Talk:Široka Kula massacre

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[edit] References

I'll speak about references in English.
http://www.un.org/icty/indictment/english/bab-ii031117e.htm is initial indictment (6th of November 2003) of Milan Babić (later convicted). The header of the document is "The International Criminal Tribunal for the former Yugoslavia, ICTY - the prosecutor of the tribunal against Milan Baić - indictment.
Milan Babić was charged with crimes against humanity and violations of laws or customs of war. Kubura 06:54, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

I'll provide ICTY transcripts of sentencing judgments for Milan Babić and Milan Martić. Kubura 06:54, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

Saborsko is explicitly mentioned in the sentence judgement in the ICTY site, on the www.un.org (UN's site).
A shorter version, [1] is titled "Milan Martić sentenced to 35 years for crimes against humanity and war crimes", on the same site.
This should be the "third party". Kubura 07:37, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

On ICTY's sentence judgement page (the case of Milan Martić), says:
"The Trial Chamber has taken particular note of the fact that the attacks on predominantly Croat areas during the autumn of 1991 and early 1992 followed a generally similar pattern, that is: the area or village in question was shelled, after which armed ground units entered. After the fighting had subsided, acts of killing and violence were committed against the non-Serb civilian population who had not managed to flee. Houses, churches and property were destroyed, and widespread looting was carried out as part of the forcible removal. On several occasions, the SAO Krajina police and TO organised transport for the non-Serb population in order to remove it from SAO Krajina territory altogether to locations under Croatian control. Members of the non-Serb population would also be rounded up and taken away to detention facilities, including in central Knin, and eventually exchanged and transported to areas under Croatian control.
Thus, the threat clearly expressed in Milan Martić's ultimatum in Kijevo was carried out in the territory of the SAO Krajina through the commission of widespread, grave crimes. This created an atmosphere of fear in which the further presence of Croats and other non-Serbs in the SAO Krajina was made impossible. The Trial Chamber has therefore concluded that the displacement of the Croat and other non-Serb population which followed these attacks was not merely the consequence of military action, but in fact its primary objective. "
This should be helpful. Kubura 07:46, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

On that same page Martić's sentence, says:
"The attack on Kijevo marked a turning point in the JNA's role in the conflict in Croatia , and from that point, the JNA participated in attacks on majority-Croat areas and villages together with SAO Krajina MUP and TO forces. From August 1991 and into early 1992, these combined forces attacked several Croat-majority villages and areas, including Hrvatska Kostajnica, Cerovljani, Hrvatska Dubica, Baćin, Saborsko, Poljanak, Lipovača, Škabrnja and Nadin. The evidence shows that the attacks were carried out in order to connect Serb villages and areas across non-Serb areas. During these attacks, the crimes of murder, destruction, plunder, detention, torture, and cruel treatment were committed against the non-Serb population. ". Kubura 07:27, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Rebellion

Nikola Smolenski, maybe you weren't neither borned then.
But, I'll help you.
These are rebelled political units, organized by rebelled Serbs.
Rebel Croatian Serb leader Jovan Rašković on a meeting (miting) said: "Ovo je pobuna srpskog naroda!" (This is the rebellion of the Serb people!").
Now, don't tell me that Rašković is pro-Croat source or that Rašković is POV-izing.
Don't make edit wars here, just because you haven't read the sources. Kubura 08:34, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

I've copied this text from the talk:Krajina, in a case that Nikola Smolenski plays dumb. Kubura 08:43, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Problems with the article

As i can see Siroka Kula isn´t mentioned in the indictment, also are there ANY non-croatian sources about this massacre?Paulcicero 23:18, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

Why are you questioning Croatian sources regarding the case of Široka Kula massacre, Paulcicero? Does that mean that Jewish/Israeli sources are questionable regarding Auschwitz case? Come on, be serious. If you find victims' sources questionable, than... Kubura 13:03, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

Here and here, in Serbian. Milosevic Trial - Hague Tribunal - Humanitarian Law Center. Kubura 09:36, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

