Talk:152 mm howitzer-gun M1937 (ML-20)

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[edit] Recent rename

Can I ask why was the article moved from "152-mm gun-howitzer M1937 (ML-20)" to "152 mm ML-20 field howitzer" ? (Same question about 37-mm air-defense gun M1939 (61-K)). Bukvoed 16:06, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

Same question from me. The previous name was fine, and was a good translation of the official Russian name. Balcer 16:36, 13 May 2007 (UTC)
O-oh, The Old Guard said its word :-). I am also for returning the previous name. LostArtilleryman 16:44, 13 May 2007 (UTC)
Firstly, I believe that we would need to make some sort of naming convention for Soviet/Russian weapon systems, and the artillery systems in particular. It is quite obvious that these names have been taken from some Russian language text. Firstly, the current version is overly complicated. The article names are right now a mix of different designation systems! I suggest that we start with naming them with caliber, then weapon system, and finally name, like "122 mm howitzer D-30". Alternatively, the GRAU system could be used if that is more familiar for the system in question. The system with model and year could be dropped altogether from the header, but mentioned in the first paragraph with bold text.
Secondly, the metric system should be written with a separating space in English, not with a hyphen like it is done in Russian (i.e. "122 mm", not "122mm" or "122-mm"). See [1]--MoRsE 07:58, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

Just to illustrate the current situation - we need to clean up and systemize the artillery systems here! --MoRsE 08:19, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

