Talk:136199 Eris/Archive 2

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This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.

1 Discordianism and 136199
2 Name and NPOV
3 Protection
4 The nutshell
- 4.1 Crux of this issue
5 Delisted GA
6 Proposal
7 The Arguments Thus Far...
8 Straw Poll
9 *nervous twitching*
10 New proposal
11 Archive
12 Late comment

Discordianism and 136199

Certain unwarranted claims about discordianism continue to surface in this article. While the discordians may have adopted Eris as a notable figure in their mythology, there is no evidence that the MPC had the discordians in mind when choosing the name, and to claim that 136199 Eris is named after the "Discordian goddess" is non-factual. There doesn't seem to be any good reason to refer to that group in this article at all. RandomCritic 02:44, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

I completely second this. --Merovingian - Talk 02:45, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

Well, there is the fact that Eris is the Greek name of the goddess, and only one of the "real" planets is named after a Greek God, and even most Dwarf Planets are Roman, and that there are likely more apt names for such a "historically significant" dwarf planet than a goddess with only two or three major appearances throughout Greek mythology. ... And of course the fact that I'm a discordian myself.--The Sporadic Update 04:34, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

It has nothing to do with the planet, if it isnt already, it should only be mentioned on the Eris (mythology) page -- Nbound 04:36, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

Eris is equally greek and discordian. There is no evidence that the name was based specifically on one OR the other, so both ought to be represented. fnord.:: senorsquiid

Except the fact the IAU requires all planets/dwarf planets to be named after greek/roman gods :) -- Nbound 04:50, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

Citation? Senorsquiid 04:55, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

Furthermore, as has been said, Eris is NOT a specifically greek deity, she IS just as Discordian than greek, and they are the same Goddess. Senorsquiid 04:57, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

Also, Discordians were amongst those petitioning the IAU to adopt "Eris" at the planet's name: http://www.chaosmagic.com/forums/dnhclelf-about19.html Drjon 05:13, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

The IAU certainly doesn't require Greek/Roman names for planets/Dwarf Planets, just off the top of my head Sedna is an Inuit Goddess. Not acknowledging that Eris is a Greek and Discordian goddess would smack of NPOV.Number36 05:16, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

Sedna isnt a dwarf planet ;) -- Nbound 05:19, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

Actually, Sedna may qualify as a dwarf planet pending the detailed definition of that category by the IAU. So nyahhh :P Number36 05:56, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

Yes, but it doesnt yet... my point still stands :) -- Nbound 06:02, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

Nope, if it does qualify then it is a Dwarf Planet right now and we're just not aware of it, until the IAU releases the detailed definition of the catagory we can't say that it isn't. And what do you suggest that they'll change it's name if it does qualify, or that it won't qualify because it's not a Greek or Roman name? My point stands.Number36 06:13, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

ALSO straight from the WGPSN (the guys who decide whether a name is right) Gazetteer: http://planetarynames.wr.usgs.gov/ (read the article in the news box) any discordian edits from here on i will treat as vandalism

Please sign your comments. And how exactly does that article deny the fact that Eris is both a Greek goddess and the Discordian Deity? Or in fact indicate that Mike Brown was specifically intending the name to only refer to only the Greek and specifically deny the Discordian, it doesn't. It only states that it was the name chosen & gives a run down of the Greek legend. If anything the closest to the reasoning behind the name given so far was not to honour the goddess, be she Greek or Discordian, at all but to reflect the debate and discord surrounding the planet, in which case it's only fitting that we are having this argument now. Number36 05:56, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

Except that planets/dwarf planets are named after greco-roman gods, that coupled with my link above, kinda nullifies your point, sure Brown could have even named it after the Discordian goddess,but the WGPSN actually names the object, and they have chosen to name it after the Greek Goddess -- Nbound 06:02, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

You'll need to cite exactly where the IAU have said that only greco-roman names are going to be used for Dwarf planets cos I ain't seeing it, especially when most of them are already used and there's probably going to be quite a few more Dwarf Planets found.Number36 06:13, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

Also that's all moot to this discussion anyway, since Eris is Discordian and Greek, the name would be Greco-roman, and she's also the Discordian goddess.Number36 06:21, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

actually i wont need to cite it at all, as the WGPSN link above will take to you to the news item about the new name, it only mentions the greek goddess, they are the authority on naming planets, hence it is named after a greek goddess, anything else you read into it is speculation, and this isnt specul-pedia :P -- Nbound 06:21, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

The article only mentions the Greek goddess is right, 'only mentions'. As opposed to specially stating that it is only named after that aspect of Eris, and is specifically intended not to be related to the Discordian goddess, who is btw the same goddess.Number36 06:30, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

Regardless of opinion on the matter, edit warring over this is lame. I've placed a warning on User:Nbound's talk page after his fourth revert in the past two hours. Please assume good faith and edit in peace. Kyaa the Catlord 06:44, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

Explanation has been left on your talk page Kyaa the Catlord -- Nbound 07:15, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

Your "explanation" falls short. You reverted four times in two hours and have, per your behaviour on this page, falsely assumed "ownership" of the article. Please review WP: 3rr. Number36 has successfully countered your argument, IAU has the final say as to "what Eris was named after" and until they state directly that Discordianism's Eris is not the one this body was named after, its POV to say that it was JUST the Greek Eris. WP policy is to remove information only as a last resort. Kyaa the Catlord 07:21, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

Kyaa, every reference I have seen about the origin of the name (with respect to the name of the dwarf planet) says "Greek". Their explanations reference the Greek goddess. I haven't seen any references to a Discordian origin. You said "until they state directly that Discordianism's Eris is not the one this body was named after, its POV to say that it was JUST the Greek Eris." What about the whole Wikipedia idea of verifiability? We already have citations for Greek origins, which is why it's fair game to add that fact to the article. You're claiming that the Discordian faith was a part of this - show us the proof, get a citation, and it will be a valid addition. Until then, play by the rules, please. --Ckatz^chat_spy 07:55, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

Please AGF. I am playing by the rules, unlike Nbound who has broken 3rr on this article. I am not claming that the Discordian faith had anything to do with the naming of the dwarf planet. I'm claiming that Eris is the goddess of Discordianism which is verifiable, accurate and that this should be reflected in the article. The fact that Eris, the god that this body was named after, is also the goddess of Discordianism should not be causing such a controversy. Kyaa the Catlord 08:06, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

"AGF"? Always do, and I would ask the same of you. The controversy was fueled in large part by

continuing attempts (not just by you, of course) to add text implying that Discordian beliefs did play a role in Eris' naming. Nbound's changes allow for a mention of the Discordian belief, while separating it from the decision-making process. Hopefully, that will calm things down. --Ckatz^chat_spy 08:19, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

Chiding me to "play by the rules" seems to counter your assertion that you "always" assume good faith. If you could present evidence that I haven't "played by the rules", I'd be willing to address your accusations. I'd also point out that nowhere did I suggest that Discordians had anything to do with the naming process, rather I was suggesting that for NPOV and factual accuracy, that recognizing that she is the modern diety for Discordianism would be proper. I still prefer the older wording, the new one doesn't flow as well and this should be addressed in our efforts to make this article rate FA status. Kyaa the Catlord 08:31, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

Again, the disputed text (the aforementioned "older wording" which you, among others, were adding) implied a connection. Nbound's revision does not. I outlined above how you should (as per Wiki convention) find supporting citations if you wanted to add text that suggested a Discordian role. That was the intent of "play by the rules" - please don't read things into it that aren't there. (Language like "chiding" and "accusations" doesn't help either - keep in mind that you made the initial presumption as to my intentions with your "Please AGF" statement.) Anyways, it's late, and we should probably move this to our talk pages. Or, agree to disagree, accept Nbound's compromise for now, and get back to working on improving the article - as you mentioned, there's the possibility of FA status to work towards... --Ckatz^chat_spy 09:20, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

Once more, if placing Discordian before goddess implies a role in the choice of name, this implies that ancient greeks who feared Eris also played a role in naming Eris. The logic in this argument is faulty as hell. The change I reverted to stated that "Eris is named for the Greek and Discordian goddess Eris". The only thing that says is that Eris is a Greek Goddess AND a Discordian Goddess. It implies NOTHING pertaining to the role in the naming of the object by ANY group/religious faction/etc. This is basic elementary school english, there are no tricks involved and to suggest that by stating that Eris is a Discordian diety somehow implies that Discordians were involved in the naming of the dwarf planet is an amazing stretch of your own imagination. Kyaa the Catlord 09:43, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