Kubura please provide a source that anyone has been convicted of war crimes in Siroka Kula, it´s as simple as that. Paulcicero 11:43, 16 October 2007 (UTC)
You put Babic´s conviction as a source that it´s a war crime, but his indictment (or the judgement) doesn´t mention Siroka Kula so how can he be convicted of something he wasn´t even indicted for? Paulcicero 11:55, 16 October 2007 (UTC)
There are two sentencing judgements (in absence) in Croatian courts, both in Županijski sud u Gospiću (County court in Gospić), that deal with the case of Široka Kula massacre. Dvije pravomoćne presude, kojima su proglašeni krivima. One from 27 Feb 1997, against two persons, and one from 16 June 1994 (indictment from 30 June 1992), against six persons. Here's a link that deals with the latter case. Article from "Slobodna Dalmacija" newspaper. Kubura 12:45, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

You don't read the materials, don't you?
Regarding Babić, read the section in the indictment, where mentions his responsibility for the persecutions and deaths of non-Serb persons.
"Milan BABIC participated in a joint criminal enterprise that came into existence no later than 1 August 1991 and continued until at least June 1992. The purpose of this joint criminal enterprise was the permanent forcible removal of the majority of the Croat and other non-Serb population from approximately one-third of the territory of the Republic of Croatia ("Croatia"), in order to make them part of a new Serb-dominated state through the commission of crimes in violation of Articles 3 and 5 of the Statute of the Tribunal"...
...The charge, count 1: From on or about 1 August 1991 until at least 15 February 1992, Milan BABIC, acting individually or in concert with other known and unknown members of a joint criminal enterprise, committed or otherwise aided and abetted in the planning, preparation, or execution of persecutions of the Croat and other non-Serb civilian populations in the SAO Krajina/RSK. ".
This doesn't explicitly mention Široka Kula, but still, it is in the areas mentioned above.
Also, on 16 Oct, you've removed the reference again [2]. That's vandalism. That reference there was to justify the use of term "war crime".
Regarding being convicted - read the references. Killing of a civilian in those circumstances is a war crime. A perpetrator might be unknown, but war crime is a war crime.
According to you, the attack on the New York's WTC would not be a terrorist attack, because the court hasn't convicted anyone for the attack yet. Or the killings in Auschwitz? Many individual perpetrators of crimes (against humanity) committed there have never been found (nor anyone'll ever find where they hide/were hiding, because all the witnesses were dead on spot), but the crimes against humanity are always crimes against humanity (with perpetrators known or not). Were those crimes "not the crimes at all" before the Nurenberg trial and conviction of nazi leaders? Yes, they were heavy crimes against humanity. Wake up, man. The crime is always a crime. Kubura 13:00, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

Yes I removed your reference, but its not vandalism if nothing is said in the reference to support your claim. Neither the indictment or the judgement against Babic mentions any victims in Siroka Kula and they mention alot of names. Yes maybe it was a war crime but there isn´t anything from the ICTY to confirm it. We can´t be judges of what constitues a war crime, if we were then i could write that much of that what croats did was war crimes, but i don´t, i follow ICTY´s judgment although I dont really find them neutral. Paulcicero 17:39, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

AFAIK, Milan Babić is convicted because of crimes committed in the areas controlled by rebelled Serbs. And that includes Široka Kula. His indictment and sentencing judgement should stay there. In fact, Milan Martić's indictment and judgement should also be there, as well as Šešelj's and Milošević's indictment. And few citations of things that Vuk Drašković said ("obračunavanje s Hrvatima") should also be there. Kubura 12:45, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

There's ongoing investigation because of a war crime against certain persons. The process is still in the phase of the investigation (not elevated to the level of the charge/indictment yet), because the identities of perpetrators must be confirmed;however, this war crime isn't questioned. Kubura 13:03, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

Milan Babic was convicted of the charges brought against him. If we follow your way then everything that happened in Republic of Serbian Krajina was a war crime. You have failed to show any sources supporting that what happened i Siroka Kula was a war crime. Your interpretation of Babic´s judgement is original research. Paulcicero 15:50, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

In article War crimes it is clearly writen what are war crimes. You can read everything or only this:
"War crimes include such acts as mistreatment of prisoners of war or civilians. War crimes are sometimes part of instances of mass murder and genocide though these crimes are more broadly covered under international humanitarian law described as crimes against humanity"
Second interesting definition for this crime is:
"War crimes are defined in the statute that established the International Criminal Court, which includes:
Hanging of suspected United Irishmen.Grave breaches of the Geneva Conventions, such as:
Willful killing, or causing great suffering or serious injury to body or health"
Because this 2 definitions massacre in Široka Kula is war crime ! --Rjecina 16:53, 23 October 2007 (UTC)
You still don´t understand the problem. We can´t decide what a war crime is, then anyone on wikipedia can put "was a war crime" on most articles regarding the war in ex-yu. We must follow the rulings of ICTY because it is the most neutral party. If Siroka Kula was included in an indictment against someone and that person was found guilty then we can call it a war crime but unless such rulings exists then it is original research Paulcicero 21:12, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

