The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the proposal was retain the new title, 10 Hronia Mazi, per the discussion below. There seems to be a consensus, but please try to refrain from moving articles during active, listed discussions, as it offends some editors. Dekimasuよ! 06:44, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

The history needs to be moved. Planecrazy22 (talk) 01:40, 8 December 2007 (UTC)…

From WP:RM:

10 Xronia Mazi → 10 Chronia Mazi —(Discuss)— Someone created a new page for the album with the latin spelling translation of the album opposed to the Greek-lish translation. They cut and paste everything to the new page and put a redirect on the old page, but now all the history is gone. I request to move the history of 10 Xronia Mazi to 10 Chronia Mazi. Planecrazy22 (talk) 01:42, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

A history merge would work reasonably well, as the edit histories don't overlap very much (one edit in each case). But are you sure that the latin spelling is the better one? We should decide that, too. Andrewa (talk) 12:49, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

Well the X in the Greek language is pronounced sort of like the "H" sound in the English language. So Perhaps it would be better as "10 Hronia Mazi".Planecrazy22 (talk) 18:20, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

I believe that the article should be nαmed 10 x.μ. because this is the title of album's cover User:Panagiotis_2007 20:23, December 8 —Preceding unsigned comment added by Panagiotis 2007 (talk • contribs) 18:24, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

It was shortened for the album cover, but the title track and official name is "10 Xronia Mazi". Plus there is no way to put english initials for 10 x.μ. It would look weird like 10 Ch.M. or 10 H.M. Planecrazy22 (talk) 21:09, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

In terms of Wikipedia:naming conventions, the official name isn't all that important although it does carry some weight. I agree that 10 x.μ. isn't a good article name. But it's not because it looks weird, or because there's no way to do it, see User:Andrewa/10 x.μ.. It's because it doesn't fit our article naming conventions. Andrewa (talk) 04:00, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

Well on Phoebus' official site (the song writter and producer for the whole album) it lists the title on the front page as "10 ΧΡΟΝΙΑ ΜΑΖΙ" (or "10 Χρόνια Μαζί" in lowercase if you look in the forum)[1] if you click on the cover. So should it go back to "10 Xronia Mazi", stay at "Chronia" or change over to "Hronia"? Planecrazy22 (talk) 05:27, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

On MAD TV they use for the clips the title ΔΕΣΠΟΙΝΑ ΦΟΙΒΟΣ 10 Χ.Μ. So I believe that we should name the article with this name

ΔΕΣΠΟΙΝΑ ΦΟΙΒΟΣ 10 Χ.Μ.(DESPINA PHOEBUS 10 YEARS TOGETHER) User:Panagiotis_2007 9:23, December 9 (UTC)

Yes but that is just the shortened name---initials for the album. On Phoebus' official site he lists the album name clearly as "10 ΧΡΟΝΙΑ ΜΑΖΙ" or "10 Χρόνια Μαζί". And if you go to the official micro-site[www.despina-phoebus.gr] and click on the album cover at the top, a page comes up with the track listing and the title of the album as "10 ΧΡΟΝΙΑ ΜΑΖΙ". Further more, if you click on the news section, it talks about a future appearance and says "για να υπογράψει το νέο της album «10 Χρόνια Μαζί». Same thing if you click on the discography section. The album comes up as "10 ΧΡΟΝΙΑ ΜΑΖΙ". This is the official site for Despina-Phoebus. Planecrazy22 (talk) 19:28, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

But do these all official sites, some of them in Greek, tell us anything useful about what the average English speaker would most easily recognise? I think not. Andrewa (talk) 01:54, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

Phoebus hasnt updated the english language version of his official site yet, and Vandi's site has yet to mention it. The micro-site dosnt have an English version, so no. The logical way people would recognize it is prob. "10 Xronia Mazi" since its similar to the Greek spelling. But this is wikipedia, and it's not "correct" translation. Actually, judging from how they translate other "χ"'s in names on the English version, it looks like they are going to use 10 Chronia Mazi. We have to wait and see. Planecrazy22 (talk) 02:55, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

A search to see which title English-language album lists are using might be a good idea. I'd do it now but real work beckons! Andrewa (talk) 03:26, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

What do you mean? Planecrazy22 (talk) 05:02, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

I was thinking of using Google to find any English-language album listings (record charts and so on) that already featured this title, and see which spelling they used.

So for a start I did a search first with ch and then with x instead. Rather to my surprise X won handsomely. I can't see any particularly authoritatative sites there, though. You might like to try other related searches. The attraction of authoritative sites is not so much their authority per se but just that others are likely to follow their lead. Andrewa (talk) 05:45, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

I moved the page to 10 Chronia Mazi, normally i would use an "h" for the greek "x" but "ch" is also used and i was thinking about people who dont know any greek. I didnt realize that there was an active discussion page, so i would support its move. Also, can Panagiotis 2007 stop making albums using the "w" instead of the an "o" and its Minos EMI, not EMI Greece. Also it is almost sure to fail the google test since it came out only days ago, there hasnt been enough time for english language sites to get their hands on it. I do have a talk page so feel free to write me.Grk1011 (talk) 22:54, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

With 4,830 ghits for the X spelling, it doesn't actually do too badly at all...!