That Eris is a goddess from Greek mythology is a pertinent fact about the naming of Eris, referenced in the available literature about the choice of the name. That the discordians have appropriated the Greek goddess Eris for their own purposes is a cultural fact entirely irrelevant to the naming of 136199 Eris. To intrude discordianism into this is like demanding that the explanation of the name of 90482 Orcus be emended to read "the discoverers suggested naming the object after Orcus, an alternative name for the Greek god Hades, and a Dungeons and Dragons demon prince..." The latter is true, but not relevant.RandomCritic 15:18, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

Thank you Kyaa. Just one final note, the IAU may be the authority on naming conventions for planets etc, but they are not authorities on mythology and religion, the fact remains that Eris is both a Greek goddess and the Discordian deity, you can't name something after one and not the other because they are the same entity, just two different interpretations. (Also just so it's clear for those reading this, I wasn't edit warring merely comment on this talk page, I haven't edited the main page at all).Number36 07:25, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

Re: Merovingian's reasoning for removing Discordianism. - If including Discordianism implies that the Discordians were involved in the naming process, does including Greek imply that ancient Greeks were involved in the naming process? I think this logic is faulty. Kyaa the Catlord 07:27, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

As per Mike browns own page: http://www.gps.caltech.edu/~mbrown/ actual article: http://www.gps.caltech.edu/~mbrown/planetlila/index.html

Eris, the largest dwarf planet known, was discovered in an ongoing survey at Palomar Observatory's Samuel Oschin telescope by astronomers Mike Brown (Caltech), Chad Trujillo (Gemini Observatory), and David Rabinowitz (Yale University). We officially suggested the name on 6 September 2006, and it was accepted and announced on 13 September 2006. In Greek mythology, Eris is the goddess of warfare and strife. She stirs up jealousy and envy to cause fighting and anger among men. At the wedding of Peleus and Thetis, the parents of the Greek hero Achilles, all the gods with the exception of Eris were invited, and, enraged at her exclusion, she spitefully caused a quarrel among the goddesses that led to the Trojan war. In the astronomical world, Eris stirred up a great deal of trouble among the international astronomical community when the question of its proper designation led to a raucous meeting of the IAU in Prague. At the end of the conference, IAU members voted to demote Pluto and Eris to dwarf-planet status, leaving the solar system with only eight planets.

There, conclusive proof, now can we please remove the Discordianism reference from the page -- Nbound 07:30, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

Noone is claiming that Eris is not equally a Greek god AND a Discordian one. She's both. In order to be fully accurate and NPOV, the article should reflect both faiths, not choosing one over the other. Kyaa the Catlord 07:33, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

But they are giving the common reader the idea that it was named after the discordian diety which it was not, and that discordianism was actively involved in the choice of name, itd be like calling a rock "Allah" and claiming it to be named after the christian and jewish gods as well as the Islamic one, because technically they are the same god, when the discoverer only had the Islamic one in mind - Nbound 07:37, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

This is my reasoning for [1]. --Merovingian - Talk 07:41, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

Offtopic, but im guessing these edits are part of Operation Mindfuck (AKA. discordian culture jamming) -- Nbound 07:47, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

Hmmm... remember when the big argument was over Bode's Law? Anyways, nice compromise edit, Nbound. Good work. --Ckatz^chat_spy 08:03, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

Thanks :) -- Nbound

That works for me as well. Thanks Nbound. Kyaa the Catlord 08:07, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

At least how it stands now, I'm satisfied with the compromise. It will not confuse anybody, provides relevant information about the name, and as anyone who works in the techno-scientific field probably knows, Discordianism is pretty pervassive, hell, the Discordian Calendar is built into every distro of Linux I'VE ever used, and probably the one's they use as well. So can we all be happy how it is and now only fix solid provable facts and horrible horrible mispellings (sic), bad grammar, and poorly constructed sentences? This is not an OM operation, at least as far as I'm concerned, but a recognition of the way things is.Senorsquiid 14:50, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

The question is not whether Eris is "a Discordian goddess" or not. The question is whether that fact (which can be stipulated to) has any relevance to an article about 136199 Eris. In the absence of evidence that either the discoverers or the MPC nomenclature body considered discordianism in choosing the name, it's a completely irrelevant factoid that doesn't belong in this article.

The accusation that not mentioning discordianism along with Eris is NPOV is wrong. There is no violation of NPOV in making sure that the article sticks to the facts and does not bring in extraneous and irrelevant material. If the article were to become a vehicle of discordian propaganda, however, that would be a violation of NPOV.

This is not a "he said she said" situation. There is absolutely no evidence that discordianism has any relevance to an article on the astronomical object 136199 Eris at all. References to the relationship between discordianism and Eris can be found at Eris (mythology), where those who are curious can look them up. If the discordians start to worship the dwarf planet Eris, then that fact can be added to an "Eris in popular culture" section. At this moment, however, the only connection between the two is that a few discordians desperately want to be mentioned in an article about 136199 Eris, and I do not believe that Wikipedia is so self-referential as to find that encyclopedic and worthy of mention.RandomCritic 15:02, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

Mike Brown clearly knows that he can't get away with naming a planet (-like thing) after a character from popular culture, which is the main status of Eris the Discordian goddess--from her appearance in The Illuminati Trilogy. So the fact that he only points to the Greek origin of the name--i.e., the origin that would be seen as legitimate by the IAU--is not particularly strong evidence that he didn't have any other origin in mind when he suggested the term. That Brown would change the name of the moon from Gabrielle to Dysnomia does indicated a somewhat playful nature.

On the other hand, if you were to ask a randomly selected representative of nerd culture who "Eris" was, I think you'd find a lot more people referencing The Illumninati Trilogy than the Trojan War. This is not to do a mind-reading act and say that we know something about Brown's intentions that he's never mentioned, but to suggest that the Discordian connection is a significant association that deserves a few words in the name section. It's not just a few freaks trying to piggy-back their freakish belief system into a scientific article. Nareek 15:33, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

"So the fact that he only points to the Greek origin of the name [...] is not particularly strong evidence that he didn't have any other origin in mind" -- see Wikipedia:What Wikipedia is not:

"Wikipedia is not a collection of unverifiable speculation. "

"the Discordian connection is a significant association that deserves a few words in the name section"

"Wikipedia is not an indiscriminate collection of items of information. That something is 100% true does not mean it is suitable for inclusion in Wikipedia."

Until evidence is provided that Brown or any other person involved in the naming process had discordianism in mind in creating the name, references to discordianism are non-relevant trivia. Discordian Eris has no more standing to appear in this article than DC Comics Eris or any other appearance of Eris in other milieux.RandomCritic 16:18, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

Once again, I step forward to remind everyone that edit warring is lame. I have reported User:RandomCritic for breaching WP:3RR and will continue to do so if such wars continue. Kyaa the Catlord 16:30, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

It would be speculation to suggest that Brown got the name from The Illuminati Trilogy, but the edit last I checked doesn't do that. The question of whether it's relevant is what we're debating here. If Brown had found a Greek god named "Frodo" and gave that name to his planetoid, I don't think there's any doubt that we would mention that that was also the name of a character in a famous fantasy trilogy--whether or not Brown specifically mentioned Tolkien in his explanation. Eris is nearly as much a household name as Frodo, but she likewise appears in a trilogy whose ideas are fairly influential in the sorts of cultural circles represented by scientists and Xena fans. Nareek 16:48, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

To use a real-life example, also with Tolkien: there is a Saturnian moon called Narvi. Narvi is also the name of a dwarf in Tolkien's mythology. The article Narvi (moon) does not refer to the Tolkienian dwarf because it is not relevant.RandomCritic 16:55, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

Navri the dwarf is not NOTABLE. Hell, even via redirect you don't find Navri listed on the list of dwarves in Middle Earth. Eris, as the Discordian goddess, is notable. She's not just a offhand remark by a writer of fiction in the middle of the second book of his trilogy. She's the basis of a religion, not a fictional character. Kyaa the Catlord 17:11, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