You don't respect the courts, do you, Paulcicero? Like it or not, you must respect it. Stop ignoring Croatian sources and courts. That's other country, that's not Serbia, and you cannot treat Croatia like you want to, nor do thing across Croatia like you want to.
If ICTY hasn't processed this case, that doesn't mean it that this massacre never "happened".
If a Croatian court has brought the decision and convicted certain persons as war criminals, than you must respect it. Croatia is internationally recognised country, Croatian courts are legal organisations, with legal power, and they don't have to ask enemy country for its opinion.
All Croatian court decisions are valid worldwide.
Read the reference I gave you above. You don't need and IQ>200 to type Ctrl+F and type "ratni zločin" (war crime). Kubura 12:08, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

(1) Why do you insist of using Babic´s judgement as a source, when it´s clear (as far as i know) that Siroka Kula wasn´t in his indictment?
(2) Wasn´t Serdar acquitted a couple of months later? [3]? Paulcicero 14:05, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

Read better. Judge said "...nema dokaza da je S., Srbin iz Široke Kule pokraj Gospića, u vrijeme Domovinskog rata na području Gospića počinio ratne zločine nad civilima, kako ga je teretila optužnica".
Translation, "...there's no proof, that S., Serb from Široka Kula near Gospić, in the time of Homeland War (Croatian War of Independence), on the area of Gospić, committed war crimes over civilians, as it said in the indictment".
 That means, that particular person (I avoid mentioning surnames) S. wasn't proved guilty, but the war crimes weren't denied. They existed. Kubura (talk) 08:35, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Croatian civilians of Serb nationality

I intentionally haven't mentioned the surname of these Croatian Serbs, that Serb extremists killed. I want other family members to have their privacy. Also, I didn't want to go into detail about things that Serb chetniks committed against their daughter. Too embarrassing. Women's rights associations'll have something to say here. Kubura 10:11, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

There is 1 little link [4] It is not possible to read more but in newspaper killers have been members of Arkan forces under command of Čedo Budislavljević from Lički Osik. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.91.99.205 (talk) 06:35, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Martić's indictment and sentencing judgement

Do you read the pages that links lead to?
Martić was the president. Do you remember, who told, that "as long as he's there, no Croat'll get into RSK?".
Read the indictment parts that passed in sentencing judgement.
Summary of judgement for Milan Martić. Don't play that you don't comprehend.
" In January 1991, the SAO Krajina established a "Regional Secretariat for Internal Affairs" in Knin and Milan Martić was appointed Secretary for Internal Affairs. The government of Croatia was informed that the Croatian MUP would no longer be considered as having authority within the SAO Krajina. On the 27 th of June 1991 , Milan Martić was appointed Minister of the Interior of the SAO Krajina".
"From 1991 until August 1995, Milan Martić held several positions within the SAO Krajina and the RSK governments, including Minister of Defence of the SAO Krajina, Deputy Commander of the TO of the SAO Krajina, Minister of the Interior of the SAO Krajina as well as of the RSK, and, from early 1994, he became President of the RSK.".
"For each count, the Prosecution has charged individual criminal responsibility pursuant to Article 7(1) of the Statute and pursuant to Article 7(3) of the Statute. In particular, the Prosecution alleges that Milan Martić participated in a joint criminal enterprise together with, among others, Slobodan Milošević, Milan Babić, Radovan Karadžić, Ratko Mladić, Jovica Stanišić, Franko "Frenki" Simatović, and other named and unnamed individuals of the forces mentioned previously.
 The Prosecution has alleged that the common purpose was:
"the forcible removal of a majority of the Croat, Muslim and other non-Serb population from approximately 1/3 of the territory of Croatia and large parts of B&H in order to make them part of a new Serb-dominated state."
The Prosecution has alleged that all of the crimes charged were within the object of the joint criminal enterprise and that at all relevant times Milan Martić held the necessary state of mind for the commission of each of these crimes. In the alternative, the Prosecution has alleged that ... crimes other than deportation and forcible transfer - were a natural and foreseeable consequence of the execution of the common purpose. It is alleged that Milan Martić was aware that such crimes were the possible outcome of the execution of this joint criminal enterprise. "
 Široka Kula is just one of them. Kubura 09:55, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