Agree that you shouldn't generally use a Roman w to transcribe a small case omega, I guess that's the problem you're referring to. Perhaps you could send this user a note on their talk page? Unsure of the issue with EMI, but I suspect that this isn't the best place to discuss it. Andrewa (talk) 02:47, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

What do you mean EMI? Planecrazy22 (talk) 14:30, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

Grk1011 said above its Minos EMI, not EMI Greece. We don't currently have articles on any organisation by either name, but I'm guessing by the context that it's part of EMI and that there's some disagreement over its name. It's probably a good point, but we need more details, and it's probably easier for Grk1011 to provide them than for me to search for the relevant edits. Andrewa (talk) 19:39, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

It is Minos EMI, that is EMI's Greek recording branch, I have a Peggy Zina's album in my hands right now and that is what it says on the back. Also with the "X" the reason that it is an x in so many places is because it is targeted at greek people who would probably know how to pronounce it. The English Wikipedia is geared towards people who speak english and mostly have no idea how to pronounce a greek word. "10 Xronia Mazi" would imply that you pronounce it 10 Ksronia Mazi. We might as well write it "10 Xpovia Mazi" if we do that. I would like to see it written as "10 Hronia Mazi" with redirects from the other spellings so that everyone can find it. Feel free to post on my talk page with any questions.Grk1011 (talk) 21:28, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

Well Greek iTunes is listing it as 10 Hronia Mazi. So I think it should be changed to that....[2] Planecrazy22 (talk) 01:36, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

I have moved it to 10 Hronia Mazi. Planecrazy22 (talk) 01:39, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

Also sorry for not informing you GRK1011. I originally just wanted the history moved to the new page, but then this whole discussion got going. For future references (I'm sure you know, but maybe just forgot) click the "MOVE" tab at the top of the page next to the "HISTORY" tab to properly move the page. This way the history also gets moved to the new page. Planecrazy22 (talk) 05:14, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

O thanks, I knew there must have been an easier way than copy/paste. I think we should decide that the greek "x" is an "h" when translated so then everyone will write greek in english the same way.Grk1011 (talk) 13:13, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

Ok, so im at school right now and the kid next to me says whats this and pronounces the title pretty close to the greek pronounciation using the "hronia." He thought that "chronia" would be more like a "K" or "Ch" as in cheese, but def not "xronia" as he says that it would be pronounced as either a "z" or "ks". So we need to make a system for translations. Also, can we get rid of the "move" thing at the top of the page, we already settled that.Grk1011 (talk) 13:20, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

I don't think it's settled at all. Instead you have just performed another unilateral move without considering whether consensus existed to support it. However 23,200 ghits does suggest to me that the latest move is correct. Andrewa (talk) 15:34, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

GRK1011, the Move button stays at the top of every page no matter what. So it cant disappear. As for me moving it to "Hronia" with out a "consensus" sorry I guess. I just saw that iTunes which is official listed it with an H, and so did a number of other online retailers such as Musical.gr[3], and Greekcity.com[4]. Although when you type in "10 Hronia Mazi" on google, it asks to correct it to "Xronia". But the average English reader most likely will not know Greek and know to pronounce it with an h sound. If we are going to start a vote, I vote 10 Hronia Mazi, with maybe adding in the article some of the alternate spellings IF necessary. Planecrazy22 (talk) 17:36, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

You're right that the Move this page link (which can appear in various places depending on your user preferences) will always be there. But the other issue is the {{move|10 Xronia Mazi}} template that produces the box It has been proposed below... at the head of the page, and does some other clever stuff as well. I suggest you leave this there until the discussion is closed, and that you leave the decision to close the discussion (or perhaps to relist it at Wikipedia:Requested moves to allow more time for discussion) to more experienced hands. That's not a criticism, I'm impressed by the goodwill being shown here and the progress made. But there's a lot to learn about Wikipedia policies and procedures, and they do help save everyone's time when they're followed. That's what they're for! Andrewa (talk) 23:00, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

So if we all seem to agree that it is "hronia" then isnt the problem solved. Also id like to add that "xronia" is the greenglish spelling, greek written in latin letters that look the closest to the greek ones. the problem is that a greek would for example see a "w" and think omega and therefore "o" while a nongreek would be trying to prounounce it with a "w". the same is with "hronia" and the "X." we need to remember that this is the english wikipedia, not the greenglish one. things need to be written for someone who may only know english.Grk1011 (talk) 01:00, 15 December 2007 (UTC)

Yes, if there's consensus on the current name the problem is solved, assuming that whoever closes this discussion agress that we do have consensus. One of the reasons that I recommend caution in closing this discussion is that the process of dicsussing the move has been abnormal here, in that the article has been moved while the discussion is taking place, and the target has been to a name not originally among those proposed when the page was listed at Wikipedia:requested moves.

As I said before, the problem (if there is one) with lower-case omega doesn't affect this discussion.

There is no problem having redirects from other possible article names, or in acknowledging these names in the article itself if this makes it a better article. Normally, other possible names are listed in the introduction, often in the first sentence. Andrewa (talk) 04:22, 15 December 2007 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.