Most Tolkien fans would recognize the name "Narvi" before they would recognize the name of the Norse giant "Narfi" from which the moon is named. That still doesn't make it relevant to the naming. But on to your point: you seem to be arguing that because discordians feel very very strongly about Eris that that guarantees discordianism a place in an article about 136199 Eris. And that is not logical and doesn't follow from the premise at all. What do strong religious feelings have to do with how astronomical objects are named?RandomCritic 17:27, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

Personally, I think the reference to discordianism is irrelevant since there is no evidence that suggests that the this dwarf planet and its moon where named as a reference to that modern-day group. As quoted above, the main consideration was the reference to the strife and conflict among astronomers regarding Eris' status. Other sources have quoted Mike Brown saying that the moon was named such because the first syllable of Dysnomia matches the first syllable of Brown's wife's first name, Diane. That fits with the Charon precedent. That is absolutely no evidence that Brown and his group took into consideration anything other than the names of two Greek goddesses. This could mean either that they only wanted to consider the Greek reference, or, and this is distinctly possible, they never even heard of Discordianism. I certainly never did until this debate. So I would vote to remove the reference in this article, unless evidence suggests that Brown's group did take Discordianism into consideration. --Volcanopele 17:25, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

Okay, seriously, this is getting ridiculous. I suggest the following language at the start of the "Name" Section as a compromise:

For discordians, this would allow a mention, but for others, this would point out that there is no evidence that the discordian incarnation had an impact on the naming of this dwarf planet. Volcanopele 18:37, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

They're the same goddess. Why "136199 is named after the Greek and Discordian goddess Eris" should be the language used. This is the language used prior to the edit war waged by RandomCritic. Kyaa the Catlord 18:51, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

Or, we could bypass the problem and say something like: "The discoverers referred to Greek mythology in explaining their choice of the name Eris." (My quickie text here is very clunky, I know, and would need to be refined. The idea I'm suggesting is to make a reference to the source of the name, rather than adding in references to a deity which is proving problematic.) --Ckatz^chat_spy 18:59, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

Even adding ",though the name "Eris" also refers to a goddess worshipped by Discordians" would be far preferable to "136199 is named after the Greek and Discordian goddess Eris", since there is no evidence to support that statement. --Volcanopele 19:04, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

How about we just quote the language from the USGS site and from Brown's site and let their characterizations speak for themselves?RandomCritic 19:37, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

No way. This article is only concerned about the Dwarf planet Eris and the Greek mythological figure Eris, anything more. No promotion and useless things in here, plz. --Pedro 19:39, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

Just adding to say that idiotisms like this is one of the core issues that prevents wikipedia from becoming a real encyclopedia. If you believe in some comedy religion that's your right to do but don't go out and add references to it on every related real subject. The notice on Discordianism here is about as justified as adding a comment about the Flying Spaghetti Monster to the Spaghetti page.

That was helpful. Kyaa the Catlord 22:56, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

A better analogy would be, say, writing that Nombre de Jesús was named after the "Christian messiah and Islamic prophet." Yes, Jesus of Nazareth could accurately be described as both, but really only one is relevant. However, if Kyaa (and any other Discordians) are happy with the current compromise, I would not want to cause any discord. --Iustinus 23:55, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

It is absolutely out of place the mention of Discordianism in this article. What would you think if Wikipedia had an article on Paul McCartney (asteroid) that says: "it is named after famous ex Beatle singer and bassist. Also there is a cafe in the suburbs of Buenos Aires which is named after him (and has him in high esteem)". THAT is nonsense, please!!! Someone must have the authority here to delete that mention and keep it that way. 200.55.126.124 02:04, 16 September 2006 (UTC) Nahuel

Name and NPOV

Currently, the introductory paragraph to the Name section reads as follows:

136199 Eris is named after the Greek goddess Eris (Ἔρις in Greek), a personification of strife and discord. The contemporary religion of Discordianism also worships this goddess.

This would appear to break NPOV and elevate the Greek and Discordian views of this goddess above all others. To show fairness to all points of view, I suggest that it be amended to read as follows:

136199 Eris is named after the Greek goddess Eris (Ἔρις in Greek), a personification of strife and discord. The contemporary religion of Discordianism also worships this goddess. In the DC Universe, Eris is also one of the major antagonists of Wonder Woman. As Discord, Eris also appeared in episodes of Xena: Warrior Princess (played by Morgan Reese Fairhead). Eris is also an important character in The Grim Adventures of Billy and Mandy.

And so on, until we've made sure that every Eris fangroup is satisfied that they haven't been overlooked.RandomCritic 16:40, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

That's why I objected to the mentioning of the Discordian connection in the first place; it's irrelevant and trivial. --Merovingian - Talk 16:47, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

There is a difference between a worshipped being than a fictional character. If we mention she was a Greek Goddess, based on common courtesy we should also aknowledge that she is the Goddess of the Discordians. Or are we giving greater weight to the Greeks than to a modern religion? Doesn't that strike anyone else as breaking NPOV? They should be given equal billing. She is their deity. Kyaa the Catlord 16:56, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

Discordianism is not an Eris fangroup, it is a modern religion, and therefore is not comparable to Xena or Wonderwoman. Eris is not a specifically Greek or Discordian goddess, but revered by both, and both have an equal claim. Senorsquiid 16:57, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

The strength of the discordians' belief is not at issue. References to Greek religion are also not relevant. This is not an article about religion. Eris is chosen as a name for 136199 Eris because Eris is a character in Greek mythology, not because Eris is or was worshipped by some group of people. If the argument for referring to discordianism is one from popularity, then we must include all other popular references to Eris. There are almost certainly more fans of Xena than there are discordians. Why should this article reflect a prejudice against them? Common courtesy dictates that if we acknowledge the discordians, we must also acknowledge all other persons with an interest in Eris.RandomCritic 17:06, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

rolls eyes* Your argument makes no sense. Greek mythology would not exist if the greeks did not worship the "mythological" Greek gods. Kyaa the Catlord 17:16, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

Sure it could. Mythology typically goes well beyond the scope of religion and includes all manner of things that are not worshipped. To the best of my knowledge, the Greeks never worshipped Eris (who would want to worship a malevolent goddess of disagreement?); she was an abstraction and a figure in a story.RandomCritic 19:12, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

I totally agree - discordianism do not belong to this article. Astronomysts did not kept discordianism in the mind when was naming Xena. TestPilot 17:02, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

Its not named Xena. Its named Eris. The Goddess of the Discordian religion. If they named a planet Christ, would it not make sense to note that the name's origin is that of the Christian deity? Kyaa the Catlord 17:05, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

Sure I know what the official name of UB313. Just used nickname, sorry. In fact, it is not Eris, it is 136199 Eris But the point was that when International Astronomical Union was naming UB313, also known as Xena, they was choosing name based on historical tradition to name planets by names of Greek myphological Gods. Yes, I know, Eris happend to be a name of characters of few soap operas, my neighbour name and name of the god of discordinaism religion. But thouse names was complitely irrelevant and was not in mind of astronomers when they was naming Eris. TestPilot 17:40, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

Yes, if the planet was named after Jesus, not Billy Christ, or Charles Christ, or Christ the Clown. If it was named after Bob Christ, than the name's origin should reference Bob Christ, not Jesus Christ. --Volcanopele 17:14, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

Pardon me while I go bang my head into a bloody wall. Kyaa the Catlord 17:17, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

Is there a reliable source that mentions 136199 Eris and Discordianism in the same page? Melchoir 17:12, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

A point of historical context: for the entire period in which astronomers have been giving classical names to moons, planets, and asteroids, almost 400 years now, the motivation has never been to promote the ancient Greek religion, but to provide recognizable names drawn from Classical mythology. To the best of my knowledge, none of the astronomers doing the naming has been a believer in the ancient Greek gods; to them, the names were important cultural artifacts, not religious ones; that is, they chose the names for their literary (i.e., fictional) and not their religious value. Noting that these names are sometimes the names of Greek or Roman gods, goddesses, heroes and monsters is simply a statement about their position in the mythology, and not an endorsement of a particular religion. There is no basis for an "equal time" NPOV argument. An explanation of the name should explain where the name came from and what the namer intended by giving that name.RandomCritic 17:17, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

The antireligious bias of the above statement should make it perfectly obvious the POV that is being pushed. Thank you. I rest my case. "They're Greek Gods, but not THOSE Greek Gods." Brilliant. Kyaa the Catlord 17:27, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

Except that you do not know what the namer intended, and neither do we, so until it's one way or the other both sides ought to be represented. Senorsquiid 17:27, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

Actually, we do: http://www.gps.caltech.edu/~mbrown/planetlila/index.html#eris --Volcanopele 17:32, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

In addition to Volcanopele's link, try http://news.google.com/news?q=%22136199%20Eris%22. Everyone says Brown named it after the Greek goddess and with specific note to what she meant to the Greeks. Melchoir 17:35, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

Untrue. We know exactly what was intended based on published materials:

"Eris is the Greek goddess of chaos and strife; she created a quarrel among goddesses that led to the Trojan War. This name could be considered quite fitting for the body that has fueled the debate concerning how to define a planet."[3] (from the U.S. Geological Survey's gazetteer of planetary nomenclature).

