Talk:1973 National Archives Fire

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Contents 1 Sources 2 Navy/USMC records in the fire 2.1 Answer to Concerns 3 Kennedy pamphlet 3.1 Section Moved

[edit] Sources

This page needs references of sources. Especially for the list conspiracy theories. If no sources are available, they should be removed Armycaptain 18:15, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

The external link at the bottom of the page is the primary link to the source for the article. Conspiracy theories (as far as I know) are based on various memos and letters publshed from NPRC. A "citation needed" tag would probably be better than removing the entire section. -Husnock 18:36, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

I added more sources today. They can all be verified by calling 314-801-0800 and talking to NPRC Customer Service. -Husnock 05:43, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Navy/USMC records in the fire

NPRC Customer service doesn't verify the suggested loss of records. Specifically they indicate that no Marine, Navy or Coast Guard records are affected in the fire. What are YOUR sources?

Mine are http://www.archives.gov/st-louis/military-personnel/fire-1973.html and

Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2006 15:38:56 -0400 From: MPR Assistance <MPR.Assistance@nara.gov> Subject: Re: 1973 Fire (fwd)

Thank you for contacting the National Personnel Records Center. The Privacy Act requires a written release authorization before we can provide copies of the requested document(s). We need complete information to identify and locate the service record: complete name of veteran, branch and approximate dates of service, social security number and service number if one was issued, date and place of birth. We need a signature from the veteran, if deceased, next of kin, date, and include your mailing address.

NAVY, MARINE CORPS, COAST GUARD ARE NOT FIRE RELATED RECORDS.

...

FAX: (314) 801-9195 Or National Personnel Records Center 9700 Page Avenue St. Louis, MO 63132

Thanks JACKIE BARNES Customer Service Representative National Personnel Record Center

added by 152.3.175.95 20:56, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Answer to Concerns

In 1973, when the fire happened a very very small portion of Navy and USMC were caught in the fire becuase they were out of the file area on the desks of people who worked on the 6th floor. They consisted of two to three dozen records that the work force was handling on the particular day that the fire happened. The reason why the blanket statement doesnt say USMC/Navy was in the fire is becuase Navy and Marine Corps records werent stored on the 6th floor...but that doesnt include the ones out of file on people's desks. I have talked about this with NPRC customer service and they have verified it. I have also spoken with the Research Room at 314-801-0850 and they have verified it as well. In addition, the Military Operations Branch, in charge of high profile records has said the same thing. So...thats the source. -OberRanks 02:51, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

That actually sounds reasonable. I would still have some concerns. I should first give the background of my interest in this issue; as you must know there are many people who have made claims about extraordinary military careers - they say their actions are unverifiable because the proof of those accomplishments was destroyed in the fire. I have been after one such individual who claims that he left the service June 30, 1973. He says that his records hadn't been filed yet and that they burned in the fire.

I don't doubt that your information above may be accurate, but it seems that more questions arise in my head and that more information and clarity could be obtained.

First, shouldn't the fire have affected other Army and Air Force personnel, who don't fit the exact names and dates indicated by the NPR page, with about the same fraction as Navy and Marine records? That is to say that the 2-3 dozen files that were out for review should include all branches of service?

Second, would all of these files have been out for information requests or would any of these files have been new files from recently discharged servicemen?

Lastly, it seems reasonable that the employees on the sixth floor would have had responsibilities for a subset of the total collection. Since the 6th floor mainly held Army and Air Force records (?) - I'd guess this was their main responsibility? And it should have been extrordinary for them to have files from other parts of the building. Is there any way to better limit the services, service dates, etc of files that may have been carried to the 6th floor from other parts of the archives? Why weren't files from other areas of the building signed out?

More information on these issues would make the page better.

