Talk:‘Abd ar-Razzaq

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[edit] Categorizing

You dont do this to arabic names. --Striver 15:38, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

What a totally useless comment to refer to in an edit summary. Yes, you do--see WP:CAT. Gene Nygaard 16:45, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

You dont get it, Arabic names are not constructed like Enlish ones, what you just did is comparable to "cataloging" Micheal Jackson as "son, Jack Michael". --Striver 04:09, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

You just don't get it. What you just did is stick him after the Z in the category listing, a place where it is damn sure nobody is going to be looking for him. Gene Nygaard 00:30, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

And no, it damn sure isn't like cataloging Micheal Jackson which redirects to Michael Jackson as son, Jack Michael. It is rather like listing him as Jackson, isn't it? Gene Nygaard 00:34, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

But actually the "son of" part of this person's name isn't even included in the article name. Gene Nygaard 00:48, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

Categorizing Arabic names is very difficult. The inverted comma in front of the A is an ayin, and is not the same as an A. The ayin character is not in the English alphabet, so categorizing it as an A is wrong. The best thing is to leave it so that the ‘ appears as its own letter after Z. Cuñado - Talk 01:25, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

Most certainly not. We index by the 26 letters of the English alphabet. Gene Nygaard 00:11, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

You don't get it... --Striver 00:31, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

No, you don't. Nobody sorts the way you do, and it is totally contrary to Wikipedia:Categorization and several other Wikipedia guidelines as well. So your unfounded claims of some other rule just don't cut it. Gene Nygaard 15:06, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

Man, listen! ‘Abd ar-Razzaq is NOT a "name surname" that you can turn into a "surname, name", im telling you: Arabic names do not follow that patern, you can not do that with Arab names! Presumably "‘Abd ar-Razzaq" is only a first name, so you are buthering a first name. Its like having a guy named "Abd-Allah ibn X" that is simply called "abd-allah" and you turn it into "Alla, Abd". Its simply wrong! Its like chainging "striver" to "ver, Stri". Dont' butcher a first name. --Striver 15:20, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

This article did have a surname in its name, till you yourself screwed around with it, so don't be pleading ignorance now. This current article name is a "slave/servant of" somebody name. The "ibn Hammam" is the patronymic surname. The "as-San‘a’ni" which was in the article's name until you changed it, is the toponymic surname (from Sanaa, Yemen). Gene Nygaard 15:52, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

Any of which, of course, are not peculiar to Arabic names. It is no different, for example, than Nils Waltersen Aasen who had both a patronym and a toponym, the latter of which would have changed if he had moved to a different farm in Norway rather than moving to America. Gene Nygaard 15:56, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

Sight... you are so smart that you have to be right... i give up, i wouldn't want to risk exposing my ignorance... you win, gratz... --Striver 18:23, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

Sorry about not following up here, real life was getting in the way of wikipedia. The MOS for Arabic has a section on alphabetizing here. It's not written very well, but it notes that the apostrophe and turned comma should be ignored, and that the definite article should be ignored (al, ar, etc). So I was wrong by suggesting to use `. It currently is categorized as [Abd ar-Razzaq] so that's right. Gene, if you think that's wrong then you should re-write that part of the Arabic MOS, and Striver, you should add an example there that there aren't surnames in Arabic. Cuñado - Talk 08:27, 9 December 2006 (UTC)