"We officially suggested the name on 6 September 2006, and it was accepted and announced on 13 September 2006. In Greek mythology, Eris is the goddess of warfare and strife. She stirs up jealousy and envy to cause fighting and anger among men. At the wedding of Peleus and Thetis, the parents of the Greek hero Achilles, all the gods with the exception of Eris were invited, and, enraged at her exclusion, she spitefully caused a quarrel among the goddesses that led to the Trojan war. In the astronomical world, Eris stirred up a great deal of trouble among the international astronomical community when the question of its proper designation led to a raucous meeting of the IAU in Prague."[4] (From Michael Brown, the discoverer).

I see repeated mentions of Greek mythology but nothing about discordianism.RandomCritic 17:36, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

In his statement he refers to the Original Snub, we have evidence that he is referring to the Eris of Discordianism in his own statement. Kyaa the Catlord 17:39, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

I don't see Brown ever using the words "Original Snub". The story of Eris has been around for at least 2700 years. Discordianism has only been around for c. 50 years. General theories of causality suggest that the former influenced the latter, and not the other way around.RandomCritic 18:09, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

Was that not in the original Greek mythology, and only in a modern telling? Otherwise, I'm not seeing the exclusive connection. The case has been made that the Discordians believe that the Eris of Greek mythology and their Eris is one in the same goddess. The issue is whether the naming of this dwarf planet had anything to do with Discordianism or whether Brown's group only intended to reference the Greek goddess. Based on Mike Brown's own words, they only intended to reference the Greek goddess. --Volcanopele 17:46, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

Noone has ever claimed they are not the same deity. There are two notable religious paths, one which feared her (The Greeks) and one which reveres her (the Discordians). Why stating that this dwarf planet was named after the goddess of both the ancient Greeks and the modern Discordians is such a big deal is beyond me! I'm not the one repeatedly reverting the article to push my POV, however. Kyaa the Catlord 17:51, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

It would be POV to mention discordianism, since there is no evidence that Brown's group had any intention to name this dwarf planet as a reference to the Discordian diety. If someone can find evidence that they did intend as such, my objections would be moot. --Volcanopele 17:57, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

If discordians (and their sympathizers) are not repeatedly reverting the article to push their POV, then why do references to discordianism keep on reappearing in it?RandomCritic 18:09, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

Its funny that the Discordians aren't the ones who violated 3rr and have been officially warned for doing so. Kyaa the Catlord 18:19, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

I'll need to read up on the specific of the 3rr but User:Senorsquiid may qualify. --Volcanopele 18:27, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, he does. Please report him. Kyaa the Catlord 18:35, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

Submitted as evidence that in previous articles other instances of the same deity have been referred to under the naming header: 90482_Orcus Kyaa the Catlord 17:36, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for bringing that up. From my reading of the Orcus article, Hades shouldn't really be mentioned (unless the namer referenced Hades in their naming citation). I will see if that can be fixed. --Volcanopele 17:41, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

Ha ha, RandomCritic. Editing the article as suggested would seem to violate WP:POINT. Engaging us in a discussion about a violation of WP:POINT would seem to waste everybody's time. --Dhartung | Talk 17:43, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

I am not Volcanopele. The Orcus article is poorly worded, but the facts are not disputable: 90482 Orcus is named after the Roman deity, and not after any other Orcus. Should it perhaps be emended to state that "Orcus is also the name of an important demon prince in the role-playing game Dungeons & Dragons"? RandomCritic 18:02, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

Please quit gaming the system. Kyaa the Catlord 18:05, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

Are you suggesting that discordianism can be referenced while D&D cannot? Do you have a prejudice against the D&D belief system? This would seem to be pushing POV. RandomCritic 18:12, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

Thank you for trolling. When you're ready to discuss this seriously, please do so. Kyaa the Catlord 18:15, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

Discuss this seriously? What are you, a closet Greyface? No, I can see you're not, since you "seriously" suggested that a mention of the wedding of Peleus and Thetis was a proof that Brown and the nomenclature group named 136199 Eris after the discordian Eris.

My point is that if we are to include mentions of discordian views of Eris because discordianism is popular and some discordians feel very strongly about Eris, then we must logically include other popular and cultural mentions of Eris that people might feel strongly about -- or, in the case of other named objects, such as Orcus, include extraneous cultural mentions just to avoid the POV of sticking to the facts and avoiding irrelevant trivia. As things are, you seem to be arguing that discordianism is in a privileged position vis-a-vis other cultural references because "it's a religion". But you continually fail to explain why "it's a religion" is relevant to astronomical nomenclature. RandomCritic 18:25, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

sigh I'm not biting. Jupiter, Pluto, the diff of Orcus I linked to earlier all support that these names come from the names of gods, goddesses and demons in religions. Simply aknowledging that Eris is the goddess of both the Greek era and the Discordians would follow this precedent. Kyaa the Catlord 18:44, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

This is already acknowledged -- at Eris (mythology) where it's relevant. But it's not relevant to an article about an astronomical object which is named only after the Eris of Greek mythology, and not, so far as is known, after the Discordian Eris or the comic-book Eris or the Xena Eris or the anime Eris or any other of a myriad variations on the theme. Unless we want to include all of these, there's no reason to give discordians special privileges wrt this article.RandomCritic 18:49, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

I'm not asking for special priveleges. I'm asking for equal priveleges. Eris is the goddess of both religions. How many times do I need to say that? It should read "named after the Greek and Discordian goddess Eris", for Eris is both Greek and Discordian. Kyaa the Catlord 18:55, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

It is not named after a Discordian goddess, and to claim that it is would be a violation of WP:No original research. Melchoir 19:03, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

Its named after Eris. Eris is the Greek God and the one which was "Eris has been adopted as the matron deity of the modern Discordian religion". What part of that do you NOT UNDERSTAND? Kyaa the Catlord 19:09, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

What part of WP:NOR do you not understand? It's even got a helpful boxed summary. Melchoir 22:35, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

It can't be equal privilege when the discordian Eris is mentioned and all of the other versions of Eris are not. That implies that the discordian interpretation of Eris -- which, as Eris (mythology) makes clear, differs markedly from the classical interpretation -- is more worthy of comment than the DC Comics interpretation or the Xena interpretation. But there's no evidence that the astronomical nomenclature is drawing on any of these sources -- though going by what we know of Dr. Brown, the Discord of Xena would seem to be a more likely source than the discordian Eris. However, that's speculation -- just like the mention of discordianism.RandomCritic 19:05, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

From your link: "Eris has been adopted as the matron deity of the modern Discordian religion". Period. End of story. Since Eris is the Goddess of both the Greeks and the Discordians, the object named Eris was named after her. Kyaa the Catlord 19:09, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

No, not end of story. Just because the Discordians have adopted the Greek goddess as their deity has no baring on what this dwarf planet was named after. The point being, the discovery group only cited Greek mythology as their source for the name Eris. No reference to any other use of Eris was made. Whether discordians believe that their goddess is the same as the Greek deity, is irrelevent to this discussion. --Volcanopele 19:14, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

