Talk:’Pataphysics

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[edit] clarification

first time i heard the term "'Pataphysics", and i couldn't understand the actual way of thinking related to it. could an example of a 'Pataphysic solution, idea, joke, or anything, be added to the article? right now it is very unclear to newcomers what 'Pataphysics is really about. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.179.69.179 (talk) 09:55, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] etymology

Do we get an explanation of the apostrophe?

It was Jarry who declared that: "Pataphysics, whose etymological spelling should be 'EPI' and actual orthography 'pataphysics, preceded by an apostrophe so as to avoid a simple pun ... " --jenlight 20:31, 13 January 2006 (UTC)

Personally I miss the pataphysical nature of earlier versions of this article. Contributors would do well to remember that pataphysics is the science of imaginary solutions, not an imaginary science; this article should not be treated as a Nihilartikel, though it probably ought to resemble one.

Tolken 18:49, 12 Apr 2005 (UTC)


(cur) (last) . . 10:30 2 Jun 2003 . . Pcb21 (rm Heath Robinson see also, not strictly correct analogy)

user pcb21 has removed the following useful links:

The root prefix element "Pata-" is still not explained. Is it from Greek like "Meta-" is? I know Greek transliterated spellings can be of separate rooted words 'pedo' meaning either "youth" or "foot" & 'homo' meaning either human or same, so I am not entirely sure if I am to believe what I find when looking online that "pata" is Greek for "to step on". Nagelfar 13:08, 22 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Page move

A user recently moved this page from 'Pataphysics to ’Pataphysics; I see no explanation in the text for the distinction being important enough for a page move, so if there's no objections I'll move it back in ~24 hours. Not everyone has curly quotes in their browser font. -- nae'blis (talk) 14:51, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] See Also

  • Rube Goldberg and Heath Robinson-machines - practical applications of pataphysics
  • Pataphysical situation - a situlogical critique of pataphysics
The Rube Goldberg and Heath Robinson links were listed in the example of the writings of a pataphysician. Since (and you can confirm this if you check the history) those links were NOT written by a pataphysican, then they should not be in the example. The pataphysical situation link.. oops sorry about that. Thanks for putting it back. By the way please sign your comments. It makes for a more constructive dialogue if people know who they are talking to. You can do this by typing ~~~~ at the end of your comment. Pcb21 13:35 2 Jun 2003 (UTC)

[edit] What found where?

Moved the italicized section here. When making historical claims, especially ones that may be contentious, the claim must be spelled out exactly (in this case, it needs to be made clear what was found in the ancient writings) and backed up with references, and with explicit reference to what was found in what passages of each work, preferrably with quotes. In this case, the removed section seems to be making the claim that Faustroll was found in the ancient writings...

Pataphysics is sometimes defined as "the science of imaginary solutions, which symbolically attributes the properties of objects, described by their virtuality, to their lineaments" (from Alfred Jarry's Book Faustroll). It is found in the ancient writings of Chinese philosopher Dzu-tse (Jootsius), Ibicrate the Geometer and Sophrotatos the Armenian.

-Seth Mahoney 18:52, Sep 11, 2004 (UTC)

Those are fictional people and their works are referred to 'pataphysically. I think that sentence is rather important to the article. I will refrain from replacing it because I have the impression that that would not be seen as constructive but I hope a consensus would see its value. SpacemanSpork 23:49, 2005 Feb 28 (UTC)

[edit] Correct spelling?

Isn't the correct spelling " 'pataphysics " (beginning with an apostrophe)?

Yes. Merely follow the external link to the LIP and see for yourself.

[edit] Eadem mutata resurgo

Eadem mutata resurgo translates into English as what? --sparkit (talk) 15:08, July 11, 2005 (UTC)

I too would like to know the significance of the apostrophe :) porges 05:18, July 31, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Beatles?

The article claims 'pataphysics is mentioned in the lyrics to "Maxwell's Silver Hammer," but I've just found a copy of the lyrics online and there's no mention of 'pataphysics anywhere. Can someone verify? --Jay (Histrion) (talk • contribs) 21:20, 28 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Re: Beatles song

It appears in the first two lines of the "Maxwell's Silver Hammer":

'Joan was quizzical; studied pataphysical Science in the home.'