Siroka Kula still isn´t mentioned in the indictment. Your speculation that this incident is included in the judgement is OR. Paulcicero 20:49, 11 November 2007 (UTC)

Paulcicero, Hitler and Göbbels weren't on the trial for the war crimes, and, as far as I know, they didn't get any sentence. Would you say, because of that, that they are not war criminals? Bollocks. They ARE the war criminals.
Second, from 4 January 1991 to August 1995, Martić held various leadership positions, including President, Minister of Defence, Minister of Internal Affairs. That makes him responsible for the events against civilians and POW (beside other things). If you don't understand the responsibilities, than don't mess with such serious things as massacres of civilians. Kubura (talk) 08:19, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Links about Široka Kula massacre

Here're the links.
Slobodna Dalmacija: "Slobodna" u gradu progonjenih i oklevetanih Hrvata, 24, 25, 26 Dec 2000:
"Kažu da se nitko ne pita što je s hrvatskim civilnim žrtvama iz 1991. godine, posebno u Širokoj Kuli gdje su Srbi masakrirali dvadeset i devetero hrvatske djece, žena i staraca. O tom zločinu postoji čak i fotodokumentacija, ali očito je da haaške istražitelje previše ne zanima."
Slobodna Dalmacija: Istražite i grobnice sa hrvatskim žrtvama, 12 Apr 2000
"postupku pokrenu aktivnosti prema Haaškom sudu u vezi s istraživanjem stratišta nevinih hrvatskih žrtava na ovom području, iz Široke Kule, Lovinca, Čanka, Barlete i Gospića..." .
"Dok se u Gospiću...obavljaju pripremne radnje za dolazak haaških istražitelja, a gradski i županijski čelnici suzdržano izjavljuju da bi bilo prihvatljivije da su ekshumacije započele usporedo i u hrvatskim i u srpskim grobnicama, ogorčenje stanovništva kulminira u mjestima oko Gospića čiji su stanovnici za vrijeme rata izmakli masovnim smaknućima".
"U Širokoj Kuli, gdje je najveći prosvjed dogovoren.... Čučao sam u grmu kada su četnici rafalima ispred kuće pokosili moju ženu i još dvoje ljudi. Onda su ih, ubijene, bacili u vatru. Samo u našem selu palo je 29 civilnih žrtava. One koji su mi na kućnom pragu ubili ženu poznajem, to su bili naši susjedi. Vjerujem da je svih 29 civilnih žrtava, među kojima je i moja supruga, bačeno u jednu masovnu grobnicu. Znam da je najmlađa žrtva imala 14 godina. Umjesto da pronađem i pokopam suprugu, dočekao sam ekshumaciju srpskih žrtava, kao da naše i ne postoje."
"Udruge iz Domovinskog rata pozivaju haaške istražitelje... da istraže zločine koje je srpski okupator predvođen počinio nad hrvatskim stanovništvom Široke Kule, Lovinca, Podlapače, Vrhovina i drugih mjesta."
More to come. Kubura (talk) 09:13, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

Here's a link with the victimlist.
Slobodna Dalmacija: Gospićki leševi žrtve četničkog pokolja iz Široke Kule i Vukave, 3 Oct 2000.
There you have the whole description.
Slobodna Dalmacija: Uskoro ekshumacije u Lovincu i Širokoj Kuli, 5. Jun 2002.
Slobodna Dalmacija: Ukratko, 14 Oct 2002. Holy mass for the victims.
Slobodna Dalmacija: Suradnja s Haagom - da, ali ne bezuvjetna, 16 Apr 2000. "dragovoljci "nisu a priori protiv haaških istražitelja", ali traže da se isto tako istraže zločini u Lovincima, Svetom Roku, Barletama, Bilaju, Perušiću, Kosi, Korenici, Udbini, Širokoj Kuli...".
Also, above, on the same link, you have an article about "innocent Serb civilians killed in Gospić", "U Obradovića Varoši kosti "belih orlova"?"/"In Obradovića Varoš are the bones of "Beli orlovi" (Beli orlovi = paramilitary troop of volunteers from Serbia, that joined the aggression on Croatia).
 There you have it. Kubura (talk) 10:53, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