Was the planet named after the Greek goddess Eris? Yes. Is the greek goddess Eris the discordian goddess Eris? Yes. Therefore the planet was named after the Greek and Discordian goddess Eris. Period. You're reading into the sentance that the planet was named principally after the Discordian goddess Eris, not that the Discordian Goddess Eris and the Greek goddess Eris are the same goddess. This is your misunderstanding. Kyaa the Catlord 19:18, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

Then, if I create a religion today, worshiping Jupiter, should that also be included as to the naming convention of the planet? Of course not! Even if it is the "same" Jupiter, it really doesn't matter. Tuvas 23:36, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

No, you wouldn't. Your Jupiter cult would not meet the criteria to be notable on Wikipedia. Strangely enough Discordianism DOES this. That is the root difference and the fault in your logic. Kyaa the Catlord 23:38, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

We have reliable sources that say the rock was named after the Greek goddess. There are possibly other sources that claim that the Greek goddess and the Discordian goddess are logically equivalent, but this claim is disputed. The two claims cannot be combined because WP:NOR forbids such a synthesis. If there is no reliable source that mentions Discordianism and 136199 in the same breath, we aren't going to be the first. Melchoir 19:28, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

Protection

I've protected the article until the dispute is settled on the talk page. Gamaliel 16:52, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

The nutshell

Eris was Greek goddess. Eris is both the Greek Goddess AND the Discordian goddess. The Greek Goddess is the Discordian goddess, but Discordianism is not the Greek religion. Therefore, Eris was named after the Greek and Discordian Goddess, but not after the Discordian goddess alone. The statement "numeral Eris was named after the Greek and Discordian goddess Eris" does not claim that the "numeral Eris was named after the Discordian goddess Eris", it simply aknowledges that the Greek goddess Eris is the Discordian goddess Eris. Maybe it would be easier to understand if we noted that the "numeral Eris was named after the Greek goddess Eris who has been subsequently adopted by the Discordians." (Ok, that even makes MY head hurt. I'll return to this discussion later.) Kyaa the Catlord 19:16, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

The nutshell is that you have lots of arguments but no sources. Melchoir 19:29, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

Eris is the goddess of discordia. [5]

The original snub, as referenced by Michael Brown above: [6]

Michael Brown made no reference to "original snub". Michael Brown referred to a classical Greek myth that is well known to all educated people. It is in no sense owned by the discordians. This is a poor argument.RandomCritic 20:31, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

Discordians claim that Eris is the same Eris that was feared by the Greeks, see discordianism.

Therefore Eris is the goddess both of the greeks and the discordians.

Have you become enlightened? Kyaa the Catlord 20:17, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

How about this:

Mike Brown has anything to say about Discordia.^{[citation needed]}

The IAU has anything to say about Discordia.^{[citation needed]}

Discordia is logically connected or otherwise relevant to the subject of this article.^{[citation needed]}

Discordians claim something about the subject of this article.^{[citation needed]}

Well? Melchoir 21:48, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

I don't believe that the retroactive conversion of a mythical spirit of disharmony in a 2700-year-old Greek story into the central goddess of a 40- or 50-year old religion makes it mandatory to refer to the new religion every time one talks about the old myth. If I started a religion today called Venerianism in which Aphrodite was the central goddess, should all of Wikipedia rush to change the wording "The Greek goddess Aphrodite" to "The Greek and Venerian goddess Aphrodite"? I don't think so. RandomCritic 19:35, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

So basically your problem is that they're "mythical". Fine. Please take your POV elsewhere. Your personal beliefs should have been left at the door. Kyaa the Catlord 20:07, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

My "problem" is that I believe Wikipedia articles should be factual and should not be burdened with useless trivia that has no function except as propaganda for an ideology. These are not "personal beliefs" but common standards for good editorship. I make no claims (and have no opinion) about whether a goddess called "Eris" exists or not, because it is very much irrelevant to the question of whether discordianism should be mentioned in this article. It is evident, however, that the spirit of discord is very much present, and we could use a lot less of it and a bit more concord. One way to do this is to stop throwing around accusations of bias, which are a bit odd coming from someone who was insisting on AGF just a few screens up.RandomCritic 20:31, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

The policy here is to have a neutral point of view, not no point of view. As for "bias", there is a bias in going either way here. As for User:Kyaa the Catlord's statement that our "personal beliefs should have been left at the door": That is a real joke as I don't see Kyaa leaving his/her own beliefs "at the door" in this disucussion at all. My own rule of thumb is that if you have a personal stake in a given position, you should not be working on related articles here. I don't believe in black holes, and so I don't edit articles about them. I do edit articles about general relativity, but I stick tightly to Einstein's theory since otherwise I risk bringing in my own personal opinions and orignal research in that area.

Kyaa is obviously a fanatical follower of Discordianism, and so should have nothing to do with any edits involving it. --EMS | Talk 22:27, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

Obviously I'm a discordianist. Burn me at the stake. I've proposed reasonable compromises, but apparently noone is interested. Kyaa the Catlord 22:30, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

I totally agree that the inspiration for the name was the Greek goddess Eris, and that any reference to this modern "Discordian" religion is totally inapprorpiate. This article is about a celestial body, not the mythological goddess. Eris (mythology) is the place for a detaled discussion of the goddess. That is where the references to Discodrianism can be found. That is where they belong. Wikipeidia is not a soapbox. --EMS | Talk 22:09, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

The source of the name is very relevant, as is a brief explanation of who she is. Kyaa the Catlord 22:17, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

I have never heard of Discordianism before this, and doubt that any other editors have either. As best I can tell it's membership and following are entirely miniscule. Wikipedia is not an indiscriminate collector of information. I fail to see any need to make a direct connection between 136199 Eris and Discordianism because of the insignificance of Discordianism. --EMS | Talk 22:41, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

It is so insignificant that it caused this article to become protected in less than 24 hours. Not just semi-protected, full on protected. The topic at hand is reaching a compromise so that this article can become unprotected and work can continue on it. If you, and others, are unwilling do compromise, this article will continue to flounder. Kyaa the Catlord 22:53, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

It seems to me that the points that are not in dispute are equally 'problematic.' If mentioning Discordianism is an irrelevant fact to the naming, is not the mention that the goddess is the 'personification of strife and discord' irrelevant? Isn't the fact that the goddess is Greek irrelevant? I agree that they should remain as they are intrinsic qualities of the Eris for whom the planetoid is named. Likewise, however, is the fact that this same Eris is inextricably linked to the deity of the same name in Discordianism, due to a shared mythology and deity-ness. Hence I propose an alternate compromise: "136199 Eris is named after the Greek goddess Eris (Ἔρις in Greek), a personification of strife and discord and primary deity of the modern religion Discordianism," --Pipian 22:13, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

The above is acceptable. It does not read as clunky as the current version also. Kyaa the Catlord 22:16, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

Please read Mike Brown's rationale for the naming. He explicitly cites the characteristics of the Greek goddess. Explicitly. There's no judgement on what's "intrinsic" or not. Melchoir 22:17, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

Yes, the same goddess worshipped by the Discordians. Kyaa the Catlord 22:18, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

But the characteristics are irrelevant for the purposes of naming the planetoid, no? The characteristics are ONLY relevant to the goddes. Indeed, in the article, this fact is in a completely separate sentence. Or are you proposing that the planetoid itself is a personification of strife and discord (given this inane debate, I'd say you'd actually have a compelling argument if you are) --Pipian 22:21, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

Kyaa the Catlord, you're bringing rhetoric to a source fight. There is exactly one way to establish relevance, and that's to find a reliable source that talks about Discordia in the context of this article's topic. Why don't you focus on looking for one? Melchoir 22:34, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

I've already shown that the goddess Eris is both the goddess from Greek mythology and from Discordianism. This is entirely relevant to the dispute at hand and is inarguably factual. You do not even try to argue on this point, rather you game at it and avoid the topic at hand by attempting to smokescreen the issue. Kyaa the Catlord 22:38, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

