User talk:130.88.188.14

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[edit] Titles

(Cross-posted from my talk page)

A hereditary title can go to any son - right? So if say, The Duke of London & Islington (made up title as an example!) was newly created with Letters patent for the Dukedom of London to go to the eldest son and the second dukedom of Islington to go to the second son... the 1st duke's duchess is The Duchess of London and Islington, right? So if the Duke of London & Islington dies and his sons become The Duke of London & The Duke of Islington respectively, and their wives become the Duchess of London and The Duchess of Islington respectively, DOES the wife of the 1st Duke stay "The Duchess of London & Islington" or become The Dowager Duchess of London & Islington, or e.g. Sarah, Duchess of London & Islington?

It'd be a very unusual situation, as in the vast, vast majority of cases all titles go to the eldest son, but in the case you lay out I'd imagine the 1st Duke's widow would become either "The Dowager Duchess of London and Islington" or "Sarah, Duchess of London and Islington" (the choice, as with all widows of peers, would be hers, and down to which form she preferred). The reason I'd say this is that Dukes and Duchesses with more than one title are generally known only by the first in informal situations (so the Duke of Buccleuch and Queensberry is generally just called "the Duke of Buccleuch"), and so if she kept her former style both her and her eldest son's wife would be known generally as "the Duchess of London", which wouldn't really be acceptable.

If the situation were to happen as above, except the dukedom were to go to the second and third sons, does this mean the eldest son does not get a courtesy earldom as he would if he were the heir?

Indeed it would. Courtesy peerages are only held by heirs apparent, and it's just coincidence that eldest sons are almost always the heir apparent and so have courtesy peerages. The eldest son in this case would be "Lord John Smith". Likewise, if the titles were as such in your first example, both eldest and second sons would have courtesy peerages (the eldest getting the highest peerage other than the Dukedom of London coming to him and the second getting the highest peerage other than the Dukedom of Islington coming to him). A real-life example of this is found with the sons of the 3rd Marquess of Londonderry: Londonderry was created Earl Vane and Viscount Seaham with remainder to his heirs male by his second wife (his first son was his only son by his first wife). Before Londonderry's death his eldest son was known as Viscount Castlereagh as heir apparent to the Marquessate whilst his second son was known as Viscount Seaham as heir apparent to the Earldom.

When a Duke is listed in Burke's peerage, he has all his titles listed, right? E.g. Duke of Devonshire, Marquess of Hartington, Earl of Burlington, Baron Cavendish..... so what are the Duke's heirs known by if their courtesy titles are taken?

Well they're not "taken", as such, as they're never used to describe the actual peer except in peerage reference works. The actual peer continues to hold all his peerages, and the courtesy peers merely use them as if they held them (they might almost be called "spare peerages" that the peer doesn't need and so lets his heirs pretend they hold them).

Is The Duchess of Cornwall also "The Princess Charles"? and is the countess of Wessex "The Princess Edward"? If so, why are they never referred to as such? Does this make them actual princesses? Surely a princess outranks other peerages?

Yes, they are, but they're never referred to as such because "Prince" and "Princess" are considered to be rather akin to courtesy titles: they're used by those with nothing else, but nowhere near as grand as even the lowest actual peerage (though higher, of course, than courtesy peerages). It's the same reason that members of the Royal Family are created peers — it's nice to be a Prince, obviously, but nothing beats holding a peerage.

Why is Prince Charles not known as "Earl of Merioneth" in his titles as the Duke of Edinburgh's son? Similarly, why is Prince William not Lord Greenwich?

Courtesy titles are really only there to give heirs something to call themselves that shows their status. As actual peers have actual titles, they don't need lesser courtesy peerages and so generally just ignore them.

Is it possible to have two different forms of the same designation in a title? E.g. Can there be a Duke of Shrewsbury at the same time as there being an Earl of Shrewsbury?