I am not saying that it wasn´t a war crime, but for us to write it in the article it would have to be a judicial fact. Otherwise i could write that much of what Croats did was also war crime. My point is that war crime is a legal term and as such there need to be a judgement proclaiming it to be a crime. Paulcicero 15:38, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

Well, you've gave the link [5]. Person "S." was relieved, but the line about the war crime (in the indictment and in the original judgement) wasn't denied.
Optužnica (i izvorna presuda) govori o ratnom zločinu. S. je oslobođen krivnje, ali je i dalje ostalo da je ratni zločin. I'll repeat you what I've written/cited above. "nema dokaza da je S.r, Srbin iz Široke Kule pokraj Gospića, u vrijeme Domovinskog rata na području Gospića počinio ratne zločine nad civilima, kako ga je teretila optužnica".
In fact, there's a link on the internet, where you can find all judgements related to this (and some other cases). But, that's not official site, and I'm not sure if anybody is allowed to put such info on the net. Kubura (talk) 10:01, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

Novi list: D.S. oslobođen optužbe za ratni zločin, 24 Sep 2004. "jučer je u obnovljenom postupku oslobođen D.S. koji je 1994. u odsutnosti osuđen na 15 godina zbog ratnog zločina protiv civilnog stanovništva, odnosno ubojstva osam mještana Široke Kule kraj Gospića ". This'd be enough. Kubura (talk) 10:10, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

Vjesnik: U jami kod Ljubova pronađeno 14 tijela Hrvata iz Široke Kule, 27 Sep 2004. "U novootkrivenoj masovnoj grobnici u 60 metara dubokoj jami, tzv. golubnjači, na području Ljubova, u Lici...žrtve su bile vezane prije nego što su bačene u jamu, te da su na njima uočene strijelne ozljede iz vatrenog oružja. Sve su bile u zimskoj odjeći, što govori o vremenu kada su ubijene....Ima pokazatelja da su žrtve Hrvati iz Široke Kule, nestali u listopadu 1991.". Kubura (talk) 10:15, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Ignorance of references

Paulcicero, you're ignoring the abovementioned links or playing dumb again [6].
You cannot ignore this. "Novi list" is a daily newspaper from Croatia (with a long tradition), not a sensationalist newspaper.
So, I'll repeat again the things that I've given here on 5 December 2007:
Novi list: D.S. oslobođen optužbe za ratni zločin, 24 Sep 2004. "jučer je u obnovljenom postupku oslobođen D.S. koji je 1994. u odsutnosti osuđen na 15 godina zbog ratnog zločina protiv civilnog stanovništva, odnosno ubojstva osam mještana Široke Kule kraj Gospića ".
Translation (for those who don't understand Croatian):
So, I'll repeat again the things that I've given here on 5 December 2007:
Novi list D.S. released free from the accusation for the war crime, 24 Sep 2004: "In a repeated trial, yesterday has D.S. been released free. In 1994, D.S. has been in sentenced to 15 years because of war crime committed against civilian population (for the murder of eight peasants from Široka Kula near Gospić. ".
Stop with the edit warring. I'm giving you the references, that you persistently ignore.
Ignoring of references is unallowed behaviour on Wikipedia.
Denying of war crimes is a very serious thing.
You persistently deny or belittle the war crimes committed by rebelled Serbs (as well as regulars and volunteers from Serbia) against Croats during the times of Serbian aggression on Croatia. War crime isn't a car crash, nor an "event", Paulcicero.
If you think that you can disrupt Wikipedia eternally with ignorant edits with comments "no source" (what "no source"? Every time you have it provided earlier.) and revert childishly, you're wrong. Kubura (talk) 14:28, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

Kubura, not all references are equally reliable. For example Serbian or Croatian publications regarging the conflict between Serbs and Croats are likely to be biased. The reference to the ICTY is an example of fairly neutral and reliable one. However, as far as I understand, Siroka Kula isn't explicitly mentioned there and thus it can't be used to back the claim that it was indeed a war crime. Alæxis¿question? 19:01, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