I have to agree with this. It would be one thing if the second reference of Eris was irrelevant in so far as it had no serious relation to the Greek goddess. In contrast, however, the relationship between the Discordian deity and the Greek one is more complex as the Discordian belief focuses on the premise given by the Greek myth and builds upon it (In this sense, the Discordian deity is most definately the Greek one, and there is little evidence to DISPROVE the opposite (though there's also little evidence to prove it)). Furthermore, Discordianism is a significant force in certain subcultures, leading to its garnering over 208,000 Google hits under the term Discordianism, as well as having enough notoriety to have a Wikipedia article. Therefore there is a distinct logic to adding the relationship to the Greek goddess as the support for the concept of Eris in Discordianism is clearly not a case of Six Bored Teenagers. Adding the phrase "And also the primary deity of the modern religion of Discordianism" does nothing to destroy the relevance of being the 'personification of strife and discord' relevant to the article through the analogy drawn by the astronomical debate as both the Greek and Discordian aspects of Eris BOTH focus on that fact as a real and focalpoint of their purpose. --Pipian 22:58, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

I would necessarily have a probably with mentioning the Discordian incarnation, as long as it is made clear that the discoverers intended to name the dwarf planet after the Greek aspect, and in now way referenced the Discordian aspect. To say that is Eris was named after the Greek and Discordian goddess is NOT factual and we should not claim as such. --Volcanopele 23:06, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

If you named it after the Greek goddess, you named it after the Discordian one. How many times do I have to repeat that? Kyaa the Catlord 23:09, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

They did not name it after the discordian goddess. Brown et al. named it after the Greek goddess, only. Please stick with the facts. Repeating POV and irrelevent information doesn't solve anything. --Volcanopele 23:26, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

I sound like a broken record. The fact is that Eris of the Greeks is Eris of the Discordians. If you named it after the Greek Goddess, you named it after the Discordian one. Kyaa the Catlord 23:32, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

Well, the Brown et al. group apparently managed to name it after the Greek goddess, but not the Discordian one. --Volcanopele 00:10, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

This is why I proposed my solution which mentions the relation to Discordianism SECOND as an attribute of the Greek goddess, and does not explicitly call her a Discordian goddess at all (merely saying that she is the deity of Discordianism. --Pipian 23:16, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

Incidentally, it is worth noting that the Portuguese translation of this article does not have this issue and does not mention the Discordian aspect of Eris, but to be fair, it also does not mention the Discordian aspect of the goddess in the page explicitly about the mythological deity. Indeed, Discordianism appears to be a uniquely English-based cultural artifact, so I think that any appeals to the fact that the Portuguese article does not reference Discordianism are potentially invalidated by its lack of referencing Discordianism as related to Eris at all. --Pipian 22:25, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

Crux of this issue

The crux of this issue is not whether Eris is the goddess of Discordianism, but rather whether it is appropriate to mention Discordianism at all. From the religious movements page on Discordianism, "the size of this group is hard to ascertain". Large, stable groups do not have this problem.

I submit the proposition that the mention of Discordianiam in this page violates WP:NPOV#Undue weight due to the uncertain but almost certainly miniscule nature of its membership. I therefore propose that all mention of Discordianism be permanently removed from this article, ~~and call for a survey on this proposal.~~ --EMS | Talk 23:07, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

Never mind - There is a now a functioning poll below. --EMS | Talk 00:52, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

Support

~~As stated above. --EMS | Talk 23:07, 15 September 2006 (UTC)~~

Oppose

Discussion

Nice try. Please read WP:POINT. This sort of game is going to get you nowhere. Kyaa the Catlord 23:10, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

Agreed. The size being hard to measure is irrelevant due to the nature of Discordianism being decentralized. As mentioned before, however, there are over 200,000 results found for 'Discordianism' on Google, and almost 550,000 for 'Discordian'. If Discordianism is not encyclopedia-worthy as you claim, start with removing the page on Discordianism and come back here when you succeed. --Pipian 23:16, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

While I agree references to Discordianism should be removed (or only included with a statement that Eris was not named after the Discordian aspect is added), I don't agree with the reason stated in the proposal. The size of a religious group doesn't have a standing in this. The fact that there is no evidence that Brown et al. named Eris after not just the Greek goddess, but also a discordian aspect of that goddess, IMHO, has more weight. --Volcanopele 23:23, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

It doesn't matter if the Discordians worship Eris. If they worship the Greek Goddess Eris, that is their prerogative. It has nothing to do with the naming of the dwarf planet. I am sure there are other religions (or cults, whatver you prefer to call them) that worship Jupiter. Or Mars. Or Neptune. That doesn't mean they need to be mentioned in an article about the planet named after the god or goddess. THe origin of Eris is Greek Mythology - the Discordians did not make her up, they adopted her. It even says in the article on Discordians "The matron deity of Discordianism is Eris, the ancient Greek goddess of discord,". I don't care if the religion is large or small, or how many members it has. They adopted an established deity, and deserve no more mention than any other group that adopts a deity that is already established. Any mention of groups that also worship the goddess should be under the mythological entry, not the astronomical entry. --Exodio 02:02, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

Delisted GA

This article is not stable. It is in a protected state. Kyaa the Catlord 22:14, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

Proposal

I suggest that the language at the beginning of the Name section which currently reads:

136199 Eris is named after the Greek goddess Eris (Ἔρις in Greek), a personification of strife and discord. The contemporary religion of Discordianism also worships this goddess.

Be amended to read as follows:

According to the U.S. Geological Survey's Gazetteer of Planetary Nomenclature, 136199 Eris was named for "the Greek goddess of chaos and strife; she created a quarrel among goddesses that led to the Trojan War. This name could be considered quite fitting for the body that has fueled the debate concerning how to define a planet."[7]. Michael Brown, the discoverer of Eris, further explains:

In Greek, the name of the goddess is Ἔρις.

RandomCritic 22:25, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

This seems needlessly detailed and unnecessary and fails to resolve the issue at hand. --Pipian 22:27, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

I have a better suggestion: Remove the second sentence entirely. --EMS | Talk 22:32, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

Either suggestion is fine. I prefer more detail, because it's an encyclopedia article, although the quote needs condensing. Melchoir 22:37, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

The detail seems unwarranted. Just provide the source mentioning that fact after 'The name in part reflects the discord in the astronomy community caused by the debate over the object's nature.' --Pipian 22:45, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

This does nothing to solve the problem which has caused the article to become protected. It simply ignores it and begs to be replaced by something else. Kyaa the Catlord 23:07, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

I support this proposal, though the quote could use some tightening. Rather than adding irrelevant and POV information, it only references what the Brown group intended to name this dwarf planet after. If need be, to end this, you add "Eris is also revered in the Discordian faith, but there is no evidence that Brown et al. refer to that aspect of the goddess Eris", or something to that effect. --Volcanopele 23:13, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

This is not an article about the goddess Eris, rather, it is about the dwarf planet. The Dwarf planet was named after the Greek God. If I create a religion today that worships Eris, it should have no more mention in this article than the Draconians. Now, I do fully agree that it IS appropriate to talk about this in the article about the goddess Eris, but not in this entry... The only reason to mention the fact that Eris is a greek god is the very fact that it was the reason for giving it it's name. Thus, I agree that it should be removed, and stick only to the facts. Tuvas 23:14, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

Again, the article already contains this information with the phrase 'The name in part reflects the discord in the astronomy community caused by the debate over the object's nature.' Expand that rather than changing the initial paragraph to prove your WP:POINT. --Pipian 23:19, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

The Arguments Thus Far...

So far as I can tell, here are the two arguments:

For

The Greek goddess of discord, Eris, is the same as the Discordian goddess of the same name due to shared mythology. Hence, as this is a fundamental aspect of Eris, there should be no issue in adding something to that effect in the article.
Discordianism is large enough to warrant mention, rather than being ignored in the context of the article.
Adding this fact is NPOV as both the Greek and Discordian goddesses are one and the same.
This fact does not irreparably harm the article, as there is relevance in so far as the Discordian goddess and Greek goddess both have 'personification of strife and discord' as a primary aspect of their description.
Brown refers to a myth that plays a strong focal point for both the Greek and Discordian mythos, and hence, it is not irrelevant to mention Discordianism in this context.