The official Abbey Road lyrics verify this.

With all due respect to the people who drop by from time to time to argue about this, please consult the album, not lyrics online, which are basically best guesses by random people.

Thanks!

You have no way of knowing if they are random people just making guesses or sites dedicated to finding the correct lyrics (through whatever means, most of the time the album). Please find a way to back up your claims.
Thanks!

[edit] punning nature of "'pataphysics"

With respect to Mr. Bill Thayer's interpetation of the "pun" behind "'pataphysics", I would like to make the following observations:

- "Patte a physique" or "leg of physics" is the pun as interpreted in citable sources, namely the works of Keith Beaumont (Alfred Jarry: A Critical and Biographical Study. U.S.: St. Martin's Press. ISBN 0-3120-1712-X) and Roger Shattuck's Selected Works of Alfred Jarry: Ubu Cuckolded, Exploits and Opinions of Doctor Faustroll, US: Grove Press. ISBN 0802151671)

- Having said that, the pun as cited in the aforementioned sources has never made much sense to me. (Is "leg of physics" really a very cutting insult?)

- My choice was to put the citable interpretation to the pun back in, and leave a little of Mr. Thayer's interpretation

- However, the pun could not possibly be "pas ton physique", as that would no longer be a pun with "pataphysique", but "patonphysique", a word which does not (yet!) exist

When speaking, french people would pronounce "not your physics" as "pas t'a physique" which sounds exactly like pataphysique. Also, "Patte" means leg but "pate" means paste (the noun not the verb). Could it be a physic's paste? Dawnfrenzy 06:37, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Addition to Music section

I believe the music section should include Pataphysical Introduction (parts 1 & 2) on Soft Machine's album Volume Two, 1969, but I'm new around here and don't want to do it myself at this time. Here's an informative but not authoritative link: http://starling.rinet.ru/music/soft.htm#Two I'm Robin Faichney, robin@reborntechnology.co.uk

[edit] Beatles song does indeed mention "'pataphysics", NOT "metaphysics"

As has been previously said, the Beatles song DOES mention "'pataphysics", as anyone can see who has a copy of Abbey Road.

It also appears in various authorized, published versions of "Maxwell's Silver Hammer", including the following book, which has been added to the bibliography:

  • Schonberg, Bo (1986). Beatles Complete Guitar. U.S.: Hal Leonard Corporation. ISBN 0-88188-605-X. 

[edit] Pataphor

i have just pulled pataphore from its deleted article and put it into this pataphysics article. i dont know if there are objections to this kind of activity so i wanted to initiate a discussion.

the following is info i did not include from the other article.

[edit] Example 2

"Jenny is eleven years old. She lives on a farm in Luxembourg, West Virginia. Today Jenny is collecting eggs from the hen house. It is 10 a.m. She walks slowly down the rows of cages, feeling around carefully for eggs tucked beneath clucking hens. She finds the first egg in number 6. When she holds it to the light she sees it is the deep tan of boot leather, an old oil-rubbed cowboy boot, creased with microscopic branching lines, catching the light at the swelling above the scarred dusty heel, curled at the cuff, bending and creaking as the foot of the cowboy squirms to rediscover its fit, a leathery thumb and index prying at the scruff, the heel stomping the floor. Victor the hotel manager swings open the door and gives Cowboy a faint smile." - (from "Pataphor Test," by Pablo Lopez)

From the above passage, we can see that:

  • Jenny exists in reality
  • The boot exists in metaphor
  • Cowboy (and the hotel, Victor, etc.) exists in pataphor

[edit] Definitions

Pataphor (noun):

1. An extended metaphor that creates its own context.
2. That which occurs when a lizard's tail has grown so long it breaks off and grows a new lizard.

