terrorism lies in its deliberate and specific selection of civilians (or military personnel not on active combat duty) as targets. Furthermore, an act is more likely to be considered terrorism if it targets a general populace than if it purposefully targets a specific individual or group. See also noncombatant and collateral damage. This criterion excludes conventional warfare in accordance with the laws of war, attacks on military targets during time of war, and guerilla warfare and revolution. "

Does anyone really believe that the attack on the Beirut barracks meets this definition? I don't think it does, so this incident should not be classified as "terrorist incident".—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 62.255.32.13 (talk • contribs) 21:57, 26 January 2005.

I agree, I don't think this was a "terrorist" attack per se. It was a terrorist attack insofar as it was an attack, allegedly, committed by a group that is often thought of as being a terrorist organization, but this is definitely the less accurate, and more misleading, of the two ways to characterize it. I say change it.--Clngre 21:59, May 8, 2005 (UTC)
Attacking a military target is generally not considered as a terrorist action but in this cas the US was part of a multinational force that aimed to restaure peace and was not a party of the war. The attack had a political meaning. Most important, these attacks were done by the islamic jihad (probably an alias for Hezbollah, though there's no proof on this) who deliberately targetted civilians in other actions and thus could be labelled as a terrorist movement. Finally , it suicide car bomber, which is generally an operatory mode associated to terrorism.--equitor 12:28, 10 May 2005 (UTC)
The US supported Israel financially, and Israel attacked Lebanon. Therefore, the US could be said to have been a party of the war. Funkynusayri (talk) 16:50, 1 April 2008 (UTC)
And France? They have not been known for their pro-Israeli policies. --BoogaLouie (talk) 17:30, 1 April 2008 (UTC)
Well, now I'm not quoting anything official, but to a Lebanese Muslim, France would be considered pro-Maronite (Maronites were supported by Israel during the war), since Lebanon was created by the French as a Maronite state in the first place, and they have therefore always been favoured by the French. France occupied Lebanon for many years, so they can't exactly be labeled as neutral. Funkynusayri (talk) 17:36, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] 2006

A former defense secretary for Ronald Reagan says he implored the president to put Marines serving in Beirut in a safer position before terrorists attacked them in 1983, killing 241 servicemen.

"I was not persuasive enough to persuade the president that the Marines were there on an impossible mission," Caspar Weinberger says in an oral history project capturing the views of former Reagan administration officials.

Weinberger said one of his greatest regrets was in failing to overcome the arguments that "Marines don't cut and run", and 'We can't leave because we're there'" before the devastating suicide attack on the lightly armed force.

"They had no mission but to sit at the airport, which is just like sitting in a bull's-eye," Weinberger said. "I begged the president at least to pull them back and put them back on their transports as a more defensible position.".

The Joint Chiefs begged Reagan to house those men on ships, where they'd be safe, but Reagan the Idiot wanted the "symbolism" of having them in town where trucks could reach them. This is how Al Qaeda first learned that America will cut and run after you kill a bunch of soldiers. Reagan taught them that.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 132.241.245.49 (talk • contribs) 23:19, 1 February 2006.


[edit] Deadliest attack?

The attack remains the deadliest post-World War II attack on Americans overseas.

Can this be true? Wasn't there even a single incident during the Korean War, Vietnam Conflict, Gulf War, Gulf War II, African Embassy Bombings, Kosovo, attacks by Israel and Bin-Laden, or during an airplane bombing that exceeded 241 deaths + 60 injuries?

Lockerbie killed 270, but only 189 were Americans. The Tết Offensive supposedly killed 4,324 allied forces (I dunno how many were Americans, but that wasn't exactly a single attack, anyway, no?), The embassy bombings number 220+6000 (how do deaths vs. injuries account?)

- Eric 13:42, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

The sentence is true as far as I can tell. The only gray areas would be the Korean War and Vietnam War, as I can't find out what the deadliest attacks were in those wars. But I'm absolutely sure no terrorist or enemy attack has even come close to inflicting 241 deaths in the past 30 or so years. PBP 15:11, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] "Many Believe"

I noticed the use of that phrase in the article when asserting Hezbollah was responsible. I have no doubt that many do believe Hezbollah was responsible, but I was wondering if that could be better cited? Isn't "many believe", like "some say", an example of uncited writing? Just a thought.The Shrike 23:31, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

There seem to be several POV problems in this entry, I'd say to the point that it needs a cleanup tag. Manys (talk) 21:21, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] minor edit

Just cleaned up some spelling errors and re-established links in the following section:

In his book "By Way of Deception : The Making and Unmaking of a Mossad Officer, Victor Ostrovsky claims that Mossad knew in advance of the attack, but did not warn the United States [6].There have been claims that Israel wanted US and French troops to leave Lebanon so it could freely operate in Lebanon without restriction. The removal of US and French tropps allowed the Israelis to support the Phalangists in their massacre of the Palestinians in the Shantilla and Sabra camps [2]-- cheers Guss 07:53, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

In May 2003 U.S. District Judge Royce C. Lamberth said Friday the suicide truck bombing was carried out by the terrorist group Hezbollah with the approval and funding of senior Iranian officials.