-152.3.175.95 16:25, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

When I say “a small number”, that is not an exaggeration. I once spoke to an Expert Archivist at NPRC who told me the number of the records caught on 6th floor desks, which were USMC/USN/USCG numbered less than 25 to 30. The reason that is not advertised is because of what you said. People with exalted claims scream and shout that they had Navy and Marine Corps records in the fire when in fact it was such a small number that these people are almost certainly lying. As far as your other questions, it probably wasn’t that unusual to have some records from another section of the building on the 6th for whatever reason and who knows what kind of sign out procedures they had back in those days. That was over 35 years ago before computers, internet, and from what I understand about that building, before 1995 it was run very loosely with little accountability or quality control. Pretty scary when you think about it, actually, these are records of our country’s veterans and should be respected. -OberRanks 14:27, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Kennedy pamphlet

OK, my {{fact}} tag was removed, so I'm bringing this up here. Our article seems to claim that the NPRC claims that the Kennedy pamphlet was a "main origin" of the conspiracy theory. Somehow, I doubt that (either that it WAS the main origin, or that a federal agency said a Senator's pamphlet was the main origin). If Kennedy's office "did not outright say" that the fire was a fabrication, how can it be the main origin of the conspiracy theory? This sounds like a huge dollop of reading between the lines, and in fact verges on libel. The section should be carefully rewritten to say only what sources actually say. --Dhartung | Talk 02:40, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

I've confirmed directly with NPRC, specifically one of their archvists as well as one of their records historians, that veteran case workers in Kennedy's office put out to veterans that the fire didnt happen. I've also spoken to one case worker in Kennedy's office who told me that directly. NPRC's address is 9700 Page Avenue; St. Louis, MO 63132 if this needs to be verified and the general information number is 314-801-0800. A rewording probably is in order, but there is no doubt that there are people out there, espeically the "VSO"s (Veteran Service Officers) who are telling people the fire didnt happen becuase they don't like it when records requests are answered incompletely. In 15 years dealing with this subject, I've heard a wide variety of terms such as the "fire lie", the "fire excuse" as well just general cracks that NPRC is lazy and doesnt want to answer letters so they made up a story about a fire. It is a controversial topic, but it is true. -OberRanks (talk) 11:59, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

Added thought: this line "in fact verges on libel" might be seen as violating WP:NLT. I think that might need to be removed. I don't see it that way, but others might. -OberRanks (talk) 12:06, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

I didn't say I was going to sue. I didn't make any threat at all. The threat of damage to the project does exist, however, and I think it's best to keep this out of the article until it can be sourced in a more concrete way. Our having a well-sourced article about the fire is really the best way to combat any misinformation about it (which is likely innocent, as the majority of a Senator's staff won't even have been born when it happened, and if they spend their days trying to get information out of federal agencies may well develop a dim view of their responsiveness).--Dhartung | Talk 12:00, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

Don't worry, there was never any indication that you were making a legal threat, only that the way some people are on this site, if you say you drove by a courthouse on the way to work they scream legal threat. I just didnt want anyone to give you a hard time. Very good poinbts you made, and the section has been removed. For further info on the 1973 fire, check out this thread: http://www.omsa.org/forums/showthread.php?t=2314 I've found that the person who runs it gives very good information. -OberRanks (talk) 13:33, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Section Moved

I moved it here for further working-on. I can't find a book that says these things, only e-mails and phone conversations (although those were direct with regards to what was being conveyed). Anyway, moved here since a good hard core source can't be found. -OberRanks (talk) 12:24, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

Conspiracy theories In recent years, some conspiracy theories have emerged to explain the 1973 National Archives Fire. No such claims are taken very seriously by the United States government. Such conspiracy accusations include:

• The Federal Government intentionally started the 1973 National Archives Fire as a cover to destroy unwanted military files, erase certain records from the Second World War, and to reduce budget costs by destroying a floor of an under-budgeted federal building. (Source: National Personnel Records Center, 2007)

• Agents of anti-government organizations broke into NPRC and started the 1973 fire as a terrorist attack. (Source: National Personnel Records Center, 2007)

• The 1973 Fire did not happen at all, and that the explanation of a fire destroying millions of military records is a lie conceived by the Federal Government to cut costs and avoid public requests for the older military files. One of the main origins of this theory appears to be an information pamphlet created by the office of United States Senator Ted Kennedy in 2003. The pamphlet, which dealt with acquiring World War II military medals, advised veterans and thier families to "seriously challenge" any claim that a military record had been destroyed in the 1973 fire and that, if a military award was denied due to record destruction (most often the case with the Purple Heart), to seek "positive proof" that NPRC was in fact telling the truth. While Senator Kennedy's office did not outright say that the fire of 1973 was a fabrication, many veterans groups have since stated that the 1973 fire did not in fact happen. (Source: National Personnel Records Center, 2007)