[edit] History

Although the word 'pataphor' has likely been used by others to mean different things in a 'pataphysical context, Lopez is the first known writer to have attached a specific meaning to the word, created its relationship to metaphor, and devoted an entire body of work to its explication and exploration, first in "Closet 'Pataphysics", appearing in New Orleans' Ellipsis, and then in Pataphors, housed in the archives of Hollins University.

[edit] Thoughts?

i realized that all the commotion on the deletion review might be negotiated with this action, so heres a try. its up to the pataphysicists now.Some thing 17:53, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] London Institute of 'Pataphysics

I cut the following unreferenced and dubious section from the article and bring it here for discussion:

The London Institute of 'Pataphysics was established in September 2000 to promote 'pataphysics. It organised the Anthony Hancock Paintings and Sculptures: A Retrospective Exhibition.
It has six departments:

As I already stated, this is unreferenced, and looks downright silly. It may very well be a hoax, or one of Stewart Home's projects---which amounts to the same thing. Anyone have any ideas about this? ---RepublicanJacobiteThe'FortyFive' 00:53, 29 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Example of a 'pataphor

Here is the original example that was up, going from non-figurative to metaphor to pataphor:

  • Tom and Alice stood side by side in the lunch line.
  • Tom and Alice stood side by side in the lunch line, two pieces on a chessboard.
  • Tom took a step closer to Alice and made a date for Friday night, checkmating. Rudy was furious at losing to Margaret so easily and dumped the board on the rose-colored quilt, stomping downstairs.

The problem with this is that we have two different scenarios. The first two are one scenario, the third is another. We can't directly compare them to see what it is about the third example that makes it a pataphor.

I replaced this with

  • Tom made a date with Alice for Friday night, angering Rudy
  • Tom took a step closer to Alice and made a date for Friday night, checkmating.
  • Tom took a step closer to Alice and made a date for Friday night, checkmating. Rudy was furious at losing to Margaret so easily and dumped the board on the rose-colored quilt, stomping downstairs.

These three examples are all the same scenario, and therefore it is easier to compare to see what it is about the second that makes it a metaphor and what it is about the third that makes it a pataphor.

My version was reverted by Martijn. Maybe he can explain why it doesn't work for him? Otherwise, I think the second version should stand.

Sam —Preceding unsigned comment added by 63.138.152.238 (talk) 17:34, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

Hi Sam. I reverted the edit, because I didn't understand how "Tom took a step closer to Alice and made a date for Friday night, checkmating." is a metaphor for "Tom made a date with Alice for Friday night, angering Rudy". There are a few more things I prefer about the first example, but a clarification here would be nice already. Martijn Hoekstra (talk) 18:11, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
Hi Martijn, I should hav removed the "Tom took a step closer to Alice..." part, so that the beginning of each sentence remains the same. Either way, I still think it's more analogous. I can now reads the original story and see that it was supposed to be a sequential series of events, but since the first two overlap, it doesn't read that way. I think it's better if they all describe the same event in the three different ways, so that the parts that remain the same are easily left out of the equation, so to speak:
  • Tom made a date with Alice for Friday night, angering Rudy
  • Tom made a date with Alice for Friday night, checkmating.
  • Tom made a date with Alice for Friday night, checkmating. Rudy was furious at losing to Margaret so easily and dumped the board on the rose-colored quilt, stomping downstairs.
--Sam 16:17, 15 February 2008 (UTC)
I question the notability and verifiability of this term. My concern is that the same arguments were more than likely the basis for the deletion of the separate article on this topic, which means including the information here was inappropriate. This term has only a very loose connectin with 'Pataphysics, in that none of the "classical" exponents of the philosophy coined or used the term. It is, properly speaking, a neologism. I suggest the entire section be removed. ---RepublicanJacobiteThe'FortyFive' 16:54, 15 February 2008 (UTC)
I still don't get how "Tom made a date with Alice for Friday night, checkmating" is a metaphor for "Tom made a date with Alice for Friday night, angering Rudy". Martijn Hoekstra (talk) 18:30, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Pataphysics Games

I have add a last 'pataphysic game. --79.37.189.28 (talk) 11:24, 4 June 2008 (UTC)