Dan I am not a member but do your homework! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.181.53.70 (talk) 19:43, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Provocation for Bombing

I am surprised that no one added the provocation for Hezzbollah's barracks bombing? The bombing was in response to the US Navy firing on Hezzbollah's targets, despite the ship commander's objections. This was just televised and I didn't think to write it down, so I don't have a source yet. Once I do I will post it here. MPA 10:59pm, August 14, 2006

[edit] Iranian Involvement

Until 19 September 2006 this article contained the sentence "In retaliation for the attacks, France launched an air strike in the Beqaa Valley against Iranian Revolutionary Guard positions" under the "Response" section.

There is no evidence that the Iranian Revolutionary Guard had any presence in Lebabon at the time. To claim that the French attacked IRG position in the Beqaa is incorrect and misleading.

With respect to the involvement of Iran, the New York Times reported on 29 October 1983: "Reagan Administration now assumes Iranian Govt played key role in bombing of US and French installations in Beirut; Donald H Rumsfeld or Alfred L Atherton Jr reportedly may be named special envoy to region; US reportedly may ask Lebanon to close Iranian Embassy, apparent nerve center for attack, and may stage commando raid against Baalbek area held by Shiites; illustration". (NYT 29 October 1983 "Reagan Adm now assumes Iranian Govt played key role in bombing")

On 24 October The New York Times reported: "When pressed by reporters about American reports linking the attacks with Iranian groups, the Prime Minister said, 'We don't have information on this point.'" (NYT 24 October 1983 "France has no plans to pull out troops")

The assertion that France bombed IRG positions strongly implied that Iran had a military personnel presence in Lebanon at the time, which is incorrect. Such assertions should not be made without supporting refences. I have removed the assertion from this article. --Richard Scrivener, Centre for Arab & Islamic Studies, Australian National University 07:15, 19 September 2006 (UTC)


[edit] "I've ordered the use of naval gunfire."- Reagan, Sept.11,1983

diary entries: President Reagan, Sept,11,1983. source: Reagan, Ronald, An American Life: The Autobiography, New York: Simon & Shuster, 1990, p. 446.

I have found a good source in regard to the lead up of US Navy involvements in Lebanon : Lebanon 1982-1984 by John H. Kelly

("John H. Kelly is managing director of International Equity Partners, Washington, D.C. He served as U.S. Ambassador to Lebanon from 1986 to 1988, Assistant Secretary of State for the Near East and South Asia from 1989 to 1991, and U.S. Ambassador to Finland from 1991 to 1994.")

http://www.rand.org/pubs/conf_proceedings/CF129/CF-129.chapter6.html

Lebanon 1982-1984 by John H. Kelly : In the weeks following the attack on Marines at Beirut International Airport, U.S. ships of the Sixth Fleet responded with naval gunfire. Two more Marines were killed on September 6. Druze and Palestinian militia forces engaged in intense fighting against Christian forces over areas in the Shuf mountains evacuated by withdrawing Israeli forces. Shultz had wanted the Israelis to remain in the Shuf so as not to reward Syrian intransigence in refusing to accept the May 17 agreement.[40]

As the fighting between Lebanese Armed Forces and the militia groups intensified, McFarlane and his team at the American ambassador's residence came under fire from the battle lines five kilometers away. McFarlane sent a flash cable to Washington stating that "there is a serious threat of a decisive military defeat which could involve the fall of the Government of Lebanon within twenty-four hours." McFarlane urged that the rules of engagement for U.S. forces be modified "to allow our forces to fire in support of the Lebanese Army."[41] Despite Weinberger's opposition (he described the message as "McFarlane's `sky is falling' cable")[42] President Reagan approved the recommendation. The Americans began to fire in support of the Lebanese Army.

Some of the naval gunfire was directed at Druze emplacements. This was widely and correctly viewed in Lebanon as U.S. intervention on the side of the Christians and the government. In mid-September the battleship New Jersey was dispatched to Lebanese waters to bring its sixteen-inch guns into play.

With the death of the two Marines on August 29, a furor arose in the American Congress as to whether or not the War Powers Resolution should be invoked to limit the duration of the Marine deployment in Lebanon. Some members sought a six-month limit. When it became clear that some limiting legislation would pass, the administration held out for and won an eighteen-month authorization. Secretary Shultz defended the U.S. contribution to the MNF in hearings before the Foreign Relations Committees of both houses of Congress. He justified the presence as "to help insure the Lebanese Government's sovereignty and authority . . . to assure the safety of the people in the area and to end the violence. . . . " Shultz described U.S. intervention in the Shuf battles as due to concern "that key strategic positions in the vicinity of Beirut, which are vital to the safety of our Marines, of other American military and diplomatic personnel, and to the security of Beirut, have recently come under attack." [43]

The testimony by Shultz did not square with what was discussed in private, as we now know. President Reagan wrote the truth in his diary on September 11 1983:

"N. S. C. (National Security Council) is meeting . . . on Lebanon re a new cable from Bud McFarlane. Troops obviously PLO and Syrian have launched a new attack against the Lebanese Army. Our problem is do we expand our mission to aid the Lebanese Army with artillery and air support? This could be seen as putting us in the war."