Yes, though usually only as a historical accident rather than through design. There is currently a Duke of Sutherland as well as a Countess of Sutherland (the two titles were once held by the same people, but have since separated because only one can descend through the female line), and there are various other examples, mainly of subsidiary titles.

Do the children of a younger son of a duke have a courtesy title? E.g. if Lord Charles so-an-so has children, do they get "The Honourable" prefx?

No, they're just ordinary untitled people.

Princess Alice, Duchess of Gloucester, was not in a position to be styled "Princess Alice" since she was not born royal. Why was she styled as such and was she in any way a princess by marriage or creation?

Well she was always "Princess Henry" as the wife of Prince Henry, Duke of Gloucester, so she was really a Princess all along. As to why she was "Princess Alice": when her husband died, she would in normal practice have become "HRH The Dowager Duchess of Gloucester". However, this didn't suit her very much, and so she asked if she could be "Princess Alice, Duchess of Gloucester" in the same way as her sister-in-law, Princess Marina, Duchess of Kent, who was styled as such because she was born a Princess (not of the UK). The Queen bent the rules and agreed, and so she was styled in that way.

Why does Prince Charles never use his earldoms or his barony? Or the Princedom of Scotland? (surely that's higher than the dukedom of Rothesay?)

Peers generally don't use their lesser titles themselves, so he's really only following standard practice with the Earldoms, but as regards the Princedom of Scotland I think our article on it probably explains more clearly than I could.

Why did Queen Mary not have a state crown made for her at the Delhi Durbar like George V?

Sorry, can't help you with this. The Queen-Empress Consorts don't seem to have had the same status as their husbands, however: the King-Emperors (and Queen-Empresses Regnant) signed "Name RI" ("Name King/Queen Emperor/Empress") but their wives only signed "Name R" ("Name Queen").

Why is the Earl of March, Darnley & Kinrara often only referred to as "The Earl of March and Kinrara"?

Because his father's generally called the Duke of Richmond and Gordon: the Scottish Dukedom is missed out and so they also miss out the Scottish courtesy Earldom.

If the heir of a peer holds a courtesy title of say, earl, to say he's not a peer means he's actually not an earl?

It depends in what sense: he's called "the Earl of Somewhere" so he's obviously nominally an Earl (he's not a Viscount or a Marquess, for instance), but he's not actually an Earl in the sense of "someone who holds an Earldom".

If the Queen cannot hold a peerage being the fount of honour, why is she referred to as The Duke of Lancaster? Similarly, isn't she by law Duchess of Edinburgh?

She's only referred to as Duke of Lancaster by tradition, rather than by law. And she is, technically, Duchess of Edinburgh, but of course a monarch would have no need to use such a title.

Was The Duchess of Windsor, while not being an HRH, not a Princess? if her husband was The Prince Edward, surely she was "Her Grace The Princess Edward, Duchess of Windsor"?

Most probably, though she wouldn't have been known as that, just as all Royal peeresses are just "HRH The Duchess of Camelot" rather than "HRH The Princess Lancelot, Duchess of Camelot".

Say the Duke of Bedford has an heir, the Marquess of Tavistock. Lord Tavistock has an heir, Lord Howland. Lord Howland has an heir... what is he called? The Duke has more than one barony to be used as a courtesy title - does Lord Howland's son just take another barony to become, say, Baron Russell, or does he go a rank below his father and become The Hon. Mr so-and-so?

He'd just be "The Hon. John Smith". Heirs of courtesy peers follow the same rules as heirs of actual peers: they can only have courtesy peerages if their fathers are courtesy Earls or Marquesses, not Viscounts or Barons, and they have to have a lower grade of peerage than their fathers.

Sorry there are so many questions here ... it would be great if you could help!

No problem, hope I've been of assistance. Proteus (Talk) 21:31, 26 April 2006 (UTC)
I agree with everything that Proteus has said though I'd add perhaps that sons of younger sons of peers do by a less formal tradition use EsquireAlci12 10:44, 27 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] May 2008

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