Current name Naming suggestion
37 mm anti-tank gun M1930 (1-K) 1-K, M1930, M-1930 M-30 --> 37 mm anti-tank gun M1930
37 mm anti-tank gun M1932
37 mm M1939 61-K, M1939, M-1939, M-39 --> 37 mm anti-aircraft gun M1939
37-mm trench gun M1915 M1915, M-1915, M-15 --> 37 mm trench gun M1915
45-mm anti-tank gun M1937 (53-K) 53-K, M1937, M-1937 M-37 --> 45 mm anti-tank gun M1937
45-mm anti-tank gun M1942 (M-42) M-42, M1942, M-1942 --> 45 mm anti-tank gun M1942
50-PM 38, 5 cm Granatwerfer 205/l(r) --> 50 mm mortar M1938
50-PM 39, 5 cm Granatwerfer 205/2(r) --> 50 mm mortar M1939
50-PM 40, 5 cm Granatwerfer 205/3(r) --> 50 mm mortar M1940
50-PM 41, 5 cm Granatwerfer 200(r) --> 50 mm mortar M1941
57-mm anti-tank gun M1943 (ZiS-2) ZiS-2, M1943, M-1943, M-43 --> 57 mm anti-tank gun M1943
6-inch siege gun M1877 6 inch siege gun M1877
6-inch siege gun M1904 6 inch siege gun M1904
76-mm air-defense gun M1914/15 M1914, M-1914, M-14, M1915, M-1915, M-15 --> 76 mm anti-aircraft gun M1914/15
76-mm air-defense gun M1938 M1938, M-1938, M-38 --> 76 mm anti-aircraft gun M1938
76-mm divisional gun M1902/30 M1902, M-1902, M-02, M1930, M-1930, M-30, 7.62 cm FK 295/l(r), 7.62 cm FK 295/2(r) --> 76 mm divisional gun M1902/30
76-mm divisional gun M1902 M1902, M-1902, M-02, armata wz 02/26, 7.5 cm FK 02/26(p) --> 76 mm divisional gun M1902
76-mm divisional gun M1936 (F-22) F-22, M1936, M-1936, M-36, 7.62 cm FK 296(r), 7.62 cm PaK 36(r) --> 76 mm divisional gun M1936
7.62-cm Pak 36(r) --> 76 mm anti-tank gun M1936
76-mm divisional gun M1939 (USV) USV, M1939, M-1939, M-39 --> 76 mm divisional gun M1939
76-mm mountain gun M1938 M1938, M-1938, M-38 --> 76 mm mountain gun M1938
76-mm regimental gun M1927 M1927, M-1927, M-27 --> 76 mm regimental gun M1927
76-mm regimental gun M1943 M1943, M-1943, M-43 --> 76 mm regimental gun M1943
82-PM 36, 8.2 cm Granatwerfer 2747 l(r) --> 82 mm mortar M1936
82-PM 37, 8.2 cm Granatwerfer 274/2(r) --> 82 mm mortar M1937
82-PM 41, 8.2 cm Granatwerfer 274/3(r) --> 82 mm mortar M1941
82-PM 43 --> 82 mm mortar M1943
107-PBHM 38, 10.7-cm Gebirgsgranatwerfer 328(r) --> 107 mm mountain mortar M1938
85-mm air-defense gun M1939 (52-K) 52-K, KS-12, M1939, M-1939, M-39, 8.5 cm FlaK M.39(r), 8.5/8.8 cm Flak M.39(r) --> 85 mm anti-aircraft gun M1939
M1944, M-1944, M-44, KS-18, 8.5-cm Flak M.44(r) --> 85 mm anti-aircraft gun M1944
87-mm light field gun M1877 M1877, M-1877, M-77 --> 87 mm light field gun M1877
100-mm field gun M1944 (BS-3) BS-3, M1944, M-1944, M-44 --> 100 mm field gun M1944
107-mm gun M1910 M1910, M-1910, M-10 --> 107 mm gun M1910
120-HM 38, 12 cm Granatwerfer 378(r), 12 cm Granatwerfer 42, 12 cm GrW 42 --> 120 mm mortar M1938
120-HM 43 --> 120 mm mortar M1943
122-mm gun M1931/37 (A-19) A-19, M1931, M-1931, M-31, M1937, M-1937, M-37 --> 122 mm gun M1931/37
122-mm howitzer M1909/37 M1909, M-1909, M-09, M1937, M-1937, M-37 --> 122 mm howitzer M1909/37
122-mm howitzer M1910/30 M1910, M-1910, M-10, M1930, M-1930, M-30 --> 122 mm howitzer M1910/30
122-mm howitzer M1938 (M-30) M1938, M-1938, M-38, M-30 --> 122 mm howitzer M1938
152 mm ML-20 field howitzer ML-20, M1937, M-1937, M-37, 15.2 cm K 433/l(r) --> 152 mm gun-howitzer M1937
152-mm gun M1910/30 M1910, M-1910, M-10, M1930, M-1930, M-30, 15.2 cm K 438(r) --> 152 mm gun M1910/30
152-mm gun M1910/34 M1910, M-1910, M-10, M1934, M-1934, M-34, 15.2 cm K 433/2(r) --> 152 mm gun M1910/34
152-mm howitzer M1909/30 M1909, M-1909, M-09, M1930, M-1930, M-30 --> 152 mm howitzer M1909/30
152-mm howitzer M1910/37 M1910, M-1910, M-10, M1937, M-1937, M-37 --> 152 mm howitzer M1910/37
152-mm howitzer M1938 (M-10) M-10, M1938, M-1938, M-38 --> 152 mm howitzer M1938
152-mm howitzer M1943 (D-1) D-1, M1943, M-1943, M-43 --> 152 mm howitzer M1943