Alaexis, what are you getting into?
Denying of court decisions?
If you question the newspapers as source, these abovementioned are serious ones, not some sensationalistic nor extremist junk.
They haven't made up those news, they published news with the background.
What are those underlined words above, Alaexis?
Regarding "biased publications". I know that it's to expect that everyone 'll "pull for his own side".
When you mention ICTY as neutral... ICTY is supposed to be neutral. I take ICTY seriously. However, a court cannot segregate nor "skip cases" nor "filter" evidence material nor choose who'll be processed or not. ICTY was faster for dealing with 1995 and "Croat war crimes", than with crimes committed by Serbs in 1991. Especially the Serbs that bragged around loudly on media about their "work" (committed against Croats and Bos. Muslims and other non-Serbs). ICTY protracted with investigating and processing of those persons for too long, without any real ground. Too many of them got away. One serious tribunal cannot allow such things to itself. It's not allowed to behave so.
Let's return to Croatian media and courts. If a person was relieved from guilt for a particular war crime, that was published (even if that person was a rebelled Serb), as the links above show. I didn't mentioned the full name of relieved , but only the initial(s).
Have in mind, that Croatian court sentenced several persons because of war crimes regarding this case, in absentia. According to law, that person had right for repeated process; court process was repeated, and he was relieved from guilt. So, no biased attitude. Kubura (talk) 08:22, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Article title

The article is named Siroka Kula massacre. Is it the name of the incident most commonly used in English-language sources? If yes there should be references supporting it and if not the article should be renamed. Alæxis¿question? 19:07, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

May your words go from your mouth to the ears of our dear God, Alaexis.
We're desperately looking forward for the moment, when massacre in Široka Kula and all other neglected massacres over Croatian civilians (committed by rebelled Serbs, JNA, Serbian and Montenegrin regular forces and volunteers from Serbia, Montenegro and Bosnia-Herzegovina) 'd be shown in English-language media.
Coverage of those massacres and journalists' interests for them is, unfortunately, very low. Kubura (talk) 07:21, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

Then why do you call this event a 'massacre' and a 'war crime'? These are pretty strong words and should be backed up with reliable sources. What do Serbian sources say of these events? If they say something different Wikipedia should take neither side and both POVs should be described. Alæxis¿question? 18:56, 19 December 2007 (UTC)
btw, I doubt Siroka Kula massacre isn't covered in Western media at all. Do try to search for it... Alæxis¿question? 19:01, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, Alaexis, Serbian sources deny all their massacres. Do you know Serbian saying "Ko prizna, pola mu se doda" (opposing to "Tko prizna, pola mu se prašta"). Translation: "Who admits the guilt, the half is being added" as opposed to traditional "Who admits the guilt, the half is being deducted". Serbia and rebelled Serbs have screwed up here, they have it in interest to deny this. Otherwise they cannot sell the stories about "poor innocent Serbs that were picking up flowers".
Why do I call that "event" (just an "event"? - this is nedjelo, not an događaj=event) as massacre and war crime? Read those links above, please. Do you listen to me what I say (or better to say, do you read what I post and what I've posted here)? Do I have to repeat same message every time some ignorant POV-izer drops by on this article?
If you have any doubts above the links above, these are links from Croatian daily newspapers, not from some sensationalist crapmagazines.
In the link from Portal of Croatian Cultural Council (this one is not a newspaper, but an online portal) you have the descriptions of events and the victims' names.
If you don't know Croatian, ratni zločin=war crime, pokolj=massacre, slaughter. Kubura (talk) 09:06, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

I'm sorry but it seems that you don't quite get the concept of WP:NPOV. Why should Serbian or Croatian sources be preferred in this particular case or in general? If they say different things and there's no independent account of some events Wikipedia must present both sides' opinions (and at the very least clearly mark questionable facts as some side's POV). Alæxis¿question? 15:48, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
If you still don't agree with me you can alsways ask for a comment and then try other dispute resolution methods. Alæxis¿question? 15:50, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

Croatian courts are official bodies, and we must respect them.
All "questioning" of court decisions is original work, original research. If anyone has any proofs against court decisions, that must be done in other places, not on en.wiki.
Man, I'm not making things up. Certain persons are sentenced for this war crime, by a legal body of an internationally recognised country.
Also, we have to be careful with "stretching" of WP:NPOV rule because of "no preferred side". Otherwise, things might end into genocide and crime denialism (e.g. with "other side's opinion": nazi opinions about holocaust, nazi opinions and attitudes about their crimes against civilians in Soviet Union and nazi attitudes about Hitler's conquest, neofascist romanticising of Mussolini's era, nazi and anti-Slav attitudes about Slavs...). Kubura (talk) 21:09, 29 December 2007 (UTC)