Against

The Eris of Discordianism is NOT the same as that of the Greek goddess which Brown explicitly cites.
Discordianism is insignificant and does not garner enough attention to justify mention.
Adding this fact is POV as it unfairly promotes Discordianism.
This fact harms the article as it is irrelevant to the reasoning for the name.
Brown only mentions the myth in the context of the Greek goddess and does not explicitly mention Discordianism OR 'The Original Snub'

--Pipian 23:10, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

Also For is the fact that if we add it, the activities by those who keep adding it and contributing to the sort of edit wars we saw today will be lessened. It won't go away, Erisian Discordia lives to... um... play pranks. Kyaa the Catlord 23:16, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

I don't think this is a good summation of the arguments against. First, I do agree that Discordians believe that their Eris is the same as the Greek goddess. However, Brown et al. only state that Eris, the dwarf planet, is named after the Greek goddess, and not the Discordian aspect. To say that "Eris is named after the Greek and Discordian goddess" is not correct. It wasn't. Eris is named after the Greek goddess. It is irrelevent in this regard whether Discordian believe that their Eris is the same Eris. --Volcanopele 23:18, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

AgainstI would also add that planets, and other large objects have traditionally been named for ancient greek and roman mythology, and not modern occurances. Tuvas 23:19, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

Both of these arguments seem only germaine to the now not-present phrase 'Greek and Discordian goddess'. Please read more of the discussion above to see some of the completely ignored compromises that ignore these arguments (at least in so far as they do not give equal rights to Greek and Discordian.) --Pipian 23:22, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

The only against argument I need is that there is no source that establishes relevance in this context, so including it violates WP:NOR. We are a serious teriary reference, and we have content policies specifically to deal with these disputes. Melchoir 23:40, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

Straw Poll

(Changed from Vote to Straw Poll, Wikipedia works to consensus. :) ) Electrawn 02:02, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

In an effort to try and simplify the topics, and not just have people repeating 3 or 4 threads the same things, let's just take a vote on the issue as to weither or not to include the draconian reference. A vote for support is supporting the inclusion of the religion, an oppose is against it. Tuvas 23:30, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

Once again, not a vote, a straw poll. Electrawn 02:02, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

Support

Support - While this is an article about the planet, if the mention of the intrinsic Discordian aspect of Eris is made secondary to the Greek rationale proposed by Brown, then there appears to be no issue with POV, and the phrase should, logically, be allowed to stay (c.f. My proposal for a compromise: "136199 Eris is named after the Greek goddess Eris (Ἔρις in Greek), a personification of strife and discord and primary deity of the modern religion Discordianism.") --Pipian 23:41, 15 September 2006 (UTC)
Support This is exactly the compromise I keep speaking of and the one best suited to keep the article from erupting back into the edit wars. Kyaa the Catlord 23:44, 15 September 2006 (UTC)
Support It was named after the goddess, the goddess is correctly described as both Greek and Discordian, she isn't one or the other she is both, if belief in Eris had spread beyond Greece into Roman belief and she was worshipped by both the Greeks and the Romans under the same name we wouldn't describe her as solely Greek even if her origins lay there, we'd describe her as a Greco-Roman goddess. Belief in her has spread so that it is no longer accurate to describe her as solely a Greek goddess. It isn't about saying who the dwarf planet was named after, we agree it was Eris, it is about the correct description being used for Eris.Number36 00:12, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

Oppose

Oppose This is an article about the planet, not the goddess. The planet was named after the Greek Goddess and had nothing to do with the modern religion. Tuvas 23:32, 15 September 2006 (UTC)
Oppose The reference to dischordianism is trivial and off-topic. shaggy 23:39, 15 September 2006 (UTC)
Oppose: The Brown et al. explanation of the choice of Eris for the name of this dwarf planet only references the Greek goddess aspect of the name. Referencing modern usages that, based on current evidence, were not considered during by 136199 Eris' discoverers, would not be relevent to this article. --Volcanopele 23:45, 15 September 2006 (UTC)
Strongly oppose for the reasons given above. --EMS | Talk 00:23, 16 September 2006 (UTC)
Oppose per all arguments above. RandomCritic 00:51, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

Comment

Another attempt to game the system. Please review WP:POINT. These pointless polls will not resolve the fact that if we do not come to some sort of compromise, the edit war will continue. Kyaa the Catlord 23:34, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

At least one thing will come out of this, we will have something clear and coincise, and we will be able to see how many people are in support of it each way. Otherwise, all I see is alot of bickering going on. All that will happen is we will fight until we all get old about the topic. If most people support including it, then I will swallow my pride and support including the reference. There will always be people who aren't happy, it's a fact of life. However, I don't see any way to compromise, either you include the reference, or you don't. Personally, I think it's best mentioned on the Eris (mythology) page, and not here, but I'd like to see everyone's argument down to their one or two sentance reason why they support their position. Tuvas 23:42, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

Tuvas has largely it the nail on the head. I for one am very strongly against the mention of Discordianism here, but am willing to back off of that view and agree to a compromise if there is not a strong consensus (meaning at least 2-1 in favor) favoring that view. A significant minority amongst us favoring its inclusion means that my being dogmatic on this issue is not good for Wikipedia, and I will respect that. --EMS | Talk 00:22, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

Cant we just leave it at the compromise it currently is, yesterday the way it was worded was attracting many vandals, and the sentence i added kept them at bay, while stating that it was named after the Greek goddess alone. -- Nbound 23:39, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

I'd like to see it written in a better way, since the current compromise is good, but will not meet our needs for GA/FA. There's one based off it on this page that read better. And you're precisely correct, as soon as Discordianism was removed from the main article, the edit war reinvigorated. Kyaa the Catlord 23:43, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

We are trying to find a compromise position here. This is not an attempt to game the system, or make a WP:POINT. This is a method of conflict resolution intended to end this edit war. I have offered one compromise, and several others have offered compromises as well, but they seem to have been shot down. I am afraid this may have to go to some kind of arbitration. I am almost at the point of just accepting the way it is worded now, as long as it is clear that 136199 was only named after the Greek aspect. Otherwise, it would be POV. --Volcanopele 23:45, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

I do agree, if we can't come up wit::h a reasonable solution within the next day or so, we're probably going to have to request it to be arbitrated... Wow, never thought I'd get myself into one of those...Tuvas 23:49, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

Arbitrate with who? Me? I'm not the one edit warring, I'm simply playing devils advocate. Kyaa the Catlord 23:54, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

I'm not touching that one with a ten-foot pole. Regardless, I'm willing to compromise to something similar to the current wording, as long as it makes clear that the Brown et al. group only intended to name this dwarf planet after the Greek goddess, and made no mention of the Discordian aspect. While I'm not happy with including any reference to the discordian aspect, for relevency and WP:NOR reasons, I'd rather find something to end this. --Volcanopele 00:07, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

This one?

"Eris is also revered in the Discordian faith, but there is no evidence that Brown et al. refer to that aspect of the goddess Eris"

Im in favour of that too.. -- Nbound 23:48, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

I support this compromise. --Volcanopele 23:52, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

Stilted, and in such a way, it could raise MORE, rather than LESS relevancy issues in the future. All the same, if the Opposes are willing to compromise on this phrasing, I'm quite willing to as well. --Pipian 23:55, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

Also remove the poll, there is more than two sides to the debate. -- Nbound

Agreed. Some people still seem to think that this is all about 'The Greek and Discordian goddess' even though that phrase is long-gone. As others have pointed out, some who are staunchly against ANY mention of Discordianism are making this a larger problem than it really ought to be. Others against merely the thought that it MIGHT be interpreted as being named for the Discordian goddess first and Greek goddess second. --Pipian 23:53, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

I simply think that if it was named after the Greek godess, that's all the article should say about it. That the Greek goddess is also worshipped in a modern religion is trivial and honestly, adds nothing to an article about a dwarf planet. shaggy 23:55, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

The problem is that not including that "trivial" modern religion is spawning edit wars and caused the page to become full protected. A compromise from the hardline "do not include" position is required. Kyaa the Catlord 23:57, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

Simply put, this isn't the place for this information. The article about the godess Eris is. Things here will calm down as soon as the link from the main page is gone, I'm sure. Consistent low-level vandalism is nothing new on wikipedia, but there are enough people watching this article to ensure things stay under control. As far as including it just to prevent vandalism? That would set a terrible precedent... shaggy 00:04, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

Low-level? The majority of edits today were related to this "vandalism", which it isn't. There is precedent for referring to alternative gods and faiths when discussing the origin of the name of a planetary body. Kyaa the Catlord 00:12, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