152-mm siege gun M1910 M1910, M-1910, M-10 --> 152 mm siege gun M1910
160mm Mortar M1943 MT-13, M1943, M-1943, M-43 --> 160 mm mortar M1943
203-mm howitzer M1931 (B-4) B-4, M1931, M-1931, M-31, 20.3 cm H 503(r) --> 203 mm howitzer M1931
Tsar Cannon Tsar Cannon
ZiS-3 ZiS-3, ZIS-3 M1942, M-1942, M-42 --> 76 mm divisional gun M1942
D-10 tank gun D-10, D-10S, D-10T, D-10TG, D-10T2S --> D-10 tank gun
F-34 tank gun F-34 tank gun
ISU-122 JSU-122 --> ISU-122
ISU-152 JSU-152 --> ISU-152
Katyusha M-8, BM-8, BM-8-48, BM-8-24 --> Katyusha (it is a good gathering name, the article can explain the details)
M1938 mortar M1938, M-1938, M-38 --> 120 mm mortar M1938
Mortier de 280 modèle 1914 Schneider Mortier de 280 modèle 1914 Schneider
SU-122 SU-122
SU-76 SU-76
Post-war artillery pieces
M1954, M-1954, M-54 --> 130 mm towed gun M-46
M1955, M-1955, M-55, 152 mm towed howitzer D-20 --> 152 mm howitzer M1955
2A18 2A18, M1963, M-1963, M-63, D-30, D-30 Lyagushka, D-30A, D-30A Lyagushka, 122 mm howitzer D-30 --> 122 mm howitzer M1963
2A3, SM-54, SM-54 Grabin --> 406 mm gun Kondensator 2P
A-222, AK A-222, A-222 Bereg, AK A-222 Bereg --> 130 mm coastal artillery gun A-222
KS-19, KS-19M, KS-19M2 --> 100 mm anti-aircraft gun KS-19M2
57 mm AZP S-60 S-60 --> 57 mm anti-aircraft gun S-60
ZPU-4 14.5 mm anti-aircraft machinegun ZPU-4
ZU-23-2 ZU-23, 2A13, ZU-23-2 --> 23 mm anti-aircraft gun ZU-23-2
ZSU-57-2 ZSU-57-2
ZSU-23-4 ZSU-23-4
Tunguska-M1 2K22M Tunguska-M1, Tunguska 2S6M, Tunguska 2S6, 2S6, 2S6M, 2K22, 2K22M --> Tunguska-M1
B-10, RG82, RG-82 --> 82 mm recoilless gun B-10
2S1 M1974, M-74, 2S1, 2S1 Gvodzika, 2S1 Carnation, SO122, SO-122 --> 122 mm self-propelled howitzer 2S1
2S3 Akatsiya M1973, M-73, 2S3 Akatsiya, 2S3M, 2S3M Akatsiya, 2S3 Acacia, SO152, SO-152 --> 152 mm self-propelled howitzer 2S3
2S4 Tyulpan M1975, M-75, 2S4 Tyulpan, 2S4 Tulpan --> 240 mm self-propelled mortar 2S4
2S5 Giatsint-S M1981, M-81, 2S5 Giatsint-S, 2S5 Hyacinth --> 152 mm self-propelled gun 2S5
2S7 Pion 2S7 Pion, 2S7M Pion, 2S7 Peony --> 203 mm self-propelled gun 2S7
2S9, 2S9 Anona, 2S9 Anona-S --> 120 mm self-propelled howitzer 2S9
2B11, 2S12, 2S12-RT, 2S12 Sani --> 120 mm self-propelled mortar 2S12
2B14 Podnos 2B14 Podnos, 2B14 --> 82 mm mortar 2B14
2B16 Nona-K, 2B16, Nona, Nona-K --> 120 mm towed gun-mortar 2B16
M1989, M-89, 2A19 Msta-S --> 152 mm self-propelled howitzer 2A19
2S23, 2S23 Nona-SVK, Nona, Nona-SVK --> 120 mm self-propelled gun-mortar 2S23
2B24 --> 82 mm mortar 2B24
Sprut anti-tank gun 2S25, 2S25 Sprut-SD, Sprut, Sprut-SD --> 125 mm self-propelled anti-tank gun 2S25
2A29, 2A29 Rapira, Rapira --> 100 mm anti-tank gun 2A29
2S31 Vena 120 mm self-propelled gun (2S31 Vena)
M1976, M-1976, M-76, 2A36, 2A36 Giatsint, 2A36 Giatsint-B, Giatsint, Giatsint-B --> 152 mm towed gun M1976
Sprut anti-tank gun 2A45, 2A45M, 2A45M Sprut-B, Sprut, Sprut-B --> 125 mm anti-tank gun 2A45
2A65, 2A65B, 2A65B Msta-B, Msta, Msta-B --> 152 mm towed howitzer 2A65
TOS-1 Buratino, TOS-1-4, TOS-1 Buratino --> 220 mm multiple rocket launcher system TOS-1
2K5 Korshun --> ? multiple rocket launcher 2K5
BM-13 M-13, BM-13, BM-13-16, Type 74 (multiple rocket launcher), Type 74, 132 mm multiple rocket launcher Katyusha, M-30, M-31, M-31-12 --> Katyusha
BM-14 BM-14 --> RPU-14
BMD-20
BM-21 9K51, 122 mm multiple rocket launcher BM-21, 122 mm multiple rocket launcher Grad, 9A51 Prima, Sakr-18 --> BM-21 Grad
BM-24
BM-25
BM-27 9P140, 9K57, BM-22, BM-22 Uragan, 9P140 Uragan, 220 mm multiple rocket launcher 9P140, 220 mm multiple rocket launcher Uragan, BM-27 --> BM-27 Uragan
BM-30 9K58, 9A52-2, Smerch-M, 9A52-2 Smerch-M, 300 mm multiple rocket launcher 9A52-2, 300 mm multiple rocket launcher Smerch, BM-30 --> BM-30 Smerch
ASU-57 ASU-57
ASU-76
ASU-85 ASU-85