Kubura, I have a feeling that this argument is getting useless. If you disagree with the way NPOV principle is applied here (or with the NPOV principle itself, maybe) ask about it at the WP:NPOV talkpage.
There's almost complete consensus regarding the Nazis' crimes among the world's scholars. This is not the case here (or you have failed to demonstrate it so far). Alæxis¿question? 10:04, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Rebelled Serbs' sources

It seems that even rebelled Serbs have investigated this case. In Gračac, Nov 11, 1991. [7]. Kubura (talk) 09:35, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Links

Here's more links and references.

  • Mass Killing and Genocide in Croatia 1991./92., Ministarstvo zdravstva RH, 1992 (note: this book issued by Ministry of Health of Croatia, also deals with crimes over Serb population, like in Gospić, Pakrac, Marino Selo; it gives identical data, that at the same time was given by Helsinki Watch and Amnesty International, so you can take it as neutral)
  • Ratni zločini u BiH, Helsinki Watch, 1992 (minister refers to this book, to section čišćenje na području srpske okupacije; I must check if there was only English edition)
  • Državno odvjetništvo RH Istraga "zbog mnogih zločina nad civilnim stanovništvom" nije obustavljena a osumnjičeni zbog ratnog zločina nad obitelji Rakić i dalje su predmet istrage
  • Slobodna Dalmacija Granić kaže da Haag nema dokumente o agresiji na Hrvatsku?
  • Novi list Široka Kula: Mjesto masakra 39 Hrvata - Pokopano sedmero stradalnika, Jul 10, 2005
  • Katolici.org Otkriveno i blagoslovljeno spomen obilježje masovne grobnice Golubnjača, Sep 11 2007
  • Gospićko-senjska biskupija Široka kula- misa za žrtve
  • Hrvatski intelektualni zbor BiH Što se događalo u Lici prije akcije Medački džep?

However, if you think that Croat media has thought this up, than have a look at site of rebelled Croatian Serbs, krajinaforce.com (also, Alaexis, previously, I gave you a link, where it says that rebelled Serbs' authorities have prosecuted one Serb person and imprisoned it, but that person has later easily escaped). This link is not a newspaper, nor a magazine, but a forum (which immediately questions/eliminates its reliability). But, that forum had Serbs as members. Read their discussion flow. So, find this link, not as total proof, but as reference that "shows the direction", that "something stinks".

Some users on that forum deny the crime and the perpetrators (usual story, such persons sell stories about picking flowers), but some of them say things that they know about that event, especially because that's the case of a Serb family killed by Serbs. Point is, rebelled Serbs know about this slaughter. Then have a look at this link. Famouse lier and desinformer, Savo Štrbac (minister in so-called RSK), has put the names of that Serb family killed by Serbs into a "list of Serbs killed by Croatian forces". Compare [8], [9] and [10] and personal data of that family on [11] (cites Croatian source).
Srpskadijaspora.info Here I see an heavy accusation in the "comment" section (which immediately questions/eliminates the reliabiliy of this source, to be clear). But, I've pointed this, because I see things that Serbs might know more. It may be evil-intended accusation of this person (site owners might easily see the IP of the person that posted that comment), but the content of the comment really strikes - and I've never seen such accusation against that person in Croatian media and sites.
Do you find this helpful? Sincerely, Kubura (talk) 22:04, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Links in English

Let me draw the attention of interested parties to this. Here's the link with translation in English.
Novi list Charged with murder of eight residents of Široka Kula near Gospić, and then acquitted, 60-years-old D.S. was released from custody after 11 months. "After a retrial, the district court in Gospić acquitted D.S: of war crimes charges for murder of eight inhabitants of Siroka Luka near Gospic. In 1994 Serdar was tried in absentia, found guilty of the same charges and sentenced to 15 years in prison...".
 "...none of 12 witnesses could confirm that S. was involved in maltreatment and murder of eight civilians in Siroka Kula in 1991, when the village was occupied by the Serb paramilitary forces.".
This means: that war crime did happened, that term is explicitly used in court's materials. Only, it cannot be confirmed that D.S. is the perpetrator, but the fact about brutally killed persons - stays.
I hope this'll help. Kubura (talk) 06:50, 3 April 2008 (UTC)