How about, instead of referring to her as Greek or to Discordianism, we simply say 'named after the Goddess Eris', and provide a link to Eris (Mythology)?Number36 00:20, 16 September 2006 (UTC):

And have that passage read: "136199 Eris is named after the goddess Eris (mythology), a personification of strife and discord." With a reference to Mike Brown's Eris site as well. hmm, interesting... I could go along with this if other will. --Volcanopele 00:22, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

FYI, we're actually doing the right thing with this survey, see WP:DR. Conducting a survey is exactly the intent. Granted, it says wait for a week, but we really have a week's worth of posts in just one day. If this doesn't work, then we request Mediation. Final step is to request Arbitration, in which we ask a group of appointed Wikipedians to tell us who is right. I will also agree that those who are opposed are really opposed, they don't want to see any mention of the Draconians. I totally agree with Number36, leave more info about Eris the godess on her page. Tuvas 00:23, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

This would leave the issue unresolved and again, not stop the edit war from occuring in the future. We should find a happy medium that leaves all sides less likely to engage in warfare instead of ignoring the root cause of the issue, which is that the Discordians want their goddess aknowledged, the hardliners don't, and everyone else is caught in the middle. Kyaa the Catlord 00:27, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

I don't see a need for mediation or arbitration here. We first need to resolve the issue of whether the reference stays or goes, and the survey will do that. As I mentioned above, if there is not a strong consensus against including Discordianism present at the end of it, then a compromise can be hammered out in good faith. Otherwise, it is good riddance to this business. --EMS | Talk 00:29, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

So, you would not support the language I posted and Number36 suggested? Listen, I understand that Discordians want their goddess recognized, but if their is no evidence to support it, I am afraid that it really is nothing more than WP:POV. Personally, I like this compromise language, mentioning neither Greek nor Discordian, is not so bad. --Volcanopele 00:32, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

I see no problem with such a compromise. It leaves the decision and complexity of the goddess for the reader to decide. --Pipian 00:36, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

I don't feel it will resolve the issue, but I won't stand in the way. Kyaa the Catlord 00:38, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

I think it does acknowledge the Discordian Goddess Vyaa, -Eris, my main problem is the sole inclusion of the attribute Greek denies by exclusion the Discordian aspect. If we leave both out, but include the link to the mythology page where both are included in some detail, then I think we are equally acknowledging both with the link.Number36 00:41, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

I hadn't considered that...I may have to think about this some more. --Volcanopele 00:46, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

It certainly does get around the issue in an interesting fashion. Yes. I can easily support that language as it does not mention Discordianism. Instead it leaves it on the Eris (mythology) page, and I am happy to let the editors of that page deal with the issue instead. Indeed, if Kyaa is willing to live with it, then this may be an ideal solution. --EMS | Talk 00:48, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

After reading the Eris (mythology) article, as it stands now, I can support this. --Volcanopele 00:53, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

Let me also add my favor to omitting any reference of Greek or Discordian. I would be happy with such a change.Tuvas 00:52, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

I'm really not your enemy here. I just question whether this will... solve the problem with the edit warring. Kyaa the Catlord 00:58, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

Hopefully it will. We can spell out the decision in a seperate section below. If it doesn't, then we may have to go into mediation. The point is to at least try to solve it. And I think this will. --Volcanopele 01:02, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

& I'm not really at odds with you Vyaa, indeed on the whole I side more with you on this I think, but I do think that this is the best compromise for both sides. And there's only one way to find out if it'll stop the edit warring. And yeah a new section to discuss this would be good, this is getting a bit unwieldy.Number36 01:07, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

I have no big problem with leaving out the word "Greek". In fact, by the time it gets down to the astronomers we are no longer talking about "Greek" anything but the name itself, but a sort of muddled handbook mythology which mixes elements from different cultures and centuries. Which is why I mentioned above that we are really drawing on a sort of generic, literary classical mythology, and not Greek religion per se. We still need to include (somewhere) "in Greek, Ἔρις". However, it seems to be a misstatement of fact to consider this as a question of "Greek vs. Discordian". It is not a two-sided affair. The Eris of classical mythology belongs to everyone, now -- not to the dead Greeks of long ago, not to neopagans, not to discordians. A vast number of writers and poets have a piece of her. The astronomical application is one aspect of this central, mythological theme which is public property. The discordians have their own distinct application, as do the writers of various types of fiction.RandomCritic 01:08, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

Well, I'm going to take a guess that we've got something that at least most of us will be happy about. I vote we remove the page protection, and stick with this solution, and see how it holds. I've put forth a request to remove the protection (This page is listed on the main page, it's not supposed to be protected any longer than it has to), and we can make this change and see how it holds up. Tuvas 01:14, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

Can we please stop calling the Discordians "Draconians"? :P They're not mutated dragons from Krynn. Kyaa the Catlord 00:34, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

Sorry about that, my fault... I knew I was misspelling it... Tuvas 00:46, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

nervous twitching

I just emailed Professor Brown and asked him for his input. Kyaa the Catlord 00:56, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

New proposal

Taking on board the critiques and suggestions above, how about this for the beginning of the Name section:

136199 Eris is named after the goddess Eris (Greek Ἔρις"), a personification of strife and discord. [9].

RandomCritic 01:13, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

I'm cool. Kyaa the Catlord 01:14, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

Yep thats a great way around it *two thumbs up* -- Nbound 01:15, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

Well I agree, which shouldn't come as any great surprise since I suggested it in the first place:)Number36 01:16, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

Why did there have to be all this drama, I wonder quietly to myself... I'm not 100% satisfied with it, but it works. shaggy 01:26, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

Seems fine to me --Pipian 01:38, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

Is there any specific reason we're giving the Greek spelling though? I mean is it relevant to the naming of the dwarf planet? Is Greek especially important in astronomy?Number36 01:19, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

It's a greek word. shaggy 01:23, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

Greek is way cool. Kyaa the Catlord 01:25, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

Fair enough, convinced me.Number36 01:27, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

Pie!

I'm impressed with the progress that you've all made in such a short time. I think unprotection is in order. Gamaliel 01:41, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

Pie for all! (I've been way too serious today) Kyaa the Catlord 01:44, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

Unless anyone has serious reservations with this proposal, I think it should be added to the page... -- Nbound 01:45, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

Hooray :) I made a difference. I would also like to strongly second the call for pie.Number36 01:49, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

Page changed. Probably could use a change to the proper footnote system, but that's a secondary issue at this point. Now where's that pie? ;) --Volcanopele 01:55, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

Will apple do? Gamaliel 01:56, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

Australian Meat Pie with Tomato Sauce

If not ive included a delicious alternative! :P -- Nbound 02:00, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

Everything is better with meat! Kyaa the Catlord 02:02, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

I just love you guys so much right now, I mean can ya feel the love?? can ya??? (I mean that in a purely platonic way of course) Pie is the great healer, mender of rifts and unifier of mankind. It is truly the food of the Gods, both Greek, Discordian and Other.Number36 02:05, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

Late comment

I know this explosion seems to be over, and I'm glad it was resolved intelligently, but I wanted to note that I'm a Discordian and I see no reason to mention Discordianism in this article. The planet was almost certainly named after Eris as a Greek goddess, and Discordianism played no part in the process. Just didn't want people to think Discordians were of one mind on this issue. DenisMoskowitz 15:17, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

Categories: Talk archives

Talk:136199 Eris/Archive 2

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Contents

Discordianism and 136199

Name and NPOV

Protection

The nutshell

Crux of this issue

Support

Oppose

Discussion

Delisted GA

Proposal

The Arguments Thus Far...

Straw Poll

Support

Oppose

Comment

nervous twitching

New proposal

Archive

Late comment

Views

Navigation

Interaction

Search

Talk:136199 Eris/Archive 2

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Contents

Discordianism and 136199

Name and NPOV

Protection

The nutshell

Crux of this issue

Support

Oppose

Discussion

Delisted GA

Proposal

The Arguments Thus Far...

Straw Poll

Support

Oppose

Comment

*nervous twitching*

New proposal

Archive

Late comment

Views

Navigation

Interaction

Search

nervous twitching