07:58, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

Well, as a Russian artilleryman, I can say that Soviet/Russian designations were the subject of change several times. E. g. official Russian name for the D-1 howitzer in 1943 was 152-мм гаубица обр. 1943 г. - 152 mm howitzer M1943 will the English direct analogue. But in everyday language this name is difficult to say. So more brief developer index such as D-1 was used. So, Russian historians in their books (Shunkov, Shirokorad) use the cumbersome concatenation of official name and developer's index in parenthesis. In ruWiki, where I am one of artillery articles supervisor, we shared this approach but only for WW2 pieces. After WW2 'model 19XX' designation in new Soviet artillery pieces was dropped and developer index was instated instead. So 122 mm howitzer D-30 or 152 mm gun-howitzer D-20 will be correct English translation. But older pieces never renamed! For the end of their operational life they designated in official texts such as ballistic tables with their WW2-era name. For ML-20 English equivalent is 152 mm howitzer-gun M1937. No field attribute. It never has it at all. Either highly official 152 mm howitzer-gun M1937 or informal but also official ML-20 were used in Russian practice. Only 100 mm BS-3 officialy had 'field' attribute. And today, indices were again changed. In Russian Army everyday talk the names such as Acacia, Msta, Nona is used and GRAU indices were added in some cases. So nonformal but quite common concatenation 2S19 Msta-S is used in descriptive texts including ruWiki ones. LostArtilleryman 08:23, 14 May 2007 (UTC)
Thank you for clarifying this. The most important thing is that we can get some order among these. I added some suggestions in the table above. Please correct them if you like. --MoRsE 08:58, 14 May 2007 (UTC)
I offer to divide Soviet/Russian artillery into three naming categories. First category is a pre-war and WW2 pieces. I agree drop into the article name developer index, but model IMHO must retain. For example, 76 mm divisional gun M1942 will be right translation from the Russian official name for 76-мм дивизионная пушка обр. 1942 г.. This is a name which used in manuals, ballistic tables etc. But the problem is in the rarely historical conversational usage of such name. Ziska, ZiS-3, Divisionka is colloquial names for the piece. Of course, all of them we can describe in a first passage of the article 76 mm divisional gun M1942 (official designation) or ZiS-3 (developer designation, also official) is a WW2 Soviet... and so on. It seems to me include developer index in parenthesis for better "compatibility" with primary Russian sources and ruWiki, but if majority will agree with the names without developer index (by default, we have it as redirect), I will not protest, this is a conditional and disputable matter. The second category is most simple - postwar Soviet guns. They have official names like 122-мм гаубица Д-30 and 122 mm howitzer D-30 is a perfect name for the article in enWiki. Modern ordnance is more difficult to name. When I was in Army, I did not see any manual for modern SPG howitzers, only for towed ones such as D-30 or D-20. In conversations we called machines by name, e. g. Where is Capt. Ivanov now? He is on exercises with his battery of Acacias (not 2S3). But in ruWiki we have an agreement: articles about "flowers" and "rivers" are called with GRAU index first and then the Army name - 2S1 Gvozdika. But modern towed pieces officially retain old order but developer index is replaced by GRAU one, e. g. 152 mm gun 2A36. And I guess, the official name of SPGs will be something like 152 mm self-propelled howitzer 2S3 without Acacia, but this needs to be checked and verified. Another topic for discuss is Katyusha MRLSs. This name is common one for definite set of combat machines such as BM-13, BM-13N, BM-13SN, BM-31, BM-8-24, BM-8-48. LostArtilleryman 09:27, 14 May 2007 (UTC)
Okay, I have tried to update the list. Could this be accepted? (please correct the list if you find something that is wrong there). Also, I am a user of the AWB tool, so I could do the changes relatively easily, as soon as we agree upon some sort of naming convention. --MoRsE 13:13, 14 May 2007 (UTC)
This is a very interesting discussion, which should probably be moved to a more general place where more people can contribute. We have Wikipedia:Naming conventions (ships) and Wikipedia:Naming conventions (aircraft), maybe we should start Wikipedia:Naming conventions (weapons). Already plenty of good editors had to waste a lot of energy and nerves over naming (one example I remember well was the discussion over Talk:Kb ppanc wz.35). Setting up formal conventions would make life easier.
Until such conventions are developed, all I can offer is my personal opinion. I could accept the above list. Still, in my opinion the previous title, 152-mm gun-howitzer M1937 (ML-20), was better. It seems to me that in a Wikipedia article we do not have to use the official name of the thing described for the article title, instead the goal is to choose the title which makes it most easy for the reader to find the necessary information. To give one example, the article about Panzerkampfwagen V Panther is under Panther tank. Same goes for Tiger I and Tiger II. The place for the official name or names is in fact in the first sentence of the article, and that is where it is located in the articles about those German tanks.
To repeat my point, in my opinion the article title is just a tag to allow the reader to find information with maximum efficiency. Think of a reader who is scanning the list in Category:World War II Soviet guns, trying to quickly find the information about a gun he heard about somewhere. The title 152-mm gun-howitzer M1937 (ML-20) will serve him best here, I think.Balcer 02:10, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
I agree with Balcer, but I also agree with changing 122-mm to 122 mm, more usual for the English/American reader. In the proposed new names table there are some inconsistencies - M-30 is a WW2 piece, so English equivalent for the official name is 122 mm howitzer M1938, for D-20 there is no буксируемый in official and common Russian name, so 152 mm gun-howitzer D-20 is better variant. I see that gun-howitzer and howitzer-gun is not a adopted term in English, but these words are the official terms for some ordnance pieces in Russian practice. Why we shall drop it? Moreover, even the order of the howitzer and the gun words had sense in Russian artillery history - first type is more correspondent to the piece design features. But, I've mentioned above, Balcer is right when the talk is about finding the particular piece in a roll. Both names are official, I remember by the way and none of them are too familiar for the most of enWiki reader such as Tiger or Panther tanks case. So including developer index in parenthesis is good thing IMHO. But this question should be definitely considered by more participants, Balcer is right again. I can not take the responsibility solely to define the naming rules. LostArtilleryman 04:08, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
1) I have no problem with replacing a hyphen with a separating space.
2) IMHO we should use gun-howitzer and howitzer-gun where these terms appear in the Soviet/Russian designation.
3) I'm not sure about including the development index.
4) As already mentioned by LostArtilleryman, in case we decide to drop the development index, it will be more consistent to name the article about M-30 122 mm howitzer M1938. Same with ZiS-3 - 76 mm divisional gun M1942.
5) As for asking for more opinions... I'll give a link to this discussion here: Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Military history/Weaponry task force.
Bukvoed 08:36, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
Designations of Russian towed artillery - here some facts to make the right decision. LostArtilleryman 11:43, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
I also have no problem with replacing the hyphen with a separating space. Maybe one compromise would be to include the development index only for those cases in which it can be shown to be widely used in English language literature (for example ZiS-3 and ML-20. Balcer 12:07, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Resume on propositions