"I've ordered the use of naval gunfire. My reasoning is that this can be explained as protection of our Marines hoping it might signal the Syrians to pull back."

Reagan wrote again in his diary on September 19,1983 on how to describe the Marines' role:

"N.S.C.: Our Navy guns turned loose in support of the Lebanese Army fighting to hold a position on a hill overlooking our Marines at the Beirut airport. This still comes under the head of defense."

In his congressional testimony Shultz went on to say of the Marines: "They are an important deterrent, a symbol of the international backing behind the legitimate Government of Lebanon, and an important weight in the scales. To remove the Marines would put both the Government, and what we are trying to achieve, in jeopardy." In response to a question at the hearing, Shultz replied: " . . . when America sends its forces to perform a legitimate mission . . . and then the minute some trouble arises we turn tail and beat it, I think that sends a gigantic message around the world . . . "[46]

So the Marines were a "deterrent," a "symbol," and an "important weight." They were now involved in sporadic combat. U.S. Naval forces were shelling targets up to ten kilometers away from the Marines because the targets were "key strategic positions" in the words of Shultz. That was a misleading explanation. No matter how it was described in Washington, U.S. military forces in Lebanon had begun to use their fire in support of Lebanese government forces as the Reagan diary entries show. As Richard Haass wrote in his recent book on military intervention, "The Marines and the MNF as a whole had come to be perceived as a hand-maiden of Lebanon's Christian-dominated government. . . . As a result, the MNF became a de facto participant in Lebanon's internecine struggles."[47] continued...

Lebanon 1982-1984 by John H. Kelly : http://www.rand.org/pubs/conf_proceedings/CF129/CF-129.chapter6.html

I added the external link above to main page Guss 09:40, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

In the same vein, I added an internal link to Souk_El_Gharb#Battle_of_Souk_El_Gharb_of_September_1983Godspeed John Glenn! Will 15:33, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] largest non-nuclear explosion DELIBERATELY detonated up to that time

i had previously made that edit, blindly copying the finding of fact of the federal district court judge. what do these judges know anyway? it was correctly pointed out that it was not, that indeed there is even a wiki page on large explosions. the largest ever was the halifax, nova scotia harbour munitions explosion world war i. What is true though, it that the barracks bombing was the largest, heretofore, deliberately set. Godspeed John Glenn! Will 15:21, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Re: "largest non-nuclear explosion DELIBERATELY detonated up to that time"

See article: Heligoland#History

I hate to say this but... the "single largest deliberate non-nuclear detonation" occured in Germany. On April 18 1947 British forces attempted to level the German island of Heligoland (also known as Helgoland) using no less than four thousand tons (by conservative estimates) or 6,800 tons (more liberal estimate) of convensional explosives. The detonation re-shaped the island and even made an entry in the Guiness Book of Records. See List of the largest artificial non-nuclear explosions#1901–2000 Mkhkoh 06:22, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

That was the finding of the U.S. district court judge in a U.S. lawsuit. But he also found Hezbollah set off the detonation. And that is not entirely proven. So, he could've been mistaken about the detonation too. if the Helgoland detonation exceeds the tonnage of the Barracks, then make the appropriate edit. I have no problem with. Godspeed John Glenn! Will 09:47, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

The attack on Heligoland used more tonnage, but it was from thousands of seperate explosive devices exploding at different times in different places. The Barrack attack was one bomb, one explosion, so you cannot compare the two attacks. -DM

Actually, the Helgoland detonation made the entry as "the biggest non-nuclear single detonation in history" [1] but i do agree with you in that it wasn't sourced from a single explosive. The article provides proper citation regarding the district court's findings on the issue-- i believe it is relevant and informative and should be kept as is. Mkhkoh 00:50, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

No matter how you parse it, the judge's statement is incorrect. The Beirut bombing involved about 6 tons of high explosive. On May 7th, 1945, in order to calibrate instruments for the upcoming Trinity fission bomb test, 108 tons of a TNT/RDX mixture were detonated [2] 800 yards from where the Trinity test was eventually fired. This was a single, deliberate non-nuclear detonation, of about eighteen times the quantity of high explosives as in the Beirut bombing. John Walker (fourmilab.ch) (talk) 21:34, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Semi-protection please

Repeated anonymous vandalisms:

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=1983_Beirut_barracks_bombing&oldid=137289660 - good version. --HanzoHattori 18:41, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Broken citation

I found that the citation <ref name="wp"> is broken. There is no first instance of this. I'd appreciate help in locating the citation. 21:44, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

I found it looking through the history - from the Washington Post. — ERcheck (talk) 21:50, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] French Barracks

Anyone know where the French barracks was located? I understand it may have been about 4km away... Socrates2008 02:46, 23 October 2007 (UTC)