Well, after half of week only following participants said their words to the rename discussion topic: Balcer, Bukvoed, MoRsE, LostArtilleryman. All others are inactive, at least in mentioned time period. Now the opinions area is:

  • All four agree to replace Russian xx-mm to more English traditioned xx mm (same for inches, lines, possibly puds and so on).
  • The opinions is divided concerning developer index in parenthesis. Balcer and LostArtilleryman are the strong supporters of this, MoRsE is in strong opposition, Bukvoed will agree with any prevailed point of view.

So, when I'm writing this posting now, the supporters of including developer index have majority of votes. But I offer wait for coming weekend and if there will not be any other votes, make a decision, which is now like 122 mm howitzer M1938 (M-30). LostArtilleryman 04:08, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

Sounds good to me. Balcer 14:15, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

Now, there are now other votes and opinions and I begin renaming the articles to the mentioned above standard. LostArtilleryman 03:47, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Gun-howitzer

Sorry to come in late. To add to the above, gun-howitzer is a correct English term, and I believe it would be the correct translation of the Russian howitzer-gun. (Do the two terms g.-h. and h.-g. have different meanings in Russian?) See howitzer. —Michael Z. 2007-07-17 05:49 Z

In Russian "howitzer-gun" is an artillery system where howitzer features dominate over gun ones. ML-20 is a good example of howitzer-gun: it has a good elevation but moderate muzzle velocity. "Gun-howitzer" means vice vesa case, where gun features dominate over howitzer ones. When A-19 gun was introduced, it often referred as gun-howitzer - it has moderate elevation (45 degrees, but it is equal to elevation of WW1 Russian short barreled howitzer) and high muzzle velocity. LostArtilleryman 06:14, 17 July 